tommy1808
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:15 am

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
but people in retirement should of cause be excluded, after all they are dying out. Why give them a chance to salt the fields.....



So it's OK for the youth to salt it but not the people who spent their lives working and paying towards it?.


The youth is going to have to life of those fields, the old don´t care.

best regards
Thomas
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
:D
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu Dec 07, 2017 9:17 am

par13del wrote:
Does anyone consider that the folks who voted leave knew the economic effect but thought that having the ability to have English Politicians and Judges make laws /rules / regulations that govern their daily lives was a price they were willing to pay, or do we believe that the only persons complaining now about the economic hit are the Brexiters?



You are joking right? The UK government itself says it did not make the assessments and you expect the average voter from any country to have deep thinking and carefully consider what his vote will entail ?
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu Dec 07, 2017 1:48 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
UltimoTiger777 wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
but people in retirement should of cause be excluded, after all they are dying out. Why give them a chance to salt the fields.....



So it's OK for the youth to salt it but not the people who spent their lives working and paying towards it?.


The youth is going to have to life of those fields, the old don´t care.

best regards
Thomas


Well done on proving you're a troll.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu Dec 07, 2017 2:07 pm

Olddog wrote:
par13del wrote:
Does anyone consider that the folks who voted leave knew the economic effect but thought that having the ability to have English Politicians and Judges make laws /rules / regulations that govern their daily lives was a price they were willing to pay, or do we believe that the only persons complaining now about the economic hit are the Brexiters?



You are joking right? The UK government itself says it did not make the assessments and you expect the average voter from any country to have deep thinking and carefully consider what his vote will entail ?


I think for some voters, sure, they are willing to pay 10% o the annual income to become "free", some voters were taking in by the 350m a week to the NHS and that kind of rhetoric, so they bought into the story that this will economically be good for Brittain. Some didn't believe in a win for Brexit Some didn't know what they were voting for: google's top questions from the day after the referendum were: what is the EU(!).
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu Dec 07, 2017 3:14 pm

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
Well done on proving you're a troll.


from someone that thinks old people have the right to ruin the future while people having to live in that future for far, far longer preferably have no say whatsoever about that future, such a statement doesn´t bear much weight, if any.

It make total sense to exclude people close to reaching the life expectancy from any "forever decisions", and expand it into young ages as far as reasonable. The age of consent sets that reasonable limit, since that is obviously the age at which "forever decisions" can be made.

best regards
Thomas
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
:D
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu Dec 07, 2017 4:21 pm

I just don't get theses rules about voting age or who is able to vote changing every vote. In France you are allowed to vote since 18 to your death where ever you live providing you don't have a judicial condemnation forbidding you.
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu Dec 07, 2017 5:10 pm

Olddog wrote:
I just don't get theses rules about voting age or who is able to vote changing every vote. In France you are allowed to vote since 18 to your death where ever you live providing you don't have a judicial condemnation forbidding you.


Ahhhh but you're using logic. Tommy isn't.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Thu Dec 07, 2017 6:07 pm

I was thinking about the fact that british living outside UK were not allowed to vote in June referendum. Also I heart that for the Scottish vote voting age was extended to the 16 years old with a huge campaign warning that voting for independence was voting to be kicked outside EU ...
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:00 am

Olddog wrote:
You are joking right? The UK government itself says it did not make the assessments and you expect the average voter from any country to have deep thinking and carefully consider what his vote will entail ?

I think that proves that the TM government is not staffed with Brexiters, why do an assessment of something you have no intention of implementing?
What I do not understand is why not use the project fear documents which were written by the UK government and its public servants - the same individuals tasked with preparing this assessment - and had the blessings of the experts in both the EU and the UK
 
sierrakilo44
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:14 am

Olddog wrote:
I was thinking about the fact that british living outside UK were not allowed to vote in June referendum. Also I heart that for the Scottish vote voting age was extended to the 16 years old with a huge campaign warning that voting for independence was voting to be kicked outside EU ...


It's interesting to hear that British living outside the UK or I guess people who were travelling, or on a gap year etc (a large proportion who'd be in the EU) weren't allowed to vote. I think overwhelmingly they would have voted to Remain, in a high enough proportion that Remain would have won the vote. I find most people who live outside of their own country or travel are more globalist and less nationalistic in their outlook and would want the opportunity to live and work within the EU with ease. It's the types who remain within the UK (save the yearly trip to Magaluf) and complain that immigrants are "destroying their country" who would be more likely to vote leave.
 
olle
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:09 am

EU and UK seems to have agreed...

So what is the conclusion?

€ 55 Billion
EU and UK citizens protected in EU27 and UK
Irish border seems to be like was agreed a week ago, nut no solution described.

Is this closer to Remain or Leave a year ago?

Now thiss was the beginning of the end what canxpect from negiations during 2019?
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:37 am

If you keep in mind that phase 1 was supposed to be the easy one........
 
anstar
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:38 am

olle wrote:
EU and UK seems to have agreed...

So what is the conclusion?

€ 55 Billion
EU and UK citizens protected in EU27 and UK
Irish border seems to be like was agreed a week ago, nut no solution described.

Is this closer to Remain or Leave a year ago?

Now thiss was the beginning of the end what canxpect from negiations during 2019?


They still havent solved the Irish border issue - but kicked the can down the road. The whole things a mess.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:50 am

anstar wrote:
olle wrote:
EU and UK seems to have agreed...

So what is the conclusion?

€ 55 Billion
EU and UK citizens protected in EU27 and UK
Irish border seems to be like was agreed a week ago, nut no solution described.

Is this closer to Remain or Leave a year ago?

Now thiss was the beginning of the end what canxpect from negiations during 2019?


They still havent solved the Irish border issue - but kicked the can down the road. The whole things a mess.


For now it is ok, the next step needs to be taken.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
olle
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri Dec 08, 2017 8:52 am

The most simple negotiation in history?!?

Now EU play the game well... Let make the process S long as possible.

My guess;

Car industry to Slovenia.

Financial services between Paris and Frankfurt

It industry Germany and Scandinavia.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:17 am

olle wrote:
Car industry to Slovenia.

Financial services between Paris and Frankfurt

It industry Germany and Scandinavia.


The EU has pretty much no say as to where industries are going.

best regards
Thomas
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
:D
 
JJJ
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:19 am

olle wrote:
EU and UK seems to have agreed...

So what is the conclusion?

€ 55 Billion
EU and UK citizens protected in EU27 and UK
Irish border seems to be like was agreed a week ago, nut no solution described.


Of course, they still need to figure out how to square a circle.

On one side they have guaranteed to the Irish that there will be no hard border, on the other they have guaranteed the DUP that there will be no regulatory divergence between NI and the rest of the UK.

So on one swift blow they have ensured all of the UK will remain in the EU in everything but name only.

Thank you DUP, thank you Taoiseach Varadkar. Well played.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:55 am

Based on everything in the BBC article, yes, the UK has agreed to stay in the EU, financially strengthen the EU via the divorce bill (number to be determined), give up its rebate and whatever influence it had or believed it had in the EU.

Nothing has changed on the EU side and nothing was expected to change on the EU side, the entire UK will have to continue to accept what is required for access to the customs union which is necessary to eliminate a hard border in Ireland. Do not expect anyone to provide much details on what that exactly means until after agreements have been made in principle, or it will be derailed. Let's see if the previous EU mandate for all these to be written down in paper is met.

Interesting times ahead.
Last edited by par13del on Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:55 am

 
vc10
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:24 pm

I thought the remain group won the argument that any deal with the EU had to be approved by The British Parliament. Let us hpe this is true as it might turn around to bight the remainer group , but not if the weakling T . May is in power
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri Dec 08, 2017 1:45 pm

Wow there is a brutal opinion piece on the guardian:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -eu-brexit

Huge extract:

The announcement this morning that Britain and the EU are finally ready to start actual negotiations is welcome news for Europeans. Almost 18 months after the referendum, the Brits have done what every reality-based observer knew they would have to do eventually: they have buckled.

By giving in to each and every EU demand, the May government is showing that it is finally learning to behave like the junior partner it is. Brussels and EU member states are far too polite and constructive to say so out loud, but for the next decade or so the default position for Britain in its dealings with the EU is simple: you suck it up.

In spite of all the insults, blackmail, hostility and ineptitude, many in Europe still see the British as friends

A more realistic British attitude helps decrease the odds of a chaotic and deeply harmful Brexit. With the exception of Vladimir Putin and any disaster capitalists betting on a collapse of the British economy, this is more good news for all involved. But commentators this morning were quick to point out that the talks about when to start talks were always the easy part. As the European council president Donald Tusk said on Twitter this morning: “Breaking up is hard. But breaking up and building a new relationship is much harder.”

So far, EU member states have shown a degree of unity that is often described as “remarkable”. But how remarkable is it really to keep one’s ranks closed when all Britain does is talk to itself about itself, leaving it entirely unclear what kind of Brexit it intends to pursue? Now that the actual talks are about to begin, the May government will be forced to choose between the options for a future relationship that the EU is offering, from a “soft Brexit” where Britain loses all political influence in Brussels but remains a member in all but name, to a “hard Brexit” where Britain assumes the same status as Canada or Turkey, a so-called “third country” with or without some sort of free trade agreement.

On Friday morning, major European news outlets such as Le Figaro in France and Die Zeit in Germany did not even lead their online editions with the breakthrough in Brussels. This reflects just how less important Brexit is for Europeans. But as Britain’s preferences become clear this lack of interest may change and so might political tensions.

The truth is that Brexit is going to play out differently for different member states, and so unity may very well make way for hard bargaining and open conflict on what kind of options to offer Britain. Should the Brexit dream team in May’s government be foolish enough to try to resurrect the age-old British policy of dividing the continent by fomenting conflict, this process may turn very ugly. Especially so in light of the coming negotiations over the next seven-year EU budget (“multi-annual financial framework” in the poetic language of Brussels) and unprecedented animosity between Poland and Hungary on the one hand and many other EU members on the other.


Dutchy is it your article ? :P
 
vc10
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri Dec 08, 2017 2:45 pm

The EU has pretty much no say as to where industries are going.

best regards
Thomas[/quote]

That is not quite true as when Ford shut down their plant in Eastleigh [uk] where transit vans were produced they were lent 80 million euros to help relocate it to
Turkey , a country not even in the EU

http://www.dailyecho.co.uk/news/1002027 ... lose_ours/
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri Dec 08, 2017 3:47 pm

vc10 wrote:
That is not quite true as when Ford shut down their plant in Eastleigh [uk] where transit vans were produced they were lent 80 million euros to help relocate it to
Turkey , a country not even in the EU


So, when Ford decided to relocate to Turkey, they could make use of funding provided by the EU. At which point did the EU have a "say" in the matter? Aside of collectively, including an UK vote, deciding to have such a program. Since that is a consensus decision, you may just as well say the UK government paid Ford to remove jobs from the UK. In cases like that the EU only executes the wishes of its member nations.

best regards
Thomas
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
:D
 
vc10
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:06 pm

Tommy
Yes the EU had to approve the loan and the deal and what is the point of having this club if manufacturing is closed down in one country to relocate them to another country outside the EU with the resulting loss of 800 jobs in that EU country. I cold not see this happening in France or Germany where a factory is closed down so that their products can be made elsewhere especially outside of the tariff area
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri Dec 08, 2017 4:25 pm

Without the EU the UK will finally have control again in such matter.s
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:12 pm

Like if it did not have it all that time :)

It is not like if UK was not the main driving factor to add eastern member and trying to push Turkey in the EU to please their US masters....
 
tommy1808
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri Dec 08, 2017 7:38 pm

vc10 wrote:
Tommy
Yes the EU had to approve the loan and the deal and what is the point of having this club if manufacturing is closed down in one country to relocate them to another country outside the EU with the resulting loss of 800 jobs in that EU country. I cold not see this happening in France or Germany where a factory is closed down so that their products can be made elsewhere especially outside of the tariff area


Was that an political approval or a you-qualify-for-this-if-you-check all boxes kind of thing?
.
And 80 million was the amount of money Turkey got out of EU funding about every 6 weeks in that time frame. Ford probably just made the news, while others didn't.

Best regards
Thomas
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
:D
 
prebennorholm
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:21 pm

No border RoI - NI. And no red tape in Irish Sea. Great. That means no border to the EU. That means that the four pillars have already been accepted. That the UK for most practical things remain inside EU outer borders.

I just wonder if all hardliner brexitters know that? That the Norwegian model has already been chosen. At most the colour of some icing on the cake can be changed in order to call it a "UK deal", not "carbon copy Norwegian deal".

It also means that it should not be too difficult to agree over Gibraltar as well.

EU27 pays relocation costs of EU agencies currently placed in the UK. Removed from so called Divorse Bill. That's a little "untraditional" cost distribution, but well, the Continent will survive that. We have got worse surprises before.

The UK Pound traded today at a six months high. As of Friday afternoon it now lost only 17% of its value related to Euro since 23 months ago when Cameron announced the referendum. And it could easily recover even more on Monday morning. That is great news. It means that businesses on both sides of the Channel believe that something positive was initiated today.

But there are still many stumbling blocks out there. Interesting times ahead.

One thing certainly changed today: Brexit was in the news in many media also on the eastern side of the Channel.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
frmrCapCadet
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri Dec 08, 2017 10:49 pm

England may Brexit, but it is a pretty strange exit. As previous poster noted Gibraltar is solvable, the Republic of and North Ireland agreement will hold (a sincere bravo), the 4 pillars are secure. What's not to love. (at least from some of our points of view!) Great Britain may pay less into EU as it gets less, and I see that as a minus (as well as an Anglo-American influence on EU decisions).

Japan and the EU are about to ink a huge trade deal - and if Trump kill Nafta it will be Asia, Mexico, Canada, Great Britain, and Europe against the US and Russia. I can tell you which alliance I would like to see the US in (hint - it ain't Russia - though I wish them well too).
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
prebennorholm
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Fri Dec 08, 2017 11:22 pm

vc10 wrote:
That is not quite true as when Ford shut down their plant in Eastleigh [uk] where transit vans were produced they were lent 80 million euros to help relocate it to Turkey , a country not even in the EU

Dear vc10, that is a very good example of how Farage loved to simplify things in order to get attention.

Ford used to have two Transit Van final assembly plants, Turkey (170,000/yr) and Southhampton (30,000/yr). They wanted to reduce that to one, where the costs were lower, that was Turkey.

What was the alternative? It might well have been to quit this tiny niche production altogether in Europe? Or at least reduce production to what Turkey could handle without new investments?

Building a car is a lot more than final assembly and paint. There are engines to be produced, transmissions, ABS brakes, and thousands of small or large components including headlamps from China.

If Ford had quit or reduced Transit production (to the benefit of Toyota Hiace etc.), what would that mean for engine or tranny production in Britain or other EU countries? I don't know, but that's the sort of things which one must know to be able to make such business decisions. Farage didn't even try to get such knowledge. He had an agenda and a big mouth, and absolutely nothing more. That's way too little to run an EU, a country, a car factory, or a village bakery.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
vc10
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sat Dec 09, 2017 9:42 am

No one is arguing about the commercial viability or not of Ford plants, but what I am complaining about is that an EU investment bank lent Ford £80 million to help them move their Transit plant, from an EU country with the loss of 500 jobs, to a non EU country so that that company could then export them back into the EU. I say again I can not remember when a German or French factory was closed down so that it's production could be moved outside the EU and then allow it to re export back into the EU. Surely Ford would have to pay large import duties on every vehicle exported to the EU as Turkey is not a member,
and as the UK has been reminded time after time in the last 18 months unless you are in then your goods will carry a large duty

No this deal was done for pure political reason to encourage Turkey to reform for entry into the EU . Ford is a commercial company and if it wanted to relocate it's production to Turkey then if they are using their own money so be it ,but the EU should not be lending them the money to do it
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:11 am

You may want to remember that the UK is part of that bank. It is not an anonymous EU entity.
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:19 am

vc10 wrote:
No this deal was done for pure political reason to encourage Turkey to reform for entry into the EU . Ford is a commercial company and if it wanted to relocate it's production to Turkey then if they are using their own money so be it ,but the EU should not be lending them the money to do it


If you have two options as commercial organsisation. Number one being moving a plant to a certain place and don't get 80mln in subsidies and numer two moving the same plant to the same place and getting 80mln. What would you do? Moreover, the purpose of the European Investment Bank is being a vehicle which the European Union uses to get to its policy goals. It's sole purpose is therefore to invest in places where it meets the policy goals of the EU. This means that if a project meets the criteria set by the EIB and there is still money left, you may be getting subsidies. Supporting multinationals in the EU is not a policy goal of the EU. Improving relations with non-EU countries is a policy goal (when why EIB invests in Russia, Turkey and many other non-EU countries).

BTW the majority of the money is spend in the EU. Only a small portiion goes to countries outside the EU.
 
vc10
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sat Dec 09, 2017 11:41 am

Li
You do not seem to understand that whist it is the European bank task to encourage friendly relations with other countries it should not do it at the expense of peoples jobs within the EU. If Ford was moving tit's plant to another EU country then perhaps you could understand it , but that was not the case

olddog
Yes the UK has voting rights in this bank but no veto so the deal could have been agreed without the UK consent, but our contribution was still £10 million pounds to put 500 of our citizens out of work
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sat Dec 09, 2017 12:41 pm

Turkey is in a customs union with the EU, that applies to many products. Plenty of cars, including French ones, are made there. For example my Renault Clio IV has 70% chance to have been made there.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
vc10
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sat Dec 09, 2017 1:47 pm

Aesma Thanks for that information , now tell me how many Renault or Fiat plants were closed down for this to happen
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sat Dec 09, 2017 2:47 pm

French car production in France dropped millions, plenty of plants closed. I think in the last decade UK car production went way up and might have passed France or come close.

Personally I think there is a real problem with Turkey, and even EU members like Poland and Hungary (and Romania). One of the reasons we give these countries money and investment is with the understanding that they'll come closer to us socially and politically. If they want to be ruled by autocratic leaders and abuse human rights, we shouldn't be helping that in any way. Sure build cars there for local production, but not for importation into our countries.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
prebennorholm
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sat Dec 09, 2017 4:12 pm

vc10 wrote:
Aesma Thanks for that information , now tell me how many Renault or Fiat plants were closed down for this to happen

Dear vc10, where yuor chairn drops off, that's when you assume that no loan to Ford Turkey would have saved the Southampton plant with final assembly of 30,000 Transit Vans/yr.

Originally Ford Transits were assembled in Cologne, West Germany and in Southampton. For Ford to make ends meet producing the Transits they had to find cheaper places to make them. It was a gradual process. First went Cologne, then Southampton.

What the alternative to the cheap loan to Ford would have been, we can only guess about. But it could be Ford choosing to not upgrade the Turkey plant, close down the Southampton plant and reduce engine/tranny etc. production in Britain and the EU accordingly. It could also be to give up the Transit model altogether and reduce engine/tranny production even more for the benefit to Japanese and Korean competitors.

Believe me, final assembly of very basic cars in limited numbers is never again going to happen in Western Europe. We shall be happy that upmarket cars and large trucks still earn us butter on our bread.

Final assembly of very basic cars in Western Europe, that will in the future only happen when we are talking very sophisticated and highly automated plants with output counted in the millions/yr.

In order to judge such EIB decisions you need to do your homework in an orderly way, or trust that the EIB has done it for you. That was way too complicated for Farage, but that's only a problem for him, and for those who listened to him.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
LJ
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sat Dec 09, 2017 6:39 pm

vc10 wrote:
Li
You do not seem to understand that whist it is the European bank task to encourage friendly relations with other countries it should not do it at the expense of peoples jobs within the EU. If Ford was moving tit's plant to another EU country then perhaps you could understand it , but that was not the case


I don't need to understand this as this is how it works in politics. You may not like it (and thus ensure your MEP changes the rules), but it's easy to understand that a certain policy has some negative effects. Basically the majority of regulation or policies create loopholes or negative effects which sometimes don't make sense. However, it's virtually impossible to pre-empt every loophole or negative effect. In the end it's always a trade-off between the benefit of a certain policy and the negative effect of the policy. Usually this trade-off is determined of how vocal the opposition is (or expected to be) and how big the chances are that re-election is in jeopordy.

In this case Ford probably complied with all pre-conditions to get the grant and thus there is no reason not to give it (or else it would discriminate). The fact that it moved a plant is not relevant as this is not a reason why the grant could be denied. I agree, it doesn't seem to make sense but that's the rule. Politicians can change it, but I doubt many EU citizens will care about the investments the EIB makes (if they even know that the EIB exists and what it does).
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun Dec 10, 2017 3:05 pm

And back to square one:

Brexit: May's EU deal not binding, says David Davis


http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-42298971

So non-binding, why agree to move to the next phase?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun Dec 10, 2017 4:12 pm

I think that every monday, Barnier ask his team to tell him what bullshit DD said on sunday to start the week with a good laugh :)
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:07 pm

Well, based on the wording put out in public, if there is no deal on no hard border on the island of Ireland, the entire UK will continue to have regulatory alignment with the EU, now as EU experts, does that not mean 4 pillars and the UK remaining in the EU?

Something else is amiss here, both Grove and Boris know that is the case and both supposedly agreed to this deal, either they are now remainers and have abandoned Brexit or ..............no idea what, but the wording on the Irish deal give them the ultimate power of whether the UK leaves or not.
I think most are waiting to see the ink on this document, I suspect it will not go down well all over the nation's, all of them.
 
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par13del
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun Dec 10, 2017 7:10 pm

On the EU side, they are already saying that the UK cannot have a special deal because other non-EU nations who negotiated their deals in good faith now see this as preferential treatment and say it should not stand, so my question. What exactly is the special form of relationship that the EU wanted the UK to put forth in their negotiations if they knew it could not pass muster, sounds as if all sides have been going around the mulberry bush.
One thing is certain, the amount of the divorce bill will pass muster and stand the test of time.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Sun Dec 10, 2017 11:21 pm

Reading that BBC article, you feel nothing has changed. The UK has no clear position, the government is saying "yes" to everybody, even though some of these positions contradict each other...
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:35 am

Well, the UK government is going to finally have a meeting to decide what the brexit goal is.... Very strange to do it now and not 18 months ago!
 
blrsea
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:51 am

If there isn't going to be a hard border between Ireland and N Ireland, how can they stop free movement of people/goods between EU and UK? Is there going to be immigration/custom checkposts between N Ireland and mainland UK then?
 
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seahawk
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon Dec 11, 2017 6:57 am

Sure, like any hard border.
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:10 am

blrsea wrote:
If there isn't going to be a hard border between Ireland and N Ireland, how can they stop free movement of people/goods between EU and UK? Is there going to be immigration/custom checkposts between N Ireland and mainland UK then?


Read:

At the very least, her stupidity in rejecting the Efta/EEA option has confronted us with a situation far, far worse, while prolonging the Brexit agony for another two years. And when those two years are over, all the problems attendant on the UK becoming a third country will re-emerge.

For the moment though, we have the bizarre situation where the Irish media are providing better coverage of the issues that the UK equivalents, with the Irish Times telling us that EU Brexit negotiators have expressed doubts about the feasibility of the UK's pledge to avoid a hard Border in Ireland after Brexit.

European Commission officials, we are told, are saying the UK's determination to leave the single market and the customs union "seems hard to reconcile" with its promise to avoid a hard Border in Ireland.

That may well go down as the understatement of the century, but it does give some hint of the storm to come as the "bad Friday agreement" begins to unravel. Then, as Mr Blair never said, things can only get worse.


From http://eureferendum.com/blogview.aspx?b ... qus_thread
 
Olddog
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:52 am

Found a nice post on the guardian today in the comments, and I think it nails perfectly the EU feelings and in line with the thread title:

Hermann Reiner

The UK was never real a part of the EU, joined in 1973, renegotiated the treaty in 1974, first referendum to leave in 1975, then special deals every new step in the evolution of the EU. Did not join the Schengen agreement, did not adapt the Euro.
Britain's membership of the EU has contained a number of opt-outs and exemptions only made possible by the EU's flexibility. "Since the UK joined the EU, it has enjoyed a bespoke form of membership that is unique. An opt-out from the euro, but banker to the Eurozone. An opt-out from Schengen, but access to the security databases linked to it. A blanket opt-out from Justice and Home Affairs, with the possibility to opt back into the most effective crime-fighting measures. The list goes on."
The politicians never talked positive about the EU, the was always the negative talk about anything the EU did. ................ the UK should have been kicked out of the EU some 20 years ago, for constantly interfering with the EU goals for a closer Union. So UK, please leave and make it fast. You invoked article and now get the hell out.
Now the UK politicians cannot even make up their mind about article 50. And your High Court tells you to ask parliament, where 70 % of the members are for remain.
Frankly you could not even have the qualified negotiators of how to leave the EU, as all trade negations were done by the EU for the last 40 years. And you cannot financially afford to leave the EU. All multinational companies lured to the UK with the promise to a free market of the EU of 500 mil will want to have similar deals that was promised already to Nissan, these company will blackmail the UK government with Theresa May at his head. Tariff compensation would be illegal under WTO and EU rules, and it would not be acceptable to Nissan's competitors on the continent. Something else must have been offered.
When the European economy was booming in the 60’s and 70’s the UK was in the middle age. Only when you joined the EU to become a more modern society. British cars were the joke and laughter of the world.
I used to live in London in 1973/4, when the coal miners went on strike, then the dockworkers, so no electricity for several month, stores were open for 6 hours only, no elevators, no escalators running, no cash registers working, rolling brownouts when you took the bus home in evening. TV off at 9:30 pm to save electricity for hospitals. Pubs closed at 9 pm. Electricity in my room, one had to put a shilling into the meter, with 6-shilling max. No change and you would sit in the dark.
Go back to your salted butter, homemade beer and wine, and cook your freeze dried packaged foods.
And instead of Spain please visit Guernsey and Jersey, maybe Brighton.
Once some half million of your EU workforce will leave, you can replace them with cheap labor from the old Commonwealth, like you had done in the 60's.

History
UK: Do what we want or we leave.
EU: What do you want?
UK: We don't want to be in the Euro.
EU: Done.
UK: But we want the right to do Euro clearing in London.
EU: Done.
UK: We want a rebate.
EU: Done.
UK: We don't want to be part of Schengen.
EU: Done.
UK: We want to expand the EU to the eastern European countries.
EU: Done.
UK: And we want Turkey to join.
EU: Eh...not sure about that one...I guess we can talk about this, depending on how Turkey develops....
UK: And we want extra rules for immigration because of all of those Eastern Europeans coming to us.
EU: But you wanted this. And you don't even use the options you already have to control immigration.
UK: Otherwise we leave!
EU: Okay, if you want to. There is nothing more we can give you!
UK: You cause too much immigration! And you want Turkey to join! We have voted to leave.
EU: Yes, we noticed. Well, you know the rules, no trade negotiations until you trigger article 50 and then we first need to talk about how we entangle the UK from the EU. Than we can talk about trade.
UK: We need some time to discuss the.
EU: We aren't in any hurry.
UK: We have now triggered article 50.
EU: Great so now we can talk about the divorce.
UK: But we want to talk about trade.
EU: First we need to clear up a number of important issues. So what is your suggestion?
UK: ------
EU: How about this?
UK: No, totally inacceptable. What we want is out cake and eat it too.
EU: That is impossible.
UK: Go whistle.
EU: Ticktock.
UK: We have talked. We want a transitional period or we wont get done.
EU: Well, we might if you don't delay all the time...but okay, provided that we made some progress. So what is you suggestion.
UK: We want all the advantage of the single market and the customs union while following our own standards and no free movement.
EU: That is impossible.
UK: YOU ARE BLACKMAILING US!!!!!
Last edited by Olddog on Mon Dec 11, 2017 8:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Brexit - EU position

Mon Dec 11, 2017 7:57 am

That perfectly describes my feelings about it.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!

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