Brexit - EU position

par13del · Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:52 pm

Olddog wrote:
[*] The Irish border will be closed

I doubt that. I guess they will finally make a border in the sea, between UK or NI or between RoI and EU.

I would love to know how the supporters of no hard border will work that one out.
Based on my limited knowledge:
A border in the sea means leaving NI in the EU, to be in the Common Market they would have to accept all EU core mandates which some think is the same as being in the EU, would the UK agree to the split, and if they do, would NI be elevated to a independent country, or made a protectorate of the EU (does such exist) and would those in NI agree?
If not a independent country or protectorate, do they get merged into one nation with the south and would the north agree to fall under Catholic control?

Everyone seems to think a border will bring back the "troubles" but the prospects of anything else also seems to be just as dire. Based on how the EU is made up, it is not just about paying tariffs, the EU is also about how goods are manufactured and crops grown, so how do they avoid a hard border?

BobPatterson · Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:10 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Off topic, but I'll answer: about 3.000 high paying job and a bit of taxes revenue, however, the state "loses" much more from Dutch companies going to tax havens as well.

The public opinion is turning on these letterbox companies and so is it within the EU. Long way but it is coming.

I don't see why you consider if off topic to ask questions about an issue about which you have previously commented.

What do these 3,000 people do. For whom do they work?

How much is a "bit" of tax revenue? What is it a tax upon?

Thanks for enlightening.

Dutchy · Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:22 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Off topic, but I'll answer: about 3.000 high paying job and a bit of taxes revenue, however, the state "loses" much more from Dutch companies going to tax havens as well.

The public opinion is turning on these letterbox companies and so is it within the EU. Long way but it is coming.

I don't see why you consider if off topic to ask questions about an issue about which you have previously commented.

What do these 3,000 people do. For whom do they work?

How much is a "bit" of tax revenue? What is it a tax upon?

Thanks for enlightening.

Off Topic because it is about Brexit, not taxation in The Netherlands.

What do these people do? What do you think? (Tax)Lawyers, accountants, Notaries, fiscal advisors, administrators etc. Their clients: every big corporations in the world.

Tax revenue: 3bn: https://www.volkskrant.nl/archief/briev ... ~a3457075/

Regular taxation.

BobPatterson · Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:39 pm

Dutchy wrote:
What do these people do? What do you think? (Tax)Lawyers, accountants, Notaries, fiscal advisors, administrators etc. Their clients: every big corporations in the world.

Tax revenue: 3bn: https://www.volkskrant.nl/archief/briev ... ~a3457075/

Regular taxation.

Thank you for posting that link. It reads well in Google translation to English and gives good insight into the situation.

It also makes it appear that the benefits to the Netherlands might be greater than you suggested.

Dutchy · Sun Nov 19, 2017 8:52 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
What do these people do? What do you think? (Tax)Lawyers, accountants, Notaries, fiscal advisors, administrators etc. Their clients: every big corporations in the world.

Tax revenue: 3bn: https://www.volkskrant.nl/archief/briev ... ~a3457075/

Regular taxation.

Thank you for posting that link. It reads well in Google translation to English and gives good insight into the situation.

It also makes it appear that the benefits to the Netherlands might be greater than you suggested.

What did I suggest and what is the greater benifit for the Netherlands?

Olddog · Mon Nov 20, 2017 3:56 pm

http://cer.eu/in-the-press/speech-miche ... conference

Interesting news today.

Aesma · Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:19 pm

par13del wrote:
We know most in the UK rejected the pay dues and live / trade by EU rules without representation at the rule making table, they have also said no ECJ, all of which are required for trade within the Common Market, is there some other way to access without those precedents? I cannot believe the EU is willing to sacrifice or even negotiate its principles for a minor trading partner in the grand scheme, this is also the question for those in the UK talking about soft exit and transition period.

The UK journalist asked if it wasn't time for concessions to a Dutch, expecting a diplomatic response. Instead the Dutch said "your damn politicians are either crazy or dumb".

There is no mention of the EU offering any concession.

par13del · Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:07 pm

...and there can be none as the 4 pillars are inviolate, hence the question on what is the Soft Brexit that is continually being talked about?
My recent take is:
1. Transition period is to allow re-education to allow another vote
2. The UK will pay the EU to allow them to settle debts, pensions, complete projects, in essence put the EU on a better financial foot.
3. The UK will re-join the EU at the end of the transition period as a greatly diminished member, no rebates and much less influence
4. All will be well in the UK as it will return to Labour wanting to Nationalize the economy and the Tories still fighting among themselves.

Olddog · Mon Nov 20, 2017 6:46 pm

So Amsterdam wins EMA and Paris wins EBA. Good news.

par13del · Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:08 pm

Now the debate comes on how much the UK will pay to relocate those agencies, earlier in this thread the debate was who should pay, one line of thought was that since the UK elected to leave they should bear the cost of relocation.
Wonder if that is included in the 53 billion now being talked about?

UltimoTiger777 · Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:00 pm

So since Angela is unable to form a government, does that mean she has no authority to take part in Brexit talks?

I mean that's the logic remain voters and EU supporters use about May so what's good for the Goose.........

par13del · Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:17 pm

Ahh, but now you see that the EU as an organization has 26 other members who are united in the goals and aims of the EU along with all the local politicians, truly strong and stable, not like the UK version.

Dutchy · Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:20 pm

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
So since Angela is unable to form a government, does that mean she has no authority to take part in Brexit talks?

I mean that's the logic remain voters and EU supporters use about May so what's good for the Goose.........

EU is the one whom do these talks, not Germany. In the end, the German parliament must ratify the agreement. But indeed that is not a good thing, it doesn't help.

Dutchy · Mon Nov 20, 2017 10:21 pm

Olddog wrote:
So Amsterdam wins EMA and Paris wins EBA. Good news.

Shame it came to that.

prebennorholm · Tue Nov 21, 2017 12:25 am

Dutchy wrote:
Olddog wrote:
So Amsterdam wins EMA and Paris wins EBA. Good news.

Shame it came to that.

Dear Dutchy, please explain. Why a shame? Is there anything wrong with Paris and Amsterdam? Did you have better alternatives?

Both are currently placed in London, and the UK people voted to get rid of them.

Dutchy · Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:59 am

prebennorholm wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Olddog wrote:
So Amsterdam wins EMA and Paris wins EBA. Good news.

Shame it came to that.

Dear Dutchy, please explain. Why a shame? Is there anything wrong with Paris and Amsterdam? Did you have better alternatives?

Both are currently placed in London, and the UK people voted to get rid of them.

Yup, London. I understand all, but still, it is a shame that it ended in a Brexit. Still in morning for losing our British friends.

Olddog · Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:42 am

You are still mourning after 18 months?

For me, theses choices means that the EU 27 feels the need to go back to the founding members. The newest members will have to demonstrate a bit more they want to really build the EU and not just an easy access to the h(m)oney pot.

L410Turbolet · Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:09 am

Olddog wrote:
The newest members will have to demonstrate a bit more they want to really build the EU and not just an easy access to the h(m)oney pot.

You mean "federal" EU as a projection of French imperial delusions paid for by German guilt money? Not sure too many will subscribe for that.

As far as the EBA award to the city of eternal state of emergency... What a joke.

vc10 · Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:38 am

I have dipped into this topic now and then but could some of you knowledgeable Europeans tell me where I can find the document which explains exactly what this £53 billion demanded by the EU is for.

JJJ · Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:41 am

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
So since Angela is unable to form a government, does that mean she has no authority to take part in Brexit talks?.

It's fine, she's not part of the talks.

JJJ · Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:46 am

vc10 wrote:
I have dipped into this topic now and then but could some of you knowledgeable Europeans tell me where I can find the document which explains exactly what this £53 billion demanded by the EU is for.

https://ec.europa.eu/commission/sites/b ... t_en_1.pdf

It was published in June, you will find plenty of articles around those dates that translate legalese to English. Like this politico piece:

https://www.politico.eu/article/eu-clar ... vid-davis/

Dano1977 · Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:51 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
Olddog wrote:
The newest members will have to demonstrate a bit more they want to really build the EU and not just an easy access to the h(m)oney pot.

You mean "federal" EU as a projection of French imperial delusions paid for by German guilt money? Not sure too many will subscribe for that.

As far as the EBA award to the city of eternal state of emergency... What a joke.

Perhaps now France will give up Strasbourg Parliament building and save that waste of money on the two parliament building system.

Probably not, because spending almost £1billion during the seven year budget cycle is better than not spending it on "National Pride"

Olddog · Tue Nov 21, 2017 10:46 am

L410Turbolet wrote:
As far as the EBA award to the city of eternal state of emergency... What a joke.

Firstly, the emergency state ended, secondly as France is the country that had the most terrorists attacks, you can guess how much we care for your opinion ?

Dutchy · Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:08 am

Olddog wrote:
You are still mourning after 18 months?

Yup, I feel like a cousin says goodbye to the rest of the family.

Dutchy · Tue Nov 21, 2017 11:10 am

Dano1977 wrote:
Perhaps now France will give up Strasbourg Parliament building and save that waste of money on the two parliament building system.

Hopefully, nobody wants it other than some of the French, but I guess not, then this institution should have gone to Strassborgh to compensate for the job loss.

vc10 · Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:00 pm

JJJ
Thanks for your reply 1121 and the references which clear up at least to some degree what the EU is asking the UK to pay. However this is their interpretation . , as to what the UK owes [60 billion euros] , which differs to what the UK believes it owes.{ 20 billion euros} Now with any thing like this the final sum is open for discussion rather than a demand by Barnier and his team.,as if they have a god given wright to be correct.

UltimoTiger777 · Tue Nov 21, 2017 1:34 pm

L410Turbolet wrote:
You mean "federal" EU as a projection of French imperial delusions paid for by German guilt money? Not sure too many will subscribe for that.

As far as the EBA award to the city of eternal state of emergency... What a joke.

frmrCapCadet · Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:17 pm

While a-netters agree that a modern jet plane is about the most complex* object humans have ever made, many don't take note that the complexity of modern governments and treaties and agreements between them are magnitudes more complex. There unfortunately for England and the world is little evidence that the Tory party has any real plan to deal with that complexity. We are talking about tens, if not hundreds of thousands of specialists negotiating all of these things. And there is no agreement even now about the shape of the exit. The clock is ticking.

*much of that complexity is software, specs, regulations etc.

par13del · Tue Nov 21, 2017 3:22 pm

vc10 wrote:
JJJ
Thanks for your reply 1121 and the references which clear up at least to some degree what the EU is asking the UK to pay. However this is their interpretation . , as to what the UK owes [60 billion euros] , which differs to what the UK believes it owes.{ 20 billion euros} Now with any thing like this the final sum is open for discussion rather than a demand by Barnier and his team.,as if they have a god given wright to be correct.

What we need to see is the line by line rebuttal that the UK provided to the EU showing that they owed nothing.
To add additional clarification, the 20 billion the PM is offering has nothing to do with the EU budget contribution or even the so called prorated amount that some in the UK think should be paid as 2019 the date of leave is not the end of the EU multi-year budget cycle, the money is purely a payment to get trade negotiations started, or the official term is a Divorce Bill.

par13del · Tue Nov 21, 2017 4:19 pm

frmrCapCadet wrote:
*much of that complexity is software, specs, regulations etc.

...however, if the UK actually leaves the EU it would be much less complicated, as the UK software would no longer have to meet or match the EU standards, the only items needing to match standards would be goods and services, and even those especially services like financial services may not have to be 100%, after all, as a third country, the UK like all other non-EU countries who do business with the EU are expected to have their own standards which either party accepts or rejects. As mentioned in this thread, the EU is more than just trade in goods, they also got to the extent of ensuring how the goods are grown, manufactured etc etc some of which was behind the drive for leaving the EU, so if you are going to continue to produce your goods, services and deliver them according to EU standards there will be no cost savings in which case why leave the EU?

Audit companies should be in high demand as usually what is needed is to be able to track items from end to end, those already exist so if they offer the service they will have to beef up their resources.

tommy1808 · Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:38 pm

par13del wrote:
after all, as a third country, the UK like all other non-EU countries who do business with the EU are expected to have their own standards

That is just theory, in practice pretty much all worldwide standards are so close to CE or FCC, that a device with either certificate will pass local standards.
China is starting to get a bit more serious about CCC, but you can still export many goods into China with just CE or just FCC.
Either one plus CB .... haven't had a country yet you couldn't export into with that, even into someone a bit picky about local certification like Russia. Add UL and certification will never be a show stopper.*

There is a very active undertaking to harmonise standards worldwide under the CB scheme, which is largely modelled on guess what, FCC and CE. Those two are also very close.

So, in a sense the UK can only have own standards that are identical with CE/FCC regulations. Basically the UK opted to have a wholly own standard setting and certification infrastructure, pricy stuff, for having much the same standards as anybody else.

Best regards
Thomas

*there are areas in which norms do divert, you can't build a car in identical versions to be sold in the US and the EU yet, but even those are in the process of harmonising, though slowly. No point having your own set of those either.

vc10 · Tue Nov 21, 2017 5:57 pm

par13del wrote:
vc10 wrote:
JJJ
What we need to see is the line by line rebuttal that the UK provided to the EU showing that they owed nothing.
To add additional clarification, the 20 billion the PM is offering has nothing to do with the EU budget contribution or even the so called prorated amount that some in the UK think should be paid as 2019 the date of leave is not the end of the EU multi-year budget cycle, the money is purely a payment to get trade negotiations started, or the official term is a Divorce Bill.

Now as I see it

1] The UK will leave the EU in 2019 and up to that point we are still members of the EU and will still pay our dues as a member of the EU

2] The EU budget , which we signed up to, runs to 2021 and so the UK will still be required to pay its agreed share of that budget

3] There are other cost which the EU says are our responsibility to continue after after we leave and even after 2021, which is open for debate

4] Now the UK states that there are asserts in the EU which the UK contributed to but as a non member will not be able to use so the UK should be re payed our
contribution or at least in part

5] From figures for 2015 the net contributions of the UK to the EU was 8.6 billion,so two years contribution 2019/2021 cannot be more than 17.2 billion, which is what the
UK would be obliged to pay or perhaps we could call this 20 billion. Now offset our responsibilities for the rest with our value of assets and you can see that 20 billion
seems quite fair

, If you think that the 20 billion that has been offered is nothing to do with this , but is just a bribe to get trade talks started I think you are slightly deluded

par13del · Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:06 pm

vc10 wrote:
, If you think that the 20 billion that has been offered is nothing to do with this , but is just a bribe to get trade talks started I think you are slightly deluded

Not what I think but what is being said, based on your figures ( thoughts) how does that 20 billion get doubled to 40 by the PM and her cabinet, where are they getting those figures from, and how does the EU get to their figure of 100 billion if all one has to do is to look at the EU budget and the UK contribution, especially since there are those on the negotiation team who say nothing is owed?
The difference is vast from zero to 100 billion, and this should be simple for the UK to work out since they have been under austerity for a number of years to get to a balance budget, they have been counting pennies as a country for a number of years.

par13del · Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:11 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
There is a very active undertaking to harmonise standards worldwide under the CB scheme, which is largely modelled on guess what, FCC and CE. Those two are also very close.

However, as you yourself have said earlier in this thread, the EU is more than just a trade block, to prevent war you have also integrated your trade rules and regulations into your way of life via laws etc etc etc, so not just a crop but which land it is grown on and how it is grown, processed etc etc, a number of other countries do not do that on the scale that it is done in the EU. In some countries it is regarded as additional red tape which cost business houses additional funds, in others it is accepted as a socially accepted cost to bear and all sides fight over it all day.

tommy1808 · Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:24 pm

par13del wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
There is a very active undertaking to harmonise standards worldwide under the CB scheme, which is largely modelled on guess what, FCC and CE. Those two are also very close.

However, as you yourself have said earlier in this thread, the EU is more than just a trade block, to prevent war you have also integrated your trade rules and regulations into your way of life via laws etc etc etc, so not just a crop but which land it is grown on and how it is grown, processed etc etc, a number of other countries do not do that on the scale that it is done in the EU. In some countries it is regarded as additional red tape which cost business houses additional funds, in others it is accepted as a socially accepted cost to bear and all sides fight over it all day.

Yay, you can have more potentially toxic chemicals in your food and electrocute yourself more easily with household appliances. Thank you brexit!

Nest regards
Thomas

Olddog · Tue Nov 21, 2017 6:47 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ls-housing

If you want to argue about money

My opinion is that money talk is a distraction from the real issue that is the Ireland border.

par13del · Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:05 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Yay, you can have more potentially toxic chemicals in your food and electrocute yourself more easily with household appliances. Thank you brexit!

Nest regards
Thomas

If you look at it that simply, I wish the Remainer's in the UK would look at it the same way, they seem to want to have a multi year transition period where they have to live and work under EU rules AFTER Brexit, go figure.

UltimoTiger777 · Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:43 pm

tommy1808 wrote:

Yay, you can have more potentially toxic chemicals in your food and electrocute yourself more easily with household appliances. Thank you brexit!

Nest regards
Thomas

Remember those tainted eggs coming from the continent?

Oh dear.

Olddog wrote:
My opinion is that money talk is a distraction from the real issue that is the Ireland border.

No, it's about the money. Especially given how much of a financial contribution we make.

Although it is annoying isn't it when a small country of a few million gets to hold things up. Bit like when Ireland left the UK.

par13del · Tue Nov 21, 2017 7:46 pm

Olddog wrote:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/nov/21/money-theresa-may-brexit-bill-80bn-nhs-schools-housing

If you want to argue about money

My opinion is that money talk is a distraction from the real issue that is the Ireland border.

Like how the economy will fall off a cliff without the EU, somehow they were never able to convince the voters about that prior to the vote but they will for them to cough up 80 billion, all to work out a trade deal?
The more you look at it it does appear as if WTO as the baseline would be much simpler, it immediately eliminates all the other political and social issues that the EU has integrated into the trade rules for internal customers.

As for Ireland, even if the UK decides to pay a premium on tariffs on inter-Ireland trade to avoid a physical border, it does not address the movement of people.
If the recent articles about the Irish PM getting involved to force the UK's hand are accurate, they will be putting themselves in a more direct role if things fall apart, however that happens. I can't believe that the Irish PM believes that Brexit can be used to unite the island. Stranger things have happened but.....I am sceptical.

LJ · Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:28 pm

Dano1977"Perhaps now France will give up Strasbourg Parliament building and save that waste of money on the two parliament building system.

Probably not, because spending almost £1billion during the seven year budget cycle is better than not spending it on "National Pride"[/quote]

Some EU MPs offered France a deal: both EMA and EBA in exchange of giving up Strassbourg....and they didn't take it.

[quote="L410Turbolet wrote:
As far as the EBA award to the city of eternal state of emergency... What a joke.

It isn't a secret that the EU doesn't want both ECB and EBA to be in the same city. Moreover, let's be real, where do you want to be as banker? Not in Warsaw or Prague.

par13del · Tue Nov 21, 2017 8:35 pm

I know its the Daily Mail, but on the Irish border issue, how can NI stay in the Customs Union, living and working under ECJ laws, paying due etc while the rest of the UK is not...I only see that working if NI becomes an independent country or some other special consideration is made, in which case, the Scots are going to be up in arms since the EU already ditched their request..so far I have not seen the Irish PM call for a unification of north and south, that would be much much simpler.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... order.html

Dutchy · Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:15 am

So there is a new 'deadline' set. The meeting of December 4th will be crucial to deciding to move to the next phase. On Dutch radio it is said that May's government is willing to go to 40bn (from 20bn) to settle the bill, EU is said to be at 60bn, so they are closing in on that, but no decision has been reached on the border between Ireland and Northern Ireland.

We'll see if this deadline is reached and if we can move to the next phase of negotiation of a trade agreement. If this deadline is passed, then there will be a real-time constrained to finish before the Brexit dead-line.

In the meantime in Britain, May's government seem to propose a tax bill with no surprises in there, no new policies, nothing controversial in a remote way. How much authority has May left with the British people? And will she see these Brexit deals threw or will she be replaced at one point (snap elections or not).

Olddog · Wed Nov 22, 2017 9:33 am

I think that the talks will stall as Davis just said he will do nothing about the border until the trade talks, so total deadlock.

Dutchy · Wed Nov 22, 2017 10:12 am

Olddog wrote:
I think that the talks will stall as Davis just said he will do nothing about the border until the trade talks, so total deadlock.

Negotiation tactics, still erroneous thinking he is doing this from a position of strength. Time for some realism on both sides. Also in the news, the average purchasing power of a British household went down with € 500 because of the exchange rate between the pound and the Euro, namely because of foot (50% is imported from the EU).

JJJ · Wed Nov 22, 2017 11:55 am

par13del wrote:
vc10 wrote:
JJJ
Thanks for your reply 1121 and the references which clear up at least to some degree what the EU is asking the UK to pay.

No need for that. The UK position is simple "we won't be in the EU so there's no legal way for the EU to make us pay"

Which is true, the enforcement mechanisms lie within the EU, once you're out there's no legal imperative for the UK to pay.

The EU reply has simply wished the UK well if they want to walk without a deal. That's the definition of leverage.

par13del · Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:57 pm

Dutchy wrote:
In the meantime in Britain, May's government seem to propose a tax bill with no surprises in there, no new policies, nothing controversial in a remote way. How much authority has May left with the British people? And will she see these Brexit deals threw or will she be replaced at one point (snap elections or not).

After years of austerity and needing funds to pay for NHS, Schools, Housing, etc etc etc and the clamour Labour created in the last election of "everything" being free and paid for by government, something has to give, especially if they are at the same time offering up billions to the EU in a divorce bill, to some degree, the Tory Government is now making the bus sign more relevant that it was during the referendum campaign, if they have billions they should have been able to find funds for NHS.

par13del · Wed Nov 22, 2017 12:59 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Also in the news, the average purchasing power of a British household went down with € 500 because of the exchange rate between the pound and the Euro, namely because of foot (50% is imported from the EU).

Flip side is that those tourist centered business houses are seeing a boom as the lower pound has resulted in increased traffic, need to see the UK airlines declare traffic numbers to see whether air or ground are the biggest beneficiaries.

Aesma · Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:19 pm

ElPistolero wrote:
"Brussels views its free-trade agreement with Canada as the only realistic model for post-Brexit trade with the U.K.
...
In her Florence speech in September, May said: “Compared with what exists between Britain and the EU today, [a Canada-style arrangement] would nevertheless represent such a restriction on our mutual market access that it would benefit neither of our economies.”

Isn't that the definition of Brexit ?

par13del · Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:52 pm

Aesma wrote:
Isn't that the definition of Brexit ?

If Brexit means the UK goes Canada, yes, but how about Brexit meaning the USA, China, Japan, India, etc etc etc.
A specific model was mentioned by the EU, in their eye they see the Canada model which took a decade or so to negotiate as being the best model for the UK who is leaving the EU after 40+ years, which is fine, which model does the UK see as being best and does the EU really care, in which case as in all things the UK either takes the Canada model offered or do the next best thing, minimal trade with the EU.

Dutchy · Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:57 pm

par13del wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Also in the news, the average purchasing power of a British household went down with € 500 because of the exchange rate between the pound and the Euro, namely because of foot (50% is imported from the EU).

Flip side is that those tourist centered business houses are seeing a boom as the lower pound has resulted in increased traffic, need to see the UK airlines declare traffic numbers to see whether air or ground are the biggest beneficiaries.

Sure, but these will benefit the few, these costs are real expenses for the many.

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