wingman
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Trump's Tax Plan

Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:18 pm

Today markets are cheering the unveiling of Trump's tax plan which would reduce corporate taxation to a flat rate of 15% across the board. It would come in addition to a lowering of income tax rates for the top 10-20% of wage earners. Complex national-level finance and/or economic policy calculations have never been my strong suit but a combination of severely reduced treasury income combined with increased outlays for walls, infrastructure and warfare makes me very uneasy in the long-term. I understand the crack high/steroid shot this provides in the short-term but history is replete with evidence that the long-term consequences of "less money in/more money out" rarely has a positive outcome in the end. If all these cuts go through and we engage in a major war (or double war with NK and Iran) in Asia I have a feeling the country is going to be in for another near calamitous financial event like the 2008 financial crisis.

I truly abhor conservative social policy but I always leaned in their direction on fiscal policy when the GOP used to stand for fiscal responsibility and long-term economic stewardship. But I don't know what happened to that core principle. Somewhere along the way it feels like they became worse stewards than the Democratic Party by not enforcing spending cuts to offset reduced inflows. And with an insatiable appetite for warfare, I doubt Mexico will pay for either, they are coming closer than ever to damaging the long-term economic vitality and promise this country is known for.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:34 pm

Voodoo economics. Just like in the Reagan period, it aint going to work, the Laffer-curve. And btw, Trump is setting it up in a way he personally will benefit from this in the order of tens of millions of dollars. I think it is a just question to ask if Trump is doing this for himself or for the country. Such questions will rise, rise again and again as long as Trump doesn't sever himself from his business, the same with his empire abroad, does he do something for himself or for America? Make Trump great again?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
salttee
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:39 pm

wingman wrote:
Complex national-level finance and/or economic policy calculations have never been my strong suit

Then don't make it complex. This is simple, eliminating 30% or so of tax revenues will expand the deficit and that will increase the national debit. It can't work any other way because most Fed expenditures are fixed. But the Republicans who control Congress are the faction that consider increases to the national debit apocalyptic, (except when used to fund unnecessary wars), so that idea can never fly.

Therefore Trump is bluffing; just like on the wall, or just like healthcare.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:10 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Voodoo economics. Just like in the Reagan period, it aint going to work, the Laffer-curve. And btw, Trump is setting it up in a way he personally will benefit from this in the order of tens of millions of dollars. I think it is a just question to ask if Trump is doing this for himself or for the country. Such questions will rise, rise again and again as long as Trump doesn't sever himself from his business, the same with his empire abroad, does he do something for himself or for America? Make Trump great again?

Depends on where the USA is on the Laffer Curve. Either way, this will definitely grow the gini coefficient.
"It's not getting to the land of the nonrev that's the problem, it's getting back." ~~Captain Hector Barbossa
The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and don't necessarily reflect those of my employer.
 
wingman
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Wed Apr 26, 2017 6:10 pm

Reading a more detailed analysis it seems that pat of the tax plan will include a "tax holiday" incentive to get companies like Apple to repatriate some $2T+ dollars current held in offshore tax havens. However, this would be an "expected" windfall following the hard and fast cuts. I'm all for repatriation, no one can argue against the benefits of a massive infusion to Treasury and what could sensibly be done with the money (e.g. hard infrastructure improvements in highways, bridges and dams), but what I would argue for is doing that part first to see what the yield is..and then negotiate revenue cuts from tax reduction that we can afford long-term.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:13 pm

wingman wrote:
Reading a more detailed analysis it seems that pat of the tax plan will include a "tax holiday" incentive to get companies like Apple to repatriate some $2T+ dollars current held in offshore tax havens. However, this would be an "expected" windfall following the hard and fast cuts. I'm all for repatriation, no one can argue against the benefits of a massive infusion to Treasury and what could sensibly be done with the money (e.g. hard infrastructure improvements in highways, bridges and dams), but what I would argue for is doing that part first to see what the yield is..and then negotiate revenue cuts from tax reduction that we can afford long-term.


It is quite a problem worldwide. All big multinationals (and a lot of smaller companies as well) do the tax-evasion dance. The $2T dollars plus will not have any taxation on it anywhere. I find it quite absurd that a small coffee bar is taxed maximum, while its competitor Starbucks effectively pays none. The EU hopefully will draw up a plan to pay taxes in EU country where the money is earned, so some will go back to society at large (from which these companies profit, #bigly)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Aesma
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Wed Apr 26, 2017 7:29 pm

Yes there is no reason it should all come back to the US. And there is no reason it should come without being taxed or with minimum taxes. It would mean the GAFAs are subsidized while most businesses that never avoided paying their share are not.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
cgnnrw
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:08 pm

My thoughts are Congress won't go for 15% and at best meet him halfway somewhere in the mid to high 20% bracket. Either way I hope the big multi-nationals pay it without moaning and groaning about being "taxed to death". Also, all the possible loopholes need to be sealed with an iron clad lock to prevent any form of tax evasion.

I agree with the principle...where you make your money you pay the taxes. As already posted, Starbucks is a good example. The small family run espresso bar is being "taxed to death" while Starbucks gets off scott free. And at the same time selling horrible coffee!

Wait and see......
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salttee
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:08 pm

wingman wrote:
Reading a more detailed analysis it seems that pat of the tax plan will include a "tax holiday" incentive to get companies like Apple to repatriate some $2T+ dollars current held in offshore tax havens. However, this would be an "expected" windfall following the hard and fast cuts. I'm all for repatriation, no one can argue against the benefits of a massive infusion to Treasury and what could sensibly be done with the money (e.g. hard infrastructure improvements in highways, bridges and dams), but what I would argue for is doing that part first to see what the yield is..and then negotiate revenue cuts from tax reduction that we can afford long-term.

How would allowing hidden offshore money to be brought into books of companies without being taxed, add anything to the US treasury? You can be assured that Donald Trump and his circle of billionaires which constitute the current administration will do nothing to stop offshore tax dodges. They just want to forgive past due taxes for themselves and their kind.
 
Flighty
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:17 pm

I think the 15% is a great idea and long overdue. To get there, they should get rid of carried interest fraud. The government has never collected more money; the government is fine. Entitlements need to go down.

For people concerned about the budget deficit... this is not really a big factor. Your main concerns are Medicare/Medicaid, VA benefit costs. Arguably the corporate tax rate is already above its revenue maximizing level. It can't go any higher. Your budget deficit won't be fixed or improved with this particular tax. It is not that effective, and it causes many harms to everyone, especially medium size businesses that are struggling.
 
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Wed Apr 26, 2017 8:44 pm

I'm guessing deficits no longer matter...again. So many tantrums about debt and deficits, yet all analyses done suggest, at a minimum, the debt will increase by trillions over the next decade if enacted.

It's simple math: lower overall revenue + higher spending = unbalanced budget = debt.

I'll bet there's no appetite for a balanced budget amendment now, is there?

Oh, and this is the rich part (literally): tax cuts for the rich and corporations while the middle class will not be able to itemize deductions anymore. But please tell me more about how a rich person is looking out for my interests?
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
johns624
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Wed Apr 26, 2017 9:52 pm

Flighty wrote:
Entitlements need to go down.

Your main concerns are Medicare/Medicaid, VA benefit cost..
The ole "entitlements" buzzword. Did you ever look up the definition of "entitlement"? It's something that you earned. You pay into SS/Medicare your entire working life. It's not a freebie. There are plenty of other programs that need to be cut before you come after them.
 
Flighty
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:21 pm

johns624 wrote:
Flighty wrote:
Entitlements need to go down.

Your main concerns are Medicare/Medicaid, VA benefit cost..
The ole "entitlements" buzzword. Did you ever look up the definition of "entitlement"? It's something that you earned. You pay into SS/Medicare your entire working life. It's not a freebie. There are plenty of other programs that need to be cut before you come after them.



SS I am fine with. Medicare is a dumpster fire out of control, stealing from you and stealing from me. We both deserve insurance and health care, and we can get it for half the price. Every other country does.
 
salttee
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:48 am

Flighty wrote:
Medicare is a dumpster fire out of control, stealing from you and stealing from me. We both deserve insurance and health care, and we can get it for half the price. Every other country does.

Medicare is not the problem, nor is Obamacare, they are just methods to insure people and pay the bills. Under our current healthcare system there is no possible solution if all we do is jiggle how the healthcare bills get paid. The problem is the type of healthcare system the AMA has created and saddled us with. The pharmaceutical industry also shares in the blame as well as our legal system. But no politician dares to lay a finger on the AMA, the ABA or even the pharmaceutical interests; they are all three big money lobbyists and will not hesitate to get vengeance if crossed.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:24 am

salttee wrote:
Flighty wrote:
Medicare is a dumpster fire out of control, stealing from you and stealing from me. We both deserve insurance and health care, and we can get it for half the price. Every other country does.

Medicare is not the problem, nor is Obamacare, they are just methods to insure people and pay the bills. Under our current healthcare system there is no possible solution if all we do is jiggle how the healthcare bills get paid. The problem is the type of healthcare system the AMA has created and saddled us with. The pharmaceutical industry also shares in the blame as well as our legal system. But no politician dares to lay a finger on the AMA, the ABA or even the pharmaceutical interests; they are all three big money lobbyists and will not hesitate to get vengeance if crossed.



There you have it, well said. Congress is corrupt. We are getting screwed over. I just love the advocates of letting congress screw us blind while they also screw us over royally for money and power, including the advocates of them taking what we have away. "What damn fools we mortals be"
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
DLFREEBIRD
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Thu Apr 27, 2017 2:43 am

OP why aren't you talking about Trump's executive orders that has raised taxes?

tar·iff
ˈterəf/
noun; plural noun: tariffs

1. a tax or duty to be paid on a particular class of imports or exports.
synonyms:tax, duty, toll, excise, levy, charge, rate, fee, countervail; price list

ultimately what Trump done is made consumers pay this tax, he's trying to get rid of the competition and that's insane. sadly most people won't get this and defend him.
 
BMI727
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Thu Apr 27, 2017 3:54 am

wingman wrote:
Today markets are cheering the unveiling of Trump's tax plan which would reduce corporate taxation to a flat rate of 15% across the board.

Not the first time the markets have had an odd reaction to Trump.

Also not the first time Trump is advocating something idiotic and many of the people on the other side are at least as idiotic.

TWA772LR wrote:
Either way, this will definitely grow the gini coefficient.

Not a government concern.

wingman wrote:
I'm all for repatriation, no one can argue against the benefits of a massive infusion to Treasury and what could sensibly be done with the money

As a decent American (decent human really) my opinion on where money is or is not should not matter since it is not my money.

Flighty wrote:
Arguably the corporate tax rate is already above its revenue maximizing level. It can't go any higher.

The country should switch to FairTax and abolish corporate taxes entirely.

johns624 wrote:
You pay into SS/Medicare your entire working life. It's not a freebie.

Just like a lot of people paid into Bernie Madoff's fund. Social Security needs to be phased out in an orderly manner before it gets out of control, which it will, in one direction or the other.

Flighty wrote:
We both deserve insurance and health care,

Do you? Why the hell should I pay for your healthcare? What return do I see on my investment if I pay for you to get a band-aid or a bypass? I'm sure someone thinks it's important that you're healthy. They should pay the bill for it.

salttee wrote:
Medicare is not the problem, nor is Obamacare, they are just methods to insure people and pay the bills. Under our current healthcare system there is no possible solution if all we do is jiggle how the healthcare bills get paid. The problem is the type of healthcare system the AMA has created and saddled us with. The pharmaceutical industry also shares in the blame as well as our legal system. But no politician dares to lay a finger on the AMA, the ABA or even the pharmaceutical interests; they are all three big money lobbyists and will not hesitate to get vengeance if crossed.

America's healthcare issues are directly because of government meddling. Asking the government to fix healthcare is like asking R.J. Reynolds to cure cancer.
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salttee
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:09 am

BMI727 wrote:
America's healthcare issues are directly because of government meddling.
That makes no sense to me. Please explain.
 
seb146
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:38 am

Flighty wrote:
I think the 15% is a great idea and long overdue. To get there, they should get rid of carried interest fraud. The government has never collected more money; the government is fine. Entitlements need to go down.

For people concerned about the budget deficit... this is not really a big factor. Your main concerns are Medicare/Medicaid, VA benefit costs. Arguably the corporate tax rate is already above its revenue maximizing level. It can't go any higher. Your budget deficit won't be fixed or improved with this particular tax. It is not that effective, and it causes many harms to everyone, especially medium size businesses that are struggling.


Medicare and Social Security are taxed separately. Those are FICA taxes that have zero to do with the deficit. Nothing. The only reason the right brings it up is because they borrowed money from so-called "entitlements" and want to get rid of them so the right is not pinned for causing them to collapse.

Republicans are doing what Republicans do best: bait and switch. They keep saying they are the party of fiscal responsibility and want to lower debt, deficit, and taxes but do the opposite while taking away from us who work hard and get less. It is the same old song and dance.
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tommy1808
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Thu Apr 27, 2017 5:53 am

TWA772LR wrote:
Depends on where the USA is on the Laffer Curve.


Is there such a thing? If anything, historical data seems to show that taxes have no effect whatsoever on economic growth, unless you get pretty close to the edges. When i was a kid you could still have a total (Taxes and SS) rate above 100% in Sweden, i remember vaguely hearing a court upholding that in the late 80s/early 90s, and not even that killed the economy. Heck, i am paying 53,92 % and Germany is accused of dumping steel into the US Market (with Steel workers having excellent pay, 6 weeks paid vacation, 13th pay and a 35 hours working week)........

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Thomas
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TWA772LR
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:08 am

tommy1808 wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
Depends on where the USA is on the Laffer Curve.


Is there such a thing? If anything, historical data seems to show that taxes have no effect whatsoever on economic growth, unless you get pretty close to the edges. When i was a kid you could still have a total (Taxes and SS) rate above 100% in Sweden, i remember vaguely hearing a court upholding that in the late 80s/early 90s, and not even that killed the economy. Heck, i am paying 53,92 % and Germany is accused of dumping steel into the US Market (with Steel workers having excellent pay, 6 weeks paid vacation, 13th pay and a 35 hours working week)........

best regards
Thomas

According to macroeconomic theories, taxes do affect economic performance. Y is output/income, T is taxes, C is consumption (household), and Sp is private (household) savings. The theory looks like this:
Y=C+Sp+T
Subtracting T on both sides gives you the function for household disposable income (Y-T):
Y-T=C+Sp

In short, if taxes increase, disposable income decreases. That could affect C, Sp, or both depending on the Marginal Propensity to Save/Consume.

Taxes also plays into total/national savings (S), where G is govt spending,.
S=Sp+(T-G)
where (T-G) is public saving.

Ergo if taxes increase in this formula, cetaris parabus, S will increase.

It gets too complicated to type on a phone and it is late here. But that is the most basic macroeconomic rundown of how taxes affect the economy.
"It's not getting to the land of the nonrev that's the problem, it's getting back." ~~Captain Hector Barbossa
The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and don't necessarily reflect those of my employer.
 
DLFREEBIRD
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:35 am

the one tax year Trump leaked, shows that under his new tax plan he would of saved 35 million in taxes. funny how that works.
 
BestWestern
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:17 am

However, reducing taxes doesn't always mean that spending increases. People can choose to save or reduce debt.
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Dutchy
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Thu Apr 27, 2017 8:30 am

TWA772LR wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
Depends on where the USA is on the Laffer Curve.


Is there such a thing? If anything, historical data seems to show that taxes have no effect whatsoever on economic growth, unless you get pretty close to the edges. When i was a kid you could still have a total (Taxes and SS) rate above 100% in Sweden, i remember vaguely hearing a court upholding that in the late 80s/early 90s, and not even that killed the economy. Heck, i am paying 53,92 % and Germany is accused of dumping steel into the US Market (with Steel workers having excellent pay, 6 weeks paid vacation, 13th pay and a 35 hours working week)........

best regards
Thomas

According to macroeconomic theories, taxes do affect economic performance. Y is output/income, T is taxes, C is consumption (household), and Sp is private (household) savings. The theory looks like this:
Y=C+Sp+T
Subtracting T on both sides gives you the function for household disposable income (Y-T):
Y-T=C+Sp

In short, if taxes increase, disposable income decreases. That could affect C, Sp, or both depending on the Marginal Propensity to Save/Consume.

Taxes also plays into total/national savings (S), where G is govt spending,.
S=Sp+(T-G)
where (T-G) is public saving.

Ergo if taxes increase in this formula, cetaris parabus, S will increase.

It gets too complicated to type on a phone and it is late here. But that is the most basic macroeconomic rundown of how taxes affect the economy.


Some nuances to this. Taxes are spent in the economy as well. But mainly it is the manner how the taxes are implemented and what the taxes are spent on. You could argue that taxes are needed to uphold the circumstances where businesses thrive: e.g. rule of law, infrastructure, education etc. etc. And then there is te question of what is taxed. If you give some relieve to the middle class, almost all the money will be spent in your local economy, if you give tax relieve to the rich and big businesses, then almost none of it will be spent in the local economy. And that is voodoo economics what Trump is doing here. They are looking out for themselves and not for the people whom voted for him and that is the most tragic thing of this administration. Getting screwed over by the person you put into power.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Thu Apr 27, 2017 9:26 am

Dutchy wrote:
Some nuances to this. Taxes are spent in the economy as well. But mainly it is the manner how the taxes are implemented and what the taxes are spent on. You could argue that taxes are needed to uphold the circumstances where businesses thrive: e.g. rule of law, infrastructure, education etc. etc.


Exactly! Higher taxes = less income is Macroeconomics 101, and like almost any 101 that mean it is dumbed down as far as possible. Taxes don´t end up in a Panamanian bank account and don´t build sweat shops in Bangladesh. If a family can have two incomes, instead of one due to government spending, the family has more money available. If one family member has a safe government job, they may be more willing to make long term investments, even in an economic downturn and so on. Taxes are pretty neutral in terms of economic growth, which is plain obvious by a simple look at the world, where high tax countries somehow don´t struggle to compete.
That curve is about as real as the notion that public administration is inherently less efficient than private enterprize, which is also nonsense. If you manage that with the same tools, you get the same efficiency.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:46 am

I think individual tax proposal is over simplified. I would say keep seven brackets at 5,10,15,20,25,30,35. Still easy to calculate more balanced.

It is irrelevant what corporate tax rate is, until international loop holes are closed. I doubt any country can fix this on its own. If Apple/GE are paying -2% to 2%, why would they pay 15%
 
DfwRevolution
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Thu Apr 27, 2017 1:59 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Voodoo economics. Just like in the Reagan period, it aint going to work


Huh. Economic growth was fantastic under Reagan. The U.S. economy has nearly tripled since he took office in 1981. Standard of living has greatly increased. More middle class families are now upper class families. Steady productivity growth. Unbelievable innovation and creative potential unleashed. I'll happily take that.

Let's cut to the point: you don't know jack about the American tax code. You don't know jack about the adverse consequence and perverse incentives of the U.S. tax code that were plowed away back in the 1980s. And you don't know jack about the adverse consequences and perverse incentives of the tax code that exists today.

Aesma wrote:
Yes there is no reason it should all come back to the US. And there is no reason it should come without being taxed or with minimum taxes


OK. And there's no reason it shouldn't. It's arbitrary what we choose to tax (or not).

Aesma wrote:
It would mean the GAFAs are subsidized while most businesses that never avoided paying their share are not.


And what tax laws are available to Google, Apple, Facebook, and Amazon that aren't available to everybody else?
I have a three post per topic limit. You're welcome to have the last word.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Thu Apr 27, 2017 4:42 pm

BMI727
[quote="TWA772LR wrote:
Either way, this will definitely grow the gini coefficient.

Not a government concern.

[/quote]
Yeah it is. The largest portion of US government spending actually isn't on defense, but the redistribution of income, which the gini coefficient represents. Lower gini = more equal income distribution. Higher gini = less equal income distribution.

The country with the highest gini of countries reported (per CIA World Factbook) is Lesotho at 63.2% (others in the ballpark are Botswana, South Africa, and Sierra Leone). The lowest gini is Slovenia at 23.7% (ballpark including Hungary, Denmark and Sweden).

The US' gini is 45%, and the world average is 38.1%. Countries not reported include DPRK, Afghanistan, Somalia, UAE, Cuba, KSA, and others.

At 45% (after our social programs are included), the US is fairly middle of the road. Taxing less on the rich will increase our gini, meaning the government will have to do more about the redistribution of income.
"It's not getting to the land of the nonrev that's the problem, it's getting back." ~~Captain Hector Barbossa
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wingman
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:01 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
Huh. Economic growth was fantastic under Reagan. The U.S. economy has nearly tripled since he took office in 1981. Standard of living has greatly increased. More middle class families are now upper class families. Steady productivity growth. Unbelievable innovation and creative potential unleashed. I'll happily take that.

I think much of what you say is highly debatable. Reagan also triple the national debt while in office, the greatest percentage increase of any President in recent memory, followed by Bush Jr. The US economy has grown steadily but at varying rates since WWII, with the cyclical downturns that have impacted Presidents on both sides of the aisle (none worse than Jr. of course). I would seriously question the comment about middle class families and innovation. Is it true that under Reagan the percentage of middle class families fell and that the percentage of upper middle class or upper class families grew? That's not my recollection, I thought it was in fact the opposite, the well off did exceptionally well but the rest did not..at all. I'll have to look that up. And what do you mean by innovation.. the personal computer, the stealth bomber? Not being a jack-ass, just wondering what kind of innovation you would attribute specifically to Reagan's economic policies.
 
LMP737
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:40 pm

The problem with the republicans is that they have seemed to have convinced themselves that they can balance the budget and cut the deficit by lowering taxes, increasing the defense budget and cutting domestic programs. Didn't work before so I don't know what makes them think it will work now.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:00 pm

wingman wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
Huh. Economic growth was fantastic under Reagan. The U.S. economy has nearly tripled since he took office in 1981. Standard of living has greatly increased. More middle class families are now upper class families. Steady productivity growth. Unbelievable innovation and creative potential unleashed. I'll happily take that.

I think much of what you say is highly debatable. Reagan also triple the national debt while in office, the greatest percentage increase of any President in recent memory, followed by Bush Jr. The US economy has grown steadily but at varying rates since WWII, with the cyclical downturns that have impacted Presidents on both sides of the aisle (none worse than Jr. of course). I would seriously question the comment about middle class families and innovation. Is it true that under Reagan the percentage of middle class families fell and that the percentage of upper middle class or upper class families grew? That's not my recollection, I thought it was in fact the opposite, the well off did exceptionally well but the rest did not..at all. I'll have to look that up. And what do you mean by innovation.. the personal computer, the stealth bomber? Not being a jack-ass, just wondering what kind of innovation you would attribute specifically to Reagan's economic policies.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_ ... Up_to_2008
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Flighty
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Thu Apr 27, 2017 7:59 pm

seb146 wrote:
Medicare and Social Security are taxed separately. Those are FICA taxes that have zero to do with the deficit. Nothing. The only reason the right brings it up is because they borrowed money from so-called "entitlements" and want to get rid of them so the right is not pinned for causing them to collapse.


If you really do the homework, you will find out that Medicare and Medicaid (and to a lesser extent the Pentagon and VA) are the cause of the deficit and our national debt. If you really believe Medicare has nothing to do with the deficit, I have to urge you to stop there, and look into it.

Here's a picture of the $4.1 trillion 2016 Federal budget. If you omit Social Security, then you get a budget of around 2.7T, of which around 1T is deficit (*actually $600B). That deficit is caused by whatever you want to single out.

https://media.nationalpriorities.org/up ... nding2.png
 
seb146
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:09 am

Flighty wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Medicare and Social Security are taxed separately. Those are FICA taxes that have zero to do with the deficit. Nothing. The only reason the right brings it up is because they borrowed money from so-called "entitlements" and want to get rid of them so the right is not pinned for causing them to collapse.


If you really do the homework, you will find out that Medicare and Medicaid (and to a lesser extent the Pentagon and VA) are the cause of the deficit and our national debt. If you really believe Medicare has nothing to do with the deficit, I have to urge you to stop there, and look into it.

Here's a picture of the $4.1 trillion 2016 Federal budget. If you omit Social Security, then you get a budget of around 2.7T, of which around 1T is deficit (*actually $600B). That deficit is caused by whatever you want to single out.

https://media.nationalpriorities.org/up ... nding2.png


Because Republicans kept taking from the Social Security coffers. We all pay into Social Security. If Republicans would just remove the cap, it would be solvent for much longer than now. It is solvent now, but not for as long as it would if they remove the cap. That is not the problem. The problem is war. Endless and no way to pay for it war.
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seb146
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:15 am

Another thing I will never understand is we have to slash taxes for those poor over taxed billionaires who have accountants and loopholes (read: entitlements) to pay nothing in taxes after all is said and done but God forbid taxes should be cut on the working class because they pay nothing after all is said and done so they are mooching of the government and can pay for things instead of getting "welfare." You know: food stamps and Medicare for seniors. Those darned moochers.
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tommy1808
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Fri Apr 28, 2017 4:53 am

seb146 wrote:
loopholes (read: entitlements).


i like your sense of humor :D

best regards
Thomas
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Dutchy
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Fri Apr 28, 2017 7:06 am

seb146 wrote:
Another thing I will never understand is we have to slash taxes for those poor over taxed billionaires who have accountants and loopholes (read: entitlements) to pay nothing in taxes after all is said and done but God forbid taxes should be cut on the working class because they pay nothing after all is said and done so they are mooching of the government and can pay for things instead of getting "welfare." You know: food stamps and Medicare for seniors. Those darned moochers.


Yeah. What I don't understand is that people defend it, while they will never ever benefit from it. They are among the 99%.
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bhill
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Fri Apr 28, 2017 10:20 pm

Pay of the existing national debt first...THEN try to finance the government..We have 2 Iraqi, 1 Syrian and Afghanistan conflicts to pay for first..from the bullets to the wounded...and ALL income....wages and / or capital gains, etc needs to be taxed the same, if a corporation has the same rights I do, they need to be treated as such.
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Hillis
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Sat Apr 29, 2017 1:04 am

johns624 wrote:
Flighty wrote:
Entitlements need to go down.

Your main concerns are Medicare/Medicaid, VA benefit cost..
The ole "entitlements" buzzword. Did you ever look up the definition of "entitlement"? It's something that you earned. You pay into SS/Medicare your entire working life. It's not a freebie. There are plenty of other programs that need to be cut before you come after them.


In other words, you want the poor and middle class to pay for the windfall for the wealthy and corporations, correct? You can deny that all you want but that's what you're suggesting. Mash up health care, educational programs like school lunches and after-school programs, etc etc etc, so the rich and powerful can have more dominance over our lives.

And who will make out like a bandit with this plan if it were enacted? Why, 45 and his plutocratic kids.
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Hillis
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Sat Apr 29, 2017 1:07 am

LMP737 wrote:
The problem with the republicans is that they have seemed to have convinced themselves that they can balance the budget and cut the deficit by lowering taxes, increasing the defense budget and cutting domestic programs. Didn't work before so I don't know what makes them think it will work now.


They don't care if it works. Just like with the original Trumpcare proposal, it was simply a Trojan Horse to get a huge tax break through for the wealthy. Same with this. They prattle on about balancing the budget and cutting the deficit and debt, but they only say that when a program is meant to help the poor and middle class, then all of a suddent, we can't pay for it.

Their goal is to have a relatively few rich, powerful people who can dictate to the rest of us how we live and what table scraps we might get.
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WarRI1
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Sat Apr 29, 2017 1:35 am

Hillis

Their goal is to have a relatively few rich, powerful people who can dictate to the rest of us how we live and what table scraps we might get.

And this is the reason I cannot understand anyone on here, or anyone who works for a living, or who is not from a wealthy family defending those who want to screw them and us over and over. I find it hard to believe the Parrots on here who squawk about taxes, social programs and any kind of healthcare run by the government. Yet over and over they defend their real oppressors and we wonder why we are a disappearing working and middle class. Absolutely stupid to me. Wait! Maybe I had better use the term unwise. We do not want to hurt anybodies feelings. Do we? :sarcastic:
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johns624
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Sat Apr 29, 2017 1:42 am

Hillis wrote:
johns624 wrote:
Flighty wrote:
Entitlements need to go down.

Your main concerns are Medicare/Medicaid, VA benefit cost..
The ole "entitlements" buzzword. Did you ever look up the definition of "entitlement"? It's something that you earned. You pay into SS/Medicare your entire working life. It's not a freebie. There are plenty of other programs that need to be cut before you come after them.


In other words, you want the poor and middle class to pay for the windfall for the wealthy and corporations, correct? You can deny that all you want but that's what you're suggesting. Mash up health care, educational programs like school lunches and after-school programs, etc etc etc, so the rich and powerful can have more dominance over our lives.

And who will make out like a bandit with this plan if it were enacted? Why, 45 and his plutocratic kids.
Why are you quoting me? I'm against cutting SS and Medicare.
 
BMI727
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Sat Apr 29, 2017 5:25 am

salttee wrote:
That makes no sense to me. Please explain.

It would if you understood the history of failed policy.

In 1942 the Stabilization Act of 1942 was passed and signed into law by FDR. The act allowed the president to freeze wages which is precisely what he did. Of course, as it always does, the free market steamrolled government policy because industry still needed to get and retain workers. Unable to offer higher pay, companies responded by offering their employees insurance and healthcare benefits to get around the law that artificially capped wages. The attempts by a liberal administration to manipulate the free market are what caused healthcare to shift from being personal and become tied to employment. Add in Medicare and Medicaid a couple decades later and you have the perfect cocktail of dumb leftist policy that is the mess healthcare is today.

seb146 wrote:
They keep saying they are the party of fiscal responsibility and want to lower debt, deficit, and taxes but do the opposite while taking away from us who work hard and get less.

Do you think that investing in a Ponzi scheme counts as fiscal responsibility?

tommy1808 wrote:
When i was a kid you could still have a total (Taxes and SS) rate above 100% in Sweden, i remember vaguely hearing a court upholding that in the late 80s/early 90s, and not even that killed the economy.

Interesting you mention Sweden:
https://www.libertarianism.org/publicat ... weden-rich
TWA772LR wrote:
Yeah it is. The largest portion of US government spending actually isn't on defense, but the redistribution of income, which the gini coefficient represents. Lower gini = more equal income distribution. Higher gini = less equal income distribution.

You skipped the part where the government has no business redistributing income. The only redistributing of income the government should do is when someone's rights are violated and we have a court system to do that.

wingman wrote:
That's not my recollection, I thought it was in fact the opposite, the well off did exceptionally well but the rest did not..at all. I'll have to look that up.

Consider it done. Your recollection is wrong.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/mo ... s-anymore/

seb146 wrote:
Because Republicans kept taking from the Social Security coffers. We all pay into Social Security. If Republicans would just remove the cap, it would be solvent for much longer than now. It is solvent now, but not for as long as it would if they remove the cap.

Bernie Madoff was solvent for quite a while too.

seb146 wrote:
The problem is war. Endless and no way to pay for it war.

Actually the numbers say that is not true.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/wh ... -spending/

Dutchy wrote:
Yeah. What I don't understand is that people defend it, while they will never ever benefit from it. They are among the 99%

Basic human decency. I was taught to keep your hands to myself and not touch things that don't belong to me.

bhill wrote:
and ALL income....wages and / or capital gains, etc needs to be taxed the same, if a corporation has the same rights I do, they need to be treated as such.

1. How many times do you want to tax a given dollar?
2. Do you agree that there are ultimately people behind any company?

WarRI1 wrote:
And this is the reason I cannot understand anyone on here, or anyone who works for a living, or who is not from a wealthy family defending those who want to screw them and us over and over. I find it hard to believe the Parrots on here who squawk about taxes, social programs and any kind of healthcare run by the government. Yet over and over they defend their real oppressors and we wonder why we are a disappearing working and middle class. Absolutely stupid to me.

See above. It's just good manners.
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Dutchy
Posts: 3794
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:44 am

BMI727 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Yeah. What I don't understand is that people defend it, while they will never ever benefit from it. They are among the 99%

Basic human decency. I was taught to keep your hands to myself and not touch things that don't belong to me.

bhill wrote:
and ALL income....wages and / or capital gains, etc needs to be taxed the same, if a corporation has the same rights I do, they need to be treated as such.

1. How many times do you want to tax a given dollar?
2. Do you agree that there are ultimately people behind any company?

WarRI1 wrote:
And this is the reason I cannot understand anyone on here, or anyone who works for a living, or who is not from a wealthy family defending those who want to screw them and us over and over. I find it hard to believe the Parrots on here who squawk about taxes, social programs and any kind of healthcare run by the government. Yet over and over they defend their real oppressors and we wonder why we are a disappearing working and middle class. Absolutely stupid to me.

See above. It's just good manners.


That is far to easy. Look at this, this way. Companies and individuals whom has wealth as their main income, are paracitering on society. They take (infrastructure, security, rule of law, education etc. etc.), but don't contribute in the form of taxes. It has nothing to do with - the frame - good manners or human decency, it has everything to do with fairness. Since the '70-ish almost all the gains in the economy - in real terms - has gone to the top, not the middle class.
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wingman
Topic Author
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:11 pm

BMI727 wrote:
wingman wrote:
That's not my recollection, I thought it was in fact the opposite, the well off did exceptionally well but the rest did not..at all. I'll have to look that up.

Consider it done. Your recollection is wrong.
https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/mo ... ss-anymore


Are you reading the chart? If so you're clearly not understanding it because it answers the question definitively in my favor and contrary to the claim made by DFW, who said that the Reagan years were the glory years of the middle class. They were not. As per the chart you linked to the Reagan years saw nearly the greatest relative decline of the middle class in all the decades posted, it also saw the greatest absolute increase in the top bracket AND an increase in the very bottom bracket. So I'm not sure what you think you're interpreting there that supports DFW's claims, please share that. I'd also point out that the last GOP President prior to Trump experienced the worst of all income share movements to the wealthy at the near total expense of the poor. That's what tax cuts for the wealthy and absolute warfare will do to the economy, and it sounds eerily similar to the policies being proposed by Trump. It's the very definition of insanity.
 
seb146
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Sat Apr 29, 2017 3:50 pm

I am making these numbers simple but what the right sees is big corporations and "job creators" are taxed $1,000,000 and that should not happen because they are big corporations and job creators. That is where the right stops. If they would continue, they would see that their tax rate has nothing to do with job creation and that they get $2,000,000 back in the form of tax breaks and rebates and payments from the government. Guess who pays for big corporations to get that extra $1,000,000? Big corporations serve a purpose. No one is denying that. They just need to pay taxes like the rest of us if they are, indeed, people.
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Aesma
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:07 pm

At the end of the day our economies consume natural resources, and those belong to everybody. So the economy should work out for everybody in return.
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LMP737
Posts: 5276
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:21 pm

BMI727 wrote:
In 1942 the Stabilization Act of 1942 was passed and signed into law by FDR. The act allowed the president to freeze wages which is precisely what he did. Of course, as it always does, the free market steamrolled government policy because industry still needed to get and retain workers. Unable to offer higher pay, companies responded by offering their employees insurance and healthcare benefits to get around the law that artificially capped wages. The attempts by a liberal administration to manipulate the free market are what caused healthcare to shift from being personal and become tied to employment. Add in Medicare and Medicaid a couple decades later and you have the perfect cocktail of dumb leftist policy that is the mess healthcare is today.


You conveniently left out what was going on in 1942 and why that law was passed.
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einsteinboricua
Posts: 5822
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:39 pm

seb146 wrote:
I am making these numbers simple but what the right sees is big corporations and "job creators" are taxed $1,000,000 and that should not happen because they are big corporations and job creators. That is where the right stops. If they would continue, they would see that their tax rate has nothing to do with job creation and that they get $2,000,000 back in the form of tax breaks and rebates and payments from the government. Guess who pays for big corporations to get that extra $1,000,000? Big corporations serve a purpose. No one is denying that. They just need to pay taxes like the rest of us if they are, indeed, people.

Just like most of them believe in an imaginary guy in the sky, they also believe that they don't pocket the change and instead invest it in us. And if they're not doing it, it's because the tax cuts are too little and they need more.

Actually, strike that. The rich do invest their tax cuts...directly into the coffers of the politicians to ensure they're kept in place or made larger.
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DfwRevolution
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Sat Apr 29, 2017 6:45 pm

wingman wrote:
I would seriously question the comment about middle class families and innovation. Is it true that under Reagan the percentage of middle class families fell and that the percentage of upper middle class or upper class families grew?


Yes.

wingman wrote:
Are you reading the chart? If so you're clearly not understanding it because it answers the question definitively in my favor and contrary to the claim made by DFW, who said that the Reagan years were the glory years of the middle class. They were not. As per the chart you linked to the Reagan years saw nearly the greatest relative decline of the middle class in all the decades posted, it also saw the greatest absolute increase in the top bracket AND an increase in the very bottom bracket.


Then I suggest reading the text next to the chart.

Also, where did I say the Reagan administration "were the glory years of the middle class?" By all means, tell me where I said that. I'll wait.

What I said was "more middle class families are now upper class families." The data shows that is objectively true. The share of upper-class and upper-middle-class families grew from 15% in 1981 to 21% in 2015. Furthermore, upper-class households are growing faster than lower-class households. For every one additional lower-class household, two households became upper-class. In other words, more people are advancing than not.

Lastly, you are approaching this from the static view that a.) an additional lower-class household means someone fell from the middle-class and b.) that being lower-class in 2015 is remotely comparable to being lower-class in 1981. On the first point, some middle class households have certainly fell, but that's also true of some upper-class households. We live in a dynamic country. We have also welcomed over 20 million immigrants since the mid-1980s, many of whom arrive in the United States at lower economic status than average Americans. Those people do so willingly and enthusiastically because being a lower-class American is still absolutely better than living at any class in some parts of the world. On the latter point, living standards at all income levels has vastly improved in the last 30 years. Lower-class Americans today can enjoy products and services that didn't exist at any income level in the 1980s.

wingman wrote:
And what do you mean by innovation.. the personal computer, the stealth bomber? Not being a jack-ass, just wondering what kind of innovation you would attribute specifically to Reagan's economic policies.


The tax and regulatory reforms passed from 1981-1986 made it significantly easier to start-up, invest, and profitably sell a small business. In particular, changing the ownership rules and tax treatment of S-corps, accelerating depreciation schedules, and reducing capital gains rates paved the way for huge amounts of capital to flock to the technology sector in the 1990s.

Aesma wrote:
At the end of the day our economies consume natural resources, and those belong to everybody. So the economy should work out for everybody in return.


Nope. No way. Totally wrong.

1. The United States respects natural resources as a form of private property.

2. Natural resources are a minority of economic inputs. The vast majority of economic input comes from human labor and financial capital. In the United States, both of those are - again - private property.

3. As the economic inputs in the United States are generally private, it follows therefore that the economic outputs are private property, too.

The implications of your statement are grotesque. Attempting to proportion economic outputs "for everybody" is an affront to the strong private property rights necessary for a capitalist market economy to function. If the individual lacks private ownership of their own economic inputs and outputs, then the don't exist as individuals. They belong to the state. And that's exactly what has transpired in the socialist economies of the USSR, China, Cuba, Yugoslavia, and now - tragically - Venezuela. Those dreary, dystopian, hungry, and soul-crushing societies with no human rights, no culture, no innovation, no environmental protection, and no hope. But hey, they are equally miserable.

Returning to the topic at hand, the only ethical purpose for collecting tax revenue is to pay for those things which have diffuse public benefit and cannot be privatized. For example, national defense, law enforcement, and certain public works.
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seb146
Posts: 15564
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Re: Trump's Tax Plan

Sat Apr 29, 2017 7:31 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
wingman wrote:
Are you reading the chart? If so you're clearly not understanding it because it answers the question definitively in my favor and contrary to the claim made by DFW, who said that the Reagan years were the glory years of the middle class. They were not. As per the chart you linked to the Reagan years saw nearly the greatest relative decline of the middle class in all the decades posted, it also saw the greatest absolute increase in the top bracket AND an increase in the very bottom bracket.


Then I suggest reading the text next to the chart.

Also, where did I say the Reagan administration "were the glory years of the middle class?" By all means, tell me where I said that. I'll wait.

What I said was "more middle class families are now upper class families." The data shows that is objectively true. The share of upper-class and upper-middle-class families grew from 15% in 1981 to 21% in 2015. Furthermore, upper-class households are growing faster than lower-class households. For every one additional lower-class household, two households became upper-class. In other words, more people are advancing than not.

Lastly, you are approaching this from the static view that a.) an additional lower-class household means someone fell from the middle-class and b.) that being lower-class in 2015 is remotely comparable to being lower-class in 1981. On the first point, some middle class households have certainly fell, but that's also true of some upper-class households. We live in a dynamic country. We have also welcomed over 20 million immigrants since the mid-1980s, many of whom arrive in the United States at lower economic status than average Americans. Those people do so willingly and enthusiastically because being a lower-class American is still absolutely better than living at any class in some parts of the world. On the latter point, living standards at all income levels has vastly improved in the last 30 years. Lower-class Americans today can enjoy products and services that didn't exist at any income level in the 1980s.


Meaning the goal posts have been moved and not by the working class people. People can not afford to live near high paying jobs anymore because the market is out of reach. Look at how much a studio apartment sells for in cities. People don't want to move because there are no good paying jobs and crumbling infrastructure in rural America.
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