LMP737
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:52 pm

For all you people who are gung ho about going after North Korea let me ask you a couple questions. Who are you willing to sacrifice in that little venture? Are you willing to sacrifice yourself? Maybe you have a loved one in mind instead. My point is the people rattling their sabers on this post probably don't have to worry about it too much.
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Dutchy
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:04 pm

Tugger wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
I think the regime isn't mad, they need something like a nucleair bomb so America doesn't attack.

Where do you get this? When has this ever actually been the case?


Technically north and south Korea are still at war. The border is the most heavenly militarized one in the world. North Korea is backed by China, the only assurance of its kind China has given. South Korea s backed by America. Then you have a regime which is such horrific to its people. And is openly hostile to others, also to have a basis to legitimize the North Korean regime for its people (most effective to have an outside treat if you want to form a group). But in doing all of this, the main focus is to survive. Because they must know that people in power will not survive a regime change, like we have seen in countless of cases.
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Tugger
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:17 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Technically north and south Korea are still at war. The border is the most heavenly militarized one in the world. North Korea is backed by China, the only assurance of its kind China has given. South Korea s backed by America. Then you have a regime which is such horrific to its people. And is openly hostile to others, also to have a basis to legitimize the North Korean regime for its people (most effective to have an outside treat if you want to form a group). But in doing all of this, the main focus is to survive. Because they must know that people in power will not survive a regime change, like we have seen in countless of cases.

OK, but that doesn't mean the USA will attack to decapitate the government and remove Kim Jong Il. In fact as I have said NK has more to fear from China really than from the USA.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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Dutchy
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 9:31 pm

Tugger wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Technically north and south Korea are still at war. The border is the most heavenly militarized one in the world. North Korea is backed by China, the only assurance of its kind China has given. South Korea s backed by America. Then you have a regime which is such horrific to its people. And is openly hostile to others, also to have a basis to legitimize the North Korean regime for its people (most effective to have an outside treat if you want to form a group). But in doing all of this, the main focus is to survive. Because they must know that people in power will not survive a regime change, like we have seen in countless of cases.

OK, but that doesn't mean the USA will attack to decapitate the government and remove Kim Jong Il. In fact as I have said NK has more to fear from China really than from the USA.

Tugg


Tugg, in your mind and western view you are right. In the view of the NK regime not. This small risk is a big risk in the eyes of the NK regime, what do they have to fear from China in your eyes?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
salttee
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:17 pm

Okie wrote:
Come on quit the revision of history crap.

"revision of history crap" LOL - You don't remember Bush's "axis of evil" diplomacy?

In any event, I didn't start this finger pointing AirPacific747 did, I was just rebutting his accusation.
AirPacific747 wrote:
It's Obamas fault that we are now in this situation because he chose to ignore the "cancer" for 8 years. Now it's spread.

But I agree with cledaybuck.
cledaybuck wrote:
Blaming Bush, Clinton, Obama, Truman, etc. is pointless. U.S. policy towards North Korea hasn't changed much since the end of the Korean War. Unfortunately, it is up to the current president to deal with it now.

This bickering about who's at fault has no place in the discussion that was going on above.

LMP737 wrote:
For all you people who are gung ho about going after North Korea let me ask you a couple questions. Who are you willing to sacrifice in that little venture? Are you willing to sacrifice yourself? Maybe you have a loved one in mind instead. My point is the people rattling their sabers on this post probably don't have to worry about it too much.

The one rattling the saber is Mr. Kim. And the Kim family has been doing so since June, 1950. They have invaded the south, they have killed Americans whenever they have had the chance, they have sank South Korean ships. It is simply not permissible for them to develop the technology to nuke San Francisco or LA. This isn't a matter of war or no war, this is a matter of where the war will take place: their territory or our ours.
 
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cpd
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:17 pm

I think something must be done about the NK leadership now, and not later. We can't kick the can down the road for a later time, because by that later time NK might have ICBMs capable of hitting continental USA, Australia or other nations in the area with a nuclear warhead on them. That's too big a risk to take.

We have to accept that Seoul will probably be flattened and just have everyone evacuate under the pretext of an industrial emergency, and once they are all out, start the attack. I can't see any other way to deal with them that doesn't have similarly dire consequences. I think once it is done, we then have to sweep in and really spend the huge amount of money needed to prop up the country and make it functional.
 
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Tugger
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:40 am

Dutchy wrote:
Tugg, in your mind and western view you are right. In the view of the NK regime not. This small risk is a big risk in the eyes of the NK regime, what do they have to fear from China in your eyes?

Of course the NK regime has a different view point, why wouldn't they? And again I still think you are mis-assigning the distrust Kim has for China. They may prop him up but I suspect Kim does not trust anyone who is not him (in other words he only trusts himself). Regarding fearing China, NK is nothing but a problem to China, and as I noted, one they must prop up. Then add in a nuclear capability... do you seriously think China wants or trusts NK to have that capability?

I think China would very much love to change the leadership in NK and if they could engineer it they would. Can you think of any reason why they wouldn't (again imagine having a rouge leader like Kim on your border with nuclear weapons)? For Kim those weapons mean China has no easy way to confront him without a potentially large price, no way to pressure for regime change. China can't control Kim, and they cannot like that but they can't do anything about it.

China is most definitely a bigger threat to NK.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
salttee
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:38 am

Tugger wrote:
For Kim those weapons mean China has no easy way to confront him without a potentially large price, no way to pressure for regime change. China can't control Kim, and they cannot like that but they can't do anything about it.

China can seal the border. If they did that, Kim would be gone in 90 days (if Russia did the same.)
 
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Tugger
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:07 am

salttee wrote:
Tugger wrote:
For Kim those weapons mean China has no easy way to confront him without a potentially large price, no way to pressure for regime change. China can't control Kim, and they cannot like that but they can't do anything about it.

China can seal the border. If they did that, Kim would be gone in 90 days (if Russia did the same.)

And what would Kim do if backed into that kind of corner? If he was heading to oblivion, likely to be killed or executed by whoever took over, do you think he would say "Oh. OK...". Me? I think he'd rather throw some nukes rather than be killed and shown to be a complete loser.

If you view Kim's actions through the lens I am suggesting his actions make more sense.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
salttee
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:45 am

Tugger wrote:
And what would Kim do if backed into that kind of corner? If he was heading to oblivion, likely to be killed or executed by whoever took over, do you think he would say "Oh. OK...". Me? I think he'd rather throw some nukes rather than be killed and shown to be a complete loser.

If you view Kim's actions through the lens I am suggesting his actions make more sense.

Tugg


If he would do that, then he would do that at some point anyway. I think that with even China turned against them his orders would have a good chance of being ignored. And at that point he would understand that his personal threat was from within. I think he would stall until events overwhelmed him.

I also question whether the NK military has the wherewithal to actually deliver these nukes south of the DMZ.
 
LMP737
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:21 am

salttee wrote:
The one rattling the saber is Mr. Kim. And the Kim family has been doing so since June, 1950. They have invaded the south, they have killed Americans whenever they have had the chance, they have sank South Korean ships. It is simply not permissible for them to develop the technology to nuke San Francisco or LA. This isn't a matter of war or no war, this is a matter of where the war will take place: their territory or our ours.


Like I said before who are you willing to sacrifice? Obviously you are willing to sacrifice a lot of South Koreans because they will be the ones bearing the brunt. Easy to advocate military force form the comfort of your easy chair far away from the action.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
salttee
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:53 pm

LMP737 wrote:
Like I said before who are you willing to sacrifice? Obviously you are willing to sacrifice a lot of South Koreans because they will be the ones bearing the brunt. Easy to advocate military force form the comfort of your easy chair far away from the action.

We can do nothing about the threat to Seoul, but we can see to it that Kim won't be able to destroy San Francisco.
You should understand that it is not the US who is making the threat against Seoul. Direct your vitriol where it belongs.
And I served in the US Army, so don't throw the easy chair insult at me.
 
LMP737
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:48 pm

salttee wrote:
We can do nothing about the threat to Seoul,


Easy to say since you don't live in Seoul. Perhaps you would feel differently if it were the metropolitan area that you live in.

salttee wrote:
Direct your vitriol where it belongs


Pointing out facts is vitriol?

salttee wrote:
And I served in the US Army, so don't throw the easy chair insult at me.


You are no longer in the US Army which means that you don't have to worry about getting orders to South Korea. It also means you are rattling your saber from the comfort of your easy chair.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
salttee
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Wed Apr 19, 2017 8:44 pm

LMP737 wrote:
You are no longer in the US Army which means that you don't have to worry about getting orders to South Korea. It also means you are rattling your saber from the comfort of your easy chair.
It's comical to hear someone who obviously never served hurling personal attacks like this at someone who has. I guess in your view only someone on active duty with an MOS of 11B has a valid view on national defense. And that leaves you out too.
 
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Aesma
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:09 pm

Precisely, this is not national defense. This is making war far from your shores.

I think the US attitude would be really different if it had known modern war on its soil, like Europe, Russia, Japan, and many other places have.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
salttee
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:20 pm

Aesma wrote:
Precisely, this is not national defense. This is making war far from your shores.

Precisely this is 100% about national defense. Kim's reach for nuclear weapons and now the ability to launch them on ballistic missiles is the reason for the current circumstance.

Aesma wrote:
I think the US attitude would be really different if it had known modern war on its soil, like Europe, Russia, Japan, and many other places have.

Like what kept France out of Vietnam, Algeria or Libya and is currently keeping them out of Mali?
 
bhill
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:12 pm

par13del wrote:
So when was the last time that the allies had any consensus on North Korea and what exactly did they accomplish?
Like India, Pakistan and others who attempted, if you start a nuclear program the west will pay you to not develop the capability while you develop it and when you are complete it they will not welcome you into the club but will tolerate you, in the meantime, the millions that they gave you will allow you to feed your people while you divert your funds to the nuclear program.



Actually, this sounds like extortion...unless you give us what we want we will build nukes and scare the whole neighborhood...here is the clue..don't build nukes if you do not have the civilians in control of the military. THEY cause an issue and WE get blamed???
Carpe Pices
 
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Aesma
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:16 am

Indochina and North Africa were French territories. I have a grandfather born in the first and a grandmother born in the second. In the four frontrunners to the current presidential race in France, one was born in Tangier. Mali used to be French, and its legitimate government called for help to prevent its overthrow by Islamists.

If North Korea starts shooting, I have no problem with the US coming to the defense of its ally. But that's not what this is about. This is about preventive war. Again.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
salttee
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:47 am

Your nationalism is showing. You do know that don't you?
 
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:27 am

Aesma wrote:
Indochina and North Africa were French territories. I have a grandfather born in the first and a grandmother born in the second. In the four frontrunners to the current presidential race in France, one was born in Tangier. Mali used to be French, and its legitimate government called for help to prevent its overthrow by Islamists.

If North Korea starts shooting, I have no problem with the US coming to the defense of its ally. But that's not what this is about. This is about preventive war. Again.


France has always been a colonial power. The US has never in the same scale or anything close to that invaded different countries with the intent to expand its territory.

France has been the aggressor on many occasions when looking back in history. So you as a Frenchman trying to tell the US that they cannot defend themselves regardless of if you agree with this being self defense or not is a bit of a joke.

In my view, this is truly a situation that has something to do with self defense. Because that will be the situation in a decade from now perhaps. Then NK will still have a lunatic leader and then they can start threatening the US on a daily basis. I'm sure you wouldn't be happy with being targeted by for example Libya with nuclear weapons constantly either.
 
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Aesma
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:26 am

Actually if you attack there will be worldwide condemnation, only the couple of bought states which usually side with you (colonies if not in name in practice) will agree to call it "self-defense".
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
salttee
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:38 am

Getting rid of this 67 year old problem that was in no way caused by any US action (you were in favor of US involvement in WW2, weren't you) would far outweigh any whining from the bystanders.
 
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Aesma
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:57 pm

salttee wrote:
Your nationalism is showing. You do know that don't you?


But of course taking upon yourself, against all international laws and conventions, to attack a country unilaterally, because you can, is not nationalism ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
salttee
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:14 pm

Aesma wrote:
salttee wrote:
Your nationalism is showing. You do know that don't you?


But of course taking upon yourself, against all international laws and conventions, to attack a country unilaterally, because you can, is not nationalism ?

Self defense is not against the law. I assure you that I'm not nationalist in outlook or political belief.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:50 pm

AirPacific747 wrote:
Aesma wrote:

France has always been a colonial power. The US has never in the same scale or anything close to that invaded different countries with the intent to expand its territory.
Native Americans may disagree.
 
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:25 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
AirPacific747 wrote:
Aesma wrote:

France has always been a colonial power. The US has never in the same scale or anything close to that invaded different countries with the intent to expand its territory.
Native Americans may disagree.


So might those in the remains of the old Spanish empire at the end the 19th/beginning of the 20th centuries, when they found themselves under US rule.
Some liked it so much the US was involved in what would now be called 'counter insurgency' in the Philippines.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:47 pm

GDB wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
AirPacific747 wrote:
Native Americans may disagree.


So might those in the remains of the old Spanish empire at the end the 19th/beginning of the 20th centuries, when they found themselves under US rule.
Some liked it so much the US was involved in what would now be called 'counter insurgency' in the Philippines.
Yep, the Spanish-American and Mexican-American wars both came to mind. In the end, is manifest destiny that much different than colonialism?
 
LMP737
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:41 pm

salttee wrote:
It's comical to hear someone who obviously never served hurling personal attacks like this at someone who has. I guess in your view only someone on active duty with an MOS of 11B has a valid view on national defense. And that leaves you out too.


Twelve years my friend, four years active another eight in the reserves. And if your so gung ho reup.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
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Mortyman
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:17 pm

salttee wrote:
And I served in the US Army, so don't throw the easy chair insult at me.


Then you should also understand the limitations of using military force
 
salttee
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:52 pm

Mortyman wrote:
Then you should also understand the limitations of using military force

In this case, the danger to the US is far greater if nothing is done. This North Korean regime has a long and violent history behind it, and the current Mr Kim gives every indication of adding insanity to the normal unrestrained callousness that family has been known for.

It would be dereliction of duty for our leaders to allow him to develop a functioning ICBM system which would allow him to vaporize the core of an American city on his whim.
 
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:31 am

salttee wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
Then you should also understand the limitations of using military force

In this case, the danger to the US is far greater if nothing is done. This North Korean regime has a long and violent history behind it, and the current Mr Kim gives every indication of adding insanity to the normal unrestrained callousness that family has been known for.

It would be dereliction of duty for our leaders to allow him to develop a functioning ICBM system which would allow him to vaporize the core of an American city on his whim.


The "North Korean regime" is doing its best in what it needs to do - protect its country and its citizens, from "democratic bombing" of the USA. Everyone saw the examples of "New Democratic" countries Iraq, Lybia, Syria, Ukraine - none of those countries is better in any regard than North Korea. And they showed to everyone that the best way to avoid such "democratization" is a nuke, together with ICBM. And this is what made the problem of North Korean nuclear weapons virtually unsolvable.
So once the North Korea gets the bomb and ICBM capable of reaching the USA, the US doesn't get anyone to blame but themselves, and their catastrophic failures of past decades.
 
salttee
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Fri Apr 21, 2017 6:25 am

anrec80 wrote:
The "North Korean regime" is doing its best in what it needs to do - protect its country and its citizens, from "democratic bombing" of the USA. Everyone saw the examples of "New Democratic" countries Iraq, Lybia, Syria, Ukraine - none of those countries is better in any regard than North Korea. And they showed to everyone that the best way to avoid such "democratization" is a nuke, together with ICBM. And this is what made the problem of North Korean nuclear weapons virtually unsolvable.
So once the North Korea gets the bomb and ICBM capable of reaching the USA, the US doesn't get anyone to blame but themselves, and their catastrophic failures of past decades.

Utter nonsense.

The entire problem from day one is a creation of the founder of the Kim Dynasty see post #4 viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1360813#p19483209

They started an unnecessary war at the behest of Stalin and the Soviet arms industry. They have refused, and currently continue to refuse to accept status quo; they refuse a peace agreement. They were the aggressors in the beginning and have been ever since. The Kim Dynasty has turned the population into drones, they have created a society devoid of culture, they have built nukes and now they want ICBMs. They have turned hate for the United States into their national anthem. Kim's government hosts plays (the height of culture in most places) that have burning American cities as the theme. That's the height of their culture: propaganda. And on top of all that they're weak, all they have is the power to destroy. They don't even have the ability to defend themselves.

They are sickos, and now they want ICBMs.

They're not going to have them.
Get used to it.
 
anrec80
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:57 am

salttee wrote:
Utter nonsense.

The entire problem from day one is a creation of the founder of the Kim Dynasty see post #4 viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1360813#p19483209

They started an unnecessary war at the behest of Stalin and the Soviet arms industry. They have refused, and currently continue to refuse to accept status quo; they refuse a peace agreement. They were the aggressors in the beginning and have been ever since. The Kim Dynasty has turned the population into drones, they have created a society devoid of culture, they have built nukes and now they want ICBMs. They have turned hate for the United States into their national anthem. Kim's government hosts plays (the height of culture in most places) that have burning American cities as the theme. That's the height of their culture: propaganda. And on top of all that they're weak, all they have is the power to destroy. They don't even have the ability to defend themselves.

They are sickos, and now they want ICBMs.

They're not going to have them.
Get used to it.


Which part of what I said is nonsense? Compare - how many wars did the USA start in the past 20 years and how many did North Korea start? And all of those nations will start hating you once they get out of the post-war state after American military intrusion, North Korea won't be the only one. Don't they have grounds to?

The Kim Dynasty is 67 years old, and a lot happened since. In 90s there was a good window of opportunity to somehow get North Korean leadership talk to South Korean one, but Nothing was done. Then the USA decided that they rather have an enemy, and made a few ot of "dictator regimes", which they successfully "defeated" mostly, albeit problems for themselves. And Kim decided that he needs to start work on nuke and ICBM - a perfectly reasonable decision given circumstances.

Speaking of propaganda and hate - yes, there may be some of that. However, these things are also used by different groups inside Democratic and Republican parties - to raise funds, lobbying, to get more votes. Russophobia common in the US Congress is notable example, with imaginary "Ukrainian aggression" (despite that for 3 years nobody saw an aggressor, neither dead nor alive), then "election intrusion" tales (as if anyone from outside can elect the USA president). Some European countries (not only eastern ones) also use such tactics to not draw attention to lack of successes in their nation building. I am not defending such things and believe they are bad, and ultimately don't do any good to the country that uses them, but they are more widespread than I want to see them be.
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:09 am

China puts bomber fleet on "high alert" as the Chinese condemn the DPRK at the UN:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/04/20/politics/ ... index.html
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
salttee
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:11 pm

anrec80 wrote:
Don't they have grounds to? (hate the US)

I know of no reason for NK to "hate" or even be angry with US actions in Korea in the last 72 years.

Please enlighten me.
 
wingman
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:00 pm

Setting aside all sidebar debates and the history of the world to rationalize N. Korea's actions..it remains true that they initiated the Korean War in 1950 (that is a known and proven fact) and to this day exist in a technical state of war with S. Korea. Look then to the state of N. Korea's lunatic policies of internal repression and the ravages of a command economy on its own people. The ultimate offense though is the continued testing and lobbing of missile towards S. Korea, Japan and the United States. That shit has to stop and better to stop it now than before there's an arsenal capable of total obliteration of any one or two of these countries and the automatic consequence for all of us which which be the total meltdown of the world economy. To defend the actions of this regime is to be a complete naif, the logic isn't logical at all, it's just reprehensible. Even China is starting to get it, the last thing they want is 20M refugees streaming across the border wondering what happened to 1954. I'm no fan of Trump but if the tactics of the past 20 years haven't worked I do like a new approach to mix things up. Note that China is actually starting to wonder if the US might actually be just crazy enough to go in hot, and that might be all it takes to have them convince Kim that the gig is up, drop the nukes or you can all starve to death.
 
LMP737
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:45 pm

wingman wrote:
That shit has to stop and better to stop it now than before there's an arsenal capable of total obliteration of any one or two of these countries and the automatic consequence for all of us which which be the total meltdown of the world economy. .


Launch a preemptive attack and that's what you probably will end up having.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
mham001
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:44 pm

GDB wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
AirPacific747 wrote:
Native Americans may disagree.


So might those in the remains of the old Spanish empire at the end the 19th/beginning of the 20th centuries, when they found themselves under US rule.
Some liked it so much the US was involved in what would now be called 'counter insurgency' in the Philippines.


And yet, the US did far more for the Philippines in 40 years than European colonial subjugation did in 300 - including giving them freedom.
 
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Classa64
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Sat Apr 22, 2017 3:38 am

Just curious... I have read and watched a bit about the country and its leaders, some history etc. But this nut running North Korea; He cant be that stupid to think that he can just launch missiles of any capacity at any county on this planet and think that he wont be a big smoking hole in the ground the second he hits the button? I mean there are so many countries and people that wish this guy would just drop dead. China seems to be the big brother telling the younger one to sit down and relax, go about your own life and keep the peace or your going to get you ass handed to you. I guess though, if crap hits the fan and at some point we will reach it, you don't have to feel sorry for the people of that country because with his death grip, brainwashing and control over any information they see they will never see it coming anyway, I guess that beats him starving them to death.

What is it in simple terms that this guy wants?
( Other than death to anyone involved and including the U.S.A)
"Freedom is the miles i'm rolling on"
 
anrec80
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:04 am

Classa64 wrote:

What is it in simple terms that this guy wants?
( Other than death to anyone involved and including the U.S.A)


It's not that complex. "This guy" is doing what he needs to to as any country's leader - working on making sure his statehood remains strong inside, and that he can protect his nation from outside threats. He is just doing his job; that includes nuclear and missile programs. The whole world has seen examples of bombing Libya and Iraq, fate of Qaddafi, Saddam Hussein, now Assad. None of those countries is any better than NK today. Expectedly, the only guarantee Kim sees that a thing like this won't happen to his country is a nuclear weapons with ballistic missiles. Even Ukraine after Western intrusion in 2014 is arguably better than NK, and not in all regards. That's pretty much all he wants. No death to anyone necessarily.
 
anrec80
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:12 am

salttee wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Don't they have grounds to? (hate the US)

I know of no reason for NK to "hate" or even be angry with US actions in Korea in the last 72 years.

Please enlighten me.


OK. Who is constantly doing military maneuvers involving "major police mission", "regime change" and the likes next to their borders? Who has track record of "changing regimes" in the whole world, with disastrous consequences? Who stuffs the Korean peninsula with Thaad "defenses" and a whole bunch of other weapons? It's certainly not "the regime".
 
anrec80
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:32 am

wingman wrote:
That shit has to stop and better to stop it now than before there's an arsenal capable of total obliteration of any one or two of these countries

OK - go ahead and stop. The USA already "stopped the shit" in Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya. Any results? Did anything improve? If you really want to stop that - then the 2 Koreas on that peninsula somehow need to stop looking at each other via an aim of some weapon and start talking - re-establish contacts, let people find their relatives across the border, and re-learn to work together. Then it has a chance to stop.

wingman wrote:
I'm no fan of Trump but if the tactics of the past 20 years haven't worked I do like a new approach to mix things up.

Yes, I think that doing foreign policy the way Trump does it now - it's better to not do it at all. Tillerson went to Putin - despite all the tough talks and yelling "there were no threat of sanctions". Trump sent "Carl Winson" carrier to Korea - all it took Kim was a military parade and yet another missile test, and the aircraft carrier "isn't going there", and "the White House was misunderstood". Now - who and where on this planet will now take this administration seriously?

wingman wrote:
To defend the actions of this regime is to be a complete naif, the logic isn't logical at all, it's just reprehensible.

What is not naif then? Believe that some American lunatics (and there are plenty of those in Washington DC) won't start bombing and trying to "change the regime" one day? Kim doesn't believe in this obviously; the whole world has seen enough examples.
 
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Tugger
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:47 am

The nobility some are assigning to Kim is incredible. "Ensuring their statehood stays strong", "Maintaining the nation". Sorry that is not the correct answer to "what this guy wants". This guy only wants for himself to be in control and to live in complete luxury with that control. And he will use his ~25 million to prop himself, and the cronies that will bow to his will, up. He is a despot.

There is nothing noble about Kim and his rule or intentions.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
anrec80
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:55 am

Tugger wrote:
The nobility some are assigning to Kim is incredible. "Ensuring their statehood stays strong", "Maintaining the nation". Sorry that is not the correct answer to "what this guy wants". This guy only wants for himself to be in control and to live in complete luxury with that control. And he will use his ~25 million to prop himself, and the cronies that will bow to his will, up. He is a despot.

There is nothing noble about Kim and his rule or intentions.

Tugg


Did I ever said there is something "noble"? "Ensuring their statehood stays strong" - regardless of wants, it's his first and primary responsibility. Any leader or a president has it. There are some that don't want to do it, but their countries suffer from severe problems at best. Speaking of control, his desires and his likes, "despotism" - it's between him and his nation. He can't run the country for that long in the present environment if there were significant unhappiness about him. North Koreans themselves have to figure that out; it's not someone else's business - who and how runs their country. It's not my business and, unless you are a North Korean citizen - not yours either. Sorry.
 
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Tugger
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Sat Apr 22, 2017 5:00 am

anrec80 wrote:
Did I ever said there is something "noble"? "Ensuring their statehood stays strong" - regardless of wants, it's his first and primary responsibility. Any leader or a president has it.

That, right there, is assigning something that does not exist: "primary responsibility" "Any leader has it". "It"? You are saying the noble mantle of power and protection of his people? Not.

Kim is a thug, he was raised as one and to believe (the poor child!) he is deserving of being the god-power penultimate focus of his country. The people don't matter, the nation doesn't matter, They are only a means to an end: His comfort and glory.

Again, he is a despot. Nothing more.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
anrec80
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Sat Apr 22, 2017 5:10 am

Tugger wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Did I ever said there is something "noble"? "Ensuring their statehood stays strong" - regardless of wants, it's his first and primary responsibility. Any leader or a president has it.

That, right there, is assigning something that does not exist: "primary responsibility" "Any leader has it". "It"? You are saying the noble mantle of power and protection of his people? Not.

Kim is a thug, he was raised as one and to believe (the poor child!) he is deserving of being the god-power penultimate focus of his country. The people don't matter, the nation doesn't matter, They are only a means to an end: His comfort and glory.

Again, he is a despot. Nothing more.

Tugg


Tugg - as I said, protecting the territory and sovereignty of his country and his nation is THE PRIMARY RESPONSIBILITY of any leader, any government, any state. Regardless whether it's North Korea, USA, Russia, Iran or some other country. Nothing to do with any sorts of "nobility" - it's a responsibility alongside with many others. And speaking of glory and comfort. If you ask any of those whom you consider a "dictator" or a "despot" a simple question "do you want to run your country until the day you die?" - most answers will be "no". Putin said that outright, Belarus president (who has been there for over 2 decades) said even stronger "I am fed up with this presidency". I am sure Kim will answer to this question similarly one day. It's a dog job, full of responsibilities, fights, politics, etc. Certainly nothing to do with comfort.
 
salttee
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Sat Apr 22, 2017 6:10 am

anrec80, I feel a bit naive, up until now I didn't realize that you were just touting the Russian party line.

This snippet from your posting history tells me all I need to know in order to understand your point of view.
anrec80 wrote:
Who cares about Ukraine? It's a totally failed state, a territory without any social structures and with uncontrolled gangs of "patriots" who think that once they kicked out Yanukovich they can do whatever they feel like. In order to use word "pro-Ukrainian" there has to be a state of Ukraine, but there isn't.

And I can now understand your 20 year timeline here.
anrec80 wrote:
Compare - how many wars did the USA start in the past 20 years and how many did North Korea start?
You consider the US stopping a genocide in the Balkans as "starting a war", that's why you used "20 years." Yes, we had an idiot for a president from 2001 until 2008 and he started a tragic and unnecessary war in Iraq and he mishandled what was a justified operation in Afghanistan. But the real answer to your above question is that the Kim Dynasty started the war on the Korean peninsula 67 years ago and have continued hostilities ever since, and that's all that matters in this conversation.

You offered no rebuttal to the actual history of the conflict posted above; instead you jumped into the thread as if you were a neutral party only interested in justice.
 
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Tugger
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Sat Apr 22, 2017 7:12 am

anrec80 wrote:
Tugg - as I said, protecting the territory and sovereignty of his country and his nation is THE PRIMARY RESPONSIBILITY of any leader, any government, any state. Regardless whether it's North Korea, USA, Russia, Iran or some other country. Nothing to do with any sorts of "nobility" - it's a responsibility alongside with many others. And speaking of glory and comfort. If you ask any of those whom you consider a "dictator" or a "despot" a simple question "do you want to run your country until the day you die?" - most answers will be "no". Putin said that outright, Belarus president (who has been there for over 2 decades) said even stronger "I am fed up with this presidency". I am sure Kim will answer to this question similarly one day. It's a dog job, full of responsibilities, fights, politics, etc. Certainly nothing to do with comfort.

And my point is that does not describe Kim. He is not responsible, does not protect his country, he only protects himself. He does not accept, or at least exhibit that he does, any responsibility for his people or nation, He does nothing that any true leader of a country does. He hides and cowers from the rest of the world. It is not a job for him to do, it is essentially reversed in his situation. It has become the job of the nation to provide Kim with protection and sovereignty. The country must perform for him, the country must forego comfort and endure the burden that is Kim.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
anrec80
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Sat Apr 22, 2017 8:03 am

salttee wrote:
anrec80, I feel a bit naive, up until now I didn't realize that you were just touting the Russian party line.


I'll be honest with you - I am ethnic Russian, though have lived in quite a few countries. Nothing to do with party lines.

salttee wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Who cares about Ukraine? It's a totally failed state, a territory without any social structures and with uncontrolled gangs of "patriots" who think that once they kicked out Yanukovich they can do whatever they feel like. In order to use word "pro-Ukrainian" there has to be a state of Ukraine, but there isn't.

And I can now understand your 20 year timeline here.

Yes, I said that a while ago and am even more confident that this is the case than ever. In fact, I have been born and raised in Ukraine, and perhaps better than most others understand these topics, including this Korean one. See, what went on in Ukraine in 2014 is pretty much the same thing as went on in Korea 67 years ago, with one notable difference - Koreans were extremely lucky that there wasn't an idiot on either side who ordered to open fire at his own people on other side. Ukraine wasn't so lucky, and quite a few of such "specimen" were brought to power in Kiev. They turned out to be so incompetent that managed to fail everything, even what seemed impossible to fail, and more than once. Now - the country is a failure, primarily because the idea of Ukraine as a country and Ukrainians as a nation isn't in demand even among the people who live in that territory. 2/3 of them either are leaving it or would have left if they could.

salttee wrote:
anrec80 wrote:
Compare - how many wars did the USA start in the past 20 years and how many did North Korea start?

You consider the US stopping a genocide in the Balkans as "starting a war", that's why you used "20 years." Yes, we had an idiot for a president from 2001 until 2008 and he started a tragic and unnecessary war in Iraq and he mishandled what was a justified operation in Afghanistan.

Perhaps I should clarify - Balkan is the only one you kind of managed to end. "Kind of" because even there the result is questionable at best. You may have stopped one genocide but started another, plus you brought to power quite odious dudes with strong reputation of all sorts of "funky" things. You acknowledged Kosovo. What's there now? Government in Prishtina living off Western grants, Bondsteel air base, ISIS camps around it, "black hole" in Europe with all sorts of illegal trade and some poor farmers trying to survive in the middle of all that. Are ordinary Kosovo people any better? It's hard to make that case.

Next - yes, you had an idiot from 2001 to 2008. His successor in Libya, Syria and Ukraine was even worse - the first one at least tried to correct some mistakes, the second one didn't bother with anything and continued previous mistakes (such as trying to use terrorist groups for some of their tasks). In fact, the policy of Bush Jr. during his second term, when Condoleezza Rice was the Secretary, was the most adequate (no new wars at least). The current one - I still have some hope, but for now he's just putting on a show. Out of all presidents of 21st century - the "idiot" you mentioned was the perhaps the best one. And if a nation chooses 3 presidents in a row, where each subsequent one has more failures than his predecessor - the problem clearly isn't in any of the presidents.

salttee wrote:

But the real answer to your above question is that the Kim Dynasty started the war on the Korean peninsula 67 years ago and have continued hostilities ever since, and that's all that matters in this conversation.
You offered no rebuttal to the actual history of the conflict posted above; instead you jumped into the thread as if you were a neutral party only interested in justice.

When it comes to Korean conflict, I do consider myself a neutral party, yes. What did I say in previous comments? The 2 Koreas should stop aiming at each other and start talking somehow. What problem do you see here? 67 years is a long time, and there were opportunities for that. Such opportunities can always be found, if both parties want them. Yes, history can be hard and overcoming it is harder, but regardless they need to start talking somehow. There is no other way. The South still believes they can "reunite in a democratic way" and it all will be hunky-dory, like nothing ever happened. It's nothing but an illusion. And what the "justice" is, and even whether it's needed at all - it's up to both of them, and it's nobody else's business - neither Russian, nor American, nor Chinese for this purpose.
 
LMP737
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Sat Apr 22, 2017 4:07 pm

anrec80 wrote:

The "North Korean regime" is doing its best in what it needs to do - protect its country and its citizens, .


If you read the accounts of people who have escaped North Korea concern for it's citizens is way down on the list for Kim and his band of merry men. If it were they wouldn't have a nuclear program to begin with.
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