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pylon101
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The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:31 am

I believe there are not many sympathizers of the North Korean regime here.
However, a unilateral U.S.military action can not be accepted as a viable option.
There are many reasons. Here are just some.

1) Any unilateral military action which may have nuclear engagement as a result would be a catastrophe.
My country Russia has just 20 km of the border with North Korea. China has a much longer border.
But Vladivostok is less than 100 km from the border.
North Korean underground tests were done pretty close to the Russian (and Chinese) border: about 150 km from Vladivostok.
Russians and Chinese are already completely mad about this development.

2) The U.S. military action may have dire consequences. And for South Koreans - first of all.
Neither South Korea nor Japan have asked for the U.S. military involvement.

3) As it used to be, such an action would be completely illegal. But unlike "flexing muscles" in Syria and Afghanistan, even one nuclear explosion can seriously affect the whole region in all respects.

4) Legally, North Korea will react the unlawful attack - no matter what the motives would be.
North Korea left NPT in full compliance with the Treaty's terms. This factor simply can not be ignored.

I am quite concerned. Here in the D.C. Area, the majority's considerations are weird. MSM are crazy.
It is like I am in a movie where the notorious phrase "Because I Can" is becoming the reality.
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Aesma
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:34 am

I sure hope Trump is talking to his allies and all are saying they don't want a military intervention.

I'm sorry but a crazy leader shouting death to the US is not a valid reason to attack a country.
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TheF15Ace
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:55 am

I agree wholeheartedly with pylon101. Easy to talk shit when you're safe and sound 1000s of miles away. Good money says the tough guys both in and out of the government wouldn't be so gung ho about going into NK if they were actually living within range of little Kim's artillery.

There are ways to get rid of that fat fuck, but our fat fuck getting into a tiny dick measuring contest with him is not it.

(Same goes for our continuous involvement in the middle east. Easy for us to screw the place up time and time again when we live half the world away)
 
salttee
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:44 am

pylon101 wrote:
My country Russia has just 20 km of the border with North Korea. China has a much longer border.
But Vladivostok is less than 100 km from the border.
This is a problem that your country created and nurtured from the spring of 1950 until the current day. China may have been wronged in the Fall of 1950 by the actions of an incompetent American General, they may have had reason for complaint at one time (but they have nurtured this problem for far too long). Russia has not a ghost of a reason for complaint. You brought this one on - this whole Korean disaster episode is your creation. We now have the grandson of the guy that your country armed and supplied for the purpose of attacking the homeward bound US military in charge of an insane asylum of a country. In June of 1950 the US was on its way out, Truman was about as far from being an imperialist as can be imagined. The Secretary of State has publicly announced that Korea was in the near future to be outside the US's area of interest. Your boy, Stalin wanted to stick it to the Americans, this was to be payback for British and American operations in East Europe. You've been milking it far too long.

If you don't want nukes going off in your back yard, then solve the problem yourselves. The nuke threat comes from your friends. We don't need nukes to take out Kim's threat. The base reality is that Mr Kim has to come to a complete stop. Continuing as before is not an option. The monster regime which issues nuclear threats on a monthly basis will not be allowed to continue to develop ICBM technology. This problem is yours. We are not going to allow continued rocket development or nuclear tests from this regime. You solve it or we solve it. If you actually care, you'll solve it.

The U.S. military action may have dire consequences.
So it may. But if there's to be a threat of a nuclear exchange it is the obligation of our civilian and military leaders to see to it that any exchange happens in the other guy's neighbor hood: not ours. That is a simple matter of self preservation, every nation is entitled to that.

And for South Koreans - first of all.
Are you pretending to speak for the South Koreans?

Neither South Korea nor Japan have asked for the U.S. military involvement.
That is a subject that you know nothing about. You are trying to create discord where there is none.

As it used to be, such an action would be completely illegal.
Self preservation is legal.

But unlike "flexing muscles" in Syria and Afghanistan, even one nuclear explosion can seriously affect the whole region in all respects.
Well then I think that all interested parties would best be served by bringing the whole nagging problem to an end without threat of a nuclear device being used.

pylon101 wrote:
Legally, North Korea will react the unlawful attack - no matter what the motives would be.
North Korea left NPT in full compliance with the Treaty's terms.
This factor simply can not be ignored.
That doesn't even enter into the equation.

pylon101 wrote:
I am quite concerned. Here in the D.C. Area, the majority's considerations are weird. MSM are crazy.
It is like I am in a movie where the notorious phrase "Because I Can" is becoming the reality.
it's called realpolitik
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salttee
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:49 am

Aesma wrote:
I sure hope Trump is talking to his allies and all are saying they don't want a military intervention.

I'm sorry but a crazy leader shouting death to the US is not a valid reason to attack a country.

And he has channeled his entire nation's national effort to building an utterly unneeded offensive military capability.
And while this is going on, as you say, he's "shouting death to the US".

That has to be stopped.
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AirPacific747
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:01 am

+1 salttee. Well said.
 
Mir
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:29 am

Look, I don't want the US to act unilaterally in North Korea either, for all the reasons you mentioned, but let's be honest here:

You were strident in your support of the candidate most likely to take just such action. Elections have consequences.
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MaverickM11
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:31 am

salttee wrote:
Aesma wrote:
I sure hope Trump is talking to his allies and all are saying they don't want a military intervention.

I'm sorry but a crazy leader shouting death to the US is not a valid reason to attack a country.

And he has channeled his entire nation's national effort to building an utterly unneeded offensive military capability.
And while this is going on, as you say, he's "shouting death to the US".

That has to be stopped.

That's been a constant for literally decades. The only new piece of information is the US now has an unpredictable nutjob in charge as well. And while the pressure on China is welcome and the generals are probably going to stop him from doing anything too stupid, who knows what North Korea will do when Trump inevitably shoots off his mouth.
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salttee
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:49 am

MaverickM11 wrote:
That's been a constant for literally decades. The only new piece of information is the US now has an unpredictable nutjob in charge as well. And while the pressure on China is welcome and the generals are probably going to stop him from doing anything too stupid, who knows what North Korea will do when Trump inevitably shoots off his mouth.


I think the generals are 100% behind this. This is the moment to act, we have a president who agrees to take it wherever it needs to go and the N. Koreans are on the verge of having the ability to launch a nuke on a rocket at Japan: possibly within months. This is the time to stop them. The only possible reason to delay would be to wait until we have a few hundred F-35Cs operational; they would be helpful. It doesn't matter whether it's then or now, if it's going to happen (and it's obviously going to happen at some point fairly soon). If we wait any longer then our ally Japan comes under imminent threat.

The time is now.
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seb146
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:09 am

When was the last time DPRK set off a bomb within the United States? They are trying to launch rockets more than a few miles off their coast. I think the United States' biggest threat now, more than ever, is IS. Even more now that the orange menace decided to escalate things instead of taking care of them in the first 30 days of his term like he said he would...
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Benjuhman
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:40 am

I think that in the end, North Korea is acting like a whinny toddler who doesn't get what it wants and there's no real logic behind dealing with Kim-Jong Un.
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salttee
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:47 am

seb146 wrote:
When was the last time DPRK set off a bomb within the United States?


Do axe murders count?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axe_murder_incident
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Francoflier
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:47 am

Well, Pylon, I thought you and the rest of the Putin-lovers were big fans of Trump? what happened to the confidence and cockiness?

Trump, much like your beloved leader, is a warmonger. He seems to blindly follow the hints and cues of the military lobbies and appears keen on renewing military tensions and finding himself a war to fight to assert his position as the big powerful he fancies himself to be and try to rally the overall unsympathetic public opinion against an imaginary foe he will have designated.

You are not a stranger to the method, surely, as your leader uses it himself. Does it now scare you because it's happening right at your border?

You reap what you sow, and you sowed a lot of angry and hateful rhetoric...
:innocent:
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Tugger
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:21 am

Reminds me a bit of this:
Image
Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb

The odd comment I will make is to remind those objecting to the current tactics of the popular definition of insanity:
"Insanity: Doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.

So while I cannot say I think this is the best course of action, it has for the first time actually had an impact and gotten previously recalcitrant nations attention.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
jupiter2
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:14 am

That's the thing with this looney, if he does start shooting missiles and artillery shells off, every nation within range will be a target. China, Russia, South Korea, Japan and anything remotely associated with the U.S, will in some shape or form be targeted.Because once the shooting does start and finish, there won't be much left of North Korea and they are insane/brainwashed enough to try and cause as much destruction to the rest of the world in perceived retaliation. I would be as worried in Beijing as being in Seoul.
 
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:43 am

It really is time to get rid of this regime as it is causing major headaches around the world.
 
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:34 pm

If Trump does this, many more people will shout death to the US after than before. Is that his goal ?

salttee wrote:
MaverickM11 wrote:
That's been a constant for literally decades. The only new piece of information is the US now has an unpredictable nutjob in charge as well. And while the pressure on China is welcome and the generals are probably going to stop him from doing anything too stupid, who knows what North Korea will do when Trump inevitably shoots off his mouth.


I think the generals are 100% behind this. This is the moment to act, we have a president who agrees to take it wherever it needs to go and the N. Koreans are on the verge of having the ability to launch a nuke on a rocket at Japan: possibly within months. This is the time to stop them. The only possible reason to delay would be to wait until we have a few hundred F-35Cs operational; they would be helpful. It doesn't matter whether it's then or now, if it's going to happen (and it's obviously going to happen at some point fairly soon). If we wait any longer then our ally Japan comes under imminent threat.

The time is now.


Yet Japan and South Korea don't want that military intervention.
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KLDC10
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:46 pm

salttee wrote:
I think the generals are 100% behind this. This is the moment to act, we have a president who agrees to take it wherever it needs to go and the N. Koreans are on the verge of having the ability to launch a nuke on a rocket at Japan: possibly within months. This is the time to stop them. The only possible reason to delay would be to wait until we have a few hundred F-35Cs operational; they would be helpful. It doesn't matter whether it's then or now, if it's going to happen (and it's obviously going to happen at some point fairly soon). If we wait any longer then our ally Japan comes under imminent threat.

The time is now.


Surprised to say this, but I agree with you 100%. As soon as North Korea improves their nuclear program to the point where they can attack Japan, or perhaps even US Territories in the Pacific, then it will be too late. Kim is mad enough to actually launch a nuclear missile, and he cannot be allowed to get to the point that he is able to do so. A rogue state with nuclear capabilities is too much of a risk.
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:02 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
salttee wrote:
I think the generals are 100% behind this. This is the moment to act, we have a president who agrees to take it wherever it needs to go and the N. Koreans are on the verge of having the ability to launch a nuke on a rocket at Japan: possibly within months. This is the time to stop them. The only possible reason to delay would be to wait until we have a few hundred F-35Cs operational; they would be helpful. It doesn't matter whether it's then or now, if it's going to happen (and it's obviously going to happen at some point fairly soon). If we wait any longer then our ally Japan comes under imminent threat.

The time is now.


Surprised to say this, but I agree with you 100%. As soon as North Korea improves their nuclear program to the point where they can attack Japan, or perhaps even US Territories in the Pacific, then it will be too late. Kim is mad enough to actually launch a nuclear missile, and he cannot be allowed to get to the point that he is able to do so. A rogue state with nuclear capabilities is too much of a risk.


I think the regime isn't mad, they need something like a nucleair bomb so America doesn't attack. Nobody benefits from a nucleair exchange.
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:30 pm

Dutchy wrote:
I think the regime isn't mad, they need something like a nucleair bomb so America doesn't attack. Nobody benefits from a nucleair exchange.


A regime which elevates dead leaders to a god-like status fits my definition of being mad. I genuinely believe that if Kim had the capability to launch a nuclear strike, and felt that it was his absolute last resort (ie. that the walls were closing in around him), he would do so. The mentality of the regime is confounding.

Perhaps they do seek a nuclear weapon as a deterrent. I have read a number of articles suggesting that the regime seeks weapons as a means to bring America to the negotiating table and perhaps even receive truckloads of aid. That too is unacceptable, because it would provide the vile dictatorship with the upper hand in negotiations.
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:37 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
I think the regime isn't mad, they need something like a nucleair bomb so America doesn't attack. Nobody benefits from a nucleair exchange.


A regime which elevates dead leaders to a god-like status fits my definition of being mad. I genuinely believe that if Kim had the capability to launch a nuclear strike, and felt that it was his absolute last resort (ie. that the walls were closing in around him), he would do so. The mentality of the regime is confounding.

Yes, if the survival of the regime is at stake, he will be mad enough to launch them, so don't put the regime in that situation.

KLDC10 wrote:
Perhaps they do seek a nuclear weapon as a deterrent. I have read a number of articles suggesting that the regime seeks weapons as a means to bring America to the negotiating table and perhaps even receive truckloads of aid. That too is unacceptable, because it would provide the vile dictatorship with the upper hand in negotiations.


That boat has sailed in the mid 1990's. Now they do have the bomb, around five of them.
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:43 pm

KLDC10 wrote:
A regime which elevates dead leaders to a god-like status fits my definition of being mad. I genuinely believe that if Kim had the capability to launch a nuclear strike, and felt that it was his absolute last resort (ie. that the walls were closing in around him), he would do so. The mentality of the regime is confounding.


The regime isn't mad, they are being perfectly rational by doing whatever they can to preserve their privileged status and power. They very well know they would lose any war with the US, thus that's really one of the last things they want. Launching a nuclear weapon would make sense for the regime only as an act of revenge if they got invaded by a foreign power and had absolutely nothing to lose anymore.

KLDC10 wrote:
Perhaps they do seek a nuclear weapon as a deterrent. I have read a number of articles suggesting that the regime seeks weapons as a means to bring America to the negotiating table and perhaps even receive truckloads of aid. That too is unacceptable, because it would provide the vile dictatorship with the upper hand in negotiations.


I don't think that would work very well. The US could just refuse all the aid and the North Korean government could only continue their empty threats, as launching a nuke would destroy them.
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KLDC10
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:57 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Yes, if the survival of the regime is at stake, he will be mad enough to launch them, so don't put the regime in that situation.


I'd rather just eliminate his ability to do so in the first place.

Dutchy wrote:
That boat has sailed in the mid 1990's. Now they do have the bomb, around five of them.


As the recent failed missile test showed, North Korea are not quite at the point of being able to use the armaments they have. So now we face a critical moment, because they are approaching that point.

Related to this; there are reports that the aircraft carriers USS Nimitz and USS Ronald Reagan are also now en-route to the Sea of Japan.

pvjin wrote:
The regime isn't mad, they are being perfectly rational by doing whatever they can to preserve their privileged status and power. They very well know they would lose any war with the US, thus that's really one of the last things they want. Launching a nuclear weapon would make sense for the regime only as an act of revenge if they got invaded by a foreign power and had absolutely nothing to lose anymore.


Rational is not a word which can be ascribed to any action the North Korean regime takes.
I would also argue that they have nothing akin to a privileged status - North Korea has been sustained for so long as a quasi-protectorate of China, which has led to the former relying very heavily on the latter. Most of China's patience with North Korea is predicated on a severe distaste for the idea of a united, US-backed Korea on its border. Strategically, North Korea has proven useful to China, but even their patience is now beginning to wear thin.

pvjin wrote:
I don't think that would work very well. The US could just refuse all the aid and the North Korean government could only continue their empty threats, as launching a nuke would destroy them.


The US could refuse aid, yes, but as I outlined previously, we're talking about such a volatile regime that it is hard to predict how they would react to being spurned. Kicking the can down the road by way of successive gestures of appeasement is a recipe for disaster.
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:18 pm

Dutchy wrote:
I think the regime isn't mad, they need something like a nucleair bomb so America doesn't attack.

Where do you get this? When has this ever actually been the case? Look at all the intractable regimes in the world, from Zimbabwe to Myanmar and others, and the USA has has attacked how many of them? And for how many years has NK been belligerent and did not have a nuclear weapon and the USA simply stood its ground. What kind of fantasy fear are you nurturing?

Honestly my guess is that NK has more to fear of China than the USA. China will not allow a USA friendly nation/government there (basically) and they know if NK fails then South Korea will automatically by the most influential nation unless they force something. I think Kim is all about keeping China at bay with his nukes and he is just threatening everybody else but China as cover. I am certain China would love to force him out and install another government/leader. But that isn't possible at this point.

Both competing sides are stuck at the moment and there is no really good option to NK and Kim that won't bring both into a regional power conflict (not necessarily war but if there is a power vacuum China will fill/prevent any "free democracy" like South Korea from being installed).

Tugg
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cledaybuck
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:35 pm

Tugger wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
I think the regime isn't mad, they need something like a nucleair bomb so America doesn't attack.

Where do you get this? When has this ever actually been the case?
Iraq, Libya.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:38 pm

I think the best course is probably to just ignore North Korea.
 
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:49 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
I think the regime isn't mad, they need something like a nucleair bomb so America doesn't attack.

Where do you get this? When has this ever actually been the case?
Iraq, Libya.

Libya was driven by European powers and not the USA. Iraq was a massively stupid thing that I can't excuse or justify but will say that there was an initiating event that kicked it off and that was Iraq invading another country that was an ally of the USA. And If NK were to invade the South the USA would of course follow its treaty obligation and defend them.

cledaybuck wrote:
I think the best course is probably to just ignore North Korea.

My concern is that ignoring NK would be like ignoring gangrene or cancer. Some things must be paid attention to. All NK wants right now is to be left alone so Kim and his cronies can live in luxury. I just worry what happens if that changes.

Tugg
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cledaybuck
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:13 pm

Tugger wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Where do you get this? When has this ever actually been the case?
Iraq, Libya.

Libya was driven by European powers and not the USA. Iraq was a massively stupid thing that I can't excuse or justify but will say that there was an initiating event that kicked it off and that was Iraq invading another country that was an ally of the USA. And If NK were to invade the South the USA would of course follow its treaty obligation and defend them.
What you say is true, but I think the chances of the US going into Iraq and Libya would have been much lower if those counties had nuclear weapons

Tugger wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
I think the best course is probably to just ignore North Korea.

My concern is that ignoring NK would be like ignoring gangrene or cancer. Some things must be paid attention to. All NK wants right now is to be left alone so Kim and his cronies can live in luxury. I just worry what happens if that changes.

Tugg
You even say yourself that Kim just wants to be left alone. Doesn't putting pressure on North Korea just make it more likely that the regime does something stupid?
 
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:34 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
You even say yourself that Kim just wants to be left alone. Doesn't putting pressure on North Korea just make it more likely that the regime does something stupid?

Yes, but do something stupid now with five(?) nukes and delivery systems that are questionable at best or wait for them to have more and better systems?

I don't know the answer, as I said above I do not agree with using military force directly and being preemptive but as a lever to get some movement? What the world has been doing has produced no results, so doing something different is not unreasonable (but the people involved might be).

Again, I really think Kim is scared of China and is developing his weapons to defend against that threat. Not the USA or its allies.

Tugg
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AirPacific747
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:05 pm

The thing is, the US would happily ignore NK and let the regime run the country forever if they cancelled their nuclear weapons Programme. Of course the US and its allies cannot tolerate being threatened by future ICBMs that could reach the US or their territories. So it's NKs own fault if they get attacked soon because they don't want to negotiate their nuclear weapons programme. Why should Japan and SK accept that missiles are flying into their territorial waters every so often? Why should the US? The leader of NK is mad. He cannot be trusted, therefore NK has to be stopped now. It's Obamas fault that we are now in this situation because he chose to ignore the "cancer" for 8 years. Now it's spread.
 
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Aesma
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:15 pm

Of course most countries on the planet must tolerate the US and a few others having nukes they can lob anywhere.
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salttee
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:23 pm

AirPacific747 wrote:
It's Obamas fault that we are now in this situation because he chose to ignore the "cancer" for 8 years. Now it's spread.

Not true.

The current problem was brought by George Bush who unnecessarily threatened N Korea and caused them to restart an idle nuke program. Obama inherited the circumstance Bush created. The time was never right for Obama to opt for military action, there was no real catalyst and politically he would have gone a step too far - he wouldn't have gotten support from the Dems or Republicans.

As long as we have a loose cannon like Trump as president we may as well make use of him. The biggest drawback I see would be that he might develop a Genghis Khan complex and start a losing war with Iran. But things most likely would work the other way.
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salttee
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:24 pm

Aesma wrote:
Of course most countries on the planet must tolerate the US and a few others having nukes they can lob anywhere.

Like France?
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Aesma
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:27 pm

salttee wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Of course most countries on the planet must tolerate the US and a few others having nukes they can lob anywhere.

Like France?


Yes. I'm fine with NK and Iran having nukes.
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cledaybuck
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:28 pm

AirPacific747 wrote:
The thing is, the US would happily ignore NK and let the regime run the country forever if they cancelled their nuclear weapons Programme. Of course the US and its allies cannot tolerate being threatened by future ICBMs that could reach the US or their territories. So it's NKs own fault if they get attacked soon because they don't want to negotiate their nuclear weapons programme. Why should Japan and SK accept that missiles are flying into their territorial waters every so often? Why should the US? The leader of NK is mad. He cannot be trusted, therefore NK has to be stopped now. It's Obamas fault that we are now in this situation because he chose to ignore the "cancer" for 8 years. Now it's spread.
Like when Gaddafi gave up his ambitions for nuclear weapons? And how exactly to you stop NK now short of full scale war? Tensions are rising not because of anything Obama did, but because Trump is rattling the sabre right back at NK.
 
salttee
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:37 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
how exactly to you stop NK now short of full scale war?

I believe that when China and Russia see that a major US strike is a certainty, they will solve the problem themselves.

I also believe it should be a US only action. Kim (and his staff) would then be left with the problem that the nuking of Seoul would just kill a lot of Koreans but do nothing against the US.
I think the US State department should at some point, order all Americans out of the city of Seoul.
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OA412
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:42 pm

Mir wrote:
You were strident in your support of the candidate most likely to take just such action. Elections have consequences.

This! OP has been unwavering in his support of the President, and has not been shy about expressing his support of the so-called "alternative right." You put a madman in power, he's going to do crazy things. Simple as that.
AirPacific747 wrote:
It really is time to get rid of this regime as it is causing major headaches around the world.

But enough about the Trump Administration, it's also time to get rid of Kim dynasty. :lol:
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cledaybuck
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:49 pm

salttee wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
how exactly to you stop NK now short of full scale war?

I believe that when China and Russia see that a major US strike is a certainty, they will solve the problem themselves.

I also believe it should be a US only action. Kim (and his staff) would then be left with the problem that the nuking of Seoul would just kill a lot of Koreans but do nothing against the US.
I think the US State department should at some point, order all Americans out of the city of Seoul.
Are you sure that NK won't see a major strike as a certainty, and preemptively strike somewhere? I mean it could work, but it brings the world to the brink of a nuclear strike. That is raising the stakes pretty high.
 
salttee
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:58 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
Are you sure that NK won't see a major strike as a certainty, and preemptively strike somewhere?

The only place N Korea has the ability to strike is South Korea and South Korea has already detached itself from this action of the United States.
Kim's choice is stark, is he going to kill millions of his countrymen to spite the US? And if he does so, won't he burn all his bridges with China?
If he launches, he is a dead man.

Then there is the very good possibility that the Patriot missile defense systems will work.
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cledaybuck
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:08 pm

salttee wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
Are you sure that NK won't see a major strike as a certainty, and preemptively strike somewhere?

The only place N Korea has the ability to strike is South Korea and South Korea has already detached itself from this action of the United States.
Kim's choice is stark, is he going to kill millions of his countrymen to spite the US? And if he does so, won't he burn all his bridges with China?
If he launches, he is a dead man.

Then there is the very good possibility that the Patriot missile defense systems will work.
North Korea has been killing it's citizens for years. Why will it get a conscience now? Also, I doubt North Korea leadership sees South Korea's as countrymen. They are the enemy. There are also thousands of US troops stationed there.
 
Flighty
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:20 pm

Honestly, I am not sure what I think about this.

On the one hand, North Korea is right, they need nuclear weapons for their regime's security. This is proved by Iraq, Egypt, Libya, Tunisia, Syria, Ukraine, need we go on?

On the other hand, the USA is right, we do not want them to have ICBM + nuke capability. They could threaten Los Angeles, and hence, would be an absolute peer of the USA in international diplomacy, for all time. This could go on for 300 more years. It could be very annoying. They may create new cancers, new human/drone hybrids, really dumb stuff to truly threaten humanity and antagonize the world.

The USA is very powerful, so, we do have the power to stop NK's nuclear program, by destroying facilities and killing all of the people involved. This might kill 10,000 people. We would start a war to prevent NK from peering with us. They might let SK have it in that scenario, after which, the Korean Conflict reopens - the US and China vie for control of North Korea.

Most South Koreans I know say they can't imagine the two Koreas ever uniting again, even in a century. Perhaps in light of the US's great strength protecting SK, and China's now great strength protecting NK.

If we want to forcibly denuke North Korea, we can, but a million people might die between NK and SK. I just don't see how our threat of doing that is SINCERE.

But, I do think the launch failed last weekend because of intentional sabotage by North Korean generals. They aren't stupid. They saw Trump was on a roll and they want him to just go away, and he will.

Trump is doing a good thing to attempt to scare NK, but I don't find it SINCERE really. I think NK will get their ICBM mounted nukes. They outperformed the US mentally and strategically in the 1990s, so there is a price to pay for that.
Last edited by Flighty on Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
 
salttee
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:22 pm

cledaybuck wrote:
I doubt North Korea leadership sees South Korea's as countrymen.

They do see them as countrymen. Very much so.

cledaybuck wrote:
There are also thousands of US troops stationed there.

And that's Kim's quandary. He only has five nukes and he has to keep two reserved for Seoul if that is a real threat. He needs to have nuclear mines at all the likely invasion routes for American and South Korean armored columns.

Trying to strike further south than Seoul has less likelihood of success the further south he goes - and that's where the Americans are.

Kim isn't in a very strong position.
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mham001
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:42 pm

Aesma wrote:
Yet Japan and South Korea don't want that military intervention.


I'm not so sure about Japan. A quote I read yesterday from Japan's leader basically said that diplomacy was useless and finished and (in context), passing on to militancy. Maybe there was something lost in translation...

Just for reference, Obama is said to have told Trum[p that NK was the most pressing issue in foregn policy. I beleieve even Obama knows that this will come down to military action, he just passed it along.


salttee wrote:
AirPacific747 wrote:
It's Obamas fault that we are now in this situation because he chose to ignore the "cancer" for 8 years. Now it's spread.

Not true.

The current problem was brought by George Bush who unnecessarily threatened N Korea and caused them to restart an idle nuke program. Obama inherited the circumstance Bush created. The time was never right for Obama to opt for military action, there was no real catalyst and politically he would have gone a step too far - he wouldn't have gotten support from the Dems or Republicans.


Oh, that's just partisan history revision crap. NK was enriching uranium even while fulfilling the Clinton deal. It was never 'idle".

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wor ... 968be67c6e
 
salttee
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:51 pm

mham001 wrote:
Oh, that's just partisan history revision crap. NK was enriching uranium even while fulfilling the Clinton deal. It was never 'idle".


From your link:
When George W. Bush succeeded Clinton as president in 2001, he sought to take a harder stance on North Korea. In 2002, the United States confronted North Korea with evidence that it had been pursuing a secret uranium-enrichment program. North Korea apparently confirmed this in a meeting with an envoy, prompting the United States to withdraw its supply of fuel oil. The Agreed Framework broke down, and North Korea restarted its nuclear weapons program.

Subsequent attempts at further talks with North Korea have failed – the Bush administration even attempted a deal that saw sanctions lifted and North Korea removed the from the U.S. list of state sponsors of terrorism, but it collapsed before Bush left office. North Korea conducted its first nuclear test in 2006.

And when Obama took office in 2009, that's the situation he inherited.
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mham001
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:00 pm

salttee wrote:
mham001 wrote:
Oh, that's just partisan history revision crap. NK was enriching uranium even while fulfilling the Clinton deal. It was never 'idle".


From your link:
When George W. Bush succeeded Clinton as president in 2001, he sought to take a harder stance on North Korea. In 2002, the United States confronted North Korea with evidence that it had been pursuing a secret uranium-enrichment program. North Korea apparently confirmed this in a meeting with an envoy, prompting the United States to withdraw its supply of fuel oil. The Agreed Framework broke down, and North Korea restarted its nuclear weapons program.

Subsequent attempts at further talks with North Korea have failed – the Bush administration even attempted a deal that saw sanctions lifted and North Korea removed the from the U.S. list of state sponsors of terrorism, but it collapsed before Bush left office. North Korea conducted its first nuclear test in 2006.

And when Obama took office in 2009, that's the situation he inherited.


Blaming Bush for the "current problem" without even mentioning Clinton is nothing but a lie.

North Korea never actually stopped its nuclear weapons program, secretly progressing to uranium-enrichment. They completely hoodwinked Clinton. THAT is what Bush inherited.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:45 pm

salttee wrote:
cledaybuck wrote:
I doubt North Korea leadership sees South Korea's as countrymen.

They do see them as countrymen. Very much so.

cledaybuck wrote:
There are also thousands of US troops stationed there.

And that's Kim's quandary. He only has five nukes and he has to keep two reserved for Seoul if that is a real threat. He needs to have nuclear mines at all the likely invasion routes for American and South Korean armored columns.

Trying to strike further south than Seoul has less likelihood of success the further south he goes - and that's where the Americans are.

Kim isn't in a very strong position.
He doesn't need to position his nukes to win a war (because he can't win against the US). He just needs them to keep the price in lives of a US invasion high.
 
cledaybuck
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:48 pm

mham001 wrote:
salttee wrote:
mham001 wrote:
Oh, that's just partisan history revision crap. NK was enriching uranium even while fulfilling the Clinton deal. It was never 'idle".


From your link:
When George W. Bush succeeded Clinton as president in 2001, he sought to take a harder stance on North Korea. In 2002, the United States confronted North Korea with evidence that it had been pursuing a secret uranium-enrichment program. North Korea apparently confirmed this in a meeting with an envoy, prompting the United States to withdraw its supply of fuel oil. The Agreed Framework broke down, and North Korea restarted its nuclear weapons program.

Subsequent attempts at further talks with North Korea have failed – the Bush administration even attempted a deal that saw sanctions lifted and North Korea removed the from the U.S. list of state sponsors of terrorism, but it collapsed before Bush left office. North Korea conducted its first nuclear test in 2006.

And when Obama took office in 2009, that's the situation he inherited.


Blaming Bush for the "current problem" without even mentioning Clinton is nothing but a lie.

North Korea never actually stopped its nuclear weapons program, secretly progressing to uranium-enrichment. They completely hoodwinked Clinton. THAT is what Bush inherited.
Blaming Bush, Clinton, Obama, Truman, etc. is pointless. U.S. policy towards North Korea hasn't changed much since the end of the Korean War. Unfortunately, it is up to the current president to deal with it now.
 
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par13del
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:00 pm

So when was the last time that the allies had any consensus on North Korea and what exactly did they accomplish?
Like India, Pakistan and others who attempted, if you start a nuclear program the west will pay you to not develop the capability while you develop it and when you are complete it they will not welcome you into the club but will tolerate you, in the meantime, the millions that they gave you will allow you to feed your people while you divert your funds to the nuclear program.
 
Okie
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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:20 pm

salttee wrote:
And when Obama took office in 2009, that's the situation he inherited.


Come on quit the revision of history crap.

*****
93 is when NK built a Graphite-Modified Fast Breeder Reactor. (Clinton)
94 is when NK quit letting IAEA have access for inspections and dropped out of the Nuclear Accord since they could not account for missing nuclear grade Plutonium. (Clinton)

*****
Here is a clue. The main purpose of a Graphite-Modified Fast Breeder Reactor is not to produce electricity but to produce weapons grade Plutonium.


Okie




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Re: The U.S. must not act in North Korea on unilateral basis.

Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:21 pm

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