Kiwirob
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:54 pm

ABB was found to be mentally competent, plenty of murders are. He's the prime example of a person who is 100% guilty that nobody should have any issue with a state sanctioned execution.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:14 pm

Dutchy wrote:
If you feel that no person has the right to take other persons life, then why should the government be able to? And obviously, I am not talking about self-defense or the defence of others. That is on a more philosophical level.


Executing a killer is, in fact, defense of society. So much for philosophy.

Dutchy wrote:
As regards to the cost of a death penalty case, it has been shown that a death sentence is far more expensive than live in prison, in the US that is.


It need not be. A simple Federal review commission would be no more expensive than any single appeals court. A relatively quick up or down based on evidence and procedures to validate or reject a sentence. Bullets are cheap.

Sob sisters can file amicus curiae briefs.

Cheers.
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M564038
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:19 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
ABB was found to be mentally competent, plenty of murders are. He's the prime example of a person who is 100% guilty that nobody should have any issue with a state sanctioned execution.

Luckily, we chose a better solution.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:19 pm

Dutchy wrote:
I'll leave you with one thought, no system is perfect, so if you are for the death penalty, you have to accept that a certain percentage of the cases, an innocent man is convicted and put to death. In America, it has been shown to be around 5%. In the Netherlands, we have had a couple of cases in which a conviction is overturned after a number of years, so it's not just America with its flawed legal system where this kind of things happens.
[emphasis added by BP]

Please stop your constant anti-American rhetoric. By you own admission ALL legal systems are flawed.

Your hate of America simply paints you as an ugly person. Your native land is surely no better, just different.
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:23 pm

Dutchy wrote:
The iron-clad argument is a bit weak, nothing is iron-clad. So if you are advocating for the death penalty, then you have to accept that someone innocent is killed, no matter how high the bar is.


Being caught in the act is pretty iron clad. Will you accept that?
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Kiwirob
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:43 pm

M564038 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
ABB was found to be mentally competent, plenty of murders are. He's the prime example of a person who is 100% guilty that nobody should have any issue with a state sanctioned execution.

Luckily, we chose a better solution.


But Norway didn't, the Norwegian govt failed the Norwegian people, especially the parents of the children who died. One of my kiwi mates is friends with the mother of the NZ girl who was murder at Utøya and he also knows the kiwi husband of a Norwegian who died in the bombing.

IMO the police failed first, they should have shot him, then there is the possibility he will be out one one day, which is a terrible thought. If it was up to me I'd put him in the general prison population then allow a prisoner to kill him whilst quietly offering the guy a reduced sentence to carry it out.
 
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:46 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
The iron-clad argument is a bit weak, nothing is iron-clad. So if you are advocating for the death penalty, then you have to accept that someone innocent is killed, no matter how high the bar is.


Being caught in the act is pretty iron clad. Will you accept that?


As Bob has said Breivik was caught in the act, it's on video, how much more iron clad can you get than this?
 
Scorpio
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:03 pm

Am I the only one who finds it a bit strange and contradictory that the people (especially in the US) who trust the government the least, and want to have them do as little as possible because they'll just screw it up anyway, and for whom 'because we may have to fight the government' is one of the main reasons they feel they should be allowed to have any weapon they choose are the same people who are adament that that same government they don't trust should have the right to decide over life and death?
 
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Dreadnought
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:14 pm

Scorpio wrote:
Am I the only one who finds it a bit strange and contradictory that the people (especially in the US) who trust the government the least, and want to have them do as little as possible because they'll just screw it up anyway, and for whom 'because we may have to fight the government' is one of the main reasons they feel they should be allowed to have any weapon they choose are the same people who are adament that that same government they don't trust should have the right to decide over life and death?


That's a fair point. The only counter-argument I can come up with is that a death penalty generally cannot be given unless a jury of one's peers recommends it to the court.
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scbriml
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:34 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
Executing a killer is, in fact, defense of society.


Jesus Christ, man. It's nothing more than revenge.
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Scorpio
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:40 pm

Dreadnought wrote:
That's a fair point. The only counter-argument I can come up with is that a death penalty generally cannot be given unless a jury of one's peers recommends it to the court.

Yeah, I'm not sure exactly how 'Oh, but we let a bunch of randomly selected people with no legal background, with their own preferences and prejudices, who can easily be swayed one way or the other by a slick expensive lawyer weigh in it too' makes it look all that much better...
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:49 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
The iron-clad argument is a bit weak, nothing is iron-clad. So if you are advocating for the death penalty, then you have to accept that someone innocent is killed, no matter how high the bar is.


Being caught in the act is pretty iron clad. Will you accept that?


As Bob has said Breivik was caught in the act, it's on video, how much more iron clad can you get than this?


How many of those cases are there? And like I said, then there is the mental competence, that is a judgement call, so faults can be made there.
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Dutchy
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:51 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
nobody should have any issue with a state sanctioned execution.


That is your moral reference. I think that nobody should be killed, not even ABB.
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Dutchy
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:54 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
If you feel that no person has the right to take other persons life, then why should the government be able to? And obviously, I am not talking about self-defense or the defence of others. That is on a more philosophical level.


Executing a killer is, in fact, defense of society. So much for philosophy.


Whom is in imminent danger if a killer is locked up?

BobPatterson wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
As regards to the cost of a death penalty case, it has been shown that a death sentence is far more expensive than live in prison, in the US that is.


It need not be. A simple Federal review commission would be no more expensive than any single appeals court. A relatively quick up or down based on evidence and procedures to validate or reject a sentence. Bullets are cheap.

Sob sisters can file amicus curiae briefs.

Cheers.


Ok, then you advocate a more simple procedure which potentially creates more cases of innocent men executed, is that what you prepared to accept? Bob?
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Dutchy
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:03 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
I'll leave you with one thought, no system is perfect, so if you are for the death penalty, you have to accept that a certain percentage of the cases, an innocent man is convicted and put to death. In America, it has been shown to be around 5%. In the Netherlands, we have had a couple of cases in which a conviction is overturned after a number of years, so it's not just America with its flawed legal system where this kind of things happens.
[emphasis added by BP]

Please stop your constant anti-American rhetoric. By you own admission ALL legal systems are flawed.

Your hate of America simply paints you as an ugly person. Your native land is surely no better, just different.


Oh please, do you believe that America is a perfect society which you can't criticise? And you have any criticism of America equals hatred towards America? In that respect I must be a very hateful person, I am critical towards lots of things. ;)

Back to executions in the American state of Arkansas. I feel, and I am not alone in that, http://data.worldjusticeproject.org/ Netherlands #5 America #18, so objectively my country has a better system then the US. Yes, all legal systems are by definition flawed, but some are more flawed than others.
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Dutchy
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:26 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
ABB was found to be mentally competent, plenty of murders are. He's the prime example of a person who is 100% guilty that nobody should have any issue with a state sanctioned execution.

Luckily, we chose a better solution.


But Norway didn't, the Norwegian govt failed the Norwegian people, especially the parents of the children who died. One of my kiwi mates is friends with the mother of the NZ girl who was murder at Utøya and he also knows the kiwi husband of a Norwegian who died in the bombing.

IMO the police failed first, they should have shot him, then there is the possibility he will be out one one day, which is a terrible thought. If it was up to me I'd put him in the general prison population then allow a prisoner to kill him whilst quietly offering the guy a reduced sentence to carry it out.


Are you really feel like that? It is uber harsh with no justice at all.

The children whom died aren't brought back from the dead if Breivink is put to death. So only some kind retaliation is the driver for you. In general, there four pillars from which a justice system is based: retaliation, security of society and behavioural influence of the offenders and of all citizens (prevention). The death penalty only works on the first one, retaliation.

And the second part is just plain scary. So the police should have shot him, without due process? Based on what legal system do you base that if a person isn't posing any danger anymore. That is just plain murder you are advocating here, murder by the police. And then let another inmate kill him, that is murder as well, and you go a big step beyond that, you even reward murder by a reduced sentence. I come to the limits of my English, we have something called zelfrechting in Dutch, which means something like that ordinary people are prosecutor judge and executioner in one. What you are basically describing is no rule of law at all. The justice system is there to protect its citizens, but also protect the alleged perpetrator. In more advanced societies the retaliation part is handed over to the state and I feel that is a very good way of dealing with it.
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Dutchy
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Thu Apr 20, 2017 7:27 pm

Dreadnought wrote:
Scorpio wrote:
Am I the only one who finds it a bit strange and contradictory that the people (especially in the US) who trust the government the least, and want to have them do as little as possible because they'll just screw it up anyway, and for whom 'because we may have to fight the government' is one of the main reasons they feel they should be allowed to have any weapon they choose are the same people who are adament that that same government they don't trust should have the right to decide over life and death?


That's a fair point. The only counter-argument I can come up with is that a death penalty generally cannot be given unless a jury of one's peers recommends it to the court.


Why a jury of one's peers? Why not a professional system?
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BobPatterson
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:43 pm

scbriml wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
Executing a killer is, in fact, defense of society.


Jesus Christ, man. It's nothing more than revenge.


OK, so it's revenge. It is also justice.

And no, you can't provoke me by profaning a prophet. Shame on you.
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BobPatterson
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:58 pm

Dutchy wrote:
It need not be. A simple Federal review commission would be no more expensive than any single appeals court. A relatively quick up or down based on evidence and procedures to validate or reject a sentence. Bullets are cheap.

Sob sisters can file amicus curiae briefs.


Ok, then you advocate a more simple procedure which potentially creates more cases of innocent men executed, is that what you prepared to accept? Bob?[/quote]

Your logic is faulty.

While the structure of a review commission could be simple, its purpose would be to apply stringent review of trial transcripts under full appellate procedures where defense lawyers and filers of amicus curiae can make their best cases for overturning judgments.

A review commission cannot possibly create MORE cases of execution. They might end up permitting many FEWER executions from being carried out.

By the way, such a commission could only review and rule on capital cases arising from States (and Federal Courts) that permit a death penalty.

You can still take your sob stories to State Legislatures and try to convince them to rule out death penalties. Ditto for the U.S. Congress with respect to Federal Court cases.

There have been 26 Federal/military executions since 1950 according to Wikipedia.
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scbriml
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:15 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
OK, so it's revenge.


Praise the lord, we agree!

Wouldn't revenge be unchristian?
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BobPatterson
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:20 pm

Dutchy wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
I'll leave you with one thought, no system is perfect, so if you are for the death penalty, you have to accept that a certain percentage of the cases, an innocent man is convicted and put to death. In America, it has been shown to be around 5%. In the Netherlands, we have had a couple of cases in which a conviction is overturned after a number of years, so it's not just America with its flawed legal system where this kind of things happens.
[emphasis added by BP]

Please stop your constant anti-American rhetoric. By you own admission ALL legal systems are flawed.

Your hate of America simply paints you as an ugly person. Your native land is surely no better, just different.


Oh please, do you believe that America is a perfect society which you can't criticise?


Of course not. All societies are flawed. However, I know of no other society in the world where a citizen such as myself is so totally free to criticize his government.

Dutchy wrote:
And you have any criticism of America equals hatred towards America? In that respect I must be a very hateful person, I am critical towards lots of things. ;)


I base my opinion that you speak hatefully about America based on reading hundreds of your postings at a.net.
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:27 pm

scbriml wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
OK, so it's revenge.


Praise the lord, we agree!

Wouldn't revenge be unchristian?


I'll leave that for Christians to decide. I seem to recall that Jesus took revenge on a fig tree.

From what I've seen personally and based upon what I've read of history, so-called Christians (broadly speaking) have not been immune from being revengeful.

Maybe somewhere, at sometime, some other religious group has had a better record. If so, probably not much better.
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Mir
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:05 am

Scorpio wrote:
Am I the only one who finds it a bit strange and contradictory that the people (especially in the US) who trust the government the least, and want to have them do as little as possible because they'll just screw it up anyway, and for whom 'because we may have to fight the government' is one of the main reasons they feel they should be allowed to have any weapon they choose are the same people who are adament that that same government they don't trust should have the right to decide over life and death?


No, you're not. And it's not strange, it's absolutely mindbogglingly stupid.

BTW, here's an example of the sort of justice system that apparently people have no problem giving the authority to put someone to death:

In Lee’s case, the records show shocking failures of his defense attorneys, both at trial and post-conviction, which were compounded by egregious conflicts of interest. His trial judge was having an affair with the prosecutor; the two would later get married. The same judge later expressed his regret at appointing a lawyer to Lee’s state habeas proceeding who showed up to court obviously intoxicated. A state prosecutor raised concerns that the attorney was slurring his words, stumbling in the courtroom, and speaking incoherently, while “introducing the same items of evidence over and over again.” Later, the judge told the lawyer that he was unaware he had only recently been in rehab. “If I had known that, I would not have put you on this case,” he said.

https://theintercept.com/2017/04/20/ark ... rate-them/

We see these sorts of botched trials and poor public defenders leading to executions all the time (though a judge sleeping with a prosecutor is a new one for me). How much longer does it have to go on before we accept that the government has not proven itself fit to have the power to execute people?
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Scorpio
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:19 am

BobPatterson wrote:
Of course not. All societies are flawed. However, I know of no other society in the world where a citizen such as myself is so totally free to criticize his government.


You don't get out much, do you?
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Fri Apr 21, 2017 7:50 am

Scorpio wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
Of course not. All societies are flawed. However, I know of no other society in the world where a citizen such as myself is so totally free to criticize his government.


You don't get out much, do you?


lol, indeed.
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Dutchy
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:05 am

BobPatterson wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
And you have any criticism of America equals hatred towards America? In that respect I must be a very hateful person, I am critical towards lots of things. ;)


I base my opinion that you speak hatefully about America based on reading hundreds of your postings at a.net.


Now, do you? First of all, almost all treads point to something wrong in society, so adding to that, are mostly critical post to the regime. Secondly, I am critical towards the Trump administration, since I consider myself liberal left in The Netherlands that can hardly be surprising. Thirdly, there are a lot of treads about America, so that is misleading as well. Don't fall into the trap of criticising acts of people/administration with hatred towards a country, if you do that, you open the door for a totalitarian state, the big picture: Erdogan does that - all terrorist vote no in the referendum, or Putin whom get all his opponents killed and sais they are against Russia, while they are critical of Putin. And in your small world, you are doing exactly the same. Saying that I am anti-American and then you don't have to listen anymore to someone with that label.
I am going to say this once and only once, I don't care if you believe me or not, I am not anti-American, some aspects I admire a lot - entrepreneurship for instance and the way Americans deal with risk taking, some aspects I don't care much about, the way you treat your weak and people whom are down to their luck. So there are a lot of nuances to it as you can see. So as you can see, you are making snap judgements here and it is up to you to decide whether you are going to continue down that path or open yourself up and really listen to what people are saying here and not just judge them from your own little world view.
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seahawk
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:15 am

scbriml wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
Executing a killer is, in fact, defense of society.


Jesus Christ, man. It's nothing more than revenge.


The wish for revenge is a human emotion that every victim of a crime feels. A justice system that does not cater for this emotion will be seen as unjust by most people and with this the state and the justice system will loose support in society and in the end this opens the door for radicals, who support a system that caters more for basic human emotions. So in some ways "revenge" is needed to make a society function.

This point is often overlooked when people talk about rehabilitation of the criminal as the major goal of the justice system. The big problem is that most countries are unable to draw a real line between minor crimes, where rehabilitation should be the focus and really serious crime where the protection of society and the need for "revenge" must be considered. Stupidly many countries treat a murder not much different to a guy who was caught breaking and entering, while they are in prison.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:20 am

BobPatterson wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
It need not be. A simple Federal review commission would be no more expensive than any single appeals court. A relatively quick up or down based on evidence and procedures to validate or reject a sentence. Bullets are cheap.

Sob sisters can file amicus curiae briefs.

Dutchy wrote:
Ok, then you advocate a more simple procedure which potentially creates more cases of innocent men executed, is that what you prepared to accept? Bob?


Your logic is faulty.

While the structure of a review commission could be simple, its purpose would be to apply stringent review of trial transcripts under full appellate procedures where defence lawyers and filers of amicus curiae can make their best cases for overturning judgments.

A review commission cannot possibly create MORE cases of execution. They might end up permitting many FEWER executions from being carried out.

By the way, such a commission could only review and rule on capital cases arising from States (and Federal Courts) that permit a death penalty.

You can still take your sob stories to State Legislatures and try to convince them to rule out death penalties. Ditto for the U.S. Congress with respect to Federal Court cases.

There have been 26 Federal/military executions since 1950 according to Wikipedia.


So what are you exactly proposing? An extra layer, so add this review commission to all the appeals courts? Or instead of? If it is the first case then you only add a procedure so it will take longer and thus will cost more, if it is the second then you argue that such a commission will do a better job then all the appeals in the current system. The logical conclusion from that is, that you find the current system flawed in such a way that a lot of people fall through the cracks. Which is it?
If it is the second, why not update the system and eliminate the jury system and let it handled by professionals?

I don't subscribe to the view of sob stories, if they have a legitimate claim you need to listen to it and act accordingly, labelling it as "sob stories" is saying that you don't take it seriously and aren't prepared to listen to it. Is that the case, Bob?
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Dutchy
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:31 am

seahawk wrote:
scbriml wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
Executing a killer is, in fact, defense of society.


Jesus Christ, man. It's nothing more than revenge.


The wish for revenge is a human emotion that every victim of a crime feels. A justice system that does not cater for this emotion will be seen as unjust by most people and with this the state and the justice system will loose support in society and in the end this opens the door for radicals, who support a system that caters more for basic human emotions. So in some ways "revenge" is needed to make a society function.

This point is often overlooked when people talk about rehabilitation of the criminal as the major goal of the justice system. The big problem is that most countries are unable to draw a real line between minor crimes, where rehabilitation should be the focus and really serious crime where the protection of society and the need for "revenge" must be considered. Stupidly many countries treat a murder not much different to a guy who was caught breaking and entering, while they are in prison.


Revenge is a goal of the justice system, one of the four as I have described earlier. As it is called, the rule of law has been violated and now you will be prosecuted. The revenge part has been taken over by the state for due process. Putting someone away is revenge of the injustice done to society at large or the individual. The tricky part is, that a criminal procedure isn't about the victim, but is about the alleged criminal.
Most murders are committed, at least in western Europe, by someone whom the victim knew. In that respect, the chances of that happening again are much lower than with breaking and entering. So I am not quite sure what you are getting at? Should a murderer receive, besides a longer sentence, a harsher regime? And what would the purpose be? What would the ultimate goal be of such treatment? Just revenge?
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seahawk
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Fri Apr 21, 2017 8:51 am

The criminal system should be about the victims though, because the victims also require justice.

And the prison system makes very little differentiation between first time offenders or serial offenders. So in the end first time offenders often end up with more criminal knowledge and better criminal connections after their prison term.
You can even apply this to persons convicted of homicide. A person convicted of murder and a person convicted of manslaughter have different chances of rehabilitation and society should have different interests in their rehabilitation as well.
 
M564038
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:04 am

Kiwirob wrote:
M564038 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
ABB was found to be mentally competent, plenty of murders are. He's the prime example of a person who is 100% guilty that nobody should have any issue with a state sanctioned execution.

Luckily, we chose a better solution.


But Norway didn't, the Norwegian govt failed the Norwegian people, especially the parents of the children who died. One of my kiwi mates is friends with the mother of the NZ girl who was murder at Utøya and he also knows the kiwi husband of a Norwegian who died in the bombing.

IMO the police failed first, they should have shot him, then there is the possibility he will be out one one day, which is a terrible thought. If it was up to me I'd put him in the general prison population then allow a prisoner to kill him whilst quietly offering the guy a reduced sentence to carry it out.


I knew several victims, I also know several survivors, and many family members of victims people who were shot at. Not one single of them had ever expressed the wish for the death penalty in this case. They don't want a society were the ultimate penalty is death. That is a raw, evil, omnious dark society. A society that doesn't have that raw power to decide to kill its own citizens needs to think differently to not create these monsters in the first place. That is the big distinction. That is the true morality of this.
My Grandfather was involved in some of the post war executions of Nazi war criminals, working in the penal system. He thought that was all a big mistake, and in later decades worked hard towards the softening of the system towards rehabilitation with a passion.

Not everyone can be "cured", some need to be held under scrutiny, or even locked up for much of their lives, but we do not kill.
We as a society, every single one of us has a responsibility to not create marginalized, angry, crazy monsters that steal, swindle, rape or kill. Because they are amongst us, we produce them, it's the ones which ends up as "them" in every single social "us/them grouping" in life which end up as killers. They are the kind of people that only isis, neo-nazis or religious cults welcomes.
People like ABB, that was bullied, laughed at, marginalized,, according to a female friend that went to school with him, all trough his life, and had to construct his own parallell hero/villain fantasy world to feel any kind of self worth. We as a society produce these kind of people. But, yes, It does take even another level of crazy to be able to pull the trigger again and again, that is absolutely true.


An interresting note: ABB thought he was going to be executed on the spot, he even writes in his so called "manifest", that he didn't expect to live to see a trial.
He thought he was going to be put to death for what he was doing, taken down mid-shooting by a swat team, or by some revenge seeking police officer, official or relative, he thought that somehow, the police and judical system would stooop down to his level and kill him at some point in the process.
And that didn't stop him for one tiny second.

The death penalty does not work, there aren't fewer killers in societys that has it. It is the other way around. Murder rate follows more or less directly from the socio-economic level of a country, and how it takes care of its citizens. As such society bears responsibility for creating killers, and does not hold the right to punish by killing. It needs to stop.
Yes, you can kill to STOP someone from killing, you can not kill as revenge.
 
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scbriml
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:10 am

BobPatterson wrote:
I seem to recall that Jesus took revenge on a fig tree.


We can all play "quote the bible" and find something to support our position. Jesus allegedly preached forgiveness and told people to turn the other cheek.
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
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M564038
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Fri Apr 21, 2017 9:18 am

BobPatterson wrote:
scbriml wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
Executing a killer is, in fact, defense of society.


Jesus Christ, man. It's nothing more than revenge.


OK, so it's revenge. It is also justice.

And no, you can't provoke me by profaning a prophet. Shame on you.


You are ok with killing people for revenge outside the law, but you think people should use your fairytale hero's "name" in ways that doesn't suit you should be ashamed of themselves.

That is unbeliveably crazy to me.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:35 pm

Scorpio wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
Of course not. All societies are flawed. However, I know of no other society in the world where a citizen such as myself is so totally free to criticize his government.


You don't get out much, do you?


Is that some kind of thoughtful comment? Do you have anything at all to add to a discussion?
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:37 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Scorpio wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
Of course not. All societies are flawed. However, I know of no other society in the world where a citizen such as myself is so totally free to criticize his government.


You don't get out much, do you?


lol, indeed.


Is that some kind of thoughtful comment? Do you have anything at all to add to a discussion?

Or just another cheap shot?
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:41 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Scorpio wrote:

You don't get out much, do you?


lol, indeed.


Is that some kind of thoughtful comment? Do you have anything at all to add to a discussion?

Or just another cheap shot?


I have contributed enough, I would say, don't you?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Fri Apr 21, 2017 4:50 pm

Dutchy wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
And you have any criticism of America equals hatred towards America? In that respect I must be a very hateful person, I am critical towards lots of things. ;)


I base my opinion that you speak hatefully about America based on reading hundreds of your postings at a.net.


Now, do you? First of all, almost all treads point to something wrong in society, so adding to that, are mostly critical post to the regime. Secondly, I am critical towards the Trump administration, since I consider myself liberal left in The Netherlands that can hardly be surprising. Thirdly, there are a lot of treads about America, so that is misleading as well. Don't fall into the trap of criticising acts of people/administration with hatred towards a country, if you do that, you open the door for a totalitarian state, the big picture: Erdogan does that - all terrorist vote no in the referendum, or Putin whom get all his opponents killed and sais they are against Russia, while they are critical of Putin. And in your small world, you are doing exactly the same. Saying that I am anti-American and then you don't have to listen anymore to someone with that label.
I am going to say this once and only once, I don't care if you believe me or not, I am not anti-American, some aspects I admire a lot - entrepreneurship for instance and the way Americans deal with risk taking, some aspects I don't care much about, the way you treat your weak and people whom are down to their luck. So there are a lot of nuances to it as you can see. So as you can see, you are making snap judgements here and it is up to you to decide whether you are going to continue down that path or open yourself up and really listen to what people are saying here and not just judge them from your own little world view.


There was nothing "snap" about my judgment, and your denigrating labeling of "your own little world view" says much about you.

I have read hundreds of your posts, and am still reading them.

When you offer facts instead of (you label yourself as having leftist biases) you stand a chance of convincing me about an issue.

I am probably more critical of Mr. Trump than you, but so what.

In this thread we are supposed to be talking about the death penalty in America. I'm sorry that I had to bring up your record of bias against America.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:04 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:

I base my opinion that you speak hatefully about America based on reading hundreds of your postings at a.net.


Now, do you? First of all, almost all treads point to something wrong in society, so adding to that, are mostly critical post to the regime. Secondly, I am critical towards the Trump administration, since I consider myself liberal left in The Netherlands that can hardly be surprising. Thirdly, there are a lot of treads about America, so that is misleading as well. Don't fall into the trap of criticising acts of people/administration with hatred towards a country, if you do that, you open the door for a totalitarian state, the big picture: Erdogan does that - all terrorist vote no in the referendum, or Putin whom get all his opponents killed and sais they are against Russia, while they are critical of Putin. And in your small world, you are doing exactly the same. Saying that I am anti-American and then you don't have to listen anymore to someone with that label.
I am going to say this once and only once, I don't care if you believe me or not, I am not anti-American, some aspects I admire a lot - entrepreneurship for instance and the way Americans deal with risk taking, some aspects I don't care much about, the way you treat your weak and people whom are down to their luck. So there are a lot of nuances to it as you can see. So as you can see, you are making snap judgements here and it is up to you to decide whether you are going to continue down that path or open yourself up and really listen to what people are saying here and not just judge them from your own little world view.


There was nothing "snap" about my judgment, and your denigrating labeling of "your own little world view" says much about you.

I have read hundreds of your posts, and am still reading them.

When you offer facts instead of (you label yourself as having leftist biases) you stand a chance of convincing me about an issue.

I am probably more critical of Mr. Trump than you, but so what.

In this thread we are supposed to be talking about the death penalty in America. I'm sorry that I had to bring up your record of bias against America.


Where, in your opinion, am I hateful against America?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Scorpio
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:05 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
Scorpio wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
Of course not. All societies are flawed. However, I know of no other society in the world where a citizen such as myself is so totally free to criticize his government.


You don't get out much, do you?


Is that some kind of thoughtful comment? Do you have anything at all to add to a discussion?

It's about as 'thoughtful' as the silly post it's a reaction to, a post that illustrates you more than likely indeed do not get out much. It's the only reason I can think of for you to make such a statement.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:17 pm

Dutchy wrote:
So what are you exactly proposing? An extra layer, so add this review commission to all the appeals courts? Or instead of? If it is the first case then you only add a procedure so it will take longer and thus will cost more, if it is the second then you argue that such a commission will do a better job then all the appeals in the current system. The logical conclusion from that is, that you find the current system flawed in such a way that a lot of people fall through the cracks. Which is it? If it is the second, why not update the system and eliminate the jury system and let it handled by professionals?


Not an extra layer. A distinctly separate Court of Appeals with immediate, automatic and final authority over every case involving the death penalty arising from any jurisdiction within the United States. The only job of this court would be to uniformly review cases while evidence and memories are as fresh as possible, and to rule against the death penalty whenever the evidence is less than air tight.

From this court a defendant can go free (found innocent on appeal), to prison for whatever period a new sentencing hearing determines (death sentence denied), or to his/her death (right now). I suppose there might be some cases that are remanded for retrial.

The right to trial by jury is enshrined in our Constitution and will never be eliminated.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:25 pm

scbriml wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
I seem to recall that Jesus took revenge on a fig tree.


We can all play "quote the bible" and find something to support our position. Jesus allegedly preached forgiveness and told people to turn the other cheek.


I wasn't "playing quote the bible". I was responding to your question: "Wouldn't revenge be unchristian?"

In doing so I went as close to the source as possible.

Your pointing to his alleged words was highly appropriate also.

Cheers.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:30 pm

M564038 wrote:

You are ok with killing people for revenge outside the law, but you think people should use your fairytale hero's "name" in ways that doesn't suit you should be ashamed of themselves.

That is unbeliveably crazy to me.


I have said nothing about taking actions outside the laws.

I have no fairy take heroes.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Fri Apr 21, 2017 5:56 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
M564038 wrote:

You are ok with killing people for revenge outside the law, but you think people should use your fairytale hero's "name" in ways that doesn't suit you should be ashamed of themselves.

That is unbeliveably crazy to me.


I have said nothing about taking actions outside the laws.

I have no fairy take heroes.


You are correct, that was Kiwirob.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
WIederling
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:17 am

sccutler wrote:
Plus (and what a bonus this is!), every now and again, we'd avoid executing someone who didn't freakin' do it.


Like two out of three?

The death penalty is needed to make those conjured up criminal cases stick and turn them unrevocable.
Murphy is an optimist

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