blueflyer
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Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:42 pm

Arkansas is attempting to execute 8 inmates in 11 days because their supply of one of the drugs involved in the execution is expiring at the end of the month. And not for any other reason. Well except for the fact state officials know drug manufacturers are less and less inclined to be involved in death sentences and replacing the drug might prove to be difficult.

Courts have imposed a stay for two of the prisoners since governor Asa Hutchinson announced the decision. The state Supreme Court granted a stay to one while his mental capabilities are being evaluated; a federal judge granted a stay to another because a state agency had recommended clemency only days before.

Separately, a district court judge issued a preliminary injunction against the entire schedule. She agreed with lawyers for the inmates that there is not enough evidence the drug, an anesthetic, can reliably block pain caused by the other drugs in the cocktail, as required by the constitutional ban on cruel and unusual punishment. In her order, she also mentioned the state probably lacks the experience to conduct so many executions legally in such a short time span given Arkansas has not carried out a death sentence since 2005.

Finally, the drug manufacturer was also granted a restraining order against its drug being used, arguing that the state did not inform it adequately of the intended use of the drug at the time of purchase.

Arkansas is appealing every stay and restraining order, arguing that it may never be able to carry out the sentences if it cannot do so by the end of the month.

The drug manufacturer has since withdrawn its complaint so the restraining order is highly likely to be lifted.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/arkansas-a ... 1492373471
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Dreadnought
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:32 am

blueflyer wrote:
Arkansas is attempting to execute 8 inmates in 11 days because their supply of one of the drugs involved in the execution is expiring at the end of the month. And not for any other reason. Well except for the fact state officials know drug manufacturers are less and less inclined to be involved in death sentences and replacing the drug might prove to be difficult.


Use battery acid. Problem solved. Next.
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NoTime
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:00 am

Dreadnought wrote:
blueflyer wrote:
Arkansas is attempting to execute 8 inmates in 11 days because their supply of one of the drugs involved in the execution is expiring at the end of the month. And not for any other reason. Well except for the fact state officials know drug manufacturers are less and less inclined to be involved in death sentences and replacing the drug might prove to be difficult.


Use battery acid. Problem solved. Next.


Or bullets.
 
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:30 am

On occasion, I idly wonder whether it is time to recognize that the death penalty's time as a means of punishment has passed. It's not as if life in prison without possibility of parole is an adventure in fun, and the errant convict is still sequestered from society.

Plus (and what a bonus this is!), every now and again, we'd avoid executing someone who didn't freakin' do it.

Just sayin'.
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Dreadnought
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Mon Apr 17, 2017 12:59 pm

sccutler wrote:
On occasion, I idly wonder whether it is time to recognize that the death penalty's time as a means of punishment has passed. It's not as if life in prison without possibility of parole is an adventure in fun, and the errant convict is still sequestered from society.

Plus (and what a bonus this is!), every now and again, we'd avoid executing someone who didn't freakin' do it.

Just sayin'.


I would agree with that if the prison system were reformed to make all sentences essentially solitary confinement. In the current system, you mix with other criminals, you form gangs among the prison population for self protection, learn to look and act like a thug (if you didn't know already), again for self protection, and listen in on informal lectures on how to break into homes, rob businesses, distribute drugs etc.

Making all prison sentences essentially solitary removes that aspect, and would probably allow sentences to be shorter - 10 years in solitary probably is a more unpleasant experience than 20 years in the current system, and more likely to deter future crime.

So yes I would agree with eliminating the death penalty if prisons are reformed so that they are not graduate universities for teaching criminal behavior.
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diverted
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Mon Apr 17, 2017 1:48 pm

Dreadnought wrote:
sccutler wrote:
On occasion, I idly wonder whether it is time to recognize that the death penalty's time as a means of punishment has passed. It's not as if life in prison without possibility of parole is an adventure in fun, and the errant convict is still sequestered from society.

Plus (and what a bonus this is!), every now and again, we'd avoid executing someone who didn't freakin' do it.

Just sayin'.


I would agree with that if the prison system were reformed to make all sentences essentially solitary confinement. In the current system, you mix with other criminals, you form gangs among the prison population for self protection, learn to look and act like a thug (if you didn't know already), again for self protection, and listen in on informal lectures on how to break into homes, rob businesses, distribute drugs etc.

Making all prison sentences essentially solitary removes that aspect, and would probably allow sentences to be shorter - 10 years in solitary probably is a more unpleasant experience than 20 years in the current system, and more likely to deter future crime.

So yes I would agree with eliminating the death penalty if prisons are reformed so that they are not graduate universities for teaching criminal behavior.



That's a tough one. I wouldn't want someone who's just done 10 years in solitary being released into the general public. You're going to be releasing some seriously mentally damaged individuals. Much better to teach them skills, trades etc. so that they can be functional members of society. (I know plenty of folks who made stupid decisions when they were 18-20, ended up serving time, and learned their lessons. Put them in solitary for those years, and they're gonna be seriously messed up)

That being said, I do agree with you about having criminals associating with pretty much only other criminals is probably not the best means of rehab, for the reasons you mentioned.

Now, when it comes to murder cases where someone is imprisoned with no chance of parole, I have no issue with them associating with other convicts in maximum security. They're never getting out, so who cares if they can swap stories?
 
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Dreadnought
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:58 pm

diverted wrote:
That's a tough one. I wouldn't want someone who's just done 10 years in solitary being released into the general public. You're going to be releasing some seriously mentally damaged individuals. Much better to teach them skills, trades etc. so that they can be functional members of society. (I know plenty of folks who made stupid decisions when they were 18-20, ended up serving time, and learned their lessons. Put them in solitary for those years, and they're gonna be seriously messed up)

That being said, I do agree with you about having criminals associating with pretty much only other criminals is probably not the best means of rehab, for the reasons you mentioned.

Now, when it comes to murder cases where someone is imprisoned with no chance of parole, I have no issue with them associating with other convicts in maximum security. They're never getting out, so who cares if they can swap stories?


Obviously "true" solitary would be extreme and would have the bad results you mentioned. When I say solitary, sure he can have contact with guards, rehab specialists, trade instructors etc. My point is that he should not have contact (or at least minimal contact) with other incarcerated criminals - especially physical contact where you have to start worrying about your safety. What solution can you think of that minimizes/eliminates contact with other prisoners while allowing contact with others, and doesn't result in mental damage? The end result SHOULD be that you come out of prison with a skill or two, no bad-ass attitude, and a deep desire not to go back to prison again. My solution would cost more per prisoner per day, because you can't just stack'em and rack'em, but I would hope that it would reduce the recidivism rate and thus the overall crime rate. I think that's a fair deal.

As for your point about people imprisoned for life, it's a fair point. Stack 'em and rack'em. But these should be the people who are truly in forever - no possibility of parole. And if David Berkowitz gets shanked by Charles Manson, would anyone really be sorry? Maybe we should leave a few weapons in there (just joking).
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luckyone
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:40 pm

My first thought when I saw this topic: What did the Duggars do now??
 
ltbewr
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:55 pm

There is no good, 'clean', humane or acceptable way to carry out a death penalty. Methods used over the years are no longer used due to serious problems that have presented. Chopping the head off with an ax, guillotine, or use bullets,are messy. Hanging was often done wrong and meant a horrible death the the executed as well as politically unacceptable due to mob lynchings mainly of innocent Black men. Gas is unacceptable due to the use of poison gases in Nazi era Germany. Electrocution can be too cruel and not always works if not done correctly. Now drugs are becoming unacceptable due to legal, liability, cruelty and problems in carrying them out.

Although a part of me wants to keep the death penalty for mass murders and terrorists who kill, maybe it is time to end its use by the Federal government, all state governments as well as the Military as it become impossible to carry out along with the many issues of uneven use, innocents executed and long term legal challenges costs.
 
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Mon Apr 17, 2017 6:40 pm

sccutler wrote:
On occasion, I idly wonder whether it is time to recognize that the death penalty's time as a means of punishment has passed. It's not as if life in prison without possibility of parole is an adventure in fun, and the errant convict is still sequestered from society.Plus (and what a bonus this is!), every now and again, we'd avoid executing someone who didn't freakin' do it.Just sayin'.


Fully agree.
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luckyone
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:02 pm

ltbewr wrote:
There is no good, 'clean', humane or acceptable way to carry out a death penalty. Methods used over the years are no longer used due to serious problems that have presented. Chopping the head off with an ax, guillotine, or use bullets,are messy. Hanging was often done wrong and meant a horrible death the the executed as well as politically unacceptable due to mob lynchings mainly of innocent Black men. Gas is unacceptable due to the use of poison gases in Nazi era Germany. Electrocution can be too cruel and not always works if not done correctly. Now drugs are becoming unacceptable due to legal, liability, cruelty and problems in carrying them out.

Although a part of me wants to keep the death penalty for mass murders and terrorists who kill, maybe it is time to end its use by the Federal government, all state governments as well as the Military as it become impossible to carry out along with the many issues of uneven use, innocents executed and long term legal challenges costs.

Gas chambers were used for many years after WW2 and knowledge of the holocaust accounts. The most recent one was 1999 in Arizona. The gas chamber is still a backup method for several states, but is less efficient than lethal injection. Personally, I'm more concerned about the people who perform the executions, rather than the killers. It's not the best way to be, but I'm not overly concerned about the comfort of someone who has intentionally taken the life of another. At the same time, they do deserve due process, which is expensive as hell. Let them live with what they've done in prison for the rest of their lives. Murder should carry an automatic life without parole sentence.

As for the safety of lethal injection, it wasn't raised in the public discussion until the medications used in previous methods were no longer available, as pharmaceutical companies would no longer sell them for use in state-organized executions.
 
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Mon Apr 17, 2017 7:26 pm

This is what happens when you create convoluted methods of killing people in a band to sanatise the process.

At the end of the day, you're killing someone, why not make it violent? Make the judges watch so they can see the actual outcome of the sentences they pass.
 
NoTime
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:10 pm

sccutler wrote:
On occasion, I idly wonder whether it is time to recognize that the death penalty's time as a means of punishment has passed. It's not as if life in prison without possibility of parole is an adventure in fun, and the errant convict is still sequestered from society.

Plus (and what a bonus this is!), every now and again, we'd avoid executing someone who didn't freakin' do it.

Just sayin'.


I would probably agree if the prison system wasn't continually "improved" to make life easier for convicts. Bring back manual labor, remove all the televisions, remove the gyms, make the meals contain only the most basic items needed to meet nutritional requirements, no softdrinks or coffee, only water, etc, etc.

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
Make the judges watch so they can see the actual outcome of the sentences they pass.


Agree 100%.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:35 pm

Death sentences has no place in an (advanced) society. There is no upside to the death penalty, nothing. Caring out the death penalty is inhumane, and people whom carry it out are murderers as well.

The prison system in America is outdated, but just look at how people here talk about other human beings whom have done something wrong. A good way to look at a prison system, from a Norwegian prison guard: someday the inmate will be back in society, so the inmate could be my neighbor in the future so we better make sure that when released the inmate comes out better then he went in. The recidivism number is far less in Norway then in America.

NoTime wrote:
I would probably agree if the prison system wasn't continually "improved" to make life easier for convicts. Bring back manual labor, remove all the televisions, remove the gyms, make the meals contain only the most basic items needed to meet nutritional requirements, no softdrinks or coffee, only water, etc, etc.


So if you want people to better themselves, this will not work, on the other hand, if you want to chant some populist view with no real reasoning behind it, then you did an absolute fine job mate.
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:33 am

Dutchy wrote:
Death sentences has no place in an (advanced) society. There is no upside to the death penalty, nothing. Caring out the death penalty is inhumane, and people whom carry it out are murderers as well.

The prison system in America is outdated, but just look at how people here talk about other human beings whom have done something wrong. A good way to look at a prison system, from a Norwegian prison guard: someday the inmate will be back in society, so the inmate could be my neighbor in the future so we better make sure that when released the inmate comes out better then he went in. The recidivism number is far less in Norway then in America.

NoTime wrote:
I would probably agree if the prison system wasn't continually "improved" to make life easier for convicts. Bring back manual labor, remove all the televisions, remove the gyms, make the meals contain only the most basic items needed to meet nutritional requirements, no softdrinks or coffee, only water, etc, etc.


So if you want people to better themselves, this will not work, on the other hand, if you want to chant some populist view with no real reasoning behind it, then you did an absolute fine job mate.


Well for a murderer they should never see the light of day again EVER! Some of these guys have committed crimes beyond the imagination. My only issue with the death penalty is our system of justice has flaws. I have a issue with circumstantial evidence being used to put someone on death row. However, when the evidence is overwhelming and DNA has backed it up I say fry them. Liberals have continued to challenge the only clean method we have which is lethal injection which liberal lawyers keep mounting challenges saying its cruel well now the drugs are drying up so some states are going back to alternate methods like firing squad or electric chair.
 
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Tue Apr 18, 2017 12:42 am

Dutchy wrote:
So if you want people to better themselves, this will not work


I don't care about people bettering themselves while they are in prison. If they haven't learned the basics of living in normal society outside of prison, then why in the world would I expect them to learn those skills inside prison?

I believe that prison should be more about punishment than rehabilitation. And, I honestly believe one of the best ways to reduce the recidivism rate is to make prison more of a punishment; more of a place that even the hardest of criminals would think "I really don't want to go back there."
 
LittleFokker
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:50 am

NoTime wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
So if you want people to better themselves, this will not work


I don't care about people bettering themselves while they are in prison. If they haven't learned the basics of living in normal society outside of prison, then why in the world would I expect them to learn those skills inside prison?

I believe that prison should be more about punishment than rehabilitation. And, I honestly believe one of the best ways to reduce the recidivism rate is to make prison more of a punishment; more of a place that even the hardest of criminals would think "I really don't want to go back there."


How do you feel about prison being a deterrent to crime rather than punishment for it?

I would like all those in favor of the death penalty to answer this question: do you think that anyone who is sufficiently motivated to murder has ever said to themselves "I would totally kill this asshole, except I'm in a death penalty state!"

If more people were honest that capital punishment was merely revenge porn, perhaps we could make some progress.
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LittleFokker
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:54 am

One other note: ethically speaking, life sentences in prison are more humane than 30-40 year ones (especially if said person is young enough to realistically see parole). By the time that person is released, society will have changed so much they are basically unemployable and useless to society.
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Tue Apr 18, 2017 3:16 am

LittleFokker wrote:
One other note: ethically speaking, life sentences in prison are more humane than 30-40 year ones (especially if said person is young enough to realistically see parole). By the time that person is released, society will have changed so much they are basically unemployable and useless to society.


Lot's of trades can be taught in prison that qualify an ex-con for employment. Cooks, Masons, Welders, to mention just a few. Just as an example, you can learn how to build a masonry wall of brick and block, knock it down, clean the brick for reuse, and build another wall. Felons can build new wings for prisons, weld bars to make new cells, cook to feed the masons and welders. Etc., etc.

I have no problem with a death penalty for certain crimes. However, I would establish a national review process so that, before anyone can be put to death, there must be stringent Federal review of the evidence and procedures in every case. If this review process finds fault with the evidence/process then the sentence must be set aside and there must then be a retrial or reduction in sentence.

Automatic reviews should not take more than a year.

Let the convicted felon select the method of execution from a menu of possibilities.
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Mir
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:15 am

Dreadnought wrote:

Obviously "true" solitary would be extreme and would have the bad results you mentioned. When I say solitary, sure he can have contact with guards, rehab specialists, trade instructors etc. My point is that he should not have contact (or at least minimal contact) with other incarcerated criminals - especially physical contact where you have to start worrying about your safety. What solution can you think of that minimizes/eliminates contact with other prisoners while allowing contact with others, and doesn't result in mental damage? The end result SHOULD be that you come out of prison with a skill or two, no bad-ass attitude, and a deep desire not to go back to prison again. My solution would cost more per prisoner per day, because you can't just stack'em and rack'em, but I would hope that it would reduce the recidivism rate and thus the overall crime rate. I think that's a fair deal.



I'd be on board with that, especially if we help offset the cost increases by simply not putting so many people in prison. Get rid of mandatory minimum sentences for non-violent drug offenses, start offering the same probation deals to black offenders that we do to white offenders, and stop making it so hard for people to have normal lives when they get out so that they can stay out.

As for the death penalty, the various governments involved have time after time proved themselves incompetent to properly and fairly run a justice system that includes a death penalty. There's racial bias involved, there are convictions of death row inmates overturned by new evidence, there are administrative blocks to challenges of innocence, etc. If the government can't handle the death penalty, they shouldn't get access to it. It's time for it to go, and go completely.
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Dreadnought
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:29 am

Mir wrote:
I'd be on board with that, especially if we help offset the cost increases by simply not putting so many people in prison. Get rid of mandatory minimum sentences for non-violent drug offenses, start offering the same probation deals to black offenders that we do to white offenders, and stop making it so hard for people to have normal lives when they get out so that they can stay out.


One thing that you might not be aware of - a lot of these so-called "non-violent drug offenders" that we are told fill our prisons are no such thing. Many of them are seasoned drug dealers with violent histories, but were caught in areas with swamped courts and the prosecutor was willing to take a guilty plea on a much lessor charge (i.e. a non-violent drug possession charge) rather than what he was actually doing. Generally speaking, nobody goes to jail just for possession or even for dealing small amounts. If someone is in jail supposedly for such a charge, it's most likely a plea bargain on a much bigger original charge.
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Dutchy
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:48 am

NoTime wrote:
And, I honestly believe one of the best ways to reduce the recidivism rate is to make prison more of a punishment; more of a place that even the hardest of criminals would think "I really don't want to go back there."


That is fine that you think that, but all serieus academic research shows that the opposite is true. So if that is the driver for you, you need to advocate to the Norwegian system, far better results. ;)
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:35 pm

NoTime wrote:
I don't care about people bettering themselves while they are in prison. If they haven't learned the basics of living in normal society outside of prison, then why in the world would I expect them to learn those skills inside prison?

I believe that prison should be more about punishment than rehabilitation. And, I honestly believe one of the best ways to reduce the recidivism rate is to make prison more of a punishment; more of a place that even the hardest of criminals would think "I really don't want to go back there."


Why not just cut off their hands, lock them up and throw away the key forever?

Your "honest belief" is wrong according to just about every study ever conducted on the subject, but hey, I suspect you don't care about that.
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GDB
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:43 pm

sccutler wrote:
On occasion, I idly wonder whether it is time to recognize that the death penalty's time as a means of punishment has passed. It's not as if life in prison without possibility of parole is an adventure in fun, and the errant convict is still sequestered from society.

Plus (and what a bonus this is!), every now and again, we'd avoid executing someone who didn't freakin' do it.

Just sayin'.


The numbers released on Death Row after unsafe or just plain wrong verdicts were found, shows around 4-5% of Death Row prisoners are innocent of the crime they have been convicted for.
So going backwards, the US states still doing the murdered by your local state thing, have in past done this to innocent people.

Given that some recent lethal injection ones have been horribly botched and been a prime example of 'Cruel and Unusual Punishment' which I understand is illegal under the US Constitution, the answer seems to be obvious.
Punishment takes several forms, loss of freedom, keeping the public safe, trying to prevent the prisoner re-offending, is there a clause for 'satisfying the blood lust of a portion of the population'?

When Albert Pierrepoint was one of Britain's last executioners, he devised a method where with careful weighing of the prisoner, the right counterweight, he could get a prisoner from his cell, blindfolded, noose on neck, pull the lever, here the careful weighing and rope length came in to ensure near instant death as the force did not strangle the prisoner but snapped his neck. All in 8 seconds.

In fact he was chosen to execute the Nazi war criminals under British control as the US strangulation method of hanging had horrified even hardened war veterans.
(He died in 1992, in his memoirs he felt that all of the hundreds he had executed from the 1930's to 1950's had not prevented any crime, after all these crimes were committed when we still had Capital Punishment.

The main reason we don't since 1965 was due in part to a series of events, Timothy Evans wrongfully hanged for the murder of his wife and baby in the notorious '10 Rillington Place' crimes, Evans was a young man with a low I.Q.
Derek Bentley whose accomplice shot and killed a policeman, the accomplice was too young to hang, Bentley however was, as he had told his accomplice to 'let him have it'. (They were caught on a wharehouse roof doing a break in and the Police told the accomplice to drop or hand over his gun, Bentley said he meant that too, he had no history of violence - unlike the accomplice - and like Evans, a very low I.Q.)
The last woman to be executed was Ruth Ellis, she did shoot and kill her lover, a rich playboy who beat her so badly she miscarried her child. When Pierrepoint came to her cell, she smiled.

The question I pose to death penalty supporters is this;
Would you approve of the shooting of unarmed Prisoners Of War?
If no, what is the difference between that and Judicial Murder? In both cases they are secured, in custody, no longer a threat.
(Another being welcome to a club that includes, China, Saudi Arabia, North Korea. Hardly any democracies still have it, the only one I can think of is Japan).
 
Redd
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:38 am

Dreadnought wrote:
sccutler wrote:
On occasion, I idly wonder whether it is time to recognize that the death penalty's time as a means of punishment has passed. It's not as if life in prison without possibility of parole is an adventure in fun, and the errant convict is still sequestered from society.

Plus (and what a bonus this is!), every now and again, we'd avoid executing someone who didn't freakin' do it.

Just sayin'.


I would agree with that if the prison system were reformed to make all sentences essentially solitary confinement. In the current system, you mix with other criminals, you form gangs among the prison population for self protection, learn to look and act like a thug (if you didn't know already), again for self protection, and listen in on informal lectures on how to break into homes, rob businesses, distribute drugs etc.

Making all prison sentences essentially solitary removes that aspect, and would probably allow sentences to be shorter - 10 years in solitary probably is a more unpleasant experience than 20 years in the current system, and more likely to deter future crime.

So yes I would agree with eliminating the death penalty if prisons are reformed so that they are not graduate universities for teaching criminal behavior.


I doubt that good reform is around any corner anytime soon. With the rapid rise of private prisons in the USA, like the hotel business, prisons want to have criminals stay as long as possible and or re-enter the correctional system as soon as possible after release.
 
Scorpio
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:36 am

NoTime wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
So if you want people to better themselves, this will not work


I don't care about people bettering themselves while they are in prison. If they haven't learned the basics of living in normal society outside of prison, then why in the world would I expect them to learn those skills inside prison?

I believe that prison should be more about punishment than rehabilitation. And, I honestly believe one of the best ways to reduce the recidivism rate is to make prison more of a punishment; more of a place that even the hardest of criminals would think "I really don't want to go back there."

Welcome to 19th century thinking. In this thing we call the REAL world, the opposite is true. Norway is a good example: they focus their prison system entirely on rehabilitation, with the prisons having been built and being run in such a way that life inside resembles life outside the prison as much as possible. And the results are spectacular: their recidivism is less then half the recidivism in the US.

Believing that if you make prisons as tough as possible will reduce recidivism is like believing the earth was created 6,000 years ago in the span of a week by some imaginary friend: you can believe it all you want, that doesn't mean it's true, and every specialist on the subject will easily prove it isn't...
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Wed Apr 19, 2017 11:51 am

Redd wrote:
Dreadnought wrote:
sccutler wrote:
On occasion, I idly wonder whether it is time to recognize that the death penalty's time as a means of punishment has passed. It's not as if life in prison without possibility of parole is an adventure in fun, and the errant convict is still sequestered from society.

Plus (and what a bonus this is!), every now and again, we'd avoid executing someone who didn't freakin' do it.

Just sayin'.


I would agree with that if the prison system were reformed to make all sentences essentially solitary confinement. In the current system, you mix with other criminals, you form gangs among the prison population for self protection, learn to look and act like a thug (if you didn't know already), again for self protection, and listen in on informal lectures on how to break into homes, rob businesses, distribute drugs etc.

Making all prison sentences essentially solitary removes that aspect, and would probably allow sentences to be shorter - 10 years in solitary probably is a more unpleasant experience than 20 years in the current system, and more likely to deter future crime.

So yes I would agree with eliminating the death penalty if prisons are reformed so that they are not graduate universities for teaching criminal behavior.


I doubt that good reform is around any corner anytime soon. With the rapid rise of private prisons in the USA, like the hotel business, prisons want to have criminals stay as long as possible and or re-enter the correctional system as soon as possible after release.


That is just a stupid system, for a society at large that is. Capitalism isn't everything you know.
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:39 pm

Dutchy wrote:
That is just a stupid system, for a society at large that is. Capitalism isn't everything you know.


Irrelevant. You don't think that a state-owned system works any differently? You ignore the fundemental rules of bureaucracies:

Rule #1: Maintain the problem at all costs! The problem is the basis of power, perks, privileges, and security.
Rule #2: Use crisis and perceived crisis to increase your power and control.
Rule #3: If there are not enough crises, manufacture them, even from nature, where none exist.
Rule #4: Control the flow and release of information while feigning openness.
Rule #5: Maximize public-relations exposure by creating a cover story that appeals to the universal need to help people.
Rule #6: Create vested support groups by distributing concentrated benefits and/or entitlements to these special interests, while distributing the costs broadly to one's political opponents.
Rule #7: Demonize the truth tellers who have the temerity to say, "The emperor has no clothes."

And finally you can add Parkinson's Law and correlaries which show how state bureaucracies continue to expand and grow, even in the absence of additional work. and how departments always seek to expand their manpower and reach, regardless of need. A state-owned prison system would see a decline in their prison population with no less alarm than a private business losing customers.

Could there be corruption at play in a privately owned prison system? Certainly and it needs to be squashed wherever found. But don't assume that state-owned is any better, morally or functionally.
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:46 pm

Dreadnought wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
That is just a stupid system, for a society at large that is. Capitalism isn't everything you know.


Irrelevant. You don't think that a state-owned system works any differently? You ignore the fundemental rules of bureaucracies:

Rule #1: Maintain the problem at all costs! The problem is the basis of power, perks, privileges, and security.
Rule #2: Use crisis and perceived crisis to increase your power and control.
Rule #3: If there are not enough crises, manufacture them, even from nature, where none exist.
Rule #4: Control the flow and release of information while feigning openness.
Rule #5: Maximize public-relations exposure by creating a cover story that appeals to the universal need to help people.
Rule #6: Create vested support groups by distributing concentrated benefits and/or entitlements to these special interests, while distributing the costs broadly to one's political opponents.
Rule #7: Demonize the truth tellers who have the temerity to say, "The emperor has no clothes."

And finally you can add Parkinson's Law and correlaries which show how state bureaucracies continue to expand and grow, even in the absence of additional work. and how departments always seek to expand their manpower and reach, regardless of need. A state-owned prison system would see a decline in their prison population with no less alarm than a private business losing customers.

Could there be corruption at play in a privately owned prison system? Certainly and it needs to be squashed wherever found. But don't assume that state-owned is any better, morally or functionally.


incentives are wrong.
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Wed Apr 19, 2017 1:55 pm

Dutchy wrote:
incentives are wrong.


So if I hire you to do work for me, I don't need to pay you?

You are being silly.
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:02 pm

Dreadnought wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
incentives are wrong.


So if I hire you to do work for me, I don't need to pay you?

You are being silly.


If you pay someone to lock someone up and nothing else, that's what you get. Nobody will come out of prison better than they got in and the risk of reoffending is quite high, as you have seen in America and they have the highest inmate population in the developed world. No really the system works wonders.
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Wed Apr 19, 2017 2:56 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Dreadnought wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
incentives are wrong.


So if I hire you to do work for me, I don't need to pay you?

You are being silly.


If you pay someone to lock someone up and nothing else, that's what you get. Nobody will come out of prison better than they got in and the risk of reoffending is quite high, as you have seen in America and they have the highest inmate population in the developed world. No really the system works wonders.


Which is why I propose to eliminate that portion of prison life that seems to encourage and promote criminal behavior, by severely restricting prisoner contact with other prisoners, so that gang culture and violence cannot use prisons (and yes, the state-owned prisons too) as incubation centers.

The US has an unusual society compared to most. You can't compare the social behavior of inmates in largely homogeneous societies such as Norway vs the US where you have almost half the country belonging to different ethnic groups, some of which don't like each other and some of which, let's face it, seem more predisposed to criminal behavior and have even developed a subculture that celebrates such behavior (the whole gangsta thing, for instance). You don't have that problem in Japan, or Norway, etc. That sub-culture started appearing in the late 70s and 80s, and lo-and-behold, that coincides exactly with the period when the incarceration rate skyrocketed.

Image

It's not a race thing - it's a cultural thing - people of all races have gotten caught up in it, but black americans most of all. Had that culture not reared its ugly head 40 years ago, who knows, maybe the black population would be far better integrated, having achieved equality, there would be no appetite for BLM and the race-hustling politicians.
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Wed Apr 19, 2017 3:43 pm

Your analysis isn't backed up by facts. If A happens and then B, it isn't necessary correlated. And that last bit is far too simplified.
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:04 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Your analysis isn't backed up by facts. If A happens and then B, it isn't necessary correlated. And that last bit is far too simplified.


Huh? The only "facts" you have thrown out along the preposterous lines of "capitalism sucks", and "incentives suck". Pot Kettle Black. If you care to put forward any kind of sound argument, please do so and we can argue facts. I will be glad to engage. But after the lazy crap you have issued in this thread, you are the last person to be in a position to criticize another's facts. (and I did put up a chart, LOL)
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Wed Apr 19, 2017 4:30 pm

I gave you the Norwegian model of handling offenders and they have a much better system if your aim is to reduce crime in society and in the end a much cheaper model for society. What you propose is locking them up and more or less throw away the key. The carrot and stick, you propose the stick and everything point to a carrot being much better if you want to change behavior.

Go and have a look in all the academic researched that have been done.

And America is indeed another kind of society, it is much harsher to its people, a lot less security than an average advanced society. A society is judged not how it handles its top, but how it treats it's worst.

"capitalism sucks", and "incentives suck".

Not what I said, I said capitalism has no place in the justice system. And I stand by that.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:13 pm

Dreadnought wrote:
You don't think that a state-owned system works any differently?

I do. When is the last time state owned prison officials were caught bribing judges for sentences? Quite a bit of that is going related to private prisons in the USA. Quite sickening.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-yan ... 44860.html

Dutchy wrote:
Not what I said, I said capitalism has no place in the justice system. And I stand by that.


Agree 100%
 
Redd
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:21 pm

Half of the world's prison population of about nine million is held in the US, China or Russia.



Country Prison population Population per 100,000
US 2,193,798 ------------- 737
CHINA 1,548,498 --------------- 118
RUSSIA 874,161 ---------------- 615
BRAZIL 371,482 ----------------- 193

Something in the US isn't quite right. Either Americans are nearly 10% criminals and horrible people or the system is more Police State and Totalitarian than China.....
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Wed Apr 19, 2017 7:46 pm

Redd wrote:
Half of the world's prison population of about nine million is held in the US, China or Russia.



Country Prison population Population per 100,000
US 2,193,798 ------------- 737
CHINA 1,548,498 --------------- 118
RUSSIA 874,161 ---------------- 615
BRAZIL 371,482 ----------------- 193

Something in the US isn't quite right. Either Americans are nearly 10% criminals and horrible people or the system is more Police State and Totalitarian than China.....


1%, but indeed something is quite wrong here. China isn't quite open about its prison system, so I would take that number with a grain of salt. China is said to carry out the most death sentences in the world, but exact numbers aren't in the open.
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cpd
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:34 pm

Dreadnought wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
incentives are wrong.


So if I hire you to do work for me, I don't need to pay you?

You are being silly.



Of course you don't need to pay. You hire people on unpaid trials and other similar schemes. It is acceptable business practice these days.
 
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:15 am

Dutchy wrote:
1%,



Yup, my mistake.
 
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:23 am

ltbewr wrote:
There is no good, 'clean', humane or acceptable way to carry out a death penalty. Methods used over the years are no longer used due to serious problems that have presented. Chopping the head off with an ax, guillotine, or use bullets,are messy. Hanging was often done wrong and meant a horrible death the the executed as well as politically unacceptable due to mob lynchings mainly of innocent Black men. Gas is unacceptable due to the use of poison gases in Nazi era Germany. Electrocution can be too cruel and not always works if not done correctly. Now drugs are becoming unacceptable due to legal, liability, cruelty and problems in carrying them out.

Although a part of me wants to keep the death penalty for mass murders and terrorists who kill, maybe it is time to end its use by the Federal government, all state governments as well as the Military as it become impossible to carry out along with the many issues of uneven use, innocents executed and long term legal challenges costs.


Have you ever seen a dog or cat put down, the pump them full of blue juice and they are dead very quickly, they don't struggle, they don't appear to be in pain, they just die.

That said why should we care if a person condemed to death has a painless passing, does it really matter, they recieved a death sentance, chances are they committed a pretty horrible act which led to someone probably dying.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:30 am

Dutchy wrote:
I gave you the Norwegian model of handling offenders and they have a much better system if your aim is to reduce crime in society and in the end a much cheaper model for society. What you propose is locking them up and more or less throw away the key. The carrot and stick, you propose the stick and everything point to a carrot being much better if you want to change behavior.

Go and have a look in all the academic researched that have been done.

And America is indeed another kind of society, it is much harsher to its people, a lot less security than an average advanced society. A society is judged not how it handles its top, but how it treats it's worst.

"capitalism sucks", and "incentives suck".

Not what I said, I said capitalism has no place in the justice system. And I stand by that.


That only works because Norway is still mostly homogenous, once the immigrant population starts to increase in numbers this will change; already the prison population is majority foreign born. Many in Norway are also rather outraged at the leniency of sentencing. I have a neighbour that's a convicted paedophile, he received 4 years for raping his foster child, the rapes took place over a ten year period, he gets 4 years and was out on weekend release after 2 of them and is about to come home. There's no sex offenders list, this person will be sent back to a neighbourhood where there are dozens of young girls, it's not right.
 
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:30 am

Kiwirob wrote:
ltbewr wrote:
There is no good, 'clean', humane or acceptable way to carry out a death penalty. Methods used over the years are no longer used due to serious problems that have presented. Chopping the head off with an ax, guillotine, or use bullets,are messy. Hanging was often done wrong and meant a horrible death the the executed as well as politically unacceptable due to mob lynchings mainly of innocent Black men. Gas is unacceptable due to the use of poison gases in Nazi era Germany. Electrocution can be too cruel and not always works if not done correctly. Now drugs are becoming unacceptable due to legal, liability, cruelty and problems in carrying them out.

Although a part of me wants to keep the death penalty for mass murders and terrorists who kill, maybe it is time to end its use by the Federal government, all state governments as well as the Military as it become impossible to carry out along with the many issues of uneven use, innocents executed and long term legal challenges costs.


Have you ever seen a dog or cat put down, the pump them full of blue juice and they are dead very quickly, they don't struggle, they don't appear to be in pain, they just die.

That said why should we care if a person condemed to death has a painless passing, does it really matter, they recieved a death sentance, chances are they committed a pretty horrible act which led to someone probably dying.


An eye for an eye will make everyone blind. In a humane society, I think we should care. Of course, there are far better methods than they are using, but they can't use medical personal and drug companies are walking away from this.
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:37 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
I gave you the Norwegian model of handling offenders and they have a much better system if your aim is to reduce crime in society and in the end a much cheaper model for society. What you propose is locking them up and more or less throw away the key. The carrot and stick, you propose the stick and everything point to a carrot being much better if you want to change behavior.

Go and have a look in all the academic researched that have been done.

And America is indeed another kind of society, it is much harsher to its people, a lot less security than an average advanced society. A society is judged not how it handles its top, but how it treats it's worst.

"capitalism sucks", and "incentives suck".

Not what I said, I said capitalism has no place in the justice system. And I stand by that.


That only works because Norway is still mostly homogenous, once the immigrant population starts to increase in numbers this will change; already the prison population is majority foreign born. Many in Norway are also rather outraged at the leniency of sentencing. I have a neighbour that's a convicted paedophile, he received 4 years for raping his foster child, the rapes took place over a ten year period, he gets 4 years and was out on weekend release after 2 of them and is about to come home. There's no sex offenders list, this person will be sent back to a neighbourhood where there are dozens of young girls, it's not right.


"In 2012, an official study showed that 86%[161] of the total population have at least one parent who was born in Norway. More than 710,000 individuals (14%)[162] are immigrants and their descendants; there are 117,000 children of immigrants, born in Norway." per wiki.

So Norway is already quite a diverse country, to begin with.

Look I am not going to defend child molesters, but the thing I believe in the most is that everyone, no matter what they did, should be able to return to society. So unless you feel the need to lock everyone up for the rest of their lives, they need to work out what works best so that the act isn't repeated anymore.
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:45 am

Dutchy wrote:

An eye for an eye will make everyone blind. In a humane society, I think we should care. Of course, there are far better methods than they are using, but they can't use medical personal and drug companies are walking away from this.


Use a firing squad, I can't see any reason why it couldn't be automated and computer controlled. I also don't see any reason why society should have to pay for keeping some people alive who should be dead, Anders Belvik is a prime example of someone who really should have been executed, it was open and shut, nobody else could have done what he did, and there would have been no mistaken execution. Now that he's still alive he's still able to torment the families of his victims, which he does every time he opens his trap.

Image
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:50 am

Dutchy wrote:

Look I am not going to defend child molesters, but the thing I believe in the most is that everyone, no matter what they did, should be able to return to society. So unless you feel the need to lock everyone up for the rest of their lives, they need to work out what works best so that the act isn't repeated anymore.


There are large numbers of people who just aren't capable of being returned to society, it happens over and over again where criminals are released and end up behind bars in short order.
 
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:55 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

An eye for an eye will make everyone blind. In a humane society, I think we should care. Of course, there are far better methods than they are using, but they can't use medical personal and drug companies are walking away from this.


Use a firing squad, I can't see any reason why it couldn't be automated and computer controlled. I also don't see any reason why society should have to pay for keeping some people alive who should be dead, Anders Belvik is a prime example of someone who really should have been executed, it was open and shut, nobody else could have done what he did, and there would have been no mistaken execution. Now that he's still alive he's still able to torment the families of his victims, which he does every time he opens his trap.


If you feel that no person has the right to take other persons life, then why should the government be able to? And obviously, I am not talking about self-defense or the defence of others. That is on a more philosophical level.

As regards to the cost of a death penalty case, it has been shown that a death sentence is far more expensive than live in prison, in the US that is.
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Dutchy
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Thu Apr 20, 2017 11:01 am

But @Kiwirob let's agree to disagree, all the arguments for or against the death penalty are well known. I will be against it for moral and practical reasons. You are for this outdated penalty method to be cared out, that is your right to see things differently.

I will never convince you, and neither will you convince me.

I'll leave you with one thought, no system is perfect, so if you are for the death penalty, you have to accept that a certain percentage of the cases, an innocent man is convicted and put to death. In America, it has been shown to be around 5%. In the Netherlands, we have had a couple of cases in which a conviction is overturned after a number of years, so it's not just America with its flawed legal system where this kind of things happens.
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Kiwirob
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Thu Apr 20, 2017 12:06 pm

I'd the issue in the US is too many appeals, if you're convicted you should get one appeal, if you lose that then bye bye. I will say that the death penalty should only be given out if the evidence against the accused in iron clad, i.e. like ABB it's was caught on video for the world to see, there was no way it could ever have been someone else.

Dutchy wrote:
But @Kiwirob let's agree to disagree, all the arguments for or against the death penalty are well known. I will be against it for moral and practical reasons. You are for this outdated penalty method to be cared out, that is your right to see things differently.

I will never convince you, and neither will you convince me.

I'll leave you with one thought, no system is perfect, so if you are for the death penalty, you have to accept that a certain percentage of the cases, an innocent man is convicted and put to death. In America, it has been shown to be around 5%. In the Netherlands, we have had a couple of cases in which a conviction is overturned after a number of years, so it's not just America with its flawed legal system where this kind of things happens.


I understand that some mistakes have been made and the wrong person put to death, but I would like to think that mistakes today will be significantly less, especially if the death sentence is only used on iron clad prosecutions, i.e. for people like ABB where there is absolutely no doubt about who did it.
 
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Re: Arkansas Wants To Carry Out Death Sentences In Bulk

Thu Apr 20, 2017 1:05 pm

What is iron clad for you? ABB, is Andreas Brivink? How about mentally competent? There you have a gray area. Do you consider murder (premeditated) and manslaughter ("spur" of the moment) in the same category?

The iron-clad argument is a bit weak, nothing is iron-clad. So if you are advocating for the death penalty, then you have to accept that someone innocent is killed, no matter how high the bar is.
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