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Surprised this hasn't been posted already, but Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan has emerged victorious this evening. According to 'NBC News', 51.3% of Turkish voters backed his proposed Constitutional amendments, which will fundamentally change the Turkish political system by creating an Executive Presidency. NBC also helpfully points out that this means a margin of victory for Erdogan of approximately 1.3 million votes.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/turke ... ud-n747161

Democracy almost made it.

People democratically choosing a dictatorship, it has to be a first in modern history. how does one rationalize electing to live in a police state?

wingman wrote:

People democratically choosing a dictatorship, it has to be a first in modern history. how does one rationalize electing to live in a police state?

That's assuming the vote was democratic.

In practice, journalists are in prison, opponents too, and anyone campaigning for the no was threatened by police and militias alike.

So we have another dictatorship now.
A modern & progressive country, all set to be ruined.

wingman wrote:

People democratically choosing a dictatorship, it has to be a first in modern history. how does one rationalize electing to live in a police state?

There was no way this vote was going to end well. Either we were going to get the result we did and a megalomaniac is now an elected dictator, or the megalomaniac would have lost and would have done all that he could to artificially raise tension yet again, provoke the Kurds even more than he did when he lost the first referendum (recall this is the second attempt), create more insecurity and then tell a worried population once again that he alone could save them before holding a third referendum.

One way or the other, sanity and good governance were not going to come out the better this weekend.

That result is turked, as simple as that.

Aesma wrote:

Democracy almost made it.

It's democracy! The Turkish way of course. For Erdogan it's mission accomplished. For the Europeam Union it's good news although nobody will confirm this. Good news because this result means that Turkey will not be allowed to become a EU member, Turkish people will never be allowed to travel into the EU without a visa and that tourism will get a blow in the near future.

There are many reports of irregularities out there, this cannot be the end. But hey, what a surprise, who woud've thought that after such a fair and lovely campaign ! Only yesterday no-voters were labelled as terrorist and today we're all supposed to be brothers and sisters LMAO.
The result will be challenged and here it will (finally) show which opposition parties / figures are for real and which ones are a mere joke. Even if it's not going to change a lot in the end, this cannot go down without a fight (not phisically speaking of course).
Upside, he did not win the biggest and most important cities (Istanbul, Ankara, Izmir, Antalya). Especially Istanbul and Ankara are a big blow, even though he will surely be mute about that (He used to be mayor of Istanbul and had never lost Istanbul since 2002).

Ok, the path chosen is clearly away from liberal democracy and more in the direction of an autocracy. At least it is clear that Erdogan / Turkey won't be joining the EU, so the EU cans stop shoveling money into that goal.

THY748i wrote:

There are many reports of irregularities out there, this cannot be the end.

Since the Erdogan regime locked up numerous of officials, judges, media personal, teachers, layers, military personal, opposition leaders etc., whom is left to oppose the power of Erdogan? Whom even dares to?

Martin Niemöller wrote:

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out —
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out —
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out —
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me —
and there was no one left to speak for me."

Dutchy wrote:

THY748i wrote:

There are many reports of irregularities out there, this cannot be the end.

Since the Erdogan regime locked up numerous of officials, judges, media personal, teachers, layers, military personal, opposition leaders etc., whom is left to oppose the power of Erdogan? Whom even dares to?

Martin Niemöller wrote:

"First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out —
Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out —
Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out —
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me —
and there was no one left to speak for me."

Can Dündar (whose spirit is just simply unbreakable!), Meral Aksener and many many others come to mind! There are a lot of people who still dare to speak but they're given no weight at all or are defamed. Last but not least, the people on the streets! There were a lot of protests going on last night but none of the big television chains paid any attention to it. They were blabbering on about the results and others went on to the usual telenovelas and mindless reality TV shows. Luckily there is social media nowadays and we don't have to soley rely on CNN Türk and the likes anymore.
The core problem of the turkish opposition is that they're not united at all, one of the reasons why Erdogan got elected time and time again (and let's be real, except for maybe the first time in 2002 it's not pro or anti AKP but pro or anti Erdogan). If this referendum is not a fu**ing wake up call, what else could be?! CHP, HDP the breakaway part of the MHP and the other smaller parties have to get over themselves and contest the result all together!
Also, thank you for the quote, very true words. We are quite there in Turkey, with some parts of Europe slowly following.

Dutchy wrote:

Ok, the path chosen is clearly away from liberal democracy and more in the direction of an autocracy. At least it is clear that Erdogan / Turkey won't be joining the EU, so the EU cans stop shoveling money into that goal.

Sure but the EU will still need to pump millions anyway because Mr Erdogan is blackmailing the EU otherwise he will Quote ''Flood the EU with refugees''.

Sad day for Turkey and as the results show Turkey is now a divided nation. Expect major bloodshed in the next decade or so. Worrying times ahead.

OA260 wrote:

Sure but the EU will still need to pump millions anyway because Mr Erdogan is blackmailing the EU otherwise he will Quote ''Flood the EU with refugees''.

Sad day for Turkey and as the results show Turkey is now a divided nation. Expect major bloodshed in the next decade or so. Worrying times ahead.

Th EU should call his bluff, grow a pair of balls and close off the EU border to Turkey, any refugee who tries to cross gets turned away, if it takes force to do this then so be it.

Kiwirob wrote:

Th EU should call his bluff, grow a pair of balls and close off the EU border to Turkey, any refugee who tries to cross gets turned away, if it takes force to do this then so be it.

Even if the will was there, it isn't that easy. Some Greek islands are so close to Turkey there is barely enough room to sail a corvette and fire at would-be migrants crossing on just about anything that floats. Before Turkey agreed to stop departures, Greek islands were overrun by refugees floating over on a daily basis.

The EU is always keen to be the "reasonable" partner. If they did have the will to play hardball, they'd threaten to close EU borders to all Turk citizens if Erdogan does try to flood the EU with refugees. To be fair, though, Turkey is hosting millions of refugees for reason no other than geography, and if the EU is unable to settle its refugees, Turkey cannot be expected to perform any better.

Kiwirob wrote:

OA260 wrote:

Sure but the EU will still need to pump millions anyway because Mr Erdogan is blackmailing the EU otherwise he will Quote ''Flood the EU with refugees''.

Sad day for Turkey and as the results show Turkey is now a divided nation. Expect major bloodshed in the next decade or so. Worrying times ahead.

Th EU should call his bluff, grow a pair of balls and close off the EU border to Turkey, any refugee who tries to cross gets turned away, if it takes force to do this then so be it.

The EU doesn't know how to think. The one time they show solidarity and it's to put a law on the table calling for tourist visas for Americans... Screw Putin, Europe is going to be Erdogan's folly.

blueflyer wrote:

Even if the will was there, it isn't that easy. Some Greek islands are so close to Turkey there is barely enough room to sail a corvette and fire at would-be migrants crossing on just about anything that floats. Before Turkey agreed to stop departures, Greek islands were overrun by refugees floating over on a daily basis.

The EU is always keen to be the "reasonable" partner. If they did have the will to play hardball, they'd threaten to close EU borders to all Turk citizens if Erdogan does try to flood the EU with refugees. To be fair, though, Turkey is hosting millions of refugees for reason no other than geography, and if the EU is unable to settle its refugees, Turkey cannot be expected to perform any better.

There's the problem. You can shut off the land border, but that won't stop the boats from launching toward the Greek islands that lie within site of Turkey. Using force is only going to hurt the refugees, not Erdogan. At the end of the day, Greece will, once again, end up bearing the brunt of the refugee crisis if the EU calls Turkey's bluff and the land border is closed. That's not to say that eventuality would stop the larger EU powers from calling Turkey's bluff, just that that Erdogan isn't the one who'll end up paying for such a decision by the EU.

So Erdogan is slowly achieving his goal of becoming Turkey's hard-lined, opposition and free speech-destroying, islamist dictator, and amid global criticism and worry about Turkey's future, you'll never guess who personally called Erdogan to congratulate him on his win...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39626116

Is it because these 2 men share an equal disrespect for democratic values and the same love for authoritarian regimes, or is it because Trump has businesses in Turkey and wants to retain the favors of its new dictator?

We might never know...

I'm starting to like Erdogan, he can't be all bad when eurocrats hate him so much. At least he has respect for his country, its traditions and people unlike our leaders.

Perhaps by the end of the century Islamist Turkey and the European Union will be good friends again, after demographic change has filled Western Europe with people who share similar values to those of Erdogan.

pvjin wrote:

I'm starting to like Erdogan, he can't be all bad when eurocrats hate him so much. At least he has respect for his country, its traditions and people unlike our leaders.

Perhaps by the end of the century Islamist Turkey and the European Union will be good friends again, after demographic change has filled Western Europe with people who share similar values to those of Erdogan.

No surprise there, with this kind of view from you. Bashing the EU where you can and share your love for autocratic leaders. No real knowledge of the problem shown, just bashing the EU is your agenda. That is fine, but it doesn't add anything to the discusion.

Francoflier wrote:

So Erdogan is slowly achieving his goal of becoming Turkey's hard-lined, opposition and free speech-destroying, islamist dictator, and amid global criticism and worry about Turkey's future, you'll never guess who personally called Erdogan to congratulate him on his win...

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39626116

Is it because these 2 men share an equal disrespect for democratic values and the same love for authoritarian regimes, or is it because Trump has businesses in Turkey and wants to retain the favors of its new dictator?

We might never know...

Yes, America with this president, has drifted along way from its value's where it used to stand for.

pvjin wrote:

I'm starting to like Erdogan, he can't be all bad when eurocrats hate him so much. At least he has respect for his country, its traditions and people unlike our leaders.

Perhaps by the end of the century Islamist Turkey and the European Union will be good friends again, after demographic change has filled Western Europe with people who share similar values to those of Erdogan.

The Eu and eurocrats are one the most corrupt and condescending groups on the planet. Even EUrophiles agree on this.

But this Erdogan is one character. One of those eccentric leaders whose behavior gets more weird as he gets older. He likes horse parades, tacky goldplated phones , built his 500 room palace in some nature reserve and then it got extensions shortly after being completed. I will keep the analysis of Erdogan to this. Maybe the only reason you like is he treats the Eu like a floormat. But there are other qualities to politicians.

helhem wrote:

The Eu and eurocrats are one the most corrupt and condescending groups on the planet. Even EUrophiles agree on this.

bollocks, proof?

you got that wrong, helhem, Erdogan iis trhe corrupt one, he and his familyhave their fingers in dirty deals and the Turkish People just gave him a carte blanche. He can do what he wants now, he cannot be prosecuted, there are no checks and balances, he basically owns Turkey now as his private property.

How can a Population be so stupid, it has been done before, there are plenty of bad examples in history but the demagogic trick works over and over again. Unfortunately there ae always more sheep than foxes.

Or, as we say here, only the dumbest calves select their own butchers.

wingman wrote:

People democratically choosing a dictatorship, it has to be a first in modern history. how does one rationalize electing to live in a police state?

Hardly. How do you think the Nazis rose to power?

DocLightning wrote:

wingman wrote:

People democratically choosing a dictatorship, it has to be a first in modern history. how does one rationalize electing to live in a police state?

Hardly. How do you think the Nazis rose to power?

And the communists in Czechoslovakia after WWII.

What is really sad is a huge support for Mr. Erdogan and his constitutional changes among Turkish expats in Germany and France.
But then, why an I surprised? There is a lot of hard core commies among our '68 - ers.

I keep my views of the EU to myself as it is not the topic. Although one wonders if one has hit a nerve.

I listed some of the more eccentric qualities of Erdogan which is like ammunition on social media. Maybe its the reason they go after that down there. Erdogan is in tinpot territory where corruption etc is to be expected.

The expats (or may their children etc ) supporting Erdogan in western Europe are mostly result of migrant workers moving in many decades ago. A lot of these people came from areas deep in the country where Erdogan is more popular. Off the bat maybe he is more popular among the expats than in Turkey ? The political rallying issues from a while ago in the Netherlands and Germany come to mind. There are only a small number of Turkish citizens eligible to vote in Finland and Erdogan was overwhelmingly not popular here. Different origins of these people apparently. Erdogan was much less successful in the big cities in Turkey

PanHAM wrote:

How can a Population be so stupid, it has been done before, there are plenty of bad examples in history but the demagogic trick works over and over again. Unfortunately there ae always more sheep than foxes.

Desperation, lack of education, or both. Also, we're assuming this was a free and fair election. I think that remains to be seen.

Nobody's assuming that. It was clearly not free and fair.

Aesma wrote:

Nobody's assuming that. It was clearly not free and fair.

Right, so my point is, we can't really lay blame on the Turkish people here. Yes they initially elected him, and they share blame for that, but it's unclear what actual support for this law would have been in a free and fair election.

OA412 wrote:

lack of education, or both.

I was reading that many women in rural Turkish towns and villages were told to vote Yes by their husbands and Male figures in their families and communities.

OA412 wrote:

PanHAM wrote:

How can a Population be so stupid, it has been done before, there are plenty of bad examples in history but the demagogic trick works over and over again. Unfortunately there ae always more sheep than foxes.

Desperation, lack of education, or both. Also, we're assuming this was a free and fair election. I think that remains to be seen.

Somehow very high percentage of Turkish nationals in the EU also support Erdogan, despite the fact they are likely to have higher education on average than their countrymen in Turkey.

I don't see desperation and lack of education here. What I see is a conflict of values. Not everybody supports western ideals of democracy, human rights and freedom of speech. Political Islam is now rising also in Europe thanks to migration and high birth rate in Islamic families, and eventually it will affect our governments also. I would be highly surprised if there are many secular Western European democracies left by 2150.

pvjin wrote:

OA412 wrote:

PanHAM wrote:

How can a Population be so stupid, it has been done before, there are plenty of bad examples in history but the demagogic trick works over and over again. Unfortunately there ae always more sheep than foxes.

Desperation, lack of education, or both. Also, we're assuming this was a free and fair election. I think that remains to be seen.

Somehow very high percentage of Turkish nationals in the EU also support Erdogan, despite the fact they are likely to have higher education on average than their countrymen in Turkey.

I don't see desperation and lack of education here. What I see is a conflict of values. Not everybody supports western ideals of democracy, human rights and freedom of speech. Political Islam is now rising also in Europe thanks to migration and high birth rate in Islamic families, and eventually it will affect our governments also. I would be highly surprised if there are many secular Western European democracies left by 2150.

Erdogan has flown Turks into Europe to start protests on his behalf. Take that with a grain of salt.

OA260 wrote:

I was reading that many women in rural Turkish towns and villages were told to vote Yes by their husbands and Male figures in their families and communities.

That does not surprise me at all.

pvjin wrote:

I'm starting to like Erdogan, he can't be all bad when eurocrats hate him so much. At least he has respect for his country, its traditions and people unlike our leaders.

I don't think the Turkish traditions promoted by Ataturk included "rule by decree" and "dissolve parliament on a whim".

I hate to quote the prequels but "so this is how democracy dies, with thunderous applause".

I wonder when the Enabling Act was passed were there similar celebrations in the streets?

pvjin wrote:

OA412 wrote:

PanHAM wrote:

How can a Population be so stupid, it has been done before, there are plenty of bad examples in history but the demagogic trick works over and over again. Unfortunately there ae always more sheep than foxes.

Desperation, lack of education, or both. Also, we're assuming this was a free and fair election. I think that remains to be seen.

Somehow very high percentage of Turkish nationals in the EU also support Erdogan, despite the fact they are likely to have higher education on average than their countrymen in Turkey.

I don't see desperation and lack of education here. What I see is a conflict of values. Not everybody supports western ideals of democracy, human rights and freedom of speech. Political Islam is now rising also in Europe thanks to migration and high birth rate in Islamic families, and eventually it will affect our governments also. I would be highly surprised if there are many secular Western European democracies left by 2150.

Maybe Orthodox Eastern Christianity can ward that off.

anshabhi wrote:

So we have another dictatorship now.
A modern & progressive country, all set to be ruined.

We don't have that dictatorship. They have it.

WildcatYXU wrote:

[
What is really sad is a huge support for Mr. Erdogan and his constitutional changes among Turkish expats in Germany and France.
But then, why an I surprised? There is a lot of hard core commies among our '68 - ers.

As Europeans we only have ourselves to blame.

The public commentary by European governments and shameful incidents leading up the referendum back fired and clearly made many Turks in Europe realize how locals see them - as second class citizens and pushed them right into Erdogan open arms.

LCKip wrote:

For the Europeam Union it's good news although nobody will confirm this. Good news because this result means that Turkey will not be allowed to become a EU member.

Don't worry, Turks don't want Europe either. Opinion polls in are something like 2/3 against EU membership these days.

Erdogan recently stated that he could pursue a referendum for people to decide of Turkey should close the book in EU membership for good.

Kiwirob wrote:

Th EU should call his bluff, grow a pair of balls and close off the EU border to Turkey, any refugee who tries to cross gets turned away, if it takes force to do this then so be it.

Keep dreaming. Europe cant even deport those rejected for refugee status which later become terrorist in our midst, let alone actually physically stop anyone at the border. Unless Europe is taken over my right-wing nationalist leaders, today's crop of lefties will never reject such refugee arrivals.

pvjin wrote:

Political Islam is now rising also in Europe thanks to migration and high birth rate in Islamic families, and eventually it will affect our governments also. I would be highly surprised if there are many secular Western European democracies left by 2150.

By 2150? Dude, you are optimistic. If nothing changes drastically in old Europe anytime soon, our kids/grand-kids may see the end of now still great and glorious European nations such as French, Belgians, Germans by the end of this century. Their place will be taken by "caliphates" a-la Saudi Arabia or ISIS.

pvjin wrote:

What I see is a conflict of values. Not everybody supports western ideals of democracy, human rights and freedom of speech.

That is absolutely correct. The major problem is that what the Europeans still consider "ideals" (such as solidarity, democracy, freedoms of all sorts) have been discredited totally outside of these countries. It was exactly the vocabulary that has been used when Western countries dismantled statehood and thrown into poverty and civil wars even big countries and whole regions (Yugoslavia, Iraq, recently Ukraine and whole North Africa/Middle East). And hence the rest of the world sees this and has their own associations.

From Wiki:

Every fit male Turkish citizen otherwise not barred is required to serve in the military for a period ranging from three weeks to a year, dependent on education and job location. Turkey does not recognize conscientious objection and does not offer a civilian alternative to military service.

Turkey has the second largest standing military force in NATO, after the US Armed Forces, with an estimated strength of 495,000 deployable forces, according to a 2011 NATO estimate. Turkey is one of five NATO member states which are part of the nuclear sharing policy of the alliance, together with Belgium, Germany, Italy, and the Netherlands. A total of 90 B61 nuclear bombs are hosted at the Incirlik Air Base, 40 of which are allocated for use by the Turkish Air Force in case of a nuclear conflict, but their use requires the approval of NATO.

Turkey, interesting country, won't be seeing any of my holiday money any more.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39716631

Another crack down just underway. 1,000 arrested another 2200 on hit list, where are they going to put these people, the prisons are overflowing already from the last purge?

The European council (not to be confused with the European Union: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe) of which Turkey is a member, has expressed its serious concerns with the direction the Turkish democracy is heading. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... ights-pace
The reaction of the Turkish government is so predictable: "The unprecedented decision to reinstate monitoring of a Council of Europe member triggered a furious reaction from the Turkish government, which said the “unjust” move was motivated by xenophobia and Islamophobia."

Its everybody's fault except.....

In other news: "Erdogan says Turkey could reconsider its position on Europe"

"President Tayyip Erdogan told Reuters on Tuesday that Turkey would reconsider its position on joining the European Union if it was kept waiting much longer and if the current hostile mentality of some member states persists."
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-turke ... SKBN17R2GG

Face saving measure? As it currently stands, membership of the EU is about as far away as it gets. Democracy-wise, human rights, the rule of law-wise, conflict with EU member Cyprus, conflict with the PKK in Iraq and Syria.

Currently, the EU pays millions of Euro's to Turkey to change its way to comply to European, among others to modernize the Turkish prison system. The same system that put people away without due process and reportedly tortures people.

EU membership never had a good chance of happening, but now it's only a Turkish talking point, in the EU it's like if you were suggesting Australia was going to join. Australia would have a better chance, actually.

The real question is trade. Will trade continue to thrive between Turkey and the EU ?

Aesma wrote:

EU membership never had a good chance of happening, but now it's only a Turkish talking point, in the EU it's like if you were suggesting Australia was going to join. Australia would have a better chance, actually.

The real question is trade. Will trade continue to thrive between Turkey and the EU ?

Not anything like in the past with this level of crack down, EU will distance itself.

anrec80 wrote:

It was exactly the vocabulary that has been used when Western countries dismantled statehood and thrown into poverty and civil wars even big countries and whole regions (Yugoslavia, Iraq, recently Ukraine and whole North Africa/Middle East). And hence the rest of the world sees this and has their own associations.

Yugoslavia? Seriously? No one dismantled "statehood" in Yugoslavia. It was Serbia which tried to keep dysfunctional federation together by force and has thrown the entire country into a decade of madness.
Ukraine? Again a problem of Russia not knowing where it begins and where it ends.

So another 4.000 civil servants dismissed. So we are over 120.000 people axed and 40.000 in prison, the excuse is still the coup.

And yeah, also a dating game is axed from Turkish national television because the president thinks it is not in line with traditional Turkish values.

Not to mention that Wikipedia is partly or fully blacked ou in Turkey. All by presidential decret and without a chane of a court Appeal. The President has the unchallenged first and last word. No checks and balances. A remarkable Definition of "Democracy".
I think it Was max Liebermann who said around 1933: "I could not eat as much as I could vomit"