seb146
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Different Religions, Same Holiday

Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:42 am

Maybe someone could suggest a better title.

I have often wondered something:

The founder of the Christian religion, Jesus Christ, was Jewish. Why don't Christians put more emphasis on Jewish holidays? I realize that Christmas and Easter are holy days in the Christian calendar, but Passover and Hanukkah should be important too, shouldn't they?
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Kiwirob
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:21 am

If it would give me more days off work I'd support any and all religious holiday's regardless of whatever fairytale they are in support of!
 
BMI727
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:54 am

seb146 wrote:
The founder of the Christian religion, Jesus Christ, was Jewish. Why don't Christians put more emphasis on Jewish holidays? I realize that Christmas and Easter are holy days in the Christian calendar, but Passover and Hanukkah should be important too, shouldn't they?

There's probably a lot of pieces to the answer but here are a couple of them:

First, Christianity started as a Jewish sect but did not stay that way very long. There were very real arguments in the early church (within decades of Jesus) over whether or not one had to be Jewish in order to become a Christian (which meant the difference between being circumcised or not). Eventually St. Peter became the de facto apostle to Jews and St. Paul became the de facto apostle to gentiles, the end result being that early Christianity very quickly gained many members who never had been Jewish and thus never recognized Jewish holidays.

Second, there are Christian groups who follow Jewish traditions such as the Seventh Day Adventists who celebrate the Sabbath on Saturday and others who keep kosher.

Third, there are a ton of Christian holidays that are hardly observed by Christians, but which ones those are vary greatly by location. Pentecost (or the Monday after) is a public holiday in some countries and All Saints Day (a.k.a. Dia de los Muertos) is a much bigger deal in Mexico than anywhere else. Then there are feast days of the various saints, most of which are all but ignored except in certain locales. A notable exception is St. Patrick's day which still mostly a US-UK-Ireland affair.

Kiwirob wrote:
If it would give me more days off work I'd support any and all religious holiday's regardless of whatever fairytale they are in support of!

How very European of you.

But, in fairness, I wouldn't doubt that the overall rejection of icons and pageantry by Protestants (some more than others) and the Protestant work ethic contributed to the de-emphasis of all but a few holidays. In the Middle Ages, an awful lot of the calendar could be dedicated to various holidays and festivals.
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Kiwirob
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:40 am

BMI727 wrote:
A notable exception is St. Patrick's day which still mostly a US-UK-Ireland affair.


It's also celebrated in NZ and Australia, but it's not a day off work, it a night of drinking followed by a hangover the following day, and maybe a sick day.
 
Airstud
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Sat Apr 15, 2017 9:45 am

seb146 wrote:
Maybe someone could suggest a better title.

I have often wondered something:

The founder of the Christian religion, Jesus Christ, was Jewish. Why don't Christians put more emphasis on Jewish holidays? I realize that Christmas and Easter are holy days in the Christian calendar, but Passover and Hanukkah should be important too, shouldn't they?


Hanukkah isn't important in Judaism either.
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tommy1808
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Sat Apr 15, 2017 10:18 am

seb146 wrote:
The founder of the Christian religion, Jesus Christ, was Jewish.


It is actually unlikely that he even existed. If you read the Epistles of Paul without being brainwashed into Christianity first, it is very clear that he not just never heard of or refereed to any teachings, salmons, miracles, passion or anything else about a real Jesus, in fact he is very positive that anyone claiming there was a person called Jesus walking the earth, had a ministry and such, must be lying, since scripture and revelation are the only ways to know about Jesus. If you are looking for a founder of Christianity, you have to look at people with schizotypal personality disorder like him.

Why don't Christians put more emphasis on Jewish holidays?


Why not on the Pagan holidays they tried to undermine with picking there dates? The word Eastern even probably comes from the indo-germanic godess Ēostre, including customs of eggs and rabbit as a symbol.

I realize that Christmas and Easter are holy days in the Christian calendar, but Passover and Hanukkah should be important too, shouldn't they?


Why? Anyone observes whatever cult they like, as long as they don´t bother anyone with it. The word "important" shouldn´t even apply to religious nonsense in a secular nation, neither should those be public holiday. The only important thing about Religion is to get rid of it, it is a potentially lethal, infectious disease after all.

BMI727 wrote:
There were very real arguments in the early church (within decades of Jesus)


We know nothing about the first decades of the Christian Church before roughly 95 CE and the epistle of Clement, almost nothing before Origen Adamantius much, much later. And from the Church History we do have, we know that much of it is faked and distorted by people like Eusebius (we have 5 different surviving Church histories from him alone). Early Church fathers even complained a lot about rampant changes and forgery, and more important pointed out only sophisticated believers are able to understand the truth, and that the rest probably needed to be lied to.
When you local pastor calls you "child", that is not a term of endeerment, that is him calling you stupid, because in Church history child and simpleton are used synonymously.

Kiwirob wrote:
If it would give me more days off work I'd support any and all religious holiday's regardless of whatever fairytale they are in support of!

How very European of you..


Vacation, in the sense of prolonged time of work, is a human right. Just because the human rights record of USA is worse than Saudi Arabia´s in that regard, in fact no nation on this planet is worse and only Kiribati, Marshall Islands, Micronesia, Nauru, Palau & Tonga are equal human rights violators, doesn´t make it normal or good.

best regards
Thomas
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seb146
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:16 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
The founder of the Christian religion, Jesus Christ, was Jewish.


It is actually unlikely that he even existed. If you read the Epistles of Paul without being brainwashed into Christianity first, it is very clear that he not just never heard of or refereed to any teachings, salmons, miracles, passion or anything else about a real Jesus, in fact he is very positive that anyone claiming there was a person called Jesus walking the earth, had a ministry and such, must be lying, since scripture and revelation are the only ways to know about Jesus. If you are looking for a founder of Christianity, you have to look at people with schizotypal personality disorder like him.


There are also Roman records stating that Mary and Joseph lived and she was with child at the time of the census. Also, I don't care what religion you practice. As long as you get good at it. Just because one person practices it does not mean we all have to. Yes, I am one of those Christians.

There must be a rift in the time/space continuum. Has anyone see The Q? BMI, thank you for a very concise and to the point answer.
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tommy1808
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Sat Apr 15, 2017 5:46 pm

seb146 wrote:
There are also Roman records stating that Mary and Joseph lived and she was with child at the time of the census.


Since there is absolutely zero collaboration of anything in the gospels anywhere outside of the Bible afaik, i´d call bs on this one. But please, do show that evidence, there is no better way to sway an opinion.

The only one i know about is the census of Quirinius, which unfortunately didn´t happen until well after King Herod was worm food, so that can´t be the same. And doesn´t mention Joseph or Maria or a pregnancy.
And would you find it somewhat odd, and utterly implausible, that records of Maria, Joseph and the pregnancy survived, but eye witness reports about all the miracles, sermons and teaching of Jesus are completely missing? His clearing out of 35 acres of temple, protected by a whole brigade of roman Infanterie to prevent exactly that, and no one writes anything down? Hours of supernatural darkness over the whole planet when Jesus had died, and no one noticed? Dead Jewish saints coming back to life, roaming the streets of Jerusalem and nothing? His entry into Jerusalem, with the whole town cheering him on, welcoming the new king and not a peep? The veil or the temple ripped in half, no one mentioned that? Not even from those people that spend a lot of time writing about claimed Messiahs? We know about plenty of those, but not a word about the real deal?
Heck, the bible has been edited for almost 2000 years, there is no sigle manuscript for any bible in use, it is all patchwork or often contradicting and, at best, different manuscripts, and yet still gazillions of contradictions in it?

Can you really, honestly tell yourself that all the stuff about Jesus is more likely true that Mohammed riding into heaven on a winged horse, cutting the moon in half with his sword? Or Zeus? Or Romulus, the founder of Rome, we are told he was the son of god, born of a virgin; an attempt is made to kill him as a baby, and he is saved, and raised by a poor family, hailed as King, and killed by the conniving elite; that he rises from the dead, appears to a friend to tell the good news to his people, and ascends to heaven to rule from on high? Where did i hear that story before..... *

But it is a well documented fact that people have a really hard time seeing the errors and contradictions in their own religion, while being perfectly able of spotting the same in other peoples religion. In biology those are trademarks of parasitic infections.

Just because one person practices it does not mean we all have to. Yes, I am one of those Christians.


Yes, of course. Probably most Christians are, and i haven´t met many that don´t consider it possible to be wrong, including priests. But herpes can also lie dormant.

best regards
Thomas

*Yes, i know, there are differences.
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photopilot
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:36 pm

I quietly celebrate this most special of holiday weekends........ in contemplation of the sacrifices made in the name of good chocolate!!!!

:rotfl: :rotfl:

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salttee
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Sat Apr 15, 2017 7:55 pm

First off may I remind everyone that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are essentially the same religion. They all hinge on the "Old Testament" aka the Torah. Besides having their basis as the Torah, all three share the very significant trait of proclaiming themselves as having the only "God"; therefore, anybody who doesn't worship this god is less than human in their eyes. No other religion makes this claim.

The actual "religion" we are talking about here is "Abrahamic", and the three main branches of the Abrahamic religion are called Judaism, Christianity and Islam (while there are others.)

BMI727 wrote:
First, Christianity started as a Jewish sect but did not stay that way very long.

Christianity remained a Jewish sect for a hundred years, until the Bar Kokhba revolt in 131 CE, when many in the Levant sought separation from the Temple Cult (the Talmudic Jews also separated themselves from the Temple Cult at that time.) It is also well to remember that "Christianity" as a singular religion didn't exist until about 200 years later, when in the early fourth century, Constantine unified (or attempted to unify) all the various "churches" which had sprung up around the Mediterranean and which had little or no contact with each other and were quite diverse in beliefs and traditions.
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Airstud
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:06 am

[url][/url]
salttee wrote:
First off may I remind everyone that Judaism, Christianity and Islam are essentially the same religion. They all hinge on the "Old Testament" aka the Torah.


No you may not, because the term "Torah" refers only to the Five Books of Moses. In Christian bibles these are presented as the first five books of the Old Testament. The Hebrew Bible, or Tanakh, conists of Torah, Nevi'im, and Kethuvim.
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salttee
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:40 am

Airstud wrote:
No you may not, because the term "Torah" refers only to the Five Books of Moses. In Christian bibles these are presented as the first five books of the Old Testament. The Hebrew Bible, or Tanakh, conists of Torah, Nevi'im, and Kethuvim.


Yes the Torah, Nevi'im, and Kethuvim. Everything else remains the same however.

Thanks for adding to the conversation I guess.
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zrs70
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:02 am

A few points of reference:

1) Jews don't call our Tanach (Torah, Nevi'im, Kethuvim) the "Old Testament." It's the Bible. The order of the books are different in the Jewish Bible and the Christian.

2) In a nutshell, Christian theology teaches that Jesus came to complete the laws of the Jewish bible. His revelation replaced those laws. So observing Jewish rituals and festivals is in opposition to Christian theology.

3) So, if Christians don't follow laws of the Bible because Jesus replaced those laws, why don't Jews follow most of those laws (sacrifices, etc.)? Around the same time the Jesus lived, there was a big reformation in Judaism (codified in the conversations of the Talmud). Rabbinic Law became more central than Torah law.
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salttee
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:01 am

zrs70 wrote:
Jews don't call our Tanach (Torah, Nevi'im, Kethuvim) the "Old Testament." It's the Bible. The order of the books are different in the Jewish Bible and the Christian.
In a nutshell, Christian theology teaches that Jesus came to complete the laws of the Jewish bible. His revelation replaced those laws.

So observing Jewish rituals and festivals is in opposition to Christian theology.
So, if Christians don't follow laws of the Bible because Jesus replaced those laws, why don't Jews follow most of those laws (sacrifices, etc.)?

You're wandering into some hair splitting with all that.

As I see it, the salient points are that the Tanach became the Old Testament in Christianity and is found nearly intact in the Koran. It is the cornerstone upon which all three of the branches of the Abrahamic religions are based.

zrs70 wrote:
Around the same time the Jesus lived, there was a big reformation in Judaism (codified in the conversations of the Talmud). Rabbinic Law became more central than Torah law.

I believe the changes you are referring to began a few decades later when the hierarchy which had been founded (or re-created) by Judas Maccabee, which was by far the dominant sect among the Jewish sects at the time, came to blows with the Romans; as a result, their temple along with the rest of Jerusalem was leveled. This process re-ignited a few times later until in 134 when the Romans surrounded the Temple cult (who were at that time without a temple) and exterminated them.

All along during the period of the temple cult's rise and dominance there were other Jewish tribes or sects operating in abeyance of the Temple cult, even in Jerusalem, and Jerusalem wasn't even the largest gathering of Jews at the time; in the period we are discussing I am sure that you know that the Jewish population of Alexandria was larger than the population of Jews in the Levant. There was also a huge population of Jews in Cyprus at the time. The historical focus on the Temple cult is a bit distorted.

As you say, the Jews who were codifying the old teachings came to prominence as the Temple Cult were purged by the Romans.
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seb146
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Sun Apr 16, 2017 5:14 am

tommy1808 wrote:
seb146 wrote:
There are also Roman records stating that Mary and Joseph lived and she was with child at the time of the census.


Since there is absolutely zero collaboration of anything in the gospels anywhere outside of the Bible afaik, i´d call bs on this one. But please, do show that evidence, there is no better way to sway an opinion.

The only one i know about is the census of Quirinius, which unfortunately didn´t happen until well after King Herod was worm food, so that can´t be the same. And doesn´t mention Joseph or Maria or a pregnancy.
And would you find it somewhat odd, and utterly implausible, that records of Maria, Joseph and the pregnancy survived, but eye witness reports about all the miracles, sermons and teaching of Jesus are completely missing? His clearing out of 35 acres of temple, protected by a whole brigade of roman Infanterie to prevent exactly that, and no one writes anything down? Hours of supernatural darkness over the whole planet when Jesus had died, and no one noticed? Dead Jewish saints coming back to life, roaming the streets of Jerusalem and nothing? His entry into Jerusalem, with the whole town cheering him on, welcoming the new king and not a peep? The veil or the temple ripped in half, no one mentioned that? Not even from those people that spend a lot of time writing about claimed Messiahs? We know about plenty of those, but not a word about the real deal?
Heck, the bible has been edited for almost 2000 years, there is no sigle manuscript for any bible in use, it is all patchwork or often contradicting and, at best, different manuscripts, and yet still gazillions of contradictions in it?

Can you really, honestly tell yourself that all the stuff about Jesus is more likely true that Mohammed riding into heaven on a winged horse, cutting the moon in half with his sword? Or Zeus? Or Romulus, the founder of Rome, we are told he was the son of god, born of a virgin; an attempt is made to kill him as a baby, and he is saved, and raised by a poor family, hailed as King, and killed by the conniving elite; that he rises from the dead, appears to a friend to tell the good news to his people, and ascends to heaven to rule from on high? Where did i hear that story before..... *

But it is a well documented fact that people have a really hard time seeing the errors and contradictions in their own religion, while being perfectly able of spotting the same in other peoples religion. In biology those are trademarks of parasitic infections.

Just because one person practices it does not mean we all have to. Yes, I am one of those Christians.


Yes, of course. Probably most Christians are, and i haven´t met many that don´t consider it possible to be wrong, including priests. But herpes can also lie dormant.

best regards
Thomas

*Yes, i know, there are differences.


This is probably the "liberal" in me, but I have my belief system in place and use it to guide my life. According to my belief system, it is not my place to tell others, force others, shame others, or judge others. So, if someone worships Poseidon or a tree or nothing at all, it is not my place to beat them over the head with my copy of The Bible until they love Jesus. I can not, by my faith, do that. All I can do, by my faith, is live my life as I believe He would have me live.

Because I believe in Christ and that Christ lived and that He was a Jew, I have this question, so I ask.
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salttee
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Sun Apr 16, 2017 3:40 pm

seb146 wrote:
Because I believe in Christ and that Christ lived and that He was a Jew, I have this question, so I ask.

To shed a little light towards answering your question you should understand that the Crusades were as much directed against Jews as they were against Muslims. The question you are asking reaches to the genesis of antisemitism. The church that brought you the "message of Jesus" has gone through some pretty "un-christian" times over the last 1,700 years, beginning with the era of Constantine.
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seb146
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:17 pm

salttee wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Because I believe in Christ and that Christ lived and that He was a Jew, I have this question, so I ask.

To shed a little light towards answering your question you should understand that the Crusades were as much directed against Jews as they were against Muslims. The question you are asking reaches to the genesis of antisemitism. The church that brought you the "message of Jesus" has gone through some pretty "un-christian" times over the last 1,700 years, beginning with the era of Constantine.


And the early authors of The Bible picked and chose what to put in. I know, historically, the three major religions were not peaceful. There are a lot of factors involved with the answer to the question I originally asked. Because the history of these religions stretches back thousands of years, it is almost impossible to give a short and neat answer. Considering the history, I think BMI's answer is good, but I am willing to hear more. It is interesting to me.
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salttee
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Sun Apr 16, 2017 6:51 pm

seb146 wrote:
I am willing to hear more. It is interesting to me.


If you find actual history interesting this is a good place to start.
https://www.amazon.com/Rome-Jerusalem-C ... 0375726136
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:22 am

Here in India, we have holidays for all major festivals of Hinduism, Islam, Sikhism, Chritisianity and Judaism.
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seahawk
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Mon Apr 17, 2017 8:33 am

I wonder why Chrisitans do not observe Islamic Holidays, as Mohamed did up-date Jesus teachings...
 
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:08 pm

seahawk wrote:
I wonder why Chrisitans do not observe Islamic Holidays, as Mohamed did up-date Jesus teachings...


It's because Christians do not see Mohammed as a prophet, much in the same was Muslims don't see Jesus as the son of God (though IIRC they do see him as a minor prophet).

Also Islam was not born out of Christianity. Early in time there was a split in the jewish church and one side of the split would evolve into modern Judaism and Christianity while the other side would evolve into Islam,
 
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:38 pm

Raventech wrote:
Early in time there was a split in the jewish church and one side of the split would evolve into modern Judaism and Christianity while the other side would evolve into Islam,

Huh?
There is not a shred of factual information in that sentence.

Christianity sprang from an opposing faction of the Temple Cult, which was but one sect among many of the Jewish religion of the day. Judaism does not have "churches."
Islam sprang up 600 years later, a thousand miles away from, and quite independent of Jewish influence; although whoever wrote the Koran obviously had a copy of the old testament in hand.
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Mon Apr 17, 2017 3:43 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Yes, of course. Probably most Christians are, and i haven´t met many that don´t consider it possible to be wrong, including priests. But herpes can also lie dormant.


Split people into three basic groups - religious people, agnostics, and atheists. Agnostics are open to the idea of religion but simply don't see the point without evidence. Atheists are those who are committed to the idea of "there is no God".

Talk to any religious person, and every one of them (except maybe a few fanatics) will admit to having periods of doubt, where their faith was truely questioned/tested. Agnostics doubt by definition. Only atheists seem to claim to be free of all doubt - there is no God and those who think differently are idiots.

Since doubt and questioning are the root of all science, I find it hilarious when atheists claim the scientific high ground where they seem to be the least open to doubts and questions. Same thing with issues like Global Warming - Many on the left cling to their "truth" with religious fanaticism in spite of scientific data that disputes it, and mock and denigrate those who have doubts and questions about it - They call the questioners anti-science - which is just Irony writ large..
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seahawk
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:22 pm

However the idea of god does not stand up to scientific methods. I think the flying Spaghetti monster shows this quite well. Especially as the religious side turns the basic scientific principle, that you need to find hard proof for your theory, around and demands proof of the non existence of god.
 
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Mon Apr 17, 2017 5:36 pm

seahawk wrote:
However the idea of god does not stand up to scientific methods. I think the flying Spaghetti monster shows this quite well. Especially as the religious side turns the basic scientific principle, that you need to find hard proof for your theory, around and demands proof of the non existence of god.


You are missing the point. Religious people have doubts. I know I sure did after the death of my son years ago. I still have doubts every once and a while to this day. It's not easy having faith. It involves taking a leap of faith - which is why it's called Faith and not Fact.

The only ones who seem to never question their assumptions are atheists (who we might consider hard-core agnostics). So who is more scientifically-minded? the religious person who admits to factual gaps and the requirement of faith, or those who think "since I cannot see it it must not exist"?

I suppose atheists must believe that they are all-knowing (if you admit that you don't know everything - ergo you might be wrong, that makes you agnostic, not atheist). If I am all knowing, I must be God. Wait, I already said God doesn't exist!. And Poof! the atheist vanishes in a puff of logic...

Sorry for the last bit, just having fun.
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seahawk
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Tue Apr 18, 2017 5:08 am

I think every atheist will be happy to accept that the existence of god is as likely as the existence of the flying spaghetti monster.
 
seb146
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:31 pm

seahawk wrote:
I think every atheist will be happy to accept that the existence of god is as likely as the existence of the flying spaghetti monster.


Prove it. There are planets and regions of space we have not seen and can not comprehend. Who is to say that one of those planets has a link to us and is inhabited by God or Flying Spaghetti Monster or Shiva? Yes, those of us who believe have doubt. Science keeps finding new planets that could sustain life and finding new elements. So, why is it not even worth discussing that there might be a higher power? We of faith are willing to accept, from time to time, there might not be a higher power. Why are atheists not willing to accept, from time to time, there might be a higher power? It does not have to be an particular deity, either.
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seahawk
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Tue Apr 18, 2017 4:39 pm

Proof what?

Atheism is not one unified viewpoint, as is theism. Atheists have different viewpoints and strongly positive Atheists (which categorically rule out the existence of a deity) are imho no better than theists who categorically disagree with the possibility that no deity could exist. However most Atheists and Agnostics will agree that the existence of one god, as defined by one religion, has to be rejected, be it even just because of the many kinds of religions the world has seen.
 
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:15 pm

seahawk wrote:
Proof what?

Atheism is not one unified viewpoint, as is theism. Atheists have different viewpoints and strongly positive Atheists (which categorically rule out the existence of a deity) are imho no better than theists who categorically disagree with the possibility that no deity could exist.


Yep.

I've never seen any evidence of there being a god. I call myself atheist because I don't believe in god, don't follow a religion, etc.

If it turns out that I'm wrong, hey, whatever. Can't be right about everything. I don't worry myself about it.

seb146 wrote:
Prove it.


The nonexistence of something is really never provable beyond all possibility. However, the existence of something is indeed provable. All I can say is I really don't think there is a god.

seb146 wrote:
So, why is it not even worth discussing that there might be a higher power?


Who said it isn't? I love discussing religion and spirituality and such.

Dreadnought's categorization of atheists is just as applicable as any derogatory categorization of theists. Some people are like that. The majority quite likely aren't.
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salttee
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Tue Apr 18, 2017 10:35 pm

Atheism is a religion to the same degree that not collecting stamps is a hobby.
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JJJ
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:43 am

seb146 wrote:
Why are atheists not willing to accept, from time to time, there might be a higher power? It does not have to be an particular deity, either.


Well sure but the question is why? Does it make any difference whether someone or something created the universe or is taking note of your sins for your daily life?

Being an atheist is all about putting the focus on the individual and society. You do not need any supreme being telling you to be good because you know being good is a good thing in itself, and societies where people behave for the most part are much better places to live.

If God wants me to believe in him he's welcome to manifest as a burning bush, a pillar of fire or a talking cow. Until then I have better things to do in my philosophical why-are-we-here moments.
 
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Wed Apr 19, 2017 5:17 am

vikkyvik wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Proof what?

Atheism is not one unified viewpoint, as is theism. Atheists have different viewpoints and strongly positive Atheists (which categorically rule out the existence of a deity) are imho no better than theists who categorically disagree with the possibility that no deity could exist.


Yep.

I've never seen any evidence of there being a god. I call myself atheist because I don't believe in god, don't follow a religion, etc.

If it turns out that I'm wrong, hey, whatever. Can't be right about everything. I don't worry myself about it.


I would rather err on the side of caution. As long as it works for you.

What I am getting tired of are the people who scream that there is no god and what I am doing is pointless and stop it because they say so. No. I will not just because you say so. Why don't you try being religious because I say so? I am trying to live my life and be the good person I think my god wants me to be. You are trying to live your life. So what if it gives me comfort to think there is something more after I pass from this plane?

I am not saying "you" pointedly at vikkyvik or seahawk. I am saying "you" just in general.

vikkyvik wrote:
seb146 wrote:
Prove it.


The nonexistence of something is really never provable beyond all possibility. However, the existence of something is indeed provable. All I can say is I really don't think there is a god.


But that possibility exists. However remote. There may not be a god, but it gives me comfort to think there is a power greater than us out there.
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seahawk
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Wed Apr 19, 2017 6:57 am

Nobody has a problem with a religious person who does not try to enforce their way of life on the others, unfortunately many do try to force their way of life on others.
 
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Wed Apr 19, 2017 10:42 am

Dreadnought wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Yes, of course. Probably most Christians are, and i haven´t met many that don´t consider it possible to be wrong, including priests. But herpes can also lie dormant.


Split people into three basic groups - religious people, agnostics, and atheists. Agnostics are open to the idea of religion but simply don't see the point without evidence. Atheists are those who are committed to the idea of "there is no God".


That is a common misconception. An agnostic is agnostic about the existence of god, they don't have any preference whatsoever. God could exist, or not, either way it doesn't matter. We can not know one way or the other anyway, either because we just dont, or because we can't know.
An atheist thinks it more likely that a God does not exists than its existance, and lives a life under the assumption that there is no such thing. You will find very few atheists that flat out deny the possibility of a God existing, most find it just highly unlikely.

seb146 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
I think every atheist will be happy to accept that the existence of god is as likely as the existence of the flying spaghetti monster.

Why are atheists not willing to accept, from time to time, there might be a higher power? It does not have to be an particular deity, either.


They usually do.
Theists are having a problem with that. See up threat the non-existance of Jesus. There is no problem to use Bayes reasoning and demonstrate that the existance of an historical Jesus is extremely improbable, yet you yourself don't adress any of the points raised by me, and fall back on the default "but I believe". And you any reasonable and open minded, modern Christian with a sophisticated believe that is usually compatible with science....

I've had so many believers trying to safe my soul, and they can drone on for a really long time, not shaken the slightest bit by what I don't believe and quickly ending the discussionwhen I start going science on them. Even if it is just bible scholarship, that is done by believers pretty much exclusively. They always fall back on "faith", "you have to believe" in the best case, and that one is in league with Satan in the worst. And you should see the look when you tell them that Satan in the whole bible only killed few people, but God killed millions..... so, from a moral point of view....

I just recently discussed with two Moslems, that tried to pull the science card on me, pointing out how the Koran gets procreation right and that Mohammed could only have known that by revelation. One got thoughtfull, the other angry, when I pointed out that the Koran only has the knowledge Greek and Roman medicine had uncovered 100s of years before....
The thoughfull one later wrote me "my believe is like a table, and you roundhouse kicked one leg away".

Well, one leg to go...

seb146 wrote:
But that possibility exists. However remote. There may not be a god, but it gives me comfort to think there is a power greater than us out there.


We could also all die within 30 minutes of this post because a gamma ray burst hits earth, by a accidental nuclear exchange or a vacuum state change. Those both will certainly have much higher probbilities. Unless you react to those threats in proportion to the probability, your rationalisation of believe falls flat.

Best regards
Thomas
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flipdewaf
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Wed Apr 19, 2017 12:47 pm

Scenario 1. God is omnipotent and omniscient. He/she/it/they can control the world but still lets people die in natural disasters and by horrible painful diseases. My conclusion to this: He/she/it/they are dick head(s) and not really that nice and the place that he/she/it/they describe as heaven might be a fucking torture ground so I'm not really bothered about spending eternity there.

Scenario 2. God is not omnipotent but is omniscient. He/she/it/they listen to prayers and only let you in to heaven if you do as they say. Conclusion: God is a narcissist of the highest order. If you believe that he is checking what you do so as to determine if you are let in to heaven then you are morally bankrupt as that suggests that you are only behaving in a moral (as god told you) manner for selfish ends.

Scenario 3. God is omnipotent but not omniscient then he/she/it/they behave like a child with a pinata, fun but not the type of person(s) is worthy of any credit.

Scenario 4. God is neither omnipotent or omniscient. Religion is talking to a person who isn't listening and can't do anything...........

Scenario 5. God doesn't exist.

As there is no evidence for god existing I'd side with scenario 5 but if god does exist he/she/it/they are not the persons I'd want to be friends or ingratiate myself with anyway.

Religious holidays: even though religion is made up and takes advantage of a useful artifact of the human brain derived from evolution I don't think the dates need to change, they form a useful function the same as they did for the pagans before organised religion decided they'd have them.

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Kiwirob
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Wed Apr 19, 2017 9:05 pm

seb146 wrote:
But that possibility exists. However remote. There may not be a god, but it gives me comfort to think there is a power greater than us out there.


Firstly I don't believe in god, but from what I understand if a god did exist and there is an afterlife aren't you going down not up? Gay and religious are strange bedfellows, like a square peg in a round hole it doesn't fit, computer says no!
 
seb146
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:39 am

I asked for a history lesson on what I believe. I did not ask to be preached to about how wrong I am for believing what I believe. My question was answered long ago. If you have a problem with my belief system, that is on you. That is not what this thread is about. I am secure in my belief. I did not start any of the attacks on anyone's belief system. Because you are not secure in yours and feel everyone should believe as you do, go start a web site.

Also, here is a complete and concise list of things Jesus said about homosexuality and homosexuals:

1)
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salttee
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:37 am

seb146 wrote:
Also, here is a complete and concise list of things Jesus said about homosexuality and homosexuals:

The catch in that is that nobody can know what Jesus ever said because there were no recording devices back then and Jesus didn't write anything down. So all we have to go on is what people who never even met him have written about him. And all that second hand stuff was edited and re-edited for 280 or more years until Constantine held the meeting at Nicaea where they decided to keep everything that sounded good and to dump everything they didn't quite understand or that which didn't dovetail with what they were keeping.

But we can be pretty sure that Jesus didn't go around talking about how we should all worship a dead man or anything like that. He was a reactionary rebelling against the going ons of the Temple Cult, who were a pretty weird bunch by all accounts. They made their living by conducting ceremonial sacrifices of mostly farm animals: goats and such. Like modern priests, they did mostly weddings, funerals and coming of age ceremonies for the boys. The Temple had hundreds of chambers for the hundreds of priests and had sacrificial tables for the animals and gutters in the floors to route the flow of blood. I can't imagine that it smelled all that great on the inside. Jesus apparently thought it was all a big scam, a way to separate the fools from their money.

If you give it some thought you can see that the virgin birth and the resurrection and all that was an enhancement to the story that was tacked on later to make the story sound more interesting to the hicks out in the countryside that the purveyors of the new religion were selling their story to.
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Thu Apr 20, 2017 6:43 am

Having religion is like having a penis: It's good to have one, it's ok to be proud of it, but don't go waving it around in public.

In other words, I don't have single care what people chose to believe in or, as the case may be, chose not to believe in. As long as they keep it private. But I would like to point out the supreme arrogance people of faith exhibit, when they proclaim their chosen deity is the only true one. There are roughly 5.000 deities to chose from on this earth, which one you profess to hold dear is merely a function of where you were born and to which family / community.

Back to the topic at hand, every single one of the religious holidays we enjoy have been lifted off various pagan festive days. That was a fine method of quelling the opposition, by claiming their 'holy' days.
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:17 am

B777LRF wrote:
Having religion is like having a penis: It's good to have one, it's ok to be proud of it, but don't go waving it around in public.
And certainly don't put it anywhere near a child!
In my opinion christenings and the equivalent ceremonies of other religions are legalised child abuse.

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Kiwirob
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Thu Apr 20, 2017 10:18 am

seb146 wrote:
I asked for a history lesson on what I believe. I did not ask to be preached to about how wrong I am for believing what I believe. My question was answered long ago. If you have a problem with my belief system, that is on you. That is not what this thread is about. I am secure in my belief. I did not start any of the attacks on anyone's belief system. Because you are not secure in yours and feel everyone should believe as you do, go start a web site.

Also, here is a complete and concise list of things Jesus said about homosexuality and homosexuals:

1)


If you're going to believe in God you can't just pick the bits you want to believe in and gaywash the rest.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/topical- ... sexuality/

In the new testament we have

Romans 1:26-27
Saint Paul writes

“ For this reason [idolatry] God gave them up to passions of dishonor; for even their females exchanged the natural use for that which is contrary to nature, and likewise also the males, having left the natural use of the female, were inflamed by their lust for one another, males with males, committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was fitting for their error.

Corinthians 6:9-10

"Whether ye know not, that wicked men shall not wield the kingdom of God? Do not ye err; neither lechers, neither men that serve maumets [neither men serving to idols], neither adulterers, neither lechers against kind, neither they that do lechery with men"

Timothy 1:9-10

"..and witting this thing, that the law is not set to a just man, but to unjust men and not subject, to wicked men and to sinners, to cursed men and defouled, to slayers of father, and slayers of mother, to manslayers [witting this thing, that the law is not put to a just man, but to an unjust and not subject, to unpious men and sinners, to cursed men and defouled, to slayers of fathers, and slayers of mothers, to menslayers] and lechers, to them that do lechery with men, lying-mongers and forsworn, and if any other thing is contrary to the wholesome teaching."

and Jesus did mention marriage, which would appear that it his words were accuratlly penned down didn't think much of same sex marriage which could be interperated as unfriendly to gay people.

In Matthew 19:3, Jesus is asked “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any cause?” This provides clear context for his answer, which is as follows:

“ He answered, ‘Have you not read that the one who made them at the beginning “made them male and female” [Genesis 1:27], and said, “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh” [Genesis 2:24]? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.’
 
seb146
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:18 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
seb146 wrote:
I asked for a history lesson on what I believe. I did not ask to be preached to about how wrong I am for believing what I believe. My question was answered long ago. If you have a problem with my belief system, that is on you. That is not what this thread is about. I am secure in my belief. I did not start any of the attacks on anyone's belief system. Because you are not secure in yours and feel everyone should believe as you do, go start a web site.

Also, here is a complete and concise list of things Jesus said about homosexuality and homosexuals:

1)


If you're going to believe in God you can't just pick the bits you want to believe in and gaywash the rest.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/topical- ... sexuality/

In the new testament we have

Romans 1:26-27
Saint Paul writes

“ For this reason [idolatry] God gave them up to passions of dishonor; for even their females exchanged the natural use for that which is contrary to nature, and likewise also the males, having left the natural use of the female, were inflamed by their lust for one another, males with males, committing what is shameful, and receiving in themselves the recompense which was fitting for their error.

Corinthians 6:9-10

"Whether ye know not, that wicked men shall not wield the kingdom of God? Do not ye err; neither lechers, neither men that serve maumets [neither men serving to idols], neither adulterers, neither lechers against kind, neither they that do lechery with men"

Timothy 1:9-10

"..and witting this thing, that the law is not set to a just man, but to unjust men and not subject, to wicked men and to sinners, to cursed men and defouled, to slayers of father, and slayers of mother, to manslayers [witting this thing, that the law is not put to a just man, but to an unjust and not subject, to unpious men and sinners, to cursed men and defouled, to slayers of fathers, and slayers of mothers, to menslayers] and lechers, to them that do lechery with men, lying-mongers and forsworn, and if any other thing is contrary to the wholesome teaching."

and Jesus did mention marriage, which would appear that it his words were accuratlly penned down didn't think much of same sex marriage which could be interperated as unfriendly to gay people.

In Matthew 19:3, Jesus is asked “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any cause?” This provides clear context for his answer, which is as follows:

“ He answered, ‘Have you not read that the one who made them at the beginning “made them male and female” [Genesis 1:27], and said, “For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh” [Genesis 2:24]? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.’


That was Paul. He is not a saint to me because I do not believe in such things as saints. I believe in Christ (hence the word Christian) who told us what the greatest Commandment is. Christ said nothing about homosexuals.
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vikkyvik
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Thu Apr 20, 2017 2:35 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
If you're going to believe in God you can't just pick the bits you want to believe in


Why not? Belief in god doesn't necessitate belief in all tenets of a major religion.
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MaverickM11
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:06 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
If you're going to believe in God you can't just pick the bits you want to believe in

That is literally all christians do.

B777LRF wrote:
Having religion is like having a penis: It's good to have one, it's ok to be proud of it, but don't go waving it around in public.

In other words, I don't have single care what people chose to believe in or, as the case may be, chose not to believe in. As long as they keep it private. But I would like to point out the supreme arrogance people of faith exhibit, when they proclaim their chosen deity is the only true one. There are roughly 5.000 deities to chose from on this earth, which one you profess to hold dear is merely a function of where you were born and to which family / community.

Back to the topic at hand, every single one of the religious holidays we enjoy have been lifted off various pagan festive days. That was a fine method of quelling the opposition, by claiming their 'holy' days.

:checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: :checkmark: I've always thought different religions sharing holidays, or different denominations of the same religion having entirely different holidays undermined the whole "one true religion" thing...but whatever makes people happy as long as it's not forced on anyone else.
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Dreadnought
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:58 pm

MaverickM11 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
If you're going to believe in God you can't just pick the bits you want to believe in

That is literally all christians do.



You say that as if it were a bad thing.

This is my understanding of the Bible, as was taught to me years ago by the Jesuits who taught me. There is no rationale to treat the Bible in a fundamentalist way. The Bible was not written by God. It is a collection of books written by men (and at least one woman), describing their experiences and teachings. While inspired by God, it is still the work of man, and as such, it is subject to imperfections, errors of fact, omission, and translation. Some things are covered several times - You have four gospels covering the life of Christ. That's like reading four different biographies of (pick your favorite famous person) - one will concentrate of some aspects of the subject more than the others, different perspectives will exist based on the witnesses' accounts. What is important is to read all the different accounts, and by blending all together and some reading between the lines (an act of Faith), you get some sort of understanding of Christian philosophy and belief, and you make up your own mind.

seb146 wrote:
That was Paul. He is not a saint to me because I do not believe in such things as saints. I believe in Christ (hence the word Christian) who told us what the greatest Commandment is. Christ said nothing about homosexuals.


Saints are simply heroes. People who have lived a life recognized in some way as being worthy of emulation and who can provide inspiration.

As for your position on Christ and homosexuality, Here is my opinion. There is enough in the bible on the subject to suspect that God does not approve of homosexuality. Proof? No. And your point about the Greatest Commandment is well taken - there's the question of balance. I don't believe that God would condemn a man who never hurt anyone and went out of his way to live a good and generous life, but was gay. I can't see it as a deadly sin. A minor transgression, at most.

Think of it as a point system at the Pearly Gates. Charity to the needy, +10 points. Murder, -50 points. risking your life for others, +30. Being gay, -1.

Just my opinion after over half a century of Catholicism...
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Kiwirob
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:09 pm

seb146 wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
seb146 wrote:
That was Paul. He is not a saint to me because I do not believe in such things as saints. I believe in Christ (hence the word Christian) who told us what the greatest Commandment is. Christ said nothing about homosexuals.


So you're ignoring one of the most important people in the history of the Christian church! That makes you a hypocrite, you either believe in everything or you don't otherwise what is the point? And as I pointed out Jesus believed in marriage as men and woman and preached on it, which pretty much leads to the conclusion that man sleeping with man wouldn't have floated his boat, just like it hasn't been popular with most other people in th Bible.

You are a prime example of what is wrong with religion today, if you don't follow the belief system and rules laid out by the people who made up the stories you believe in then why bother, it's pretty clear that the people who made up god didn't make him up for people like you. You'd be better off becoming a pastafarian, they have no rules and regulations outlawing gays, they appear to be quite inclusive, they allow gay marriage and clergy.

A few years back my unmarried brother in law had his bastard daughter baptised by a gay female priest, which is a whole bunch of wrong according to the people who wrote book.
 
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Thu Apr 20, 2017 4:15 pm

seb146 wrote:
I asked for a history lesson on what I believe.
1)


If it was made up it is just as much a history lesson as why different holidays fall on the same day.
On top of that, you wouldn't allow that kind of reasoning in any other topic, where you'd rightfully insist to have a fact based discussion.
And of course, made up religions are very likely to be driven by convinience. Date conviniently is the same than a competing religion? Perfect reason to put it there. Just as it is unlikely that a savior God conviniently is named "savior" by his parents.

Best regards
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BobPatterson
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:09 pm

Dreadnought wrote:
The Bible was not written by God. It is a collection of books written by men (and at least one woman), describing their experiences and teachings. While inspired by God, it is still the work of man, ........

There is enough in the bible on the subject to suspect that God does not approve of homosexuality.


Your two statements are contradictory. How can you "suspect" what God approves or disapproves of based on the writings of men and women? The words of such men and women can only inform you as to what THEY think, not what God (if there is one) thinks.

It seems to me that you are basing your claims/faith on an infinitesimally small sampling of the world's faith writings (scriptures) and traditions, despite the fact that they (those writings) are often the products of dreams, visions and hallucinations (Paul and John are prime examples of this, Muhammad is another, ditto numerous Hebrew prophets).
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:15 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
A few years back my unmarried brother in law had his bastard daughter baptised by a gay female priest, which is a whole bunch of wrong according to the people who wrote book.


You manage to pack a whole lot of tension into a single sentence.

Is the daughter of your unmarried brother-in-law also the daughter of your unmarried sister? Just seeking clarity.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
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Dreadnought
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Re: Different Religions, Same Holiday

Thu Apr 20, 2017 5:48 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
Your two statements are contradictory. How can you "suspect" what God approves or disapproves of based on the writings of men and women? The words of such men and women can only inform you as to what THEY think, not what God (if there is one) thinks.


Faith in the idea that what they wrote was inspired. If you don't believe that, fine. Do us all a favor and don't try to mock those who do.
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