FTMCPIUS
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How many Senate votes

Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:09 am

were required to place Sam Alito and Clarence Thomas on the Supreme Court? Less than 60. And the Democrats didn’t like that so they schemed and adopted the “judicial filibuster” and it suited them just fine until the Right realized it too can change the rules when it's in charge.

I've been watching CSPAN, MSNBC and CNN much of the day and, to listen to the endless moaning and accusations from Dem politicians and left-leaning talking heads, one would think the Republicans have done away with a long-standing Senate tradition.

LONG-STANDING as in since 2013.

You didn't see this type of acrimony when liberal judges were nominated in the past. I suppose times have changed. Perhaps it's Trump, California or both.
 
Airstud
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Re: How many Senate votes

Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:56 am

FTMCPIUS wrote:
You didn't see this type of acrimony when liberal judges were nominated in the past.


Or, in the case of Elena Kagan... non-judges.
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Airstud
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Re: How many Senate votes

Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:45 am

Clarence Thomas was confirmed 52-48
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WarRI1
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Re: How many Senate votes

Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:13 am

We will just have to deal with the new reality, what goes around comes around as they say. The US will survive this as we always do. We want to live in an Oligarchy and a semi police state, keep voting Republican.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
FTMCPIUS
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Re: How many Senate votes

Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:08 am

WarRI1 wrote:
We will just have to deal with the new reality, what goes around comes around as they say. The US will survive this as we always do. We want to live in an Oligarchy and a semi police state, keep voting Republican.


Progressives claim to be intelligent and, in most respects, they are. But they refuse to accept certain lessons that history can teach. They won't stop their quest until they self-destruct.
 
Airstud
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Re: How many Senate votes

Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:11 am

FTMCPIUS wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
We will just have to deal with the new reality, what goes around comes around as they say. The US will survive this as we always do. We want to live in an Oligarchy and a semi police state, keep voting Republican.


Progressives claim to be intelligent and, in most respects, they are. But they refuse to accept certain lessons that history can teach. They won't stop their quest until they self-destruct.


I think that applies to strict partisans, on either side; not just "progressives."
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seb146
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Re: How many Senate votes

Fri Apr 07, 2017 3:39 am

It was patriotic and just for Republicans to filibuster and block nominees of Democrats but Republicans have to change the rules and move the goal posts because it is simply not patriotic or just to filibuster and block nominees of Republicans.
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FTMCPIUS
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Re: How many Senate votes

Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:10 am

Airstud wrote:
FTMCPIUS wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
We will just have to deal with the new reality, what goes around comes around as they say. The US will survive this as we always do. We want to live in an Oligarchy and a semi police state, keep voting Republican.


Progressives claim to be intelligent and, in most respects, they are. But they refuse to accept certain lessons that history can teach. They won't stop their quest until they self-destruct.


I think that applies to strict partisans, on either side; not just "progressives."


Conservatives are, by 'design,' not very "progressive." They pretty much like things that way they are (or were, anyway).
 
tommy1808
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Re: How many Senate votes

Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:21 am

FTMCPIUS wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
We will just have to deal with the new reality, what goes around comes around as they say. The US will survive this as we always do. We want to live in an Oligarchy and a semi police state, keep voting Republican.


Progressives claim to be intelligent and, in most respects, they are. But they refuse to accept certain lessons that history can teach..


That is funny, considering that the progressive side is constantly winning as far back as written history goes.

Many progressive liberals 100 - 200 years ago would have been too right for the today´s GOP.

If there is a lesson in history, it is that the progressive side can only be slowed down, but not stopped.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
FTMCPIUS
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Re: How many Senate votes

Fri Apr 07, 2017 4:37 pm

If there is a lesson in history, it is that the progressive side can only be slowed down, but not stopped.

Yes, like ageing it will inevitably kill us.
 
330west
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Re: How many Senate votes

Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:02 pm

FTMCPIUS wrote:
Yes, like ageing it will inevitably kill us.


Splendid. The faster the so-called conservatives die off, the better.
 
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BobPatterson
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Re: How many Senate votes

Fri Apr 07, 2017 5:09 pm

FTMCPIUS wrote:
Progressives claim to be intelligent and, in most respects, they are. But they refuse to accept certain lessons that history can teach. They won't stop their quest until they self-destruct.


Please be good enough to give this progressive conservative two examples of "certain lessons that history can teach" that I might have refused to accept.

Thank you. I love to learn new things about myself.

Plus, I certainly do not with to self-destruct. Well, I might want to self-administer a powerful pain killer as I lay dying.
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StarAC17
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Re: How many Senate votes

Fri Apr 07, 2017 6:00 pm

FTMCPIUS wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
We will just have to deal with the new reality, what goes around comes around as they say. The US will survive this as we always do. We want to live in an Oligarchy and a semi police state, keep voting Republican.


Progressives claim to be intelligent and, in most respects, they are. But they refuse to accept certain lessons that history can teach. They won't stop their quest until they self-destruct.


If you are equating democrats with progressives then stop right there. The democrats haven't been a progressive party at its core since Jimmy Carter. The reason that many on the right think that the democrats are left wing extremists is that the GOP has moved so far to the right that the current crop of centrist democrats looks very left.

I could make the argument that if the true progressives ran the democratic party and had nominated Bernie then none of this would even be happening as the senate would have probably flipped and Trump would have lost quite handily in the states he barely carried to win the election.

The problem is that democrats are spineless centrists whom are afraid of being assertive in standing by a position and the result is the GOP wins when being assertive on bonehead issues.

If you actually look at the polling on the issues the progressive ones win out basically every time and the popularity of Bernie and others like him are surging.
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BobPatterson
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Re: How many Senate votes

Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:04 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
If you are equating democrats with progressives then stop right there. The democrats haven't been a progressive party at its core since Jimmy Carter. The reason that many on the right think that the democrats are left wing extremists is that the GOP has moved so far to the right that the current crop of centrist democrats looks very left.

I could make the argument that if the true progressives ran the democratic party and had nominated Bernie then none of this would even be happening as the senate would have probably flipped and Trump would have lost quite handily in the states he barely carried to win the election.

The problem is that democrats are spineless centrists whom are afraid of being assertive in standing by a position and the result is the GOP wins when being assertive on bonehead issues.

If you actually look at the polling on the issues the progressive ones win out basically every time and the popularity of Bernie and others like him are surging.


Language, especially American English, is a delicious thing, much to be savored. With it, you can manage to dance on pinheads, turn logic on its head, and do other marvelous things.

Bernie Sanders is no progressive or democrat in the American tradition. He is a gasbag of a socialist who would take the country down in flames with him.

He is also just too damned old, almost as old as me, to be in public office. He ought to retire to some small utopian village in Vermont and watch the grass grow. The village elders should let him serve on a committee of some sort and prepare proposition to be voted on.

We have a more comical farce in high office now. No need for Bernie any more.

Aaaah....it feels good to finally get this off my chest. Thank you.
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FTMCPIUS
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Re: How many Senate votes

Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:00 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
FTMCPIUS wrote:
Progressives claim to be intelligent and, in most respects, they are. But they refuse to accept certain lessons that history can teach. They won't stop their quest until they self-destruct.


Please be good enough to give this progressive conservative two examples of "certain lessons that history can teach" that I might have refused to accept.

Thank you. I love to learn new things about myself.

Plus, I certainly do not with to self-destruct. Well, I might want to self-administer a powerful pain killer as I lay dying.


Unfortunately, many wish to have an impact on history without understanding that life itself is a lesson in history.
 
StarAC17
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Re: How many Senate votes

Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:16 pm

seb146 wrote:
It was patriotic and just for Republicans to filibuster and block nominees of Democrats but Republicans have to change the rules and move the goal posts because it is simply not patriotic or just to filibuster and block nominees of Republicans.


This will bite them in the ass though.

The democrats always knew this was going to happen at some point and had they retained the senate in 2014 then they probably would have done it as well with Merrick Garland.

Next time the democrats run everything, they will use 51 votes to do everything and the GOP can say squat. Furthermore I think the election of Trump has finally given the democrats a spine.
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BobPatterson
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Re: How many Senate votes

Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:21 pm

FTMCPIUS wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:
FTMCPIUS wrote:
Progressives claim to be intelligent and, in most respects, they are. But they refuse to accept certain lessons that history can teach. They won't stop their quest until they self-destruct.


Please be good enough to give this progressive conservative two examples of "certain lessons that history can teach" that I might have refused to accept.

Thank you. I love to learn new things about myself.

Plus, I certainly do not with to self-destruct. Well, I might want to self-administer a powerful pain killer as I lay dying.


Unfortunately, many wish to have an impact on history without understanding that life itself is a lesson in history.


Just as I thought. No examples.

Life is not a lesson in history. History can teach us much about life.

I suspect you may have trouble understanding the distinctions.
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FTMCPIUS
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Re: How many Senate votes

Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:47 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
FTMCPIUS wrote:
BobPatterson wrote:

Please be good enough to give this progressive conservative two examples of "certain lessons that history can teach" that I might have refused to accept.

Thank you. I love to learn new things about myself.

Plus, I certainly do not with to self-destruct. Well, I might want to self-administer a powerful pain killer as I lay dying.


Unfortunately, many wish to have an impact on history without understanding that life itself is a lesson in history.


Just as I thought. No examples.

Life is not a lesson in history. History can teach us much about life.

I suspect you may have trouble understanding the distinctions.

I apologize. Obviously, my response was not thought out very well. Yours was. I do indeed understand the distinction. I’ll simply leave it up to Churchill and the many others who said it much better than I ever could. Insofar as examples are concerned, who knows you better than yourself? I have tried and I’ll never understand the liberal mindset.
 
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Re: How many Senate votes

Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:51 am

McConnell did the right thing. The DNC has taken their loss much worse than the GOP did in 2008 and nothing will ever get done with the Zealotry we are getting from Schumer, Murray, Pelosi et al. Sotomayor got treated much better than Gorsuch did and she is a total activist.
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seb146
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Re: How many Senate votes

Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:10 am

NIKV69 wrote:
McConnell did the right thing. The DNC has taken their loss much worse than the GOP did in 2008 and nothing will ever get done with the Zealotry we are getting from Schumer, Murray, Pelosi et al. Sotomayor got treated much better than Gorsuch did and she is a total activist.


Well, no. When Republicans lost, it was McConnell who vowed to "...make Obama a one term president" and when that didn't work, he and all other right wing Republicans denied any action from any branch of government. Even so far as denying Obama his right to seat a Supreme Court justice.

As far as Sotomayor being an "activist" she actually recused herself on cases she had a conflict of interest in. Unlike Justice Thomas. And, yes, Gorsich is a total and complete activist for the right. He has legislated from the bench on behalf of the right many times.
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seb146
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Re: How many Senate votes

Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:14 am

StarAC17 wrote:
FTMCPIUS wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
We will just have to deal with the new reality, what goes around comes around as they say. The US will survive this as we always do. We want to live in an Oligarchy and a semi police state, keep voting Republican.


Progressives claim to be intelligent and, in most respects, they are. But they refuse to accept certain lessons that history can teach. They won't stop their quest until they self-destruct.


If you are equating democrats with progressives then stop right there. The democrats haven't been a progressive party at its core since Jimmy Carter. The reason that many on the right think that the democrats are left wing extremists is that the GOP has moved so far to the right that the current crop of centrist democrats looks very left.

I could make the argument that if the true progressives ran the democratic party and had nominated Bernie then none of this would even be happening as the senate would have probably flipped and Trump would have lost quite handily in the states he barely carried to win the election.

The problem is that democrats are spineless centrists whom are afraid of being assertive in standing by a position and the result is the GOP wins when being assertive on bonehead issues.

If you actually look at the polling on the issues the progressive ones win out basically every time and the popularity of Bernie and others like him are surging.


Both parties have opposite but similar problems. Republicans keep whittling down their "dream team" of followers by name calling and taunting their own. Democrats will let anyone have a say in what goes on so everything grinds to a halt because they try to be everything to everyone. It is not being spineless, it is trying to be everyone's favorite. Eggs need to get broken to make cake.
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BobPatterson
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Re: How many Senate votes

Sat Apr 08, 2017 8:55 am

seb146 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
McConnell did the right thing.


Well, no. When Republicans lost, it was McConnell who vowed to "...make Obama a one term president" and when that didn't work, he and all other right wing Republicans denied any action from any branch of government. Even so far as denying Obama his right to seat a Supreme Court justice.


The last time Senator McConnell did the right thing was when he married Elaine Chao.

If we had a thread for "Worst U.S. Senator in Modern History" High-five McConnell would get my vote for # 2 right behind tail-gunner Joe McCarthy.

Neither of them has/had an ounce of moral fiber.
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: How many Senate votes

Mon Apr 10, 2017 2:34 pm

Neil Gorsuch to be sworn in at the White House this morning at 10am CDT.

WINNING ! ! :hyper:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rf7kbnyrTQQ
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einsteinboricua
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Re: How many Senate votes

Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:33 pm

StarAC17 wrote:
The problem is that democrats are spineless centrists whom are afraid of being assertive in standing by a position and the result is the GOP wins when being assertive on bonehead issues.

At a time when the country bemoans how polarized politics has become, the last thing you need is for both camps to go to extremes. Centrists are the dealmakers here: centrists sunk the AHCA, centrists will sink tax reform, and centrists will surely be able to hold sway in the dysfunction of Congress.

NIKV69 wrote:
McConnell did the right thing.
Of course he did. You got your wish. The SCOTUS remains at 5-4. Had it been Majority Leader Schumer confirming Justice Obama, you'd be howling at the moon clamoring for impeachment of Clinton and how the Senate lost its decorum. But what goes around comes around, and the GOP cannot expect to remain the majority forever. Wait until Democrats obtain 51 votes and enact the McConnell rule of not confirming a justice for a president of the opposing party in the second half of the term, and plow through nominees with only 51 votes and the filibuster is all but dead.
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DfwRevolution
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Re: How many Senate votes

Mon Apr 10, 2017 3:51 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
Wait until Democrats obtain 51 votes and enact the McConnell rule of not confirming a justice for a president of the opposing party in the second half of the term, and plow through nominees with only 51 votes and the filibuster is all but dead.


Spare me. That's exactly what Democrats would have done anyway.
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einsteinboricua
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Re: How many Senate votes

Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:05 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
Spare me. That's exactly what Democrats would have done anyway.

Is it? It's one thing to use the filibuster for everything; it's another because you have "sincerely held" objections.

Sure, Democrats would have done it. But Republicans can't complain about being served with the same actions they set precedent on.

What's worse is the hypocrisy of it all. McCain for example said that the day the filibuster dies will be remembered as a dark day in Senate history, but he had no qualms to change Senate rules. He had no qualms to join filibusters for the sake of filibustering when they were in the minority. So how can I take the GOP at face value?
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DfwRevolution
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Re: How many Senate votes

Mon Apr 10, 2017 4:35 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
Spare me. That's exactly what Democrats would have done anyway.

Is it? It's one thing to use the filibuster for everything; it's another because you have "sincerely held" objections.

Sure, Democrats would have done it. But Republicans can't complain about being served with the same actions they set precedent on.

What's worse is the hypocrisy of it all. McCain for example said that the day the filibuster dies will be remembered as a dark day in Senate history, but he had no qualms to change Senate rules. He had no qualms to join filibusters for the sake of filibustering when they were in the minority. So how can I take the GOP at face value?


I take it you aren't a student of history, then.

Republicans aren't setting new precedent. Republicans are following the precedent set by Democrats in 2013. Republicans warned that if the Democrats nuked the filibuster for judicial nominations in 2013, then it was certain Republicans would pass judicial nominations on a 51 vote majority when they returned to power. That day has arrived. It's the Democrats who have no ground to complain, because this was an entirely foreseeable outcome of Harry Reid's hyper-partisan leadership.

And do recall, it was Democrats who first turned Supreme Court nominations into a partisan spectacle with Robert Bork in 1987. It was Democrats who began the practice of filibustering district court nominations in 2003. It was Democrats who mounted the first partisan filibuster attempt of a Supreme Court nominee in 2005. The Republicans could have easily changed filibuster rules to stop that nonsense in 2005, but they didn't. And yet, at the first opportunity it would benefit Democrats, the Democrats nuked the filibuster in 2013.

The Democrats' moral authority over judicial nomination procedures is precisely zero.
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einsteinboricua
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Re: How many Senate votes

Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:15 pm

DfwRevolution wrote:
And yet, at the first opportunity it would benefit Democrats, the Democrats nuked the filibuster in 2013.

Do you think Republicans wouldn't have done it? Senate rules were undone; they can be re-done. With the majority, if the GOP felt the filibuster was such as important tool, they had the power to restore it. If Democrats lack moral, Republicans are not far behind.

This is a case of a thief warning someone to not lock the door because if they do, they'll have to break it down in order to steal. Do you really think the GOP is sad the filibuster is gone?

Newsflash: they don't care. Although, if they lose the Senate, expect a quick rule change to reestablish the filibuster so that they can use it at will.
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DfwRevolution
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Re: How many Senate votes

Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:45 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
DfwRevolution wrote:
And yet, at the first opportunity it would benefit Democrats, the Democrats nuked the filibuster in 2013.

Do you think Republicans wouldn't have done it?


No need to speculate. History is all the proof we need:

Republicans had the opportunity to end the filibuster in 2005. They didn't.

Democrats had the opportunity to end the filibuster in 2013. They did.
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Dreadnought
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Re: How many Senate votes

Mon Apr 10, 2017 5:45 pm

FTMCPIUS wrote:
Conservatives are, by 'design,' not very "progressive." They pretty much like things that way they are (or were, anyway).


That's what the media and the education system tells you. The real difference between "conservatives" and "progressives" (themselves very slanted terms) is that progressives seem to have no trouble empowering the government with vast powers to control our lives, whereas conservatives resist that because they feel the more powerful a government, the more corrupt, inefficient and incompetent it becomes.

You can look at it in terms of religion. Progressives believe in the State's power to improve our lives, in spite of all the evidence to the contrary. They are the zealots. Conservatives are skeptical of granting such power to anyone. They are the agnostics.
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: How many Senate votes

Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:42 pm

IT'S OFFICIAL ! !

LET JUSTICE REIGN !!!

Image
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einsteinboricua
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Re: How many Senate votes

Tue Apr 11, 2017 12:00 am

DfwRevolution wrote:
Republicans had the opportunity to end the filibuster in 2005. They didn't.

Democrats had the opportunity to end the filibuster in 2013. They did.

You seem to leave a good deal of history out as well:

In 2005, it took the Gang of 14 to reach an agreement to not get rid of the filibuster. Judicial appointees would get an up and down vote (ie. not be subjected to a filibuster) and in exchange, the GOP members of the Gang of 14 would oppose the nuclear option. Democrats followed through and norms were preserved.

In 2013, just at the start of the 112th Congress, the Senate amended the rules (which was passed with bipartisan support) to reform the filibuster. This was the Democrats' last attempt to negotiate in good faith with Republicans who since then decided to go all in. When the filibuster was eliminated, there were 59 executive branch appointees and 17 judicial appointees waiting for confirmation, being held up for no other reason except that the minority could stall. The fact that a great deal of those appointees were eventually confirmed without objection or with far fewer opposing votes than needed to prevent cloture suggests that Republicans only used it for their own purpose.

Sure, they relish the fact that now they can confirm at will, but pendulums swing. And they'll be the minority once again, and then what?
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seb146
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Re: How many Senate votes

Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:59 am

BobPatterson wrote:
seb146 wrote:
NIKV69 wrote:
McConnell did the right thing. The DNC has taken their loss much worse than the GOP did in 2008 and nothing will ever get done with the Zealotry we are getting from Schumer, Murray, Pelosi et al. Sotomayor got treated much better than Gorsuch did and she is a total activist.


Well, no. When Republicans lost, it was McConnell who vowed to "...make Obama a one term president" and when that didn't work, he and all other right wing Republicans denied any action from any branch of government. Even so far as denying Obama his right to seat a Supreme Court justice.

As far as Sotomayor being an "activist" she actually recused herself on cases she had a conflict of interest in. Unlike Justice Thomas. And, yes, Gorsich is a total and complete activist for the right. He has legislated from the bench on behalf of the right many times.


In this response, and in the one that followed in this thread, you demonstrated that you really are capable of thoughtful comments, put forward in a decent manner, without shrillness.

They should be a model for everything you write on a.net.

Cheers


I have only been on this site 17+ years, so sorry you are offended by my style of posting. Others "get it" and as questions, as any reasonable, thoughtful adult does. Thank you, sir. Thank you for exposing who you really are. I will continue to be myself. You're welcome.
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WarRI1
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Re: How many Senate votes

Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:06 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
IT'S OFFICIAL ! !

LET JUSTICE REIGN !!!

Image



In my younger life, we were taught that the USSC was impartial, fair and beyond reproach as an equal branch of our Democratic Government. A place of deliberation and a place of last resort to right any wrongs wreaked on us by politicians. A place of justice. Justice is blind which is portrayed by Lady Justice and her blindfold, which we now know is a joke. Now what will really come to bite us in the ass is not the arrival of another Conservative justice, but the all too apparent truth that the USSC is just another partisan, political and religiously biased place of influence peddling by those very politicians who appoint them and who we need protection from. Money buys politicians and they appoint our Supreme Court Justices, guess what??

We have found out that we allowed the Fox to guard the hen house. The loss of faith and respect for the USSC is the tragic result. Once lost, probably never regained. That is what will bite us in the ass in the future.
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BobPatterson
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Re: How many Senate votes

Thu Apr 13, 2017 2:19 pm

WarRI1 wrote:
In my younger life, we were taught that the USSC was impartial, fair and beyond reproach as an equal branch of our Democratic Government. A place of deliberation and a place of last resort to right any wrongs wreaked on us by politicians. A place of justice.


It often is all of those things, but not always and, depending upon your point of view, quite beyond reach.

Our highest court's job is to adjudicate matters that rise up to it through the lower courts, using the Constitution, current laws and prior decisions as guidance.

Decisions are always the result of 8-9 people filtering information through distinctively different minds.

You were probably taught as most of us were, through the use of textbooks that were at best incomplete and, at worst, omitted much of our legal history. Dark areas of the national past were simply not talked about.

Were you taught about Dred Scott? The Alien and Sedition Acts? The internment of Japanese-Americans? "Separate but Equal" laws (Plessy v. Ferguson)?

I never heard about those things in history classes in school.

To get a better appreciation of the court I have found it useful, over the years, to read biographies and histories written by a diverse range of the Justices, and going back to the great John Marshall.

Most of the books I read came from the library and I don't remember the titles. The works I have at hand were all useful and worth re-reading after a few years:

The Brethren. Woodward and Armstrong, 1979.
A Justice For All. Eisler, 1993 (about William J. Brennan, Jr.).
It Is So Ordered. Burger, 1995.
The Supreme Court. Rehnquist, 2004 edition.
Making Our Democracy Work. Breyer, 2010.
Reading Law. Scalia and Garner, 2012.

If you are looking for knights in shining armor you will not find them. Nor should you expect to.

Our legal system is a work in progress, as it should be.
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zckls04
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Re: How many Senate votes

Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:44 pm

Dreadnought wrote:
You can look at it in terms of religion. Progressives believe in the State's power to improve our lives, in spite of all the evidence to the contrary. They are the zealots. Conservatives are skeptical of granting such power to anyone. They are the agnostics.


Perhaps in their own minds. And yet Conservatives are almost always in favor or essentially unlimited power for the police with no skepticism whatsoever.

The reality is that both sides LOVE government to intervene to further their own agenda, and hate it when it furthers the opposing camp's agenda.
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Dreadnought
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Re: How many Senate votes

Thu Apr 13, 2017 5:11 pm

zckls04 wrote:
[Perhaps in their own minds. And yet Conservatives are almost always in favor or essentially unlimited power for the police with no skepticism whatsoever.


You're just making shit up. It was people who believe in small, limited government government (aka conservatives in modern parlance) that put in place things like the 4th Amendment regarding search and seizure and probable cause, the 5th amendment, the 6th, the 7th and the 8th - all of which severely limit the power of the police (i.e. the state). Can you name a SINGLE example of conservatives favoring unlimited power to the police?

zckls04 wrote:
[The reality is that both sides LOVE government to intervene to further their own agenda, and hate it when it furthers the opposing camp's agenda.


Then neither side is conservative. Remember there are progressives in the GOP as well. A constitutional conservative will ALWAYS be skeptical of increased government power, even such power is motivated by the best of intentions. He might agree with it reluctantly out of necessity, but he won't like it. Power corrupts.

A perfect example is the Patriot Act. It was passed with widespread support with the best of intentions - to protect the country following the failures of our security systems to stop 9/11. Many conservatives voiced their nervousness at the time about it but agreed that the need was there and signed on. But once certain government people got the power they went to town with it and abused it.

Leftists don't seem to mind giving excessive power to the government - as long as they control it. Funny how recently Democrats are talking about states' rights etc after having scoffed them for years.
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opethfan
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Re: How many Senate votes

Thu Apr 13, 2017 6:59 pm

You're all partisan twats and any outsider looking at your petty squabbles should be embarrassed on your behalf.

You've stopped caring about justice, progress, equality, liberty, process, and all of that good stuff and instead just want your pigeon-holed teams to win and prove your superiority.

And what will half of the responses to this post say?

"The GOP did that in X when they did Y."

and the other half?

"The Dems did that with Y in X."

Maybe ya'll should look into something productive. Like electoral reform, or being empathetic.

I swear to God you all will get what you deserve.
 
petertenthije
Posts: 3376
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Re: How many Senate votes

Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:58 pm

opethfan wrote:
You're all partisan twats and any outsider looking at your petty squabbles should be embarrassed on your behalf.

You've stopped caring about justice, progress, equality, liberty, process, and all of that good stuff and instead just want your pigeon-holed teams to win and prove your superiority.

And what will half of the responses to this post say?

"The GOP did that in X when they did Y."

and the other half?

"The Dems did that with Y in X."

Maybe ya'll should look into something productive. Like electoral reform, or being empathetic.

I swear to God you all will get what you deserve.
I do believe you've nailed it 200%.
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zckls04
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Re: How many Senate votes

Thu Apr 13, 2017 8:30 pm

Dreadnought wrote:

You're just making shit up. It was people who believe in small, limited government government (aka conservatives in modern parlance) that put in place things like the 4th Amendment regarding search and seizure and probable cause, the 5th amendment, the 6th, the 7th and the 8th - all of which severely limit the power of the police (i.e. the state).


Those people were certainly in favor of limited government. People these days that call themselves "conservative" have very little in common with folk such as they.

Can you name a SINGLE example of conservatives favoring unlimited power to the police?


See every thread about a black person getting shot unlawfully. Every excuse in the book will be wheeled out, with depressing inevitability. Conservatives love to defend the police's power to be completely authoritarian.

Then neither side is conservative.


Finally, you've got it.

A perfect example is the Patriot Act. It was passed with widespread support with the best of intentions - to protect the country following the failures of our security systems to stop 9/11. Many conservatives voiced their nervousness at the time about it but agreed that the need was there and signed on.


Apart from the fact that the Patriot Act obviously wasn't necessary unless you're the kind of fool who thinks terrorism represents a statistically meaningful threat, you'd do well to remember that great adage, "A society that will trade a little liberty for a little order will lose both, and deserve neither". Conservatives are always parroting that hoary old chestnut, but their actions don't match their words.

Leftists don't seem to mind giving excessive power to the government - as long as they control it.


The difference is that they don't perceive it to be excessive, because they believe some things are more effectively handled by government than by less centralized means. Their views are at least consistent, whereas yours are as usual nonsensical partisanship.
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KLDC10
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Re: How many Senate votes

Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:01 pm

WarRI1 wrote:
In my younger life, we were taught that the USSC was impartial, fair and beyond reproach as an equal branch of our Democratic Government. A place of deliberation and a place of last resort to right any wrongs wreaked on us by politicians. A place of justice. Justice is blind which is portrayed by Lady Justice and her blindfold, which we now know is a joke. Now what will really come to bite us in the ass is not the arrival of another Conservative justice, but the all too apparent truth that the USSC is just another partisan, political and religiously biased place of influence peddling by those very politicians who appoint them and who we need protection from. Money buys politicians and they appoint our Supreme Court Justices, guess what??


Did you also write that comment on a New York Times article about the Supreme Court being "broken"? If not, it must simply have been a very similar opinion I was reading.
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WarRI1
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Re: How many Senate votes

Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:40 am

BobPatterson wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
In my younger life, we were taught that the USSC was impartial, fair and beyond reproach as an equal branch of our Democratic Government. A place of deliberation and a place of last resort to right any wrongs wreaked on us by politicians. A place of justice.


It often is all of those things, but not always and, depending upon your point of view, quite beyond reach.

Our highest court's job is to adjudicate matters that rise up to it through the lower courts, using the Constitution, current laws and prior decisions as guidance.

Decisions are always the result of 8-9 people filtering information through distinctively different minds.

You were probably taught as most of us were, through the use of textbooks that were at best incomplete and, at worst, omitted much of our legal history. Dark areas of the national past were simply not talked about.

Were you taught about Dred Scott? The Alien and Sedition Acts? The internment of Japanese-Americans? "Separate but Equal" laws (Plessy v. Ferguson)?

I never heard about those things in history classes in school.

To get a better appreciation of the court I have found it useful, over the years, to read biographies and histories written by a diverse range of the Justices, and going back to the great John Marshall.

Most of the books I read came from the library and I don't remember the titles. The works I have at hand were all useful and worth re-reading after a few years:

The Brethren. Woodward and Armstrong, 1979.
A Justice For All. Eisler, 1993 (about William J. Brennan, Jr.).
It Is So Ordered. Burger, 1995.
The Supreme Court. Rehnquist, 2004 edition.
Making Our Democracy Work. Breyer, 2010.
Reading Law. Scalia and Garner, 2012.

If you are looking for knights in shining armor you will not find them. Nor should you expect to.

Our legal system is a work in progress, as it should be.


You must remember how long ago this was. I am speaking of an age that does not exist anymore. WW2 had just ended, this country had Hero's everywhere. We trusted our government in those days. I finished school in the fifties. We had stopped Communism in Korea at great cost. We thought we were invincible. We had a breather until the Civil Rights movement and the tragedy of Viet Nam.

It has been all downhill after opening up China, the greed of corporations reaching a fever pitch, the greed of politicians reaching a fever pitch, the polarization of the voters, the destruction of the middleclass and workers standard of living, the political bullshit now with the USSC.

You think it is a work in progress when in reality it is broken. Corruption, influence peddling, hatred baiting, suppression of womens rights, charges of illegal voting flying, dealing with Russia a sworn enemy for greed and selling influence has never helped any Judicial system that I know of. I will not even mention again this case of the new Justice, a travesty of justice and politicall conduct. He should feel he is a fake, becase he is. By past practice, he should not be there.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: How many Senate votes

Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:51 am

KLDC10 wrote:
WarRI1 wrote:
In my younger life, we were taught that the USSC was impartial, fair and beyond reproach as an equal branch of our Democratic Government. A place of deliberation and a place of last resort to right any wrongs wreaked on us by politicians. A place of justice. Justice is blind which is portrayed by Lady Justice and her blindfold, which we now know is a joke. Now what will really come to bite us in the ass is not the arrival of another Conservative justice, but the all too apparent truth that the USSC is just another partisan, political and religiously biased place of influence peddling by those very politicians who appoint them and who we need protection from. Money buys politicians and they appoint our Supreme Court Justices, guess what??


Did you also write that comment on a New York Times article about the Supreme Court being "broken"? If not, it must simply have been a very similar opinion I was reading.



I wish I could take credit, but I cannot. I do take comfort in knowing I am not the only person in this country thinking that this is a tragic era in our history.. The system is tarnished and heading towards breaking, When people lose faith in our institutions, we are in trouble. The shining Mansion of the SC is not what it used to be. Covered in the soot of politics.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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BobPatterson
Posts: 2395
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Re: How many Senate votes

Fri Apr 14, 2017 12:57 pm

WarRI1 wrote:


You must remember how long ago this was. I am speaking of an age that does not exist anymore. WW2 had just ended, this country had Hero's everywhere. We trusted our government in those days. I finished school in the fifties. We had stopped Communism in Korea at great cost. We thought we were invincible. We had a breather until the Civil Rights movement and the tragedy of Viet Nam.
[/quote]
I do remember how long ago that was. I was there too.

I also know, from memory and from reading of times prior to my memories, that there never, ever, has been a utopian era with regard to our Supreme Court. I doubt that you can identify a single decade in the history of this country when all of the Court's decisions would meet with your approval as being up to the standards that you expect today.

Please tell me what you mean by "We had a breather until the Civil Rights movement......" How did the civil rights movement end the "breather"?

Thanks.
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WarRI1
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Re: How many Senate votes

Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:30 am

Bob Patterson.

WW2. Korea, in my high school days in the fifties, things were quiet on a national level and of course we were oblivious also to the underlying unrest. The South was a long way from New England. I was living in Florida when the Brown versus the Board of Education was handed down. (1954) I came back North in (55) The fifties were the best of my youth and then came the 60's. A much romanticized era the fifties. The Rock and Roll Era and Elvis.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
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BobPatterson
Posts: 2395
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Re: How many Senate votes

Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:50 am

WarRI1 wrote:
Bob Patterson.

WW2. Korea, in my high school days in the fifties, things were quiet on a national level and of course we were oblivious also to the underlying unrest. The South was a long way from New England. I was living in Florida when the Brown versus the Board of Education was handed down. (1954) I came back North in (55) The fifties were the best of my youth and then came the 60's. A much romanticized era the fifties. The Rock and Roll Era and Elvis.


Perhaps you forgot how the country was torn apart in the early to mid 50s by the communist witch hunts.

Ed Sullivan should have banned Elvis above the waist as well as below it. :-)

Several of my National Guard buddies forced me to play Elvis on MY radio in MY car, summer camp of 1956. That poor 49 Plymouth never recovered from the indecency.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
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WarRI1
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Re: How many Senate votes

Tue Apr 18, 2017 1:44 am

I do not think the McCarthy hearings ever came close to being as devise as the Civil Rights struggle and Viet Nam.
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.

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