WIederling
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Re: Trump considering options for Syria retaliation!

Sun Apr 16, 2017 7:09 am

Braybuddy wrote:
You guys are a hoot: you're prepared to completely ignore what would seem to be reasonably compelling evidence that Assad used chemical weapons,


As you note this is about "reason".

To accept this evidence as "compelling" needs lack of reason. ( actually and imho some large amount of gullibility.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Trump considering options for Syria retaliation!

Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:42 am

WIederling wrote:
As you note this is about "reason".

To accept this evidence as "compelling" needs lack of reason. ( actually and imho some large amount of gullibility.)

Yet you are prepared to accept Assad's version, for which there is zero evidence?
 
WIederling
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Re: Trump considering options for Syria retaliation!

Sun Apr 16, 2017 12:18 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
WIederling wrote:
As you note this is about "reason".

To accept this evidence as "compelling" needs lack of reason. ( actually and imho some large amount of gullibility.)

Yet you are prepared to accept Assad's version, for which there is zero evidence?


I really don't need Assad or Putin or Braybuddy to guide me.

The "stash hit by attack" conclusion was much more plausible than any of the other "explanations".
If you go into the "cui bono" aspects a direct SAA attack with war gases doesn't make sense either.

Faking such a thing to torpedo the Rebuild Syria Conference
http://newsok.com/article/feed/1179711
fits much better.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Trump considering options for Syria retaliation!

Sun Apr 16, 2017 1:29 pm

WIederling wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
WIederling wrote:
As you note this is about "reason".

To accept this evidence as "compelling" needs lack of reason. ( actually and imho some large amount of gullibility.)

Yet you are prepared to accept Assad's version, for which there is zero evidence?


I really don't need Assad or Putin or Braybuddy to guide me.

The "stash hit by attack" conclusion was much more plausible than any of the other "explanations".
If you go into the "cui bono" aspects a direct SAA attack with war gases doesn't make sense either.

Faking such a thing to torpedo the Rebuild Syria Conference
http://newsok.com/article/feed/1179711
fits much better.

Maybe I'm missing something, but the conference seems to be going ahead? And why would the US, or anyone, want to torpedo it? The statement last month from Sean Spicer that the US had to accept the "political reality" of Assad's (plus Donald Trump's non-intervention statements) would have led anyone to believe that the US were not going to get involved. And as for who gains, well if Assad believed it was to his benefit in 2013, why wouldn't he believe otherwise in 2017?
 
WIederling
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Re: Trump considering options for Syria retaliation!

Sun Apr 16, 2017 4:47 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something, but the conference seems to be going ahead?


You mix intention and success.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Trump considering options for Syria retaliation!

Sun Apr 16, 2017 8:07 pm

WIederling wrote:
Braybuddy wrote:
Maybe I'm missing something, but the conference seems to be going ahead?


You mix intention and success.

So who, in your opinion, wanted to scupper the conference?
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Trump considering options for Syria retaliation!

Sun Apr 16, 2017 11:53 pm

Guys, give us one piece of data that suggests the gas attack was not perpetrated by the SAA.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Trump considering options for Syria retaliation!

Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:44 am

Planeflyer wrote:
Guys, give us one piece of data that suggests the gas attack was not perpetrated by the SAA.

Don't hold your breath . . .

First the Russians claim that the attack was on a rebel-held military depot. How could they know without examining the site? Now Assad claims that the attacks were "100 per cent fabricated", using fake video evidence, contradicting the Russian claim. Amnesty International has authenticated video evidence shot in the aftermath.

Then Russia vetoes a UN resolution into an investigation into the attack.

Yet people are still prepared to completely ignore or refute the simplest and most obvious explanation.
 
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mad99
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Re: Trump considering options for Syria retaliation!

Mon Apr 17, 2017 10:06 am

Braybuddy wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
Guys, give us one piece of data that suggests the gas attack was not perpetrated by the SAA.

Don't hold your breath . . .

First the Russians claim that the attack was on a rebel-held military depot. How could they know without examining the site? Now Assad claims that the attacks were "100 per cent fabricated", using fake video evidence, contradicting the Russian claim. Amnesty International has authenticated video evidence shot in the aftermath.

Then Russia vetoes a UN resolution into an investigation into the attack.

Yet people are still prepared to completely ignore or refute the simplest and most obvious explanation.


I think Russia vetoed the resolution that condemned Syria for using CW when they don't believe Syria used them. I believe they are open and want an independent investigation.

From what i've read, doctors without borders say some people had signs of contact with CW and some smelled like chlorine.
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Trump considering options for Syria retaliation!

Mon Apr 17, 2017 2:21 pm

Videos can be faked but the preponderance of evidence from radio intercepts to the bombing of the hospital and all the points made by Braybuddy point to SAA.

In cases like this it's good to be skeptical but after a while objective reality should guide us.
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Trump considering options for Syria retaliation!

Mon Apr 17, 2017 9:12 pm

Planeflyer wrote:
In cases like this it's good to be skeptical but after a while objective reality should guide us.

Sadly lacking on here. A good BS filter can help too.
 
WIederling
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Re: Trump considering options for Syria retaliation!

Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:53 am

Braybuddy wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
In cases like this it's good to be skeptical but after a while objective reality should guide us.

Sadly lacking on here. A good BS filter can help too.


for a happy existence in your filter bubble. :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
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mad99
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Re: Trump considering options for Syria retaliation!

Tue Apr 18, 2017 7:29 am

Planeflyer wrote:
Videos can be faked but the preponderance of evidence from radio intercepts to the bombing of the hospital and all the points made by Braybuddy point to SAA.

In cases like this it's good to be skeptical but after a while objective reality should guide us.



help me understand. What radio intercepts are you referring to? Breybuddy linked a interview from a "chemical weapons expert" but when i google his name i find nothing about him. How does one become " a chemical weapons expert"?

so far no prof that saa carried out the attack.

And on a side note, the bombing of refugees the other day by "moderate rebels" kills twice as many and hardly gets a comment.
 
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mad99
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Re: Trump considering options for Syria retaliation!

Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:04 am

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmkK0jXSJQs

vid from the usa backed 'moderate rebels' bus bombing

obviously very NSFW and contains disturbing footage
 
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pvjin
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Re: Trump considering options for Syria retaliation!

Tue Apr 18, 2017 8:08 am

mad99 wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmkK0jXSJQs

vid from the usa backed 'moderate rebels' bus bombing

obviously very NSFW and contains disturbing footage


It's okay, as long as those dead aren't Sunni Muslims killed by Assad nobody in the west gives a damn.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
seb146
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Re: Trump considering options for Syria retaliation!

Tue Apr 18, 2017 2:24 pm

pvjin wrote:
mad99 wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EmkK0jXSJQs

vid from the usa backed 'moderate rebels' bus bombing

obviously very NSFW and contains disturbing footage


It's okay, as long as those dead aren't Sunni Muslims killed by Assad nobody in the west gives a damn.


Yet someone cared enough to bomb around an evacuated air field...
Patriotic and Proud Liberal
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Trump considering options for Syria retaliation!

Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:35 pm

WIederling wrote:
for a happy existence in your filter bubble. :-)

It certainly worked; maybe you might have saved yourself some bother if you'd used one yourself . . .
 
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Braybuddy
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Re: Trump considering options for Syria retaliation!

Tue Apr 18, 2017 6:47 pm

mad99 wrote:
Breybuddy linked a interview from a "chemical weapons expert" but when i google his name i find nothing about him. How does one become " a chemical weapons expert"

There you go:
http://www.militaryspeakers.co.uk/speak ... ordon-obe/
 
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mad99
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Re: Trump considering options for Syria retaliation!

Thu Apr 20, 2017 3:08 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
mad99 wrote:
Breybuddy linked a interview from a "chemical weapons expert" but when i google his name i find nothing about him. How does one become " a chemical weapons expert"

There you go:
http://www.militaryspeakers.co.uk/speak ... ordon-obe/


I read that

I know he wants money to talk but who is he? Meaning what's he's cv? How does someone become an expert?
 
LMP737
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Re: Trump considering options for Syria retaliation!

Mon Apr 24, 2017 5:03 pm

BobPatterson wrote:
.
We now have a President, whose name you dare not say, who will take measured action when lines drawn in the sand are overstepped.

Get used to it. There is more coming.

Because you are spineless, as well as without moral compass, you can't understand standing up to those who would use Sarin (or who will use nuclear weapons).

Our former President (whom I voted for) unfortunately lacked the spine to deal with such problems while they could be dealt with.


Which former president are you talking about? Is it Ronald Reagan because when Saddam Hussein used chemical weapons not only on the Iranians but the Kurds in he did absolutely nothing. Could you clarify who you are referring to?


BobPatterson wrote:
I doubt you can understand the need to preemptively prevent North Korea from having nuclear missiles capable of reaching the United States (or our allies). Our current President (whom I did not vote for) does understand that problem and will act appropriately, when the time comes, to prevent it.


I've asked this question on another thread and really haven't received much feed back. Who are you willing to sacrifice in said preemptive strike? Yourself, or maybe someone you know. Are willing to sacrifice the city of Seoul because the North Koreans have thousands of artillery pieces and rocket launchers within striking distance.

The problem is we have heard this argument before. Back in the 1960's we had to act to stop the spread of coummunism. What did it get us other than a black wall in D.C.? We heard pretty much the same thing in 2002. We all know how that turned out.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Trump considering options for Syria retaliation!

Tue Apr 25, 2017 12:51 am

It's a tough question but no more so than the reverse. Which is to say who are you willing to sacrifice in case NK does have the capabilities they claim?
 
LMP737
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Re: Trump considering options for Syria retaliation!

Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:19 pm

Planeflyer wrote:
It's a tough question but no more so than the reverse. Which is to say who are you willing to sacrifice in case NK does have the capabilities they claim?


Sure you can ask that question. However it kind of proves the point I made earlier. That similar arguments were used to justify Vietnam and Iraq and we all know how that turned out. My fear is we are heading down the same road.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
salttee
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Re: Trump considering options for Syria retaliation!

Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:44 pm

LMP737 wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
It's a tough question but no more so than the reverse. Which is to say who are you willing to sacrifice in case NK does have the capabilities they claim?


Sure you can ask that question. However it kind of proves the point I made earlier. That similar arguments were used to justify Vietnam and Iraq and we all know how that turned out. My fear is we are heading down the same road.
There was never any alleged physical threat to the US from Vietnam, that war had a deep rooted political genesis created by Allen Dulles, there is no comparison to be found to the Korean dilemma.

George Bush, while being guided by PNAC, tried to sell the idea that Saddam's Iraq was a threat to the US, but that was a lie and there was no debate about the subject at the time.

Kim has developed nuclear devices, that is known fact. Kim is developing long range missiles that is also known fact. He intends to develop nuclear tipped ICBMs and to target the US with them, there is no debate about that.

The reason we went into both Vietnam and Iraq can be seen as the fact that there never was an examination of the "facts" alleged about either situation, the debate, such as there was a debate in either case, was about vague generalities. I suggest that we not make that mistake again. The current situation in Korea needs to be looked at in detail on it's own.
 
LMP737
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Re: Trump considering options for Syria retaliation!

Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:07 pm

salttee wrote:
There was never any alleged physical threat to the US from Vietnam, that war had a deep rooted political genesis created by Allen Dulles, there is no comparison to be found to the Korean dilemma.


Not from Vietnam itself but from communism. Gotta fight communism over there otherwise we might have to fight it on our own shores.

salttee wrote:
George Bush, while being guided by PNAC, tried to sell the idea that Saddam's Iraq was a threat to the US, but that was a lie and there was no debate about the subject at the time


It really doesn't matter if it was lie or not. The argument was still used.

salttee wrote:
Kim has developed nuclear devices, that is known fact. Kim is developing long range missiles that is also known fact. He intends to develop nuclear tipped ICBMs and to target the US with them, there is no debate about that.


So there's no debate? Okay I say there is no debate that if there's a preemptive strike there's going to be bloodbath on the Korean peninsula.

salttee wrote:
The reason we went into both Vietnam and Iraq can be seen as the fact that there never was an examination of the "facts" alleged about either situation, the debate, such as there was a debate in either case, was about vague generalities. I suggest that we not make that mistake again. The current situation in Korea needs to be looked at in detail on it's own.


So what you're saying is that we don't have all the facts regarding this subject. This contradicts what you just said earlier.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
salttee
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Re: Trump considering options for Syria retaliation!

Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:19 pm

LMP737 wrote:
It really doesn't matter if it was lie or not. The argument was still used.
ummm, this time it is not a lie.
LMP737 wrote:
Okay I say there is no debate that if there's a preemptive strike there's going to be bloodbath on the Korean peninsula.
You're missing the other half of that argument. If Kim gets his ICBMs there is just as likely to be a bloodbath in SF or LA.
LMP737 wrote:
So what you're saying is that we don't have all the facts regarding this subject. This contradicts what you just said earlier.
No, that is not what I said.

The point is, that you just want to put any decision off. But we've been doing that for decades in the hope that things will improve and that has shown itself to be a delusion rather than a hope. Kim is now on the verge of being able to move the site of a potential conflict from the Korean peninsula to San Francisco or Los Angeles. This is and always has been a Korean problem; I say let's keep it there.

It is not a given that an aggressive tactic now will cause him to even try to nuke Seoul; and if he does, it is not a given that he would be successful. His artillery threat is what it has always been; he can mostly do a lot of property damage. His artillery tubes would be silenced pretty quickly if he went that route. Remember, nobody's calling for an invasion of the north.
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Trump considering options for Syria retaliation!

Sat Apr 29, 2017 4:58 am

I think Kim knows that his use of a nuclear weapon is the end of him.

The problem is this an example of best case thinking in a worst case scenario.

Now let's say he starts submarine patrols off the West Coast?

I'd sink it but obviously there's a fair bit of risk especially to those in SK.

Thank goodness we didn't listen to all the leftists who lobbied against missle defense. Imagine where we'd be if we had?

It's worth keeping in mind that American decisions in vietnam were guided by the Korean War.
 
LMP737
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Re: Trump considering options for Syria retaliation!

Thu May 04, 2017 6:04 pm

salttee wrote:
.

The point is, that you just want to put any decision off. But we've been doing that for decades in the hope that things will improve and that has shown itself to be a delusion rather than a hope. Kim is now on the verge of being able to move the site of a potential conflict from the Korean peninsula to San Francisco or Los Angeles. This is and always has been a Korean problem; I say let's keep it there.

It is not a given that an aggressive tactic now will cause him to even try to nuke Seoul; and if he does, it is not a given that he would be successful. His artillery threat is what it has always been; he can mostly do a lot of property damage. His artillery tubes would be silenced pretty quickly if he went that route. Remember, nobody's calling for an invasion of the north.


Essentially what you are saying is as long as it's someone else's country who gives a crap.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
tommy1808
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Re: Trump considering options for Syria retaliation!

Fri May 05, 2017 6:38 am

Braybuddy wrote:
You guys are a hoot: you're prepared to completely ignore what would seem to be reasonably compelling evidence that Assad used chemical weapons, and keep looking for proof, yet are prepared to offer no evidence to back up your claims that they came from a rebel-held cache.


I do think you get me wrong. At no point did i say Assads claim is correct, i just pointed out that you are only having a reasonable assumption, but you are not stating a fact. Highly likely is not the same as fact.

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.

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