ogre727
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At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Mon Apr 03, 2017 1:45 pm

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-39481770

Just read this.... looks pretty bad
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Francoflier
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Mon Apr 03, 2017 3:02 pm

Indeed. My thoughts go to the victims and their families.
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Dutchy
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:33 pm

Terrible, again terrorism in the heart of a metropolitan area.

But I must say the first thought was not of moslim terrorism, but terrorism of the Kremlin. In 1999 in order to make Putin the strongman for the upcoming elections, there where bomb attacks on apartment buildings, those were blamed on Chechens rebels, but a bomb plot was discovered and defused, the material came from the military. Later this was said to be a test, but the bombing was said to be the work of the FSB in order to make Putin the next president of Russia. Next year there will be presidential elections again, so it might be in connection with that. It would not surprise me, and that might be the sadist conclusion of all.
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:48 pm

45 Called Putin to extend him his condolences. He never even acknowledge the attack in Quebec City.

Interesting.
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Tue Apr 04, 2017 2:49 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Next year there will be presidential elections again, so it might be in connection with that. It would not surprise me, and that might be the sadist conclusion of all.


As much as I would mistrust Putin, I very much doubt if this were the case. He has the 2018 election pretty much sewn-up already, what with locking-up opponents and banning protests (although that didn't do much good last week, even if they weren't directed at Putin himself).

Sad for all the victims. The west could be working with Putin to combat Islamic terrorism if Russia, under his leadership, were not such a rogue state.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:01 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Terrible, again terrorism in the heart of a metropolitan area.

But I must say the first thought was not of moslim terrorism, but terrorism of the Kremlin. In 1999 in order to make Putin the strongman for the upcoming elections, there where bomb attacks on apartment buildings, those were blamed on Chechens rebels, but a bomb plot was discovered and defused, the material came from the military. Later this was said to be a test, but the bombing was said to be the work of the FSB in order to make Putin the next president of Russia. Next year there will be presidential elections again, so it might be in connection with that. It would not surprise me, and that might be the sadist conclusion of all.

Do you have anything to back that up?
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AirPacific747
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Tue Apr 04, 2017 9:06 pm

Always terrible with loss of lives, especially civilian. My condolences to the families and everyone else affected by this attack.

That said, Russia has been bombing civilians in large scales in Syria without being careful not to hit them on purpose. You could consider that terrorist attacks as well.
 
salttee
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Tue Apr 04, 2017 10:31 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Terrible, again terrorism in the heart of a metropolitan area.

But I must say the first thought was not of moslim terrorism, but terrorism of the Kremlin. In 1999 in order to make Putin the strongman for the upcoming elections, there where bomb attacks on apartment buildings, those were blamed on Chechens rebels, but a bomb plot was discovered and defused, the material came from the military. Later this was said to be a test, but the bombing was said to be the work of the FSB in order to make Putin the next president of Russia. Next year there will be presidential elections again, so it might be in connection with that. It would not surprise me, and that might be the sadist conclusion of all.

Do you have anything to back that up?

This is well known and has been reported on and commented on in many places.

Here is one source:
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/4 ... esponsible

Almost from the start, however, there were doubts about the provenance of the bombings, which could not have been better calculated to rescue the fortunes of Yeltsin and his entourage. Suspicions deepened when a fifth bomb was discovered in the basement of a building in Ryazan, a city southeast of Moscow, and those who had placed it turned out to be not Chechen terrorists but agents of the FSB. After these agents were arrested by local police, Nikolai Patrushev, the head of the FSB, said that the bomb had been a fake and that it had been planted in Ryazan as part of a training exercise. The bomb, however, tested positive for hexogen, the explosive used in the four successful apartment bombings. An investigation of the Ryazan incident was published in the newspaper Novaya Gazeta, and the public’s misgivings grew so widespread that the FSB agreed to a televised meeting between its top officials and residents of the affected building. The FSB in this way tried to demonstrate its openness, but the meeting was a disaster: It left the overwhelming impression that the incident in Ryazan was a failed political provocation.
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:43 am

AirPacific747 wrote:
That said, Russia has been bombing civilians in large scales in Syria without being careful not to hit them on purpose. You could consider that terrorist attacks as well.


14 dead and looks like Islamic terrorist.

Got a link to support that comment?

The Syrian government and its allies are fighting western backed Islamic heat choppers and they appear to be winning.
 
tu204
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:02 am

salttee wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Terrible, again terrorism in the heart of a metropolitan area.

But I must say the first thought was not of moslim terrorism, but terrorism of the Kremlin. In 1999 in order to make Putin the strongman for the upcoming elections, there where bomb attacks on apartment buildings, those were blamed on Chechens rebels, but a bomb plot was discovered and defused, the material came from the military. Later this was said to be a test, but the bombing was said to be the work of the FSB in order to make Putin the next president of Russia. Next year there will be presidential elections again, so it might be in connection with that. It would not surprise me, and that might be the sadist conclusion of all.

Do you have anything to back that up?

This is well known and has been reported on and commented on in many places.

Here is one source:
http://www.nationalreview.com/article/4 ... esponsible

Almost from the start, however, there were doubts about the provenance of the bombings, which could not have been better calculated to rescue the fortunes of Yeltsin and his entourage. Suspicions deepened when a fifth bomb was discovered in the basement of a building in Ryazan, a city southeast of Moscow, and those who had placed it turned out to be not Chechen terrorists but agents of the FSB. After these agents were arrested by local police, Nikolai Patrushev, the head of the FSB, said that the bomb had been a fake and that it had been planted in Ryazan as part of a training exercise. The bomb, however, tested positive for hexogen, the explosive used in the four successful apartment bombings. An investigation of the Ryazan incident was published in the newspaper Novaya Gazeta, and the public’s misgivings grew so widespread that the FSB agreed to a televised meeting between its top officials and residents of the affected building. The FSB in this way tried to demonstrate its openness, but the meeting was a disaster: It left the overwhelming impression that the incident in Ryazan was a failed political provocation.


Conspiracy theories.

Similar to "Dubya Did 9/11".

Both have their followers.
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Dutchy
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:47 am

tu204 wrote:
salttee wrote:


Conspiracy theories.

Similar to "Dubya Did 9/11".

Both have their followers.


Nope, the fifth FSB bomb is a fact.
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pvjin
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:20 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Terrible, again terrorism in the heart of a metropolitan area.

But I must say the first thought was not of moslim terrorism, but terrorism of the Kremlin. In 1999 in order to make Putin the strongman for the upcoming elections, there where bomb attacks on apartment buildings, those were blamed on Chechens rebels, but a bomb plot was discovered and defused, the material came from the military. Later this was said to be a test, but the bombing was said to be the work of the FSB in order to make Putin the next president of Russia. Next year there will be presidential elections again, so it might be in connection with that. It would not surprise me, and that might be the sadist conclusion of all.


You start to sound a lot like winterlight or whatever his name is. Perhaps the November 2015 Paris terrorist attacks where orchestrated by the EU to allow increased surveillance on its citizen?

AirPacific747 wrote:
That said, Russia has been bombing civilians in large scales in Syria without being careful not to hit them on purpose. You could consider that terrorist attacks as well.


Yes. When Russia bombs civilians it's always on purpose, but when the US does that it's always a mistake. When Russia supports a rebel group they are terrorists, when the US supports a rebel group they are freedom fighters.

The double standards here are astonishing.
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Dutchy
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:34 pm

pvjin wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Terrible, again terrorism in the heart of a metropolitan area.

But I must say the first thought was not of moslim terrorism, but terrorism of the Kremlin. In 1999 in order to make Putin the strongman for the upcoming elections, there where bomb attacks on apartment buildings, those were blamed on Chechens rebels, but a bomb plot was discovered and defused, the material came from the military. Later this was said to be a test, but the bombing was said to be the work of the FSB in order to make Putin the next president of Russia. Next year there will be presidential elections again, so it might be in connection with that. It would not surprise me, and that might be the sadist conclusion of all.


You start to sound a lot like winterlight or whatever his name is. Perhaps the November 2015 Paris terrorist attacks where orchestrated by the EU to allow increased surveillance on its citizen?

AirPacific747 wrote:
That said, Russia has been bombing civilians in large scales in Syria without being careful not to hit them on purpose. You could consider that terrorist attacks as well.


Yes. When Russia bombs civilians it's always on purpose, but when the US does that it's always a mistake. When Russia supports a rebel group they are terrorists, when the US supports a rebel group they are freedom fighters.

The double standards here are astonishing.


Let's say you are not the most objective about Russia, judging by your avatar. But what you are doing is quite exemplary for what the Russian government is doing:
First part: attacking the person, not the substance and conveniently ignoring what evidence there is, see salttee said about it.

Second part: the classic Calimero argument, he does it too, so don't have double standards. And then conveniently ignoring all other factors that come into play. Russia doesn't have the same standards as it comes to trying to save civilians in time of war. Don't start to compare the two, it is ridiculous.
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Wed Apr 05, 2017 1:41 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Let's say you are not the most objective about Russia, judging by your avatar.


Neither are you with the flag of a NATO country as your avatar.

Dutchy wrote:
First part: attacking the person, not the substance and conveniently ignoring what evidence there is, see salttee said about it.


I've seen no conclusive evidence, only bunch of conspiracy theories.

Dutchy wrote:
Second part: the classic Calimero argument, he does it too, so don't have double standards. And then conveniently ignoring all other factors that come into play. Russia doesn't have the same standards as it comes to trying to save civilians in time of war. Don't start to compare the two, it is ridiculous.


Last time I checked the actions of the United States have killed way, way more civilians since the beginning of this century than those of Russia. So yes, comparing the two is indeed ridiculous as the US is totally in it's own class at causing death and destruction around the world. Also let's not forget which country in practice created ISIS by ruining Iraq - that wasn't Russia.
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:36 pm

pvjin wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Let's say you are not the most objective about Russia, judging by your avatar.


Neither are you with the flag of a NATO country as your avatar.


And there you go again, I am showing my home country, you are showing a president of another country as a Finish citizen. Two completely different things.

pvjin wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
First part: attacking the person, not the substance and conveniently ignoring what evidence there is, see salttee said about it.


I've seen no conclusive evidence, only bunch of conspiracy theories.


The fifth FSB bomb is fact, confirmed by Russian police and FSB giving a bullshit explanation, the rest is theory yes, never said otherwise.

pvjin wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Second part: the classic Calimero argument, he does it too, so don't have double standards. And then conveniently ignoring all other factors that come into play. Russia doesn't have the same standards as it comes to trying to save civilians in time of war. Don't start to compare the two, it is ridiculous.


Last time I checked the actions of the United States have killed way, way more civilians since the beginning of this century than those of Russia. So yes, comparing the two is indeed ridiculous as the US is totally in it's own class at causing death and destruction around the world. Also let's not forget which country in practice created ISIS by ruining Iraq - that wasn't Russia.


Firstly, Russia is a regional power at best, America a world power, so no comparisment between the two. And the ISIS stuff, well indirectly yes, but heck that is quite indirectly. Russia has effectively destabilized tree countries.
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:42 pm

pvjin wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Let's say you are not the most objective about Russia, judging by your avatar.


Neither are you with the flag of a NATO country as your avatar.

Dutchy wrote:
First part: attacking the person, not the substance and conveniently ignoring what evidence there is, see salttee said about it.


I've seen no conclusive evidence, only bunch of conspiracy theories.

Dutchy wrote:
Second part: the classic Calimero argument, he does it too, so don't have double standards. And then conveniently ignoring all other factors that come into play. Russia doesn't have the same standards as it comes to trying to save civilians in time of war. Don't start to compare the two, it is ridiculous.


Last time I checked the actions of the United States have killed way, way more civilians since the beginning of this century than those of Russia. So yes, comparing the two is indeed ridiculous as the US is totally in it's own class at causing death and destruction around the world. Also let's not forget which country in practice created ISIS by ruining Iraq - that wasn't Russia.


Russia is a banana republic. It's on par with several African nations. It's never going to be in the same league as the United States. The (only) Russian aircraft carrier is a pretty good illustration of that. That is obvious on the way Russia is acting in a war. They don't have sophisticated technology to precision bomb targets, let alone finding these targets, so they just bomb all over the place, not giving a damn about civilian lives.

The US and other NATO allies go to great lengths to avoid hitting civilians, the Russians don't care.
 
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Wed Apr 05, 2017 6:29 pm

pvjin wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Let's say you are not the most objective about Russia, judging by your avatar.


Neither are you with the flag of a NATO country as your avatar.

Dutchy wrote:
First part: attacking the person, not the substance and conveniently ignoring what evidence there is, see salttee said about it.


I've seen no conclusive evidence, only bunch of conspiracy theories.

Dutchy wrote:
Second part: the classic Calimero argument, he does it too, so don't have double standards. And then conveniently ignoring all other factors that come into play. Russia doesn't have the same standards as it comes to trying to save civilians in time of war. Don't start to compare the two, it is ridiculous.


Last time I checked the actions of the United States have killed way, way more civilians since the beginning of this century than those of Russia. So yes, comparing the two is indeed ridiculous as the US is totally in it's own class at causing death and destruction around the world. Also let's not forget which country in practice created ISIS by ruining Iraq - that wasn't Russia.



You forgot Stalin.......
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:32 pm

AirPacific747 wrote:
pvjin wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Let's say you are not the most objective about Russia, judging by your avatar.


Neither are you with the flag of a NATO country as your avatar.

Dutchy wrote:
First part: attacking the person, not the substance and conveniently ignoring what evidence there is, see salttee said about it.


I've seen no conclusive evidence, only bunch of conspiracy theories.

Dutchy wrote:
Second part: the classic Calimero argument, he does it too, so don't have double standards. And then conveniently ignoring all other factors that come into play. Russia doesn't have the same standards as it comes to trying to save civilians in time of war. Don't start to compare the two, it is ridiculous.


Last time I checked the actions of the United States have killed way, way more civilians since the beginning of this century than those of Russia. So yes, comparing the two is indeed ridiculous as the US is totally in it's own class at causing death and destruction around the world. Also let's not forget which country in practice created ISIS by ruining Iraq - that wasn't Russia.


Russia is a banana republic. It's on par with several African nations. It's never going to be in the same league as the United States. The (only) Russian aircraft carrier is a pretty good illustration of that. That is obvious on the way Russia is acting in a war. They don't have sophisticated technology to precision bomb targets, let alone finding these targets, so they just bomb all over the place, not giving a damn about civilian lives.

The US and other NATO allies go to great lengths to avoid hitting civilians, the Russians don't care.


Wow. Never expected to see so much BS and all compressed in one fairly small post.
Or was it supposed to be sarcasm? If so, pmease excuse me.
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:08 pm

tu204 wrote:
AirPacific747 wrote:
pvjin wrote:

Neither are you with the flag of a NATO country as your avatar.



I've seen no conclusive evidence, only bunch of conspiracy theories.



Last time I checked the actions of the United States have killed way, way more civilians since the beginning of this century than those of Russia. So yes, comparing the two is indeed ridiculous as the US is totally in it's own class at causing death and destruction around the world. Also let's not forget which country in practice created ISIS by ruining Iraq - that wasn't Russia.


Russia is a banana republic. It's on par with several African nations. It's never going to be in the same league as the United States. The (only) Russian aircraft carrier is a pretty good illustration of that. That is obvious on the way Russia is acting in a war. They don't have sophisticated technology to precision bomb targets, let alone finding these targets, so they just bomb all over the place, not giving a damn about civilian lives.

The US and other NATO allies go to great lengths to avoid hitting civilians, the Russians don't care.


Wow. Never expected to see so much BS and all compressed in one fairly small post.
Or was it supposed to be sarcasm? If so, pmease excuse me.


Of course it was not sarcasm.
 
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pvjin
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:11 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Firstly, Russia is a regional power at best, America a world power, so no comparisment between the two. And the ISIS stuff, well indirectly yes, but heck that is quite indirectly. Russia has effectively destabilized tree countries.


Yet this so called regional power managed to choose the president of the United States according to many liberals. That's quite an act from a mere regional power.

AirPacific747 wrote:
Russia is a banana republic. It's on par with several African nations. It's never going to be in the same league as the United States. The (only) Russian aircraft carrier is a pretty good illustration of that. That is obvious on the way Russia is acting in a war. They don't have sophisticated technology to precision bomb targets, let alone finding these targets, so they just bomb all over the place, not giving a damn about civilian lives.

The US and other NATO allies go to great lengths to avoid hitting civilians, the Russians don't care.


Maybe NATO should then gift Russia some more fancy weapons that would help avoiding civilian casualties.

Besides, the fact United States has the most sophisticated military tech in the world is hardly something to be proud of while their education system ranks way below that of Russia. What is more important, killing people as effectively as possible, or taking care of your own people's education? In 2015 PISA ranking on mathematics Russia's position was 23th, while United States ranked 40. In other fields they were positioned pretty near each other.

For such a rich country United States is quite miserable in all areas of society which actually are important to lives of ordinary people.

bhill wrote:
You forgot Stalin.......


Stalin died a long time ago. If we go so much back in time we can also add Vietnam on the list of US war crimes.
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:15 pm

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/02/r ... 47908.html

'nuff said. Russia is just as guilty as the Syrian regime.

pvjin, funny how the standard of living in Russia is way below that in the west if their education system is as good as you say it is. Russia also has a lot of natural resources, so then why is the standard of living in Russia low compared to the west? On paper, Russia should be a very prosperous nation, but it isn't.

Corruption in Russia is also in a whole different league compared to the West.

pvjin wrote:
Yet this so called regional power managed to choose the president of the United States according to many liberals. That's quite an act from a mere regional power.

You said it yourself "according to many liberals". End of that argument. Trump had still won. Many Americans were tired of Obama and Hillary would have been more of the same.
 
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pvjin
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:30 pm

AirPacific747 wrote:
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/02/r ... 47908.html

'nuff said. Russia is just as guilty as the Syrian regime.


Syrian regime is no more guilty than the other side. It's an ugly war, and of all ugly choices Assad is the least ugly as he's the only one who can return peace and order to Syria. Russia is doing the right thing by supporting him, supporting the rebels would just mean a prolonged civil war.

AirPacific747 wrote:
pvjin, funny how the standard of living in Russia is way below that in the west if their education system is as good as you say it is. Russia also has a lot of natural resources, so then why is the standard of living in Russia low compared to the west? On paper, Russia should be a very prosperous nation, but it isn't.


Material standard of living isn't everything.

AirPacific747 wrote:
Corruption in Russia is also in a whole different league compared to the West.


Russia has more low level corruption than the West does, but on high level there's hardly any difference. Power corrupts everywhere.
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AirPacific747
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:33 pm

pvjin wrote:
AirPacific747 wrote:
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2017/02/r ... 47908.html

'nuff said. Russia is just as guilty as the Syrian regime.


Syrian regime is no more guilty than the other side. It's an ugly war, and of all ugly choices Assad is the least ugly as he's the only one who can return peace and order to Syria. Russia is doing the right thing by supporting him, supporting the rebels would just mean a prolonged civil war.

AirPacific747 wrote:
pvjin, funny how the standard of living in Russia is way below that in the west if their education system is as good as you say it is. Russia also has a lot of natural resources, so then why is the standard of living in Russia low compared to the west? On paper, Russia should be a very prosperous nation, but it isn't.


Material standard of living isn't everything.

AirPacific747 wrote:
Corruption in Russia is also in a whole different league compared to the West.


Russia has more low level corruption than the West does, but on high level there's hardly any difference. Power corrupts everywhere.


lol. The only side using chemical weapons, fighters and missiles is the regime backed by Russia. That's one of the reasons why Russia is a rogue state.

Material standard of living isn't everything? haha who claimed that it was? A few other examples where Russia also falls short.

Human rights
Democracy
Corruption
Free speech

As I said. Russia is on par with many African nations.

And your last point is plain wrong. Corruption is much higher in Russia at any level, but thanks for playing.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:43 pm

It is such a shame that you so fiercely defend Putin's Russia, Pvjin, especially you enjoy all kind of freedoms in Finland that an ordinary Russian lags. But it is a free country so you have the right to do these kind of things. For instance, Russia is corrupt from the top down, Putin is said to have between 40 and 200bn, protest were against Dmitry Medvedev squashed last week and it was because of corruption by this prime minister. No basic freedoms, no basic rule of law. But please continue to defend this autocrat, it is entertaining at least. :)
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Aeroflot777
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:19 pm

Sad how a thread about people losing their lives in a terrorist attack turns into yet another typical anti-Russian bashing, in normal A.net fashion. Makes me think some of you members on here are nothing but media-brainwashed machines who spew the same nonsense over and over. In a politically hot climate, seems like rationale flies out the door and some manhood-measuring parties come into the light.
 
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pvjin
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:43 pm

AirPacific747 wrote:
lol. The only side using chemical weapons, fighters and missiles is the regime backed by Russia. That's one of the reasons why Russia is a rogue state.


Yeah, the other side prefers suicide bombs and using civilians as hostages by staying in hospitals. Also, if supporting Assad makes Russia a rogue state the US can't be much better when they support Saudi-Arabia. Syrians under Assad have more rights than people in KSA do.

AirPacific747 wrote:
Human rights


Russia has enough human rights to satisfy me. Democracy is mostly an illusion, like George Carlin said politicians

AirPacific747 wrote:
Democracy


"The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice. You don’t. You have no choice. You have owners. They own you."

A perfect description of Western parliamentary "democracy" by George Carlin. Not that Russians have a choice either, but at least they have a strong leader.

AirPacific747 wrote:
Corruption


Finland has such a large amount of ridiculous regulation that I would be glad if I could just bribe myself through some of it.

AirPacific747 wrote:
Free speech


Free speech is highly limited also in most of western world, especially in Western Europe.

Dutchy wrote:
It is such a shame that you so fiercely defend Putin's Russia, Pvjin, especially you enjoy all kind of freedoms in Finland that an ordinary Russian lags.


I don't enjoy a single freedom that an ordinary Russian doesn't have. They too have the right to vote in meaningless elections that don't change anything. Our freedom of speech is no better than theirs, the only difference are the topics which can't be talked about without some consequences, and the form of consequences if you talk about wrong topics.

In fact Russians enjoy many freedoms I don't. They can legally order tobacco products from internet, I can't. They can buy vodka from their nearby supermarket, while in Finland we have an alcohol monopoly controlled by the government, making everything terribly expensive. On top of that the alcohol shops are not open on Sundays, you can't buy a bottle of wine in this country if it's Sunday, what kind of freedom is this? I also believe Russia has less meaningless restrictions imposed by ecofascists, like high taxation on cars with big engines, as if that will save the planet.
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Braybuddy
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:18 pm

pvjin wrote:
In fact Russians enjoy many freedoms I don't. They can legally order tobacco products from internet, I can't. They can buy vodka from their nearby supermarket, while in Finland we have an alcohol monopoly controlled by the government, making everything terribly expensive. On top of that the alcohol shops are not open on Sundays, you can't buy a bottle of wine in this country if it's Sunday, what kind of freedom is this? I also believe Russia has less meaningless restrictions imposed by ecofascists, like high taxation on cars with big engines, as if that will save the planet.

Wonderful. I presume these are the reasons so many refugees are risking their lives to get to Russia?
 
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AirPacific747
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:39 pm

pvjin wrote:
Yeah, the other side prefers suicide bombs and using civilians as hostages by staying in hospitals. Also, if supporting Assad makes Russia a rogue state the US can't be much better when they support Saudi-Arabia. Syrians under Assad have more rights than people in KSA do.


So does the side you support. No, there are many reasons why Russia is a rogue (loser) state. This is just another reason.

The US is much better than Russia in any way you look at it. Saudi doesn't use chemical weapons against its own population. Better luck next time.

pvjin wrote:
Russia has enough human rights to satisfy me. Democracy is mostly an illusion, like George Carlin said politicians


Yeah right. You have no idea what you're talking about. Either that or you're a troll.

pvjin wrote:

"The politicians are put there to give you the idea that you have freedom of choice. You don’t. You have no choice. You have owners. They own you."

A perfect description of Western parliamentary "democracy" by George Carlin. Not that Russians have a choice either, but at least they have a strong leader.

False statement. We have actual freedom to choose our leaders. If you don't like any of the candidates, you can create your own political party and try to get enough support to be represented. It sounds like you're wearing a tinfoil hat.


pvjin wrote:
Finland has such a large amount of ridiculous regulation that I would be glad if I could just bribe myself through some of it.

Yes, just like the guy who raped your mother and killed her afterwards can also bribe his way out of prison. Awesome.

pvjin wrote:
Free speech is highly limited also in most of western world, especially in Western Europe.

No it isn't. The government will never try to shut your mouth unlike Russia.
 
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pvjin
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:14 pm

Braybuddy wrote:
Wonderful. I presume these are the reasons so many refugees are risking their lives to get to Russia?


Another point for Russia, they don't have a refugee problem.

AirPacific747 wrote:
The US is much better than Russia in any way you look at it. Saudi doesn't use chemical weapons against its own population. Better luck next time.


So far there has been no conclusive evidence that Assad actually used chemical weapons a couple of days ago, the source of the gas could have been rebels. But obviously the western media will report what they please, no matter the facts.

AirPacific747 wrote:
Yeah right. You have no idea what you're talking about. Either that or you're a troll.


I do, I simply have different values.

AirPacific747 wrote:
False statement. We have actual freedom to choose our leaders. If you don't like any of the candidates, you can create your own political party and try to get enough support to be represented. It sounds like you're wearing a tinfoil hat.


Yeah right, with EU blackmailing any government that differs from the official line there's little any national gov can do anymore.

AirPacific747 wrote:
Yes, just like the guy who raped your mother and killed her afterwards can also bribe his way out of prison. Awesome.


Whatever, in Finland the sentences are so short the offender would be out of jail in no time anyway. If you want justice you won't get it from the legal system here.

AirPacific747 wrote:
No it isn't. The government will never try to shut your mouth unlike Russia.


Not true, if I criticize Islam publicly harshly enough I might get fined. Some ideologies receive special protection from the system, which I believe is bad, even though I don't hate moderate Islam.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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AirPacific747
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:29 pm

pvjin wrote:
So far there has been no conclusive evidence that Assad actually used chemical weapons a couple of days ago, the source of the gas could have been rebels. But obviously the western media will report what they please, no matter the facts.

False.There's plenty of evidence. The fact that Russia won't condemn the usage of it, just proves that Russia approves of the Syrian regime using it.

pvjin wrote:
I do, I simply have different values.

Perhaps, but you still have no idea what you're talking about.

pvjin wrote:
Yeah right, with EU blackmailing any government that differs from the official line there's little any national gov can do anymore.


Where's the proof?

pvjin wrote:
Whatever, in Finland the sentences are so short the offender would be out of jail in no time anyway. If you want justice you won't get it from the legal system here.

I disagree. The crime rate in Finland is many times lower than in Russia. Obviously Finland is doing something right :-) But when you live in Russia some day, let's see how you feel about being able to bribe authorities, when someone commits a crime against you and they bribe their way out of trouble. Just shows how lame your arguments are.

pvjin wrote:
Not true, if I criticize Islam publicly harshly enough I might get fined. Some ideologies receive special protection from the system, which I believe is bad, even though I don't hate moderate Islam.


Yes, if you are trying to spread hatred or violence towards certain ethnicities or religions, of course, because that has nothing to do with freedom of speech. Just like you wouldn't appreciate it if an imam could preach in a mosque in Finland to go and kill you and other Finnish people.
But you are right now publicly criticizing the Finnish state and the way things are run. You are free to do something about it. That's not the case in Russia in case you weren't aware.
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:31 am

pvjin wrote:
So far there has been no conclusive evidence that Assad actually used chemical weapons a couple of days ago, the source of the gas could have been rebels. But obviously the western media will report what they please, no matter the facts.


Soros-Linked Group Behind Chemical Attack in Syria

A False Flag ??

https://www.infowars.com/report-soros-l ... -in-syria/

A day prior to the attack, Gulf-based Orient TV announced “Tomorrow we are launching a media campaign to cover the airstrikes on Hama country side including the usage of chemical warfare against civilians.” This shows clear foreknowledge that the rebels were going to stage an attack by Orient TV.
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
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Dutchy
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Thu Apr 06, 2017 5:42 am

DIRECTFLT wrote:
pvjin wrote:
So far there has been no conclusive evidence that Assad actually used chemical weapons a couple of days ago, the source of the gas could have been rebels. But obviously the western media will report what they please, no matter the facts.


Soros-Linked Group Behind Chemical Attack in Syria

A False Flag ??

https://www.infowars.com/report-soros-l ... -in-syria/

A day prior to the attack, Gulf-based Orient TV announced “Tomorrow we are launching a media campaign to cover the airstrikes on Hama country side including the usage of chemical warfare against civilians.” This shows clear foreknowledge that the rebels were going to stage an attack by Orient TV.


Are you seriously? Are you taking infowars on face value?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Thu Apr 06, 2017 5:44 am

pvjin wrote:
AirPacific747 wrote:
Yeah right. You have no idea what you're talking about. Either that or you're a troll.


I do, I simply have different values.


What are our values? Why are you putting Putin's Russia above western Europe? Or your own country Finland.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Braybuddy
Posts: 6101
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:09 am

pvjin wrote:
Another point for Russia, they don't have a refugee problem.

They don't need one. They have their own home-grown terrorists to deal with. But, given that you hold Vladimir Putin in such high regard, you can always set the ball rolling . . .
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 10610
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:19 am

AirPacific747 wrote:
Always terrible with loss of lives, especially civilian. My condolences to the families and everyone else affected by this attack.

That said, Russia has been bombing civilians in large scales in Syria without being careful not to hit them on purpose. You could consider that terrorist attacks as well.


And the US has been doing the same since 9/11 in Afghanistan and Iraq, as well as in Libya and Syria. You could also consider these terrorits attached as well or doesn't it count because it's the US carrying them out?
 
Kiwirob
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:24 am

Dutchy wrote:
Second part: the classic Calimero argument, he does it too, so don't have double standards. And then conveniently ignoring all other factors that come into play. Russia doesn't have the same standards as it comes to trying to save civilians in time of war. Don't start to compare the two, it is ridiculous.


It's a war zone, people get killed, in WW2 millions upon millions of civilians died, it's tough but as they say all's fair in love and war. I don't believe the US cares anymore about civilian casualties than the Russians do, the difference is the US has too look nice in front of the press and the Russians don't.
 
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mad99
Posts: 1007
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:35 am

Kiwirob wrote:
AirPacific747 wrote:
Always terrible with loss of lives, especially civilian. My condolences to the families and everyone else affected by this attack.

That said, Russia has been bombing civilians in large scales in Syria without being careful not to hit them on purpose. You could consider that terrorist attacks as well.


And the US has been doing the same since 9/11 in Afghanistan and Iraq, as well as in Libya and Syria. You could also consider these terrorits attached as well or doesn't it count because it's the US carrying them out?


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world ... 63881.html

according to the above they've killed more than the rest last month
 
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mad99
Posts: 1007
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:38 am

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04 ... sad-syria/

Looks like Trump aint gonna take it anymore. Time to sort this out!
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 10610
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:42 am

AirPacific747 wrote:
False statement. We have actual freedom to choose our leaders. If you don't like any of the candidates, you can create your own political party and try to get enough support to be represented. It sounds like you're wearing a tinfoil hat.


Except in the US it didn't work like that did it, the majority of people voted for the other candidate, yet the person with significantly less votes won?????
 
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pvjin
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:09 am

AirPacific747 wrote:
Just like you wouldn't appreciate it if an imam could preach in a mosque in Finland to go and kill you and other Finnish people.


One can spread quite a lot of hate speech towards Finnish people in this country before the legal system will take any action. Way more than a member of the majority can spread about minority.

Dutchy wrote:
What are our values? Why are you putting Putin's Russia above western Europe? Or your own country Finland.


Because it seems to me that western Europe has become quite degenerate, and that its culture is dying. I can't relate to modern white-guilt liberal Europeans who have zero respect for their own history and culture, zero national pride.

mad99 wrote:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/04 ... sad-syria/

Looks like Trump aint gonna take it anymore. Time to sort this out!


How are you going to sort out a huge mess like Syria? Removing a dictator from power didn't bring peace in Iraq or Libya, in fact quite the opposite, both countries were much safer under rule of those two dictators.

In the end all this BS is about the ages old Sunni-Shia, KSA-Iran conflict. There is no way to fix it apart from carpet nuking the entire Middle-East, and the least bad realistic option is continuation of the current regime.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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mad99
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:51 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pS6Oa_aDS6E

Ex-UK Ambassador: Assad wasn't behind the chemical attack
 
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pvjin
Posts: 3540
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:02 pm

mad99 wrote:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pS6Oa_aDS6E

Ex-UK Ambassador: Assad wasn't behind the chemical attack


Makes sense. If you actually think about it, the last logical thing for Assad to do at this point would be using chemical weapons. With support of Russia he's winning anyway, chemical weapons wouldn't make a major difference in the war and would only turn the international community against him. So why on earth would he use them, I don't think he's an idiot?

Probably it indeed was simply an attack on rebel owned chemical weapons factory / storage site, and the Western media is just blaming it on Assad without any real proof. Proof that comes from Turkey or organizations known to be unreliable and biased (such as The Syrian Observatory For Human Rights) is no real proof at all. What we need is an independent investigation by the UN, until such investigation has been conducted the media shouldn't blame either side.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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Dutchy
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:06 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Second part: the classic Calimero argument, he does it too, so don't have double standards. And then conveniently ignoring all other factors that come into play. Russia doesn't have the same standards as it comes to trying to save civilians in time of war. Don't start to compare the two, it is ridiculous.


It's a war zone, people get killed, in WW2 millions upon millions of civilians died, it's tough but as they say all's fair in love and war. I don't believe the US cares anymore about civilian casualties than the Russians do, the difference is the US has too look nice in front of the press and the Russians don't.


I think they do take more precautions because they need to. Public opion matters in the West. In Russia it doens't really, anyhow the Kremlin controls the media so unfavorable reporting will be squashed, in the west they can't so any mistake will be widely reported and can undermine the public will to continue it.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:11 pm

pvjin wrote:
What we need is an independent investigation by the UN, until such investigation has been conducted the media shouldn't blame either side.


Agreed, but that is what Russia blocked in the UNSC last night.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:13 pm

pvjin wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
What are our values? Why are you putting Putin's Russia above western Europe? Or your own country Finland.


Because it seems to me that western Europe has become quite degenerate, and that its culture is dying. I can't relate to modern white-guilt liberal Europeans who have zero respect for their own history and culture, zero national pride.


Question stands, what are your values.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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pvjin
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:36 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Question stands, what are your values.


I'm a rather conservative guy who thinks pretty much everything in my country and in Western Europe was much better some decades ago. I believe a nation should first and foremost take care of its citizen, everybody else should come only second. Certain amount of liberalism and individual freedoms is good, however the government should be strong and have authority to do what's necessary if some groups decide not to respect the law and customs of the land. "When in Rome, do as the Romans do" should be a rule that all foreigners in my country shall obey, if they don't the government should take appropriate action to correct their behaviour. My country should have no responsibility whatsoever to act as a social welfare office of the entire planet, it should grant asylums only to refugees who have high chances and motivation to integrating into our society, useful education and religious values that are compatible with our system and culture.

I support democracy, however it should be more direct than our parliamentary democracies nowadays, as close to the people as possible. Each nation state should be able to determine its own laws, international co-operation should be limited to areas like economy, tracking crime, fighting environmental issues and so on.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:38 pm

Dutchy wrote:
DIRECTFLT wrote:
pvjin wrote:
So far there has been no conclusive evidence that Assad actually used chemical weapons a couple of days ago, the source of the gas could have been rebels. But obviously the western media will report what they please, no matter the facts.


Soros-Linked Group Behind Chemical Attack in Syria

A False Flag ??

https://www.infowars.com/report-soros-l ... -in-syria/

A day prior to the attack, Gulf-based Orient TV announced “Tomorrow we are launching a media campaign to cover the airstrikes on Hama country side including the usage of chemical warfare against civilians.” This shows clear foreknowledge that the rebels were going to stage an attack by Orient TV.


Are you seriously? Are you taking infowars on face value?


Yes, but they are many sources that I do not take at face value, ever, like:

Chuck Schumer

Nancy Pelosi

Hillary Clinton

Mary Landrieu

Maxine Waters

Sheila Jackson Lee

Debbie Wasserman Schultz
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
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DIRECTFLT
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:44 pm

pvjin wrote:
AirPacific747 wrote:
How are you going to sort out a huge mess like Syria? Removing a dictator from power didn't bring peace in Iraq or Libya, in fact quite the opposite, both countries were much safer under rule of those two dictators.

In the end all this BS is about the ages old Sunni-Shia, KSA-Iran conflict. There is no way to fix it apart from carpet nuking the entire Middle-East, and the least bad realistic option is continuation of the current regime.


It has always been my opinion, that after Saddam was toppled in Iraq, that the US should have secured the oil fields for "us", and let the Shia and Sunnis have at it, and then whomever was left standing, deal with "them" as the Govt.

But this "Nation-Building", in a heavy mix of Sunni-Shia, is madness, from the beginning.
Smoothest Ride so far ~ AA A300B4-600R ~~ Favorite Aviation Author ~ Robert J. Serling
 
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Dutchy
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:31 pm

pvjin wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Question stands, what are your values.


I'm a rather conservative guy who thinks pretty much everything in my country and in Western Europe was much better some decades ago. I believe a nation should first and foremost take care of its citizen, everybody else should come only second. Certain amount of liberalism and individual freedoms is good, however the government should be strong and have authority to do what's necessary if some groups decide not to respect the law and customs of the land. "When in Rome, do as the Romans do" should be a rule that all foreigners in my country shall obey, if they don't the government should take appropriate action to correct their behaviour. My country should have no responsibility whatsoever to act as a social welfare office of the entire planet, it should grant asylums only to refugees who have high chances and motivation to integrating into our society, useful education and religious values that are compatible with our system and culture.

I support democracy, however it should be more direct than our parliamentary democracies nowadays, as close to the people as possible. Each nation state should be able to determine its own laws, international co-operation should be limited to areas like economy, tracking crime, fighting environmental issues and so on.


May I dare to say, no you don't. You don't support democracy, you don't support liberal western values. Yes, you support very strong government. And this I can say, because you support the Putin regime. A regime which has nothing to do with values of western Europe and has nothing to do with the values you describe. I don't know much about Finland, I must admit, but since they joined the EU, I suspect they subscribe to the values of it, Russian regime doesn't.

So as long as you have that avantar, I don't believe you what you are stating here, sorry.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: At least 10 dead in St. Petersburg metro explosions

Thu Apr 06, 2017 9:35 pm

DIRECTFLT wrote:
pvjin wrote:
AirPacific747 wrote:
How are you going to sort out a huge mess like Syria? Removing a dictator from power didn't bring peace in Iraq or Libya, in fact quite the opposite, both countries were much safer under rule of those two dictators.

In the end all this BS is about the ages old Sunni-Shia, KSA-Iran conflict. There is no way to fix it apart from carpet nuking the entire Middle-East, and the least bad realistic option is continuation of the current regime.


It has always been my opinion, that after Saddam was toppled in Iraq, that the US should have secured the oil fields for "us", and let the Shia and Sunnis have at it, and then whomever was left standing, deal with "them" as the Govt.

But this "Nation-Building", in a heavy mix of Sunni-Shia, is madness, from the beginning.


ok, damn all option and steal the natural resources from another country.

I don't subscribe to that point of view. If you topple a regime, then you have the responsibility for the ordinary people, not the right to rob them.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!

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