Pyrex
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Tue Apr 04, 2017 12:15 pm

seahawk wrote:
Seems like the British not only lost their countenance but also their sense for humour and sarcasm.


Germans should probably stick to making cars, as humour is really not their strong suit, particularly when it comes to casual references to invading other countries...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ienp4J3pW7U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QvyhVf6Hv1Q
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
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Zkpilot
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:03 am

P1aneMad wrote:
Just for argument's sake, short of using nuclear weapons how exactly would the UK defend Gibraltar in an imaginary war with Spain?

The RN is about 3x as powerful as Spain's Navy and is in a better state of readiness.
The RAF is also about 3x as powerful as Spain's Airforce.
Ditto the Army.
And that is not including nukes (not that the UK would ever likely use them against Spain).

So with the RN defending Gibraltar from the sea and the RAF dominating the air over Spain that just leaves the Army - and well there is only one land access point which is within range of naval guns and/or air strikes.
Despite French animosity to the British over the centuries I really do think they would be wanting to stay out of it completely so Spain would be by itself. It wouldn't have a huge effect on the rest of the EU. We wouldn't be talking total war either - literally the UK would take out most of Spain's Navy and Airforce and the Army would quickly beat a retreat. All over in a matter of days.
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Olddog
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Wed Apr 05, 2017 6:42 am

It is nice to play war games in your head. You may want to have a reality check and realize that:
- Spain did not say they were going to invade Gibraltar
- The ones that are playing war games are Lord Howard and your stupid press
- Have a look at geography and realize that French airspace and Portuguese airspace would be forbidden to UK air force in that case.

The only thing that Spain is trying to obtain in reality (and they have the full support of the EU) is that Gibraltar stops to act like a bloodsucker on Spain fiscal and health systems.
 
olle
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:07 am

This must be seen from the development last week after A50 was declared. Until now the UK and Brexit has been negotiating and presenting the EU - UK relationship without major answer from the EU at least that the UK press has been listening to.

Now since last week things changes, because the Eu starts to define their answer and all of it is not in line with what Brexit has presented to the UK people.

1. Negotiation about Divorce before any trade deal.
2. UK start to realize that the "non democtratic" will need to accept the deal thru around 30 parlaments, and the chance to get thru a blue White and Read Brexit agreement with Eu27 is depending on each of the EU27 nations from now on with a tight time schedule.
3. Gibraltar is not UK as I understand it so what the surprise?

So as I understand it Gibraltar gets its revenue from gambling IT services, selling booze and cigarettes to Spain and tourists. As I understand it this will probably anyway end, with Ganbling It companies going to Malta, and EU citizen cannot bring unlimited volumes of product into EU from 2019.

Gibraltar / UK citizens using medical services in spain and other EU27 countries should anyway end from 2019 when they will eb forced to pay for their services anyway.

Am I wrong?
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:26 am

Olddog wrote:
- Have a look at geography and realize that French airspace and Portuguese airspace would be forbidden to UK air force in that case.


Since Britain and Portugal are NATO members, Spain attacking Gibraltar would mean Portugal would be under an obligation to help us if we invoked Article 5 of the NATO charter. That's not even starting on the fact Britain and Portugal have an alliance that stretches back over 600 years.

But since Spain isn't going to invade Gibraltar, I don't think we need to worry about such things.
 
Pyrex
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:51 am

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
Since Britain and Portugal are NATO members, Spain attacking Gibraltar would mean Portugal would be under an obligation to help us if we invoked Article 5 of the NATO charter. That's not even starting on the fact Britain and Portugal have an alliance that stretches back over 600 years.


Forget about NATO, there is no way in hell Portugal will close off its airspace to the British if they needed it to defend Gibraltar (not that they would likely need it, as they could just blast their way through Spanish airspace and save some fuel), just as we allowed the British fleet to refuel / replenish during the Falklands. That alliance you mention (the oldest in the world, btw) really is the jist of it - if neither Napoleon nor Hitler could force us to choke off British access to the mainland during a time of crisis, it sure as hell won't be the EU doing it,
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
P1aneMad
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:01 pm

Zkpilot wrote:
P1aneMad wrote:
Just for argument's sake, short of using nuclear weapons how exactly would the UK defend Gibraltar in an imaginary war with Spain?

The RN is about 3x as powerful as Spain's Navy and is in a better state of readiness.
The RAF is also about 3x as powerful as Spain's navy.
Ditto the Army.
And that is not including nukes (not that the UK would ever likely use them against Spain).

So with the RN defending Gibraltar from the sea and the RAF dominating the air over Spain that just leaves the Army - and well there is only one land access point which is within range of naval guns and/or air strikes.
Despite French animosity to the British over the centuries I really do think they would be wanting to stay out of it completely so Spain would be by itself. It wouldn't have a huge effect on the rest of the EU. We wouldn't be talking total war either - literally the UK would take out most of Spain's Navy and Airforce and the Army would quickly beat a retreat. All over in a matter of days.

I have read some delusional shιt on a.net, yours is among the best!
No, the RN is not three times larger than the Spanish navy.
Neither is the RAF thee times larger than the Spanish Air force.
And Army wise they are about equal with the Spaniards having better tanks. Which is a moot pointy cause the Britsh ground forces would be unable to land anywhere near Gibraltar or Spain for that matter.

How exactly is the RAF going to achieve air superiority over Spain, let alone its southernmost tip, Gibraltar? What is their loitering time without refueling?
Also I suppose you are counting the Tornadoes in the aircraft inventory that will actually fight an air war and win it too? LOL!
What about the Spanish SAM batteries?
And how on earth will the Royal navy defend itself without air cover so far away from its home port? Reality is that if the Spaniards decide to walk in and take over Gibraltar they can do just that. Geography dictates the the UK can not do much about it other than losing a major part of its armed forces trying to recapture it or defend it in the first place.
So quit hallucinating and let the adults find some common ground.
 
P1aneMad
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Wed Apr 05, 2017 2:10 pm

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
Since Britain and Portugal are NATO members, Spain attacking Gibraltar would mean Portugal would be under an obligation to help us if we invoked Article 5 of the NATO charter. That's not even starting on the fact Britain and Portugal have an alliance that stretches back over 600 years.

But since Spain isn't going to invade Gibraltar, I don't think we need to worry about such things.


Spain is also a NATO member so you can forget about article 5. The rest of NATO does not interfere when two NATO members go at it. Also I highly doubt Portugal will take the side of Britain against Spain who it shares a land border with AND the rest of the EU.
Sorry guys, this is the 21st century and the UK is nowhere near what it used to be in the 19th. Get with the times.
 
LAH1
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:18 pm

P1aneMad wrote:
Zkpilot wrote:
P1aneMad wrote:
Just for argument's sake, short of using nuclear weapons how exactly would the UK defend Gibraltar in an imaginary war with Spain?

The RN is about 3x as powerful as Spain's Navy and is in a better state of readiness.
The RAF is also about 3x as powerful as Spain's navy.
Ditto the Army.
And that is not including nukes (not that the UK would ever likely use them against Spain).

So with the RN defending Gibraltar from the sea and the RAF dominating the air over Spain that just leaves the Army - and well there is only one land access point which is within range of naval guns and/or air strikes.
Despite French animosity to the British over the centuries I really do think they would be wanting to stay out of it completely so Spain would be by itself. It wouldn't have a huge effect on the rest of the EU. We wouldn't be talking total war either - literally the UK would take out most of Spain's Navy and Airforce and the Army would quickly beat a retreat. All over in a matter of days.

I have read some delusional shιt on a.net, yours is among the best!
No, the RN is not three times larger than the Spanish navy.
Neither is the RAF thee times larger than the Spanish Air force.
And Army wise they are about equal with the Spaniards having better tanks. Which is a moot pointy cause the Britsh ground forces would be unable to land anywhere near Gibraltar or Spain for that matter.

How exactly is the RAF going to achieve air superiority over Spain, let alone its southernmost tip, Gibraltar? What is their loitering time without refueling?
Also I suppose you are counting the Tornadoes in the aircraft inventory that will actually fight an air war and win it too? LOL!
What about the Spanish SAM batteries?
And how on earth will the Royal navy defend itself without air cover so far away from its home port? Reality is that if the Spaniards decide to walk in and take over Gibraltar they can do just that. Geography dictates the the UK can not do much about it other than losing a major part of its armed forces trying to recapture it or defend it in the first place.
So quit hallucinating and let the adults find some common ground.


Although the point is moot as it won't happen, to answer your question We'd win simply because that's what we tend to do. Normally outnumbered and with fewer arms too. Come on, when's the last time Spain won anything - including the Eurovision Song Contest?
 
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seahawk
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Wed Apr 05, 2017 4:46 pm

Funny is that people really talk about this intentional distraction by British politicians. And it gets worse and worse each day, what the EU parliament decided today is a slap in the face of Brexit supporters thinking that the EU will make the Uk a better deal than what they got when they were a member. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39501866
 
LupineChemist
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Wed Apr 05, 2017 5:32 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
The point of Gibraltar was for the British to have control of the Mediterranean with the rock in the west, and Suez Canal in the east. If Putin does become as militaristic as the West thinks, I'd rather have the Brits defending the Straight than the Spanish if the Black Sea fleet ever stops by.

If Spain does start hostilities toward the UK over Gibraltar (which they won't) it would be disastrous for them. It would be as Sacha Barron Cohen said in Talladega Knights, "Your injury is one of ignorance and pride."


Why do you think the US has a Navy base in Rota?
 
P1aneMad
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:36 pm

LAH1 wrote:
P1aneMad wrote:
Zkpilot wrote:
The RN is about 3x as powerful as Spain's Navy and is in a better state of readiness.
The RAF is also about 3x as powerful as Spain's navy.
Ditto the Army.
And that is not including nukes (not that the UK would ever likely use them against Spain).

So with the RN defending Gibraltar from the sea and the RAF dominating the air over Spain that just leaves the Army - and well there is only one land access point which is within range of naval guns and/or air strikes.
Despite French animosity to the British over the centuries I really do think they would be wanting to stay out of it completely so Spain would be by itself. It wouldn't have a huge effect on the rest of the EU. We wouldn't be talking total war either - literally the UK would take out most of Spain's Navy and Airforce and the Army would quickly beat a retreat. All over in a matter of days.

I have read some delusional shιt on a.net, yours is among the best!
No, the RN is not three times larger than the Spanish navy.
Neither is the RAF thee times larger than the Spanish Air force.
And Army wise they are about equal with the Spaniards having better tanks. Which is a moot pointy cause the Britsh ground forces would be unable to land anywhere near Gibraltar or Spain for that matter.

How exactly is the RAF going to achieve air superiority over Spain, let alone its southernmost tip, Gibraltar? What is their loitering time without refueling?
Also I suppose you are counting the Tornadoes in the aircraft inventory that will actually fight an air war and win it too? LOL!
What about the Spanish SAM batteries?
And how on earth will the Royal navy defend itself without air cover so far away from its home port? Reality is that if the Spaniards decide to walk in and take over Gibraltar they can do just that. Geography dictates the the UK can not do much about it other than losing a major part of its armed forces trying to recapture it or defend it in the first place.
So quit hallucinating and let the adults find some common ground.


Although the point is moot as it won't happen, to answer your question We'd win simply because that's what we tend to do. Normally outnumbered and with fewer arms too. Come on, when's the last time Spain won anything - including the Eurovision Song Contest?

Seriously, how old are you? 15?
 
LJ
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Wed Apr 05, 2017 7:58 pm

olle wrote:
1. Negotiation about Divorce before any trade deal.

To be fair, officiallly it will start when there is ample progress on the divorce settlement and the UK agrees to the formula which calculates the amount the UK has to pay the EU.

olle wrote:
2. UK start to realize that the "non democtratic" will need to accept the deal thru around 30 parlaments, and the chance to get thru a blue White and Read Brexit agreement with Eu27 is depending on each of the EU27 nations from now on with a tight time schedule.

Add to this a possible referendum in The Netherlands and you're not making the deadline
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:10 pm

P1aneMad wrote:
Sorry guys, this is the 21st century and the UK is nowhere near what it used to be in the 19th. Get with the times.


It's our friends in Spain who are acting like it's the 19th century you'll find.

Youth unemployment at 41.1% and you want to act tough over a piece of land you gave up over 300 years ago. Dear me.

https://www.statista.com/statistics/266 ... countries/
 
vc10
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:42 pm

This topic has got completely out of hand , and I have never read so much drivel.
First of all Gibraltar has been a sore point with the Spanish for decades , and Spain regularly makes threats against Gibraltar
Secondly when Spain joined the EU one of the provisions she had to accept was to keep the Gib /Spanish border open, and so if Gib leaves the EU along
with the UK Spain can strike out that demand
Thirdly As the main reason we are told for the EU existence is to bring peace to Europe I can hardly see them supporting one of it's members attacking
another territory.
Finally so far both sides have set out what they hope from Brexit negotiations , but nobody in their right mind believes either side is going to get
everything they want.

So let us stop all this ridiculous war games speculation
little vc10 .
 
LAH1
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:03 pm

P1aneMad wrote:
LAH1 wrote:
P1aneMad wrote:
I have read some delusional shιt on a.net, yours is among the best!
No, the RN is not three times larger than the Spanish navy.
Neither is the RAF thee times larger than the Spanish Air force.
And Army wise they are about equal with the Spaniards having better tanks. Which is a moot pointy cause the Britsh ground forces would be unable to land anywhere near Gibraltar or Spain for that matter.

How exactly is the RAF going to achieve air superiority over Spain, let alone its southernmost tip, Gibraltar? What is their loitering time without refueling?
Also I suppose you are counting the Tornadoes in the aircraft inventory that will actually fight an air war and win it too? LOL!
What about the Spanish SAM batteries?
And how on earth will the Royal navy defend itself without air cover so far away from its home port? Reality is that if the Spaniards decide to walk in and take over Gibraltar they can do just that. Geography dictates the the UK can not do much about it other than losing a major part of its armed forces trying to recapture it or defend it in the first place.
So quit hallucinating and let the adults find some common ground.


Although the point is moot as it won't happen, to answer your question We'd win simply because that's what we tend to do. Normally outnumbered and with fewer arms too. Come on, when's the last time Spain won anything - including the Eurovision Song Contest?

Seriously, how old are you? 15?


Seriously, how much history have you read?
 
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Aesma
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:11 pm

LAH1 wrote:
Although the point is moot as it won't happen, to answer your question We'd win simply because that's what we tend to do. Normally outnumbered and with fewer arms too. Come on, when's the last time Spain won anything - including the Eurovision Song Contest?


Gibraltar is a small piece of land surrounded by water and Spain. Spain won't invade because it wouldn't make sense, but the only way for the UK to take it back would not be in Gibraltar itself, but rather by attacking Madrid and Barcelona and force Spain into a ceasefire. It wouldn't be a pretty fight.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
LAH1
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Wed Apr 05, 2017 9:33 pm

I did think my reference to the song contest made it look pretty clear i wasn't being entirely serious, but then we do have a distinct sense of humour over here.....then again, when did we last lose a war? I know the Dutch got up the Thames (in the 17th century I think) .
 
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Zkpilot
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:02 pm

P1aneMad wrote:
Zkpilot wrote:
P1aneMad wrote:
Just for argument's sake, short of using nuclear weapons how exactly would the UK defend Gibraltar in an imaginary war with Spain?

The RN is about 3x as powerful as Spain's Navy and is in a better state of readiness.
The RAF is also about 3x as powerful as Spain's navy.
Ditto the Army.
And that is not including nukes (not that the UK would ever likely use them against Spain).

So with the RN defending Gibraltar from the sea and the RAF dominating the air over Spain that just leaves the Army - and well there is only one land access point which is within range of naval guns and/or air strikes.
Despite French animosity to the British over the centuries I really do think they would be wanting to stay out of it completely so Spain would be by itself. It wouldn't have a huge effect on the rest of the EU. We wouldn't be talking total war either - literally the UK would take out most of Spain's Navy and Airforce and the Army would quickly beat a retreat. All over in a matter of days.

I have read some delusional shιt on a.net, yours is among the best!
No, the RN is not three times larger than the Spanish navy.
Neither is the RAF thee times larger than the Spanish Air force.
And Army wise they are about equal with the Spaniards having better tanks. Which is a moot pointy cause the Britsh ground forces would be unable to land anywhere near Gibraltar or Spain for that matter.

How exactly is the RAF going to achieve air superiority over Spain, let alone its southernmost tip, Gibraltar? What is their loitering time without refueling?
Also I suppose you are counting the Tornadoes in the aircraft inventory that will actually fight an air war and win it too? LOL!
What about the Spanish SAM batteries?
And how on earth will the Royal navy defend itself without air cover so far away from its home port? Reality is that if the Spaniards decide to walk in and take over Gibraltar they can do just that. Geography dictates the the UK can not do much about it other than losing a major part of its armed forces trying to recapture it or defend it in the first place.
So quit hallucinating and let the adults find some common ground.

I didn't say it was 3x larger I said it was 3x more powerful - there is a difference. Spain for the most part has relatively basic ships in it's Navy versus the UK having very high tech powerful ships (including multiple larger destroyers) with reduced radar cross-sections etc. That's not including the more numerous submarines which are also superior in technology and power.
The RAF does have a larger number of fighter and attack aircraft (and of course is starting to receive the F-35 - which while flawed is still up there with the EF) The RAF also has tankers and AWACS platforms.
Spain's SAM defences aren't particularly extensive (and with stealth aircraft like the F35 shouldn't pose a problem). Of course the other thing is a few pre-emptive missile strikes on Spanish Air Force bases helps resolve the issue very quickly too.
Spain just isn't that far away from the UK especially with tankers available.

Don't get me wrong, there would be no real winners out of this and it would certainly cost the UK dearly in damage/lives lost in it's military, however Spain would definitely come out of a conflict far worse off.
57 types. 38 countries. 24 airlines.
 
Bostrom
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Wed Apr 05, 2017 10:59 pm

LAH1 wrote:
I did think my reference to the song contest made it look pretty clear i wasn't being entirely serious, but then we do have a distinct sense of humour over here.....


Given the heated debate and the verbal shots fired by Farage and Howard among others, a " :) " or similar might be useful to show that you are not entirely serious. No matter what happens in the negotiations, UK will still be close to the EU geographically and we need to be able to remain friends.

LAH1 wrote:
then again, when did we last lose a war? I know the Dutch got up the Thames (in the 17th century I think) .


In 1976

Regarding Spain, at least they won the Football world cup in 2010… How is the English football team doing? :)
 
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Dano1977
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Wed Apr 05, 2017 11:14 pm

Aesma wrote:
LAH1 wrote:
Although the point is moot as it won't happen, to answer your question We'd win simply because that's what we tend to do. Normally outnumbered and with fewer arms too. Come on, when's the last time Spain won anything - including the Eurovision Song Contest?


Gibraltar is a small piece of land surrounded by water and Spain. Spain won't invade because it wouldn't make sense, but the only way for the UK to take it back would not be in Gibraltar itself, but rather by attacking Madrid and Barcelona and force Spain into a ceasefire. It wouldn't be a pretty fight.


Yeah, a Tomahawk cruise missile launched from an Astute Submarine hurtling down Calle de Juan Bravo would be an eye opener...
Children should only be allowed on aircraft if 1. Muzzled and heavily sedated 2. Go as freight
 
Pyrex
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:27 am

P1aneMad wrote:
Also I highly doubt Portugal will take the side of Britain against Spain who it shares a land border with


Oh, you mean like we did in 1762 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_i ... ugal_(1762) ) and 1807 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_ ... ugal_(1807) )? Or like in 1943, when we allowed the British to use our bases while Franco was cowering in fear of Hitler?
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
BestWestern
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:41 am

I'm waiting for the bigots to suggest nukes.
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Thu Apr 06, 2017 4:56 am

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
P1aneMad wrote:
Sorry guys, this is the 21st century and the UK is nowhere near what it used to be in the 19th. Get with the times.


It's our friends in Spain who are acting like it's the 19th century you'll find.



Seriously, the idea of a Spanish invasion in the aftermath of the Brexit was born in London and London only. And imho it was a simple reaction to forgetting Gibraltar in the letter to the EU and being outmanoeuvred by the Spanish in diplomacy, with Spain having a Veto power over the future status of Gibraltar, which btw. is actually just a simple solution by the EU, because it reduces this to a bi-lateral discussion, instead of involving the whole EU. Spain would have a Veto power anyway, as the parliament will have to agree to any Brexit treaty. It is just like Ireland will have a Veto over any future status of Northern Ireland.
 
P1aneMad
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Thu Apr 06, 2017 5:50 am

LAH1 wrote:
P1aneMad wrote:
LAH1 wrote:

Although the point is moot as it won't happen, to answer your question We'd win simply because that's what we tend to do. Normally outnumbered and with fewer arms too. Come on, when's the last time Spain won anything - including the Eurovision Song Contest?

Seriously, how old are you? 15?


Seriously, how much history have you read?

A lot unlike you.
Enough to know that what Drake did to the Spanish armada 400+ years ago has exactly ZERO relevance to today's world order and in particular on how armed conflicts are played out.

Pyrex wrote:
P1aneMad wrote:
Also I highly doubt Portugal will take the side of Britain against Spain who it shares a land border with


Oh, you mean like we did in 1762 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_i ... ugal_(1762) ) and 1807 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_ ... ugal_(1807) )? Or like in 1943, when we allowed the British to use our bases while Franco was cowering in fear of Hitler?

LOL!
1762? You guys are truly delusional! The word is not going back to the days of the Empire. Get used to it. Past histories do not fight wars. Equipment, geography and strategic alliances do.
What does your government think of siding with the UK in a possible conflict with Spain? Yeah, they would laugh you out of the country for even suggesting that.

Getting all excited by political has-beens like M. Howard is plain dumb.
Spain is getting veto power on all future affairs regarding Gibraltar by all 27 member states of the EU. So get with the program and act like adults.
 
JJJ
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:31 am

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
P1aneMad wrote:
Sorry guys, this is the 21st century and the UK is nowhere near what it used to be in the 19th. Get with the times.


It's our friends in Spain who are acting like it's the 19th century you'll find.


I'm sure you have actual quotes for that? Because from this end it looks like Spain got the upper hand diplomatically (as it should, you can't leave the club and pretend to use the swimming pool) and everyone to the right of Mrs. May started throwing the toys out of the pram.
 
Olddog
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Thu Apr 06, 2017 6:35 am

I think, reading UK newspaper online, that the same that pushed for brexit are now pushing for the hardest brexit. By trying to offend every single nation in the EU, they hope to make any deal rejected it seems.
 
LAH1
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Thu Apr 06, 2017 7:34 am

P1aneMad wrote:
LAH1 wrote:
P1aneMad wrote:
Seriously, how old are you? 15?


Seriously, how much history have you read?

A lot unlike you.
Enough to know that what Drake did to the Spanish armada 400+ years ago has exactly ZERO relevance to today's world order and in particular on how armed conflicts are played out.

Pyrex wrote:
P1aneMad wrote:
Also I highly doubt Portugal will take the side of Britain against Spain who it shares a land border with


Oh, you mean like we did in 1762 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_i ... ugal_(1762) ) and 1807 ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invasion_ ... ugal_(1807) )? Or like in 1943, when we allowed the British to use our bases while Franco was cowering in fear of Hitler?

LOL!
1762? You guys are truly delusional! The word is not going back to the days of the Empire. Get used to it. Past histories do not fight wars. Equipment, geography and strategic alliances do.
What does your government think of siding with the UK in a possible conflict with Spain? Yeah, they would laugh you out of the country for even suggesting that.

Getting all excited by political has-beens like M. Howard is plain dumb.
Spain is getting veto power on all future affairs regarding Gibraltar by all 27 member states of the EU. So get with the program and act like adults.


Well I hate to labour the point but as it was you who got personal with the 15 yr old bit, in your history books when did the UK last lose a war ?(yeah not the cod one, that was a bit fishy) because that was the point I was making, albeit not entirely seriously. You simply came back with a "that's not relevant any more". It may or may not be, but at least mine is fact not opinion.
But Britain has lost wars. It did lose the American War of Independence (though yes, the largest ethnic group among the rebels were English themselves) and it did lose the Irish War of Independence (1919-21), in the years following WW1 in which Britain had lost more than a million men and was exhausted and war-sick. But later it effectively got the IRA to give up fighting for Northern Ireland by the 1990s .
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:23 am

seahawk wrote:
It is just like Ireland will have a Veto over any future status of Northern Ireland.


Define what you mean by "status". Because if you mean the political status of Northern Ireland actually being a part of the UK, no, Ireland doesn't get a veto on that. The Good Friday Agreement means Ireland recognises NI as part of the UK.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Thu Apr 06, 2017 10:42 am

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
It is just like Ireland will have a Veto over any future status of Northern Ireland.


Define what you mean by "status". Because if you mean the political status of Northern Ireland actually being a part of the UK, no, Ireland doesn't get a veto on that. The Good Friday Agreement means Ireland recognises NI as part of the UK.


Obviously any changes post Brexit. Like freedom of movement, freedom of trade, etc.
 
JJJ
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:34 am

seahawk wrote:
UltimoTiger777 wrote:
seahawk wrote:
It is just like Ireland will have a Veto over any future status of Northern Ireland.


Define what you mean by "status". Because if you mean the political status of Northern Ireland actually being a part of the UK, no, Ireland doesn't get a veto on that. The Good Friday Agreement means Ireland recognises NI as part of the UK.


Obviously any changes post Brexit. Like freedom of movement, freedom of trade, etc.


There seems to be a common misunderstanding there (possible deliberate, and very likely media-induced).

The EU declaration which mentions NI, Gibraltar and Cypriot bases makes absolutely no mention of sovereignty. It only gives the respective EU member (RoIreland, Spain and Cyprus) a veto on how the EU-UK deal works in those specific land borders.

But of course once certain members of the British political class saw "Gibraltar" on an EU document it was an immediate patriotic fervour frenzy from the usual suspects (with tabloid media rubbing their hands in glee)

The whole taking it in stride, stiff upper lip and keeping calm and carry on was probably eliminated through some obscure EU regulation a few years back.
 
Pyrex
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:08 pm

P1aneMad wrote:
1762? You guys are truly delusional! The word is not going back to the days of the Empire. Get used to it. Past histories do not fight wars. Equipment, geography and strategic alliances do.


And Portugal has stood by its alliance even at moments in time when it was much worse off. 1762 was just 7 short years after Portugal had been absolutely decimated by one of the most destructive earthquakes in recorded human history. The country was in complete shambles, which our dear Spanish friends, as usual throughout history, just saw as an opportunity to invade. They thought it was going to be a walk in the park, and ended up having their asses handed to them, with the helping hand of the British,

P1aneMad wrote:
What does your government think of siding with the UK in a possible conflict with Spain? Yeah, they would laugh you out of the country for even suggesting that.


Here is what Winston Churchill had to say when he reported on the lease of the bases in the Azores to the House of Commons during World War II.

"I have an announcement", I said, "to make to the House arising out of the treaty signed between this country and Portugal in the year 1373 between His Majesty King Edward III and King Ferdinand and Queen Eleanor of Portugal."[1] I spoke in a level voice, and made a pause to allow the House to take in the date, 1373. As this soaked in there was something like a gasp. I do not suppose any such continuity of relations between two Powers has ever been, or will ever be, set forth in the ordinary day-to-day work of British diplomacy.

The treaty is between Portugal and England, not between any specific, current Portuguese government and its contemporary British counterpart.

Spain will lose Catalunya before the UK's hold on Gibraltar is at risk. Not to mention that suddenly losing all that inflow of British tourists and expats would destroy the Spanish economy. But the fact that you think Portugal would just be a vassal state of yours as you got you ass handed to you by the Brits, again, is well indicative of the mindset of people like you, and a warning to those obliviously blind that, despite all the EU "progress", certain things never do change.
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Derico
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Thu Apr 06, 2017 12:46 pm

This thread makes me think of two gangs on the street shouting back at each other their list of exploits and achievements.

Gang A: "We were the ones that assaulted the old grannies by the park last night, you were a bunch of yellows!"
Gang B: "Oh yeah, and where were you when we set fire to the homeless center and barricaded the door, you --sies!!"
Gang A: "We were doing more productive things like selling to the kids the new toys..."

I would be utterly ashamed if a source of pride would be recounting all the wars and acts of aggression and oppression my country started.

The British Empire and the Spanish Empire were two of the worst developments in humans history, causing tens of millions of deaths, intentional and not, tens of millions more to be enslaved, entire cultures to be exterminated, countless others to lose their lands. Many of the problems in the world today can still be traced back to the effects of these institutions, as well as those of the French, Dutch, Portuguese, Belgian, German, Italian, Russian, and Danish empires. I never quite understood why Europeans can even find a source of pride in any of it.
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
P1aneMad
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:27 pm

Pyrex wrote:
And Portugal has stood by its alliance even at moments in time when it was much worse off. 1762 was just 7 short years after Portugal had been absolutely decimated by one of the most destructive earthquakes in recorded human history. The country was in complete shambles, which our dear Spanish friends, as usual throughout history, just saw as an opportunity to invade. They thought it was going to be a walk in the park, and ended up having their asses handed to them, with the helping hand of the British

1762?
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! 1762 is 255 long years away from 2017!

Pyrex wrote:
P1aneMad wrote:
What does your government think of siding with the UK in a possible conflict with Spain? Yeah, they would laugh you out of the country for even suggesting that.

Here is what Winston Churchill had to say when he reported on the lease of the bases in the Azores to the House of Commons during World War II.

Churchill and WWII is what you use to interpret the world and realities of 2017?
LOL, there are more delusional people out there than I thought!
Keep them coming!
 
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Aesma
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:29 pm

Portugal's economy has radically changed thanks to the EU. If Portugal had to choose, I wouldn't bet on the UK winning.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
P1aneMad
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Thu Apr 06, 2017 1:40 pm

LAH1 wrote:
Well I hate to labour the point but as it was you who got personal with the 15 yr old bit, in your history books when did the UK last lose a war ?(yeah not the cod one, that was a bit fishy) because that was the point I was making, albeit not entirely seriously. You simply came back with a "that's not relevant any more". It may or may not be, but at least mine is fact not opinion.
But Britain has lost wars. It did lose the American War of Independence (though yes, the largest ethnic group among the rebels were English themselves) and it did lose the Irish War of Independence (1919-21), in the years following WW1 in which Britain had lost more than a million men and was exhausted and war-sick. But later it effectively got the IRA to give up fighting for Northern Ireland by the 1990s .

Which of all your points has any relevance to a possible armed conflict between today's Spain and UK over Gibraltar?
None.
In today's world the UK can not possible defend the rock from a Spanish invasion without using nuclear weapons. It is too far off from the British isles. Today's UK does not have any carriers and its just 14 aerial refueling tankers would be among the first aircraft to be shot down.
 
LAH1
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:01 pm

P1aneMad wrote:
LAH1 wrote:
Well I hate to labour the point but as it was you who got personal with the 15 yr old bit, in your history books when did the UK last lose a war ?(yeah not the cod one, that was a bit fishy) because that was the point I was making, albeit not entirely seriously. You simply came back with a "that's not relevant any more". It may or may not be, but at least mine is fact not opinion.
But Britain has lost wars. It did lose the American War of Independence (though yes, the largest ethnic group among the rebels were English themselves) and it did lose the Irish War of Independence (1919-21), in the years following WW1 in which Britain had lost more than a million men and was exhausted and war-sick. But later it effectively got the IRA to give up fighting for Northern Ireland by the 1990s .

Which of all your points has any relevance to a possible armed conflict between today's Spain and UK over Gibraltar?
None.
In today's world the UK can not possible defend the rock from a Spanish invasion without using nuclear weapons. It is too far off from the British isles. Today's UK does not have any carriers and its just 14 aerial refueling tankers would be among the first aircraft to be shot down.


OK. Have it your way. Neither of us is right as nothing has happened or is likely to. But history does tell you something about the future if you open your eyes wide enough.
 
P1aneMad
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:40 pm

LAH1 wrote:

OK. Have it your way. Neither of us is right as nothing has happened or is likely to. But history does tell you something about the future if you open your eyes wide enough.

It isn't "my way" but military, geographic and strategic realities.
Past glories and accomplishments have zero input on a future conflict.
 
PanzerPowner
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Thu Apr 06, 2017 2:58 pm

Bostrom wrote:
JJJ wrote:
seahawk wrote:

I thought it was obvious, when saying the UK could be forced to use the metric system... or drive on the right side of the road...


Gibraltar does drive on the right, though :D


But Gibraltar is not part of the UK :)


Gibraltar 2020 - We're the Hong Kong of Europe with an airport that has expanded to carry 1 747 and not much else. Welcome to Gibraltar, you'll be parked on the mountain due to space constraints.
Well uh, I obviously decided to refine this but i dont know how.
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Thu Apr 06, 2017 8:52 pm

Derico wrote:
The British Empire and the Spanish Empire were two of the worst developments in humans history, causing tens of millions of deaths, intentional and not, tens of millions more to be enslaved, entire cultures to be exterminated, countless others to lose their lands. Many of the problems in the world today can still be traced back to the effects of these institutions, as well as those of the French, Dutch, Portuguese, Belgian, German, Italian, Russian, and Danish empires. I never quite understood why Europeans can even find a source of pride in any of it.


Because we essentially ended up being the harbingers of industrialization and a level of development that has achieved more in a shorter space of time than arguably any over period of history?
 
Derico
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Fri Apr 07, 2017 2:22 am

Well, I still stand on the side that the end don't justify the means. Otherwise, you aren't human anymore. And the scramble for Empire by European nations was in its most basic definition, a process of dehumanization (of anyone not European).
My internet was not shut down, the internet has shut me down
 
olle
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:35 am

This whole thread and the UK governent thru the UK press show perfectly why EU is needed.

We have got used with peace, middle class grow and get it better each year (more or less) since 1945.

The UK press and government fall back to a mentality more similar to 1914 talking about national pride rather then calculate long term damage they are causing day by day.

Thanks lord that we have the EU where governments special the German seems to keep their heads cool and plays the long term game.
 
JJJ
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:56 am

olle wrote:
This whole thread and the UK governent thru the UK press show perfectly why EU is needed.

We have got used with peace, middle class grow and get it better each year (more or less) since 1945.

The UK press and government fall back to a mentality more similar to 1914 talking about national pride rather then calculate long term damage they are causing day by day.


While the UK media continues whipping the masses into a war frenzy.

Image

Mrs. May puts free movement on the table again.

Image

How convenient is to have the most vocal Brexit proponents foaming at some imagined aggression while the government are at work erasing those red lines. Taking back control indeed.

I thought I'd never see the day where Spain would take something like this better than the UK, but here it is.
 
Pyrex
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Fri Apr 07, 2017 11:53 am

Aesma wrote:
If Portugal had to choose, I wouldn't bet on the UK winning.


You would not be the first (nor the second) Frenchman to make that same mistake. There was another, notorious one - short fellow, liked to stick his hand in his jacket. Hailed from Corsica, I believe. Has a massive tomb in the middle of Paris where he is worshiped by thousands of people a day despite all the death and destruction he brought on Europe, with statues that remind you of Putin riding a horse shirtless.

It is true that when it comes to many facets of daily life, Portugal does tend to follow the French lead more than the English one, unfortunately - that is why our judicial system is so incompetent, our bureaucracy so overbearing and unaccountable, and why our politicians like to exile themselves in Paris and pretend to attend the Sorbonne whenever they have committed a crime and are fleeing the country. But when push comes to shove, we know who our true allies really are, and would not go along with Continental Blockade redux.

We have for the most part, throughout history, tried to stay away, often successfully, from the kind of shenanigans that befit Continental Europe periodically, and really focus our eyes on the Atlantic. But whenever that kind of bullshit comes knocking on our door, as it often does, we know where to turn.
Read this very carefully, I shall write this only once!
 
Olddog
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Fri Apr 07, 2017 1:55 pm

Napoleon seriously ? Don't you have some example past half century or since Portugal joined the EU ?

Knowing history is useful, but you need to update your knowledge....
 
VSMUT
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:55 pm

Jeez, so many seem to ignore the fact that it is the British who are screaming about war, not Spain. But ok, lets play along:

Zkpilot wrote:
I didn't say it was 3x larger I said it was 3x more powerful - there is a difference. Spain for the most part has relatively basic ships in it's Navy versus the UK having very high tech powerful ships (including multiple larger destroyers) with reduced radar cross-sections etc. That's not including the more numerous submarines which are also superior in technology and power.


You might want to update your knowledge on this topic.

The Royal Navy only has 6x Type 45 air defence destroyers, which are world famous for having serious problems with breakdowns in warm waters (such as those around Gibraltar). They can deploy only 1, at the most 2 at a time. They also have 13 elderly frigates which have very limited air defence capabilities. From 2018 onwards they won't even have Harpoon missiles any more.

In comparison the Spanish Navy has 5 of the extremely potent Alvaro de Bazan class AEGIS destroyers, a ship so capable that even Australia brought it. And unlike the Type 45s, they actually work. They also have 6 older Perry class frigates, but even those are more capable than the British frigates, and are still very capable air defence ships. Spain also has the advantage of operating from home, unlike the British fleet would. Spain also has an operation aircraft carrier complete with Harriers, unlike the UK... :duck:
Spain also has the ability to strike the British fleet from air through the use of F/A-18s and P-3s firing Harpoons.

The RN does indeed have some very formidable nuclear submarines, but anybody with a basic knowledge about submarine warfare knows that diesel-electrics are superior boats. Even the crew of the HMS Conqueror were terrified that they were going to run into one of Argentinas WWII-era Gato Balao's back in 1982. A nuclear boat has greater endurance, size and speed, but thats about it. A diesel-electric is significantly more silent, which is what matters the most when it comes to detecting a submarine. In this case, you would even be playing to the diesel-electrics advantage, since it would be on the defence.

Finally, the British fleet would be operating very far from home. It would be overly dependent on it's supply ships.


Zkpilot wrote:
The RAF does have a larger number of fighter and attack aircraft (and of course is starting to receive the F-35 - which while flawed is still up there with the EF) The RAF also has tankers and AWACS platforms.


Which is insignificant. The RAF would be operating strikes in the length of 5000 km. At those distances, one tanker might be able to drag a single fighter down and back again (and even that seems optimistic). With just 14 tankers in the RAF, they would be able to bring only 14 aircraft to the fight at a time. Now they might be able to increase that to 28 assuming they overflew Spanish airspace on the way to Gibraltar, but that would risk losing the tankers on the way, dooming all the fighters and preventing future sorties.
The F-35 isn't going to be operational for a while either. Britain will be long gone from the EU before that dog is ever operational.


Zkpilot wrote:
Spain's SAM defences aren't particularly extensive (and with stealth aircraft like the F35 shouldn't pose a problem). Of course the other thing is a few pre-emptive missile strikes on Spanish Air Force bases helps resolve the issue very quickly too.
Spain just isn't that far away from the UK especially with tankers available.


Spain has NASAMS, which is the latest SAM system deployed by any NATO member. They also have Patriots and ASPIDE 2000s, both of which are very capable missiles. All 3 systems are highly mobile, and if deployed competently, can't really be targeted by fighters like you suggest. And as mentioned above, you don't have to kill the fighters, just the tankers on which the fighters are 100% reliant on.

As with everything in this scenario, Spain doesn't have to engage the British forces directly in combat in order to win. All they have to do is to defeat the British logistical chain which is very brittle and vulnerable. All of this also ignores that fact that Spain could probably overrun and fortify Gibraltar in a day or so, meaning that by the time the British fleet arrives, they have to retake the rock in the face of Spanish defences and support from highly mobile land-based artillery. British landing craft coming ashore would even be subject to attacks by ATGMs launched from ashore. Spain would also have the advantage of heavy armour support, while the British would be limited to infantry. Both side could bring attack helicopters into the fight, but again, the Spanish could deploy loads of MANPADS and other air defences to prevent the British helicopters from taking to the air. Realistically, Spain would also have a complete dominance in the air, and so being able to bomb the British troops from their fighters.

Zkpilot wrote:
however Spain would definitely come out of a conflict far worse off.


No they wouldn't. Militarily, Britain can't realistically do anything that wouldn't cause a massive political fallout in the aftermath, to the benefit of Spain.

planeophilic wrote:
Add to that the 1,000 year old challenge of crossing the English channel, in the face of British Vanguard class submarines, and an army that is not a marching band.


Did you ever bother to take a look at a map? It is the British who will have to cross the Channel this time. And the Bay of Biscay. And unless they want to fight their way all the way through Spain, also the Atlantic ocean.

planeophilic wrote:
The US will then nudge Russia to 'pressurize' and create an Eastern Front. Without US support, Germany and Eastern Europe will have barely any military to cover their own butts from the Bear.


Russia wouldn't intervene. A Spanish annexation of Gibraltar would only serve to legitimize the Russian annexations in Ukraine. They be 100% on the Spanish side...
 
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scbriml
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:17 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Jeez, so many seem to ignore the fact that it is the British who are screaming about war, not Spain.


One has-been politician? :rotfl:

Some perspective wouldn't go amiss in this thread. :banghead:
Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana!
There are 10 types of people in the World - those that understand binary and those that don't.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Fri Apr 07, 2017 10:19 pm

scbriml wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Jeez, so many seem to ignore the fact that it is the British who are screaming about war, not Spain.


One has-been politician? :rotfl:

Some perspective wouldn't go amiss in this thread. :banghead:


One alternative-facts newspaper as well, by the looks of it...
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:04 am

You know this could all very easily be resolved if Spain just gave up its claim to Gibraltar.
 
Olddog
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Re: Spain threatens Gibraltar post Brexit, UK reminds them of Falklands...

Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:41 am

And more easily resolved by closing the borders with Gibraltar after Brexit :P

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