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alberchico
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What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:48 pm

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... don-bridge

Fascinating article. I had no idea so many protocols and rules have to be followed when that day comes.
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einsteinboricua
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:15 pm

I wonder if Prince Charles will abdicate his position in favor of Prince William. Seems that in this day and age, the nation could and should be led by someone who has grown to see these changes first hand, not someone who was born in a different era. Charles could offer counsel in the background if needed.
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KLDC10
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Thu Mar 16, 2017 11:54 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
I wonder if Prince Charles will abdicate his position in favor of Prince William. Seems that in this day and age, the nation could and should be led by someone who has grown to see these changes first hand, not someone who was born in a different era. Charles could offer counsel in the background if needed.


Unlikely. The British Royal Family is incredibly traditional - for example, it has not succumbed to the abdication trend among European monarchs, which has seen Queen Beatrix of the Netherlands abdicate in favor of her son, King Willem-Alexander, among others (including King Juan Carlos of Spain). Prince Charles will be declared King almost immediately following his mother's death - as far as I'm aware, there is no mechanism (and certainly no precedent) for him to refuse his duty in the aftermath of his mother's death.

Also, perhaps Prince Charles was born in a different era, but he has been preparing to be King his entire life. Britain, and indeed the world, expect that he will be King, and that he will serve his country and the commonwealth as is his birthright. Let's not forget that he will also be King of Canada, Australia and New Zealand among others - all of whom expect him to serve. There is no need to skip over Prince Charles in favor of Prince William for the sake of modernity - the British Royal Family is by nature old-fashioned and traditional; the likelihood of the issue of modernity entering into any decision to abdicate is highly unlikely.
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ltbewr
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Fri Mar 17, 2017 1:50 am

I read the article in the OP (and read another on the same subject a year or so ago). I was in the UK, including London, just after the Queen Mother died in 2002 so got to see some of that, including here passage from one site for viewing by the public to another.
Charles will take the Throne, as the article notes, there will be some issues as to Camilla being the Queen to the King. I don't think Charles as King will be as well loved as is the Queen, but he has waited a long time and is ready to take the job.
To me the biggest problems will be the massive live crowds, especially in London, the massive anti-terrorism security and how to juggle the various heads of state - including unfortunately if it happens during our President Trump's term of office. I also hope that instead of over the top millions of UK pounds spent on flowers, etc that the public did with the Queen Mother and Princess Diana in their funeral time, that instead spend that money on community projects or help with the poor in the Queen's honor.
 
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:03 am

"The Queen is dead, long live The King" Will be a very sad time in the UK and for much of The Commonwealth.
Camilla won't become Queen (consort) but Charlie will be fairly old himself by the time he's on the throne so William is probably only going to have to wait about 20 years.
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Fri Mar 17, 2017 5:13 am

Zkpilot wrote:
Camilla won't become Queen (consort)


Will too. Article said.

For some reason the part of the article that really stuck with me was the description of what the BBC's going to do. In America of course people turn to different networks/stations when there's a major national story breaking; the thought that just about everyone in Britain when the story breaks will be tuned to the same broadcast, sobered at first by the "This is the BBC from London" announcement - bespeaks a kind of national unity that I don't think we know in the States.
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:10 am

Just a point of order: 'The Queen' means different things to different people. QEII is not my 'the queen', and neither is she for the vast majority of people on this planet.

But what will happen is fairly simple: She'll be laid to rest and the next in line will take the reigns. England does not have a tradition of the regent abdicating, unlike in the Netherlands, so she'll be warming the throne until she pops her clogs. Which is exactly the same as 'my' Queen is expected to do.
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Redd
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:13 am

I don't see how people can still care about or support monarchies. I'd be interested in someone explaining the reason they do, for me it's and archaic tradition that gives people privilege by birthright, a drain on taxpayers and without any positive use.
 
Airstud
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Fri Mar 17, 2017 9:19 am

Redd wrote:
I don't see how people can still care about or support monarchies. I'd be interested in someone explaining the reason they do, for me it's and archaic tradition that gives people privilege by birthright, a drain on taxpayers and without any positive use.


Drain on taxpayers? As I understand it no taxpayer money goes to the royals; and investment returns on their £6 billion fortune go straight into the UK treasury.
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B777LRF
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Fri Mar 17, 2017 10:56 am

Redd wrote:
I don't see how people can still care about or support monarchies. I'd be interested in someone explaining the reason they do, for me it's and archaic tradition that gives people privilege by birthright, a drain on taxpayers and without any positive use.


In our case it's a thousand year old tradition. We're a constitutional monarchy, which means the monarch has no real powers. The royal familiy is, however, a marketing tool no elected president could ever hope to offer; our regent can and will open doors to our industry that would otherwise remain hermetically closed to any politician. It's also a bit of a fairy tale story, which tourists love and spend a lot of money seeing up close.

As for the cost, it's pretty much on par with what a president would cost. That is, before you add the cost of elections every 4 or 5 years - include that, and you'll find having a monarchy is by far the most sensible thing to have economically.

Best of all, however, is the fact that we'll never have to suffer a buffon such as Trump being head of state.
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:43 am

Airstud wrote:
Redd wrote:
I don't see how people can still care about or support monarchies. I'd be interested in someone explaining the reason they do, for me it's and archaic tradition that gives people privilege by birthright, a drain on taxpayers and without any positive use.


Drain on taxpayers? As I understand it no taxpayer money goes to the royals; and investment returns on their £6 billion fortune go straight into the UK treasury.


Yup, the Treasury makes significantly more from the Crown Estates per year than is paid out to the Crown in the Sovereign Grant:

As the Crown Estate property empire delivered a record £304.1m to Treasury coffers, the sovereign stands to receive £45.6m in 2017-18 – a 6.5% increase on this year’s £42.8m. The amount would represent a 57% increase for the monarch since 2012, when she received £29.1m.


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... eign-grant

The value of that Crown Estate would drop dramatically if the Crown was abolished.
 
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Fri Mar 17, 2017 12:18 pm

moo wrote:
Airstud wrote:
Redd wrote:
I don't see how people can still care about or support monarchies. I'd be interested in someone explaining the reason they do, for me it's and archaic tradition that gives people privilege by birthright, a drain on taxpayers and without any positive use.


Drain on taxpayers? As I understand it no taxpayer money goes to the royals; and investment returns on their £6 billion fortune go straight into the UK treasury.


Yup, the Treasury makes significantly more from the Crown Estates per year than is paid out to the Crown in the Sovereign Grant:

As the Crown Estate property empire delivered a record £304.1m to Treasury coffers, the sovereign stands to receive £45.6m in 2017-18 – a 6.5% increase on this year’s £42.8m. The amount would represent a 57% increase for the monarch since 2012, when she received £29.1m.


https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/201 ... eign-grant

The value of that Crown Estate would drop dramatically if the Crown was abolished.


The crown estate is as the title suggests a collection of properties and land across the UK. The presence of a Monarch does not enhance their value, as they are the properties are let at market rents to major retailers, businesses and farms.

They were surrendered Centuries ago by the Monarch in return for the state picking up the running costs of the Royal Family. In the long term it has proved very lucrative for the public purse.

As to the protocols, the Queen has been on the throne for so long you've got to be in your 70's to have chance to remember the last Monarch's funeral. The only such event I've been around for is Princess Diana's funeral which was held on a Saturday. It appears that The Queen's funeral wll follow a very fixed pattern taking place 10 days after her death, the result will be a national holiday and much rescheduling of workloads. Whilst I have no particular problem with this, I may well end up having to inform people that their own relatives funerals will not now take place on the originally booked date due to a national shutdown of all crematoria and cemeteries. What if the are staunch republicans and not happy about it ? and secondly who pays for the re arrangement, repeating the newspaper announcements etc ?
 
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Fri Mar 17, 2017 2:37 pm

Redd wrote:
I don't see how people can still care about or support monarchies. I'd be interested in someone explaining the reason they do, for me it's and archaic tradition that gives people privilege by birthright, a drain on taxpayers and without any positive use.


Because it's just that, an archaic tradition going back well over a thousand years which is a part of our national identity.

What exactly do we gain by getting rid of it?
 
BenTheGreat97
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Fri Mar 17, 2017 3:14 pm

Once the Queen dies, Canada should get rid of its ties to the monarchy. I don't care for the Queen, and I won't care for a King either.
 
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Fri Mar 17, 2017 4:15 pm

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
Redd wrote:
I don't see how people can still care about or support monarchies. I'd be interested in someone explaining the reason they do, for me it's and archaic tradition that gives people privilege by birthright, a drain on taxpayers and without any positive use.


Because it's just that, an archaic tradition going back well over a thousand years which is a part of our national identity.

What exactly do we gain by getting rid of it?


All citizens being equal in your country ?
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:05 pm

Yes, when the Queen passes, Charles will technically be King. But having him ultimately pass on the duties before a coronation and going straight to William would not surprise me in the least.
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:46 pm

B777LRF wrote:
Just a point of order: 'The Queen' means different things to different people. QEII is not my 'the queen', and neither is she for the vast majority of people on this planet.


Queen Elizabeth is not "my Queen" after but she is the one world leader that I admire more than any other. I've seen her adjust to changing times from the 50's to today and I have seen her service to the Commonwealth over the years , carrying a heavy schedule, and her relationships with those who are her subjects. The Queens also a major asset for the Commonwealth in terms of international relations. Think about it, how many world leaders would rather meet with the Queen as opposed to Trump?

The Queen is also a huge draw for people around the world. We've been to the UK in the past and there are millions of Americans who are there also, and the Queen is one reasons why we spent more time there than other countries.
 
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:55 pm

So if for some Charles passes away (certainly possible since he is 68) before Queen Elizabeth would William assume the throne once the Queen passes on? Also if the Queen passes away before Phillip would Phillip just fade into the background?
 
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:02 pm

Redd wrote:
I don't see how people can still care about or support monarchies. I'd be interested in someone explaining the reason they do, for me it's and archaic tradition that gives people privilege by birthright, a drain on taxpayers and without any positive use.


I agree, but for some people do and see the monarchi as a binding element, at least in The Netherlands. And some people claim that the monarchi helps to take in orders for Dutch business, I don't subscribe to that point to view and with the exception to other monarchies - read Middle East - it isn't supported by numbers either.
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:33 pm

As usual a pissed-up Grauniad hack beats together a story in that terrifying time between the breakfast whiskies and liquid lunch.

Biggest glaring error? One always made by third rate journos with no researchers to correct their bollocks. And it's a biggie.

Charlie won't be King Chas the Third. He will be King George VII, as he wishes to take that name in tribute to his maternal grandfather George VI.

If said hack wanted to write a story of gravitas about Britain and its succession, then maybe getting the basics right might help.
 
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:36 pm

dfwjim1 wrote:
So if for some Charles passes away (certainly possible since he is 68) before Queen Elizabeth would William assume the throne once the Queen passes on? Also if the Queen passes away before Phillip would Phillip just fade into the background?

William is second in line so it'd be him.

Phil the Greek would indeed quietly retire to Royal apartments somewhere. The Crown has access to plenty of property, including various ones around London ferquently used for elderly Royals. He might however prefer Sandringham as he's always been a bit horsey.

I doubt Charles wants him anywhere close. Their relationship has always been reported to be cool at best, frozen bloody stiff at worst
 
Airstud
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Fri Mar 17, 2017 8:45 pm

Aesma wrote:
UltimoTiger777 wrote:
Redd wrote:
I don't see how people can still care about or support monarchies. I'd be interested in someone explaining the reason they do, for me it's and archaic tradition that gives people privilege by birthright, a drain on taxpayers and without any positive use.


Because it's just that, an archaic tradition going back well over a thousand years which is a part of our national identity.

What exactly do we gain by getting rid of it?


All citizens being equal in your country ?


There's no country where that's ever been the case; monarchy or not.
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Fri Mar 17, 2017 11:29 pm

Aesma wrote:

All citizens being equal in your country ?


The abolition of the monarchy or indeed vast tracts of older institutions in the UK won't have any impact on that at all other than to make a few people feel good. Abolishing the monarchy doesn't suddenly improve the life chances of poor white and black boys (statistically two of the worst performing groups in UK schools).
 
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:57 am

A poor boy or girl can hope to become the French head of state. Not in the UK.

edit : correction, a poor British boy or girl can indeed hope to become the French head of state, as there is no need to be born with the French nationality. I meant they can't hope to become the UK's head of state. Unless they plan a revolution. We can help.
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jetwet1
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Sat Mar 18, 2017 6:29 am

stlgph wrote:
Yes, when the Queen passes, Charles will technically be King. But having him ultimately pass on the duties before a coronation and going straight to William would not surprise me in the least.


Charles has said time and gain that he will assume the throne, but as pointed out, he is 68, it won't be a long reign.
 
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:09 am

Aesma wrote:
A poor boy or girl can hope to become the French head of state. Not in the UK.

edit : correction, a poor British boy or girl can indeed hope to become the French head of state, as there is no need to be born with the French nationality. I meant they can't hope to become the UK's head of state. Unless they plan a revolution. We can help.


There are certainly a few heads over here that I'd prefer to be "detached". Thank you for the offer.

(Although to add, anyone from any background can certainly become an M P, and many have.)
 
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:11 am

Redd wrote:
I don't see how people can still care about or support monarchies. I'd be interested in someone explaining the reason they do, for me it's and archaic tradition that gives people privilege by birthright, a drain on taxpayers and without any positive use.


Oh, the myth of the burden to the taxpayer. Just a myth, and so untrue. There is likely not head-of-state on this planet who actually does so much for the income of the state as the british royalty. They cost a few dozen millions (like any boring dark-suited president who on top gets a huge pension after working for a few years), but generate billions of pounds of income for the industry and state each each.
 
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Sat Mar 18, 2017 11:16 am

dfwjim1 wrote:
Also if the Queen passes away before Phillip would Phillip just fade into the background?


"King Pop" ( like Queen Mum .. )
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Aesma
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:17 pm

na wrote:
Redd wrote:
I don't see how people can still care about or support monarchies. I'd be interested in someone explaining the reason they do, for me it's and archaic tradition that gives people privilege by birthright, a drain on taxpayers and without any positive use.


Oh, the myth of the burden to the taxpayer. Just a myth, and so untrue. There is likely not head-of-state on this planet who actually does so much for the income of the state as the british royalty. They cost a few dozen millions (like any boring dark-suited president who on top gets a huge pension after working for a few years), but generate billions of pounds of income for the industry and state each each.


Maintaining the properties alone costs much more than that, cue the Buckingham Palace refurbishment. As for what they bring to the country, I doubt it's simple to estimate.
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GDB
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:41 pm

Someone from a modest background can and has become not the Head Of State of the UK, but Prime Minister - which is where the power lies.
I'd rather live in a nation that has a Constitutional Monarch (the UK, Netherlands, Norway, Belgium, Sweden, Denmark, Spain) that have various forms of health and social provision as opposed to one where 'anyone can be President' but does a lot less in those areas.

Also, the Queen and her successors are essentially symbols, there IS a constitutional role, which includes the oath to serve that to give one example, members of the armed forces take, not to what PM and party is in Downing Street at the time.
The Queen meets her PM usually once a week, the conversation is private, no notes taken, the Monarch can use her long experience with all those previous PM's and other leaders, to 'advise and warn', the PM does not have to take the advice, on the other hand it's a sounding board for a PM who knows no political enemies, inside or outside of their party or government, are privy to.
The only time they get to have that kind of conversation.

(Also if a PM went nuts and asked the only person who can do so, the Chief of Defence Staff, to launch nukes, the CDS can refuse, the PM can seek to replace the CDS - if they could find someone - but that replacement could only have their appointment approved by the constitutional head of the forces, the Monarch. By this time the 'men in white coats' would have carted the PM off.
There is not an ignorant (one thing the Queen isn't) man child with his finger on the UK nukes button, sadly there is right now with the vastly larger US force.

Oddly, it seems that the PM's the Queen has got on with (or had the least trouble with) are not who you'd think from stereotypes. Eden, a high Tory with connections to royalty, was the PM who went 'bananas' (as the head of the RAF said) over Suez in 1956, to conceal his (and France's) not very cunning plan, he not only lied to the House of Commons but also to the Queen. At times there was a tetchy relationship with Thatcher, at those weekly meetings it is rumoured that it was less of a conversation than a lecture from the PM.
But Harold Wilson, a Labour PM well to the left of Blair got on famously with the Queen, a quick trip up to Balmoral would turn into a lengthy stay at the Queen's request, she got on well with Callaghan too.

Blair? After resentment he and his government had in their minds interfered too much in the wake of Diana's death, they soon realised that the government had been doing them a favour, in terms of retaining and restoring their popularity.
Using their advice to remake the Monarchy publicity wise, within a few years of the 1997 death of Diana the institution was more popular than it had been in decades. This happened also because the Queen was aware enough to take the advice in the first place.

You have to remember that since as long as most people in the UK can remember, the Queen while not politically involved in our lives, has been 'there'. On every coin, banknote, postage stamp.

While it's true that she is also an embodiment of the past, during the Blitz her parents didn't scuttle off, they stayed and Buckingham Palace took a bomb hit, the Young Princess Elizabeth and her sister were at Windsor Castle, safer but they were
young and still not immune. Later once old enough, Princess Elizabeth joined a women's corps servicing and driving military vehicles. By contrast a young woman of a similar age of 18 in 1943/4, between leaving school and in her (quite rare in those days) case going to university, managed to avoid the various kinds of war work just about every able bodied woman was doing at the time, in factories, working on farms, joining the various woman's branches of the services. She went on to become the UK's first woman PM. I bet they had little in common!

To answer another point, abdication is probably the worst swear word in the Royal Family, the Queen can remember how her uncle, a brash playboy who loved the huge advantages of his position but hated doing the actual duties (he'd leave secret government documents lying around stained with whisky glasses), had dubious friends, even more dubious ideas, had chosen his own desires above that to his nation (and back then Empire).
The Queen was schooled to be the exact opposite of him, helped her own father, a reluctant unexpected Monarch, who did just that, be the opposite of his wayward brother.
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:58 pm

Aesma wrote:
A poor boy or girl can hope to become the French head of state. Not in the UK.


How many paupers have reached the Élysée Palace compared to those who were lawyers, bankers or the children of the middle and upper classes?
 
ltbewr
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:45 pm

It will be interesting to see how the monarchy will change in status with the people of the UK upon the death of the Queen and her son Charles taking over. Charles will be taking over a country going through the Brexit, more assertiveness by Scotland as to greater self rule, a population less 'British' and Anglican and more from their former colonies and Muslim or just non-religious, social and health programs in decline and its empire gone for sure. I do see Charles bringing more attention to the concerns as to the environment to shape UK policies within the limits of his powers. I don't think Charles will be as popular, his personality just doesn't seem to be as well liked as the Queen, it will be different and interesting to see how it plays out.

The Queen's death will be a huge story here in the USA. likely our major news and general networks will send their top persons to cover it, coverage will be wall to wall on the cable news stations, it will distract from news here in the USA for much of days after the death with the ascension of Charles as King and in the run up to and on the funeral day including who will be in the USA's delegation and other world leaders in attendance.
 
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Channex757
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:58 pm

The whole question of the future of the Monarchy is hugely complicated.

For instance....what about the assets? Stuff such as the Duchy of Lancaster and the Crown Estates. Both are massive investment vehicles that own huge swathes of London and the countryside. Funds that these generate go to the Government, and the Queen gets her allowance from them. The idea of the taxpayer funding the Royals is actually a fallacy as these generate way more than Betty gets every year. If the Constitutional Monarchy agreements were dissolved, who gets the assets that were formerly the property of the Monarchy and are now managed by the State?

So it's actually easier for Britain to retain its Monarchy than to try and abolish it.

Back to the main feature...when Betty croaks it, the next big issue is the Commonwealth. It's her pet project and there is no automatic right of succession. The next figurehead of the Commonwealth has to be chosen by the various nations and it won't automatically be George VII.
 
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Sat Mar 18, 2017 4:57 pm

Aesma wrote:
na wrote:
Redd wrote:
I don't see how people can still care about or support monarchies. I'd be interested in someone explaining the reason they do, for me it's and archaic tradition that gives people privilege by birthright, a drain on taxpayers and without any positive use.


Oh, the myth of the burden to the taxpayer. Just a myth, and so untrue. There is likely not head-of-state on this planet who actually does so much for the income of the state as the british royalty. They cost a few dozen millions (like any boring dark-suited president who on top gets a huge pension after working for a few years), but generate billions of pounds of income for the industry and state each each.


Maintaining the properties alone costs much more than that, cue the Buckingham Palace refurbishment. As for what they bring to the country, I doubt it's simple to estimate.


The Treasury has received £2.4 billion in profit on assets owned by the Crown since 2007, which is more than six times the £369 million estimated cost of refitting Buckingham Palace over the next 10 years.

That said, the level of the monarchy’s public funding is based on the profits of the Crown Estate. The Treasury’s net profit, if you like, has been more like £2.1 billion over the last decade. It's then down to the government to decide how it spends that money—whether that be on Buckingham Palace or other priorities.

The Crown Estate is land and other assets owned by the British monarchy. It’s not the Queen’s personal property, though: she can’t sell any of it. The Crown Estate comes with the job.

Worth £12.9 billion, the Crown Estate includes half of St James’s in central London, various business parks and shopping centres around Great Britain, offshore wind farms, and 136,000 hectares of rural land.

It’s managed by independent commissioners rather than by the monarchy or the government. They hand over the profit from rent and other income from the Crown Estate to the Treasury, as has been the case since 1760.

The Queen gets a sum equivalent to 15% of this in a ‘Sovereign Grant’ to spend on the royal family’s official duties, such as visits abroad, staff salaries, and upkeep on palaces like Buckingham Palace and Windsor Castle.

Sandringham and Balmoral are owned by the royal family - So they pony up the money for those properties themselves.
Children should only be allowed on aircraft if 1. Muzzled and heavily sedated 2. Go as freight
 
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Aesma
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:27 pm

The Crown Estate belongs to the country, what the monarchy brings to that is 0. It's probably negative in fact, as it could be better used and bring more revenue.

The French state owns plenty of stuff too, what that might bring into public coffers is not considered revenue from having a president or whatever.

Having a monarchy might help tourism, although like I said I don't know how you would quantify that. Aside from that I've not seen the Queen brokering business deals, but I might have missed it.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Channex757
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:41 pm

The Crown Estate is more complicated than that. Each monarch signs over the rights to it as they succeed to the throne.

If you abolish the monarchy then the whole issue of the Estate comes into play and who has the rights to it.

As for the tourism angle, if you abolish Betty and Company then the various properties and exhibitions like the Tower and Crown Jewels become less of an attraction. My personal take is that the Crown Estates and Duchy of Lancaster pay Betty's way plus her various hangers-on, and the Duchy of Cornwall keeps Jug Ears in organic carrots. So it is relatively harmless to me and my life and a lot of people like having it around. Where's the harm?

Business is done by the other Royals as the Queen doesn't involve herself in those kinds of issues. Prince Andrew is known as Air Miles Andy for just that reason. The Duke of Edinburgh has also done trade stuff in the past. Promoting trade is something the Royals are definitely involved in.
 
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Channex757
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:50 pm

 
GDB
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:57 pm

One of the reasons we retained a Monarchy, aside from the reign of Oliver Cromwell which itself was a reason to bring it back, if neutered, have been in British eyes proved to be wise because of what happened just across the Channel.
France removed a tyrant King but what replaced it? All the fine words could not hide the new state terror of the new bosses, eventually not rule by King but by someone who was in all but name, until he came a cropper at Trafalgar, in Russia, at Waterloo.

All the while Parliamentary Democracy was evolving in Britain, for a couple of centuries very slowly but Industrial Revolution sped it up, with the vote being extended out economically, eventually across genders. All under the Constitutional Monarchy, who is howver not the Lawmaker, nor Tax raiser or executive in politics at all.
France is on it's 5th Republic since their Monarchy ended, the 3rd was so rotten it was in my view a major factor in losing the country in 1940.

Stability is a major part of both the representation and actual effect of the Constitutional Monarch, ultimately Parliament IS sovereign. But Parliament is the expression of the will of the people, however imperfect, no Parliament since the Restoration has wanted to dissolve the Monarchy and expand their own powers because they know most of the people don't them to do that.
 
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Dano1977
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Sat Mar 18, 2017 9:04 pm

Aesma wrote:
The Crown Estate belongs to the country, what the monarchy brings to that is 0. It's probably negative in fact, as it could be better used and bring more revenue.

The French state owns plenty of stuff too, what that might bring into public coffers is not considered revenue from having a president or whatever.

Having a monarchy might help tourism, although like I said I don't know how you would quantify that. Aside from that I've not seen the Queen brokering business deals, but I might have missed it.



6.6 million people visited Buckingham Palace, Windsor Castle and The palace at Holyroodhouse. Generating an income of around £55.6million. Small fish in the grand scheme of things.

The Queen may not actually sit in a boardroom and broker business deals... But what "The Firm" can offer is pomp and circumstance. A visit here and there.

State dinners all help oil the wheels of business.


Also

Who else could get away with playing Star Wars "The Imperial March" when the King of Saudi Arabia had his first state visit?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-Cc_dJBKz4


To be brutally honest - If Paris had won the bid for the 2012 olympics could you see Francois Hollande doing anything like this? (Yes I do know it wasn't the Queen jumping)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xW5abat5NEU

Or for the "Invictus Games"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hmXp5nrGSwQ
Children should only be allowed on aircraft if 1. Muzzled and heavily sedated 2. Go as freight
 
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Aesma
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:02 pm

Hollande is always making jokes, but for some reason French people didn't like that so he stopped.

I think the US has shown us what a president can do in that respect. With Obama I mean.

We'll see what President Macron will do for the 2024 Paris Olympics !
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Channex757
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:19 pm

Part of the reason the Monarchy endures is down to Betty herself being quite frugal. The pomp and circumstance stuff is just a thing. You can't really get away from it. However compared to other Monarchies the British are pretty cut-price.

Look at how the Saudis lavish money on themselves, or the various Emirs. Even the kings of small impoverished African countries, such as that buffoon who wanted to spend all the year's aid money on a Challenger jet for him and his 200 wives. Elizabeth knows full well if she had a reputation for lavish spending then the Monarchy could have been in trouble by now. Just one example is that she uses a Mark One Range Rover at Sandringham and resists any attempt to replace it as it's considered to be perfectly good for the job. Quite a few of their vehicles are well-maintained elderly ones.

She is hardly like her predecessors in that respect.
 
GDB
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:23 am

That's a good point about how frugal the Monarchy actually is, aviation as it happens illustrates this perfectly. Until recently no long range dedicated VIP transports, until a modular VIP kit than can quickly be removed, to an existing RAF tanker/transport.
The acrticle mentioned 32 Sqn as being the 'Royal' one but it's not that true now, it always had a secondary support role, now the VIP tasking isn't it's main role and when we say VIP we mean politically more than the Royals.

Compare that with the dedicated VIP fleet from A330's, Falcon Biz Jets, choppers, available to the French President, not to pick on them either, most nations have a bigger dedicated VIP air fleet, manned by their air forces, than the UK.

20 years after it was decommissioned, the Royal Yacht still brings in revenue as a museum ship but it's secondary role as a hospital ship in wartime, which might have been true when it was designed and built in the 50's, seemed to be BS when it wasn't used as such in the Falklands. There was a reason for that, firstly it was no longer suitable (if it ever was) but most of all the real secondary role was a state secret and much darker.

By the 1960's this role was for the Queen to be on the Britannia where it would hide amongst the isles and inlets, much of them mountainous, in Scotland as an effective secondary command post if WW3 broke out. It was thought that the main bunkers planned for senior ministers, civil servents etc but unlike any other nuclear power, NOT their families, were likely compromised and their locations known, new ones were built but the back up was Britannia, with the Queen and the Ministers pre arranged to be there in this event, there to exercise command and control, whatever that would mean.

After the Cold War further refits or more probably a new Yacht, could not be justified, not through anti spending money on the Royals, though it would be an indulgence these days, really it was due to that secondary role not being there anymore, the same reason it was the only RN ship with an Admiral as it's Captain, for the command and control function.
That some still call for a new one is more about them making a noise, that creature Boris Johnson being an example.

Yes and aviation illustr
 
Airstud
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:35 am

Channex757 wrote:
Quite a few of their vehicles are well-maintained elderly ones.


Maintained by her, I like to think.

She was, after all, a truck/lorry mechanic during WWII.
Pancakes are delicious.
 
Klaus
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:21 am

B777LRF wrote:
Best of all, however, is the fact that we'll never have to suffer a buffon such as Trump being head of state.


Uh, in the 1930s you've sort of had a close call before he got himself out of that job again.

Now imagine if instead of Elizabeth you'd had the absolutely possible misfortune of someone with Trump's kind of class but unfortunately the "right" birth and the same endurance. You'd have been stuck with him for decades by now, with no hope of getting him removed...
 
Airstud
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:30 am

Klaus wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
Best of all, however, is the fact that we'll never have to suffer a buffon such as Trump being head of state.


Uh, in the 1930s you've sort of had a close call before he got himself out of that job again.

Now imagine if instead of Elizabeth you'd had the absolutely possible misfortune of someone with Trump's kind of class but unfortunately the "right" birth and the same endurance. You'd have been stuck with him for decades by now, with no hope of getting him removed...


Why "no hope?" English Monarchs have been deposed before. Hence Cromwells...
Pancakes are delicious.
 
Klaus
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:58 am

Airstud wrote:
Klaus wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
Best of all, however, is the fact that we'll never have to suffer a buffon such as Trump being head of state.


Uh, in the 1930s you've sort of had a close call before he got himself out of that job again.

Now imagine if instead of Elizabeth you'd had the absolutely possible misfortune of someone with Trump's kind of class but unfortunately the "right" birth and the same endurance. You'd have been stuck with him for decades by now, with no hope of getting him removed...


Why "no hope?" English Monarchs have been deposed before. Hence Cromwells...


I still don't see what those presumable protections were supposed to be preventing it from happening in the first place.
(Nor, of course, do elections by themselves prevent insane things from happening, as Brexit demonstrates.)
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:18 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regency_Acts

If you do get a Trump figure, you just use one of these and remove them.
 
Klaus
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Thu Mar 23, 2017 7:49 am

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Regency_Acts

If you do get a Trump figure, you just use one of these and remove them.


I don't see how that would be any easier than with the US president (where proceedings are only now beginning to get into gear).
 
Kiwirob
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:51 am

Aesma wrote:
A poor boy or girl can hope to become the French head of state. Not in the UK.

edit : correction, a poor British boy or girl can indeed hope to become the French head of state, as there is no need to be born with the French nationality. I meant they can't hope to become the UK's head of state. Unless they plan a revolution. We can help.


They can become Prime Minister which has more usable power than any monarch in the UK has had for hundreds of years.
 
ltbewr
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Re: What would happen when the Queen dies ?(article)

Thu Mar 23, 2017 10:30 am

The USA has 3 areas of law to remove a President or Vice President that in parts are similar to the UK's Regency Acts to assure an orderly transition of power.
One is resignation as done by Nixon as he faced Impeachment procedures. The Vice President would take over per the original parts of the US Constitution. The 25th Amendment I discuss below clarified succession if a resignation.

Second is by Impeachment for 'high crimes and misnomers', in other words for serious criminal acts. It is a procedure via the Congress to bring charges and the Senate to actually hold a trial to remove them. It has only been carried out once in full for a President who served after Lincoln and our Civil War for criminal acts and he was not convicted so not removed. It has been used in part vs. Bill Clinton on the grounds he committed a felony act of giving false testimony in a civil lawsuit over his sexual behaviors on a woman before becoming President. The lower house didn't vote for charges, in part due as fellow Democrats controlled it at the time. For Nixon, it never got to the Congress for any real procedures although committees in the Congress did support moving to Impeachment as he resigned under pressure of his own party (Republican) members. Impeachment in full has been used only a small number of times, mainly to remove Federal Judges. Some want to use it to remove President Trump for his likely criminal acts and violations due to his continuing his business dealings while in office and other issues.

Third is the 25th Amendment of the Constitution that became law in 1967 in the aftermath of the assassination of President John F. Kennedy in 1963. This is to allow for the ability to remove a President if they become physically or mentally incapacitated where they can transfer power for short periods of time or to transfer powers to the VP where they cannot do their duties. It also covers the VP and gives a line of succession of powers if both the President and VP are dead or incapacitated. It is used by the President or VP if are under sedation or in recovery for medical procedures or have serious medical problems. A good example for the need for the 25th amendment was many years before it, President Wilson had a major stoke in office and unable to carry out his duties, his family and staff covered up his illness and the VP was unable to have powers conveyed to him. A number of people in the USA are pushing for it to be used vs. Donald Trump due to his serious issues and to avoid the long, dragged out and currently near impossible use of Impeachment proceedings.

In the UK the elaborate and specific procedures of succession by customs and the Regency Acts as would occur when the Crown royal does dies or unable to serve are critical as to prevent potential pretenders to the throne to take over in violent acts (something that even the UK and other royalty based governments like in Saudi Arabia have a bad history of). I wonder if the Regency Acts could come into play if a Royal was to become mentally ill, such as with King George the 3rd.

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