JoeCanuck
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Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:47 pm

I find that the extremists on both sides have one thing in common; the complete disdain for anybody that doesn't completely accept their views as the absolute and total truth.

Back in the radical 60's and 70's, the rallying cry was 'freedom'; freedom to choose, say what you thought without worry of repercussion, the freedom to be, do, think anything....and to not be forced to conform.

Now, there is increasing pressure to choose sides...join in...take a stand...be part of the crowd. If you're not with us, you're against us. Different ideas are scary. Don't you dare say or do anything that might upset someone. Ideas are bad if they hurt anyone's feelings.

I'm firmly stuck in the Free Speech camp. Words only have the power we give them....as listeners. The most powerful freedom we have in a democracy is the right to free speech...and that right exists SPECIFICALLY to protect speech that is radical, or potentially dangerous, or distasteful, or unpopular.

Nice, fuzzy, warm words don't need protection, but scary, new, upsetting words do. These are words that can upset people, and governments...that can change history, for the better or worse...but they MUST be allowed to be said and the listener has the right to ignore or disagree with them...but not to have them not spoken at all.

Freedom is a delicate, fickle thing, and the freedom of speech is the most fickle and delicate of them all. It's so very easy to dictate that just nasty slurs aren't allowed to be said, or only said by a select few, but what happens when moods change, and a once accepted word, is now deemed, (and this usually seems to start with a minority group taking umbrage), so distasteful that it must NOT be allowed to be spoken...by anyone, anytime, anywhere?

After that, the next logical step would be, that the so offensive word, not be written...then any past writings of the word, used in any context, must be destroyed. Let's get those Mark Twain pyres lit up.

The first thing dictators do, after they take over the military, is take over the media. All over the world, people are jailed or executed for merely speaking or writing. Dangerous ideas like free speech are crushed under the boot heels of oppression. They know that revolutions start with words, not weapons.

Saudi, Turkey, Russia, China....and too many other countries, have criminalized dissent...to the point where merely not agreeing with the powers that be strongly enough, can get one jailed or worse. In Russia, the quickest route to jail is to openly oppose Putin, and since he controls the media, his word is the only one heard, and presto...80% popularity in a country where his name is the only one on the ballot.

Trump is at war with the media...well, just the media that doesn't agree with him or merely publishes uncomfortable or unflattering truths about him. The MEDIA is his biggest enemy....not Russia, or China or Iran. Telling the uncomfortable truths have put all media on notice. Thankfully, the same vehicles for his insane rants can be used to counter them.

While he has the rights and freedoms to say anything he wants...rights we all have, (though, as president, he really should learn the art of editing before hitting send), he seems to be trying his best to curtail the rights for others.

As it is, the traditional media has pretty much given up on its duty as messenger and has morphed into a vehicle for click bait. Kim's ass gets orders of magnitude more press space and time than any human tragedy on earth...though ultimately and sadly, they just give us what we ask for.

I greatly worry about the freedom of speech. We've gone from a place where, "....words can never hurt you", to, "beware any word that may make you feel bad and punish those who dare to use those words".

The danger comes from the extremes of both sides, left and right, and in their disdain for the freedoms of speech and thought, they are in the same camp...which is ban that which does not conform to what THEY say and think.

There is a huge anti bullying swell that I find especially troubling. I abhor bullies and bullying. Using your position of strength to take advantage of someone in a weaker position sickens me. It's the root of what is the worst with humanity.

That being said, we are in danger of coddling the overly sensitive so much, that the critically important freedom of speech is in real danger. We are teaching the most vulnerable and sensitive of us, our young, that they do not have power over their emotions or feelings....that it's not how we feel about ourselves that's important, but how others feel about us that makes us who we are or should be.

We are in danger of institutionalizing victim mentality to the point where personal responsibility no longer exists, and everything will always be, "somebody else's fault".

We must not fall into the trap of descending into perpetual victimhood. My words have no power over you unless you give me that power. N-words, F-words, Q-words....the list grows every day of words that are verboten, unspeakable lest they make someone feel bad.

Ironically, (and this point seems to get very lost in the quest to ban words), the code word referencing the nasty word, has EXACTLY the same meaning as the nasty word, but our PC culture has given us carte blanche to use it freely. For example, the N-word mustn't ever be spoken, (except in song and only by those most offended by its use by others...again, ironic), but the logical extension of that is one can say, literally, "N-word", with impunity and even though they haven't said the actual N-word, they can say "N-word" as often as they like, and regardless which one they use, meaning is exactly the same.

So for the sensitive, the next logical step would be to ban the use of "N-word", to avoid using THE N-word, so that another phrase, perhaps "N-N-word", would have to be employed...and where does that end?

The same goes for any substitute for a distasteful or hurtful word. We've gone through a series of words that refer to people of colour, or a particular, (or no particular), sexual preference, or weight, or race, or heritage. Slurs and insults will never go away....ever. The small minded people who get their jollies in demeaning others, will just adapt, as they always have, and come up with new slurs that mean exactly the same thing, but sound different.

The only defense is to render whatever they say, powerless. You are not defined by the words or actions of others. You are defined by how you think of yourself. Only you can give power and strength to the words or actions of others and you can remove that power any time..........

.......and that's what we should be teaching the young and vulnerable in our society....that they really are their own master. That they and their feelings are not under the control of some jerkoff who can only make him, (or her), self bigger by, not making you smaller, but by getting you to MAKE YOURSELF smaller.

Banning distasteful thoughts or words is the thin edge of the wedge and accomplishes nothing good and a lot bad. It's the first step that ends with burning books and totalitarianism.

It's a misquote of Voltaire, but is at the core of every freedom we have,

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death, your right to say it".

It's not being on the the left or the right that make people enemies of free speech and thought, but extremists of any ilk.
What the...?
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:09 am

I'm very much of the belief that free speech only be curtailed by force of law in cases of incitement and/or cases such as stalking/harassment.

However I must also point out that we need people to be more considerate about exercising freedom of speech in certain situations. Take the example of the guy who nearly went to jail for wearing a t-shirt with a joke about the Hillsborough disaster. I would defend his right to wear such a thing without the police arresting him but would really prefer he didn't wear it in the first place and instead think about how it might offend or upset people. Same with a religious man making a speech where he might condemn LGBT people. He's entitled to that view and as long as he isn't inciting violence or a criminal act should be allowed to express them but I'd rather he restrain himself for the sake of good manners.

I suppose common sense is too much to ask for in this day and age.
 
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lebda
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Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:18 am

I don't think freedom of speech is in any danger at all. People finally standing up to those who think it's okay to say these things are practicing freedom of speech themselves. You can say horrible nasty things but don't start crying when people call you out on it.
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JoeCanuck
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Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:40 am

A Georgia couple was just sentenced to double digit terms for hate crimes, for speaking. Granted, what they were speaking was grotesque, but the fact is that they went to prison for what they said. Yes, they did utter threats, but I don't know a person who hasn't, at one time or another in their lives.

Is the mere voicing that you are going to commit a crime, itself a crime? If uttering a physical threat is a crime, is it also a crime to threaten other illegal acts, like burglary or arson?



Nobody was physically harmed by anything they did.

On the matter of hate crimes, the whole concept of that baffles me. Every crime against a person can be called a hate crime, can't it? Is it a hate crime for a white bigot to beat up a white liberal, just because of their views, or length of hair or the way they dress? Or is it only a hate crime when a white guy beats up a person of colour?
What the...?
 
salttee
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Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:00 am

JoeCanuck wrote:
they did utter threats, but I don't know a person who hasn't, at one time or another in their lives.

I know a lot of people who have never made a threat in their lives. But thanks for making this post Joe, I was going to make some logical rebuttals to your OP. But after seeing this last post of yours, I won't bother.
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lebda
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Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:21 am

JoeCanuck wrote:
A Georgia couple was just sentenced to double digit terms for hate crimes, for speaking. Granted, what they were speaking was grotesque, but the fact is that they went to prison for what they said. Yes, they did utter threats, but I don't know a person who hasn't, at one time or another in their lives.

Is the mere voicing that you are going to commit a crime, itself a crime? If uttering a physical threat is a crime, is it also a crime to threaten other illegal acts, like burglary or arson?



Nobody was physically harmed by anything they did.

On the matter of hate crimes, the whole concept of that baffles me. Every crime against a person can be called a hate crime, can't it? Is it a hate crime for a white bigot to beat up a white liberal, just because of their views, or length of hair or the way they dress? Or is it only a hate crime when a white guy beats up a person of colour?


You mean the ones who harassed the little kid at his birthday party? They weren't just "speaking". They threatened to kill the child, his friends, and his family; and they were brandishing. Is pointing a loaded shotgun at a group of non-threatening people while shouting racial slurs and that you're going to murder them a right to you?


Even if they just left it at calling the partygoers horrible names, it still wouldn't be worth defending them. Maybe those specific words don't affect you, but they affect so many others and totally ruin their lives and self-esteem. Racists have no place here and we should not be protecting them.
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BawliBooch
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Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:39 am

The Right wing is traditionally more vocal and more willing to use violence to suppress ideas that run counter to their world-view. And with Right-wing nutjobs gaining power in various parts of the world, we are seeing a rapid rise in the volume level of "debates" as LIberal's are forced to raise their voices in the attempt to be heard. They will try & shout us down, but we cannot be kow-towed into silence.

OTOH, I see the Liberal camp making many mistakes. Fareed Zakaria's TL on twitter today is one example. Fine journalist, but misplaced activism. We should try to be smarter in our battle against these neo-fascists.

Staying silent is NOT an option. Speaking personally: civil liberties, Human rights, Equality & Human dignity are non-negotiable items in any debate. Whataboutery is a favorite tactic of the neo-fascists in debates. But violence against opponents cannot be justified no matter what the provocation. Nor is pseudo-nationalism any excuse for clamping down on Liberal thought or using violence.

We are going through trying times. But this hatred too shall pass. Stay strong.
"We shall OVERCOME!"
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tommy1808
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Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:45 am

JoeCanuck wrote:
Nobody was physically harmed by anything they did.


That is very likely to be wrong. PTSD does have real physical symptoms.

best regards
Thomas
Crooked Donald Trump an his team are extremely careless in their handling of very sensitive, highly classified information. Not fit! #muchworsethanclinton
 
salttee
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Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 7:03 am

It doesn't matter if there was PTSD or not. Every state in the union puts people in prison for making threats. There are many good reasons to nip that one in the bud. This case was especially egregious though.
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pylon101
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Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:14 am

Free Speech is really in danger. In Europe, in Germany specifically, the liberal fascism created a fully totalitarian regime.
Even Facebook opinions can be prosecuted if they differ from the official position.
Here in States the situation is slightly better. But not that much.
Any dissent views may have consequences for job security.
Liberals went nuclear. Being supported by the financial oligarchy, they got loose.
These days nobody cares of economic views or political. The key question is: alien invasion (illegal immigration) and the demise of European and American self-authentication.
This is disgusting.
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PanHAM
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Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:54 am

You have been told before that "liberal fascist" is an Oxymoron.

Insult of all kinds, racial slur, slander etc. do not fall under free speech. Germany is ruled by the law and by nothing else. The law protects those who are insulted, not the ones who Insult. The law also protects the right of your own Picture. But the law fives every offender also the right to Appeal.
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pylon101
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Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:14 am

Too much falls under restrictions, PanHam.
I know your position reg. the rule of law.
Somehow the German rule of law used to be very specific.
I liked die DDR. Have been there for a few times.
I couldn't find any Web-forum von der DDR-fans. Neither in German nor in English.
Yes. Your constitution prohibits communist ideas.
20 years ago I was going to write PhD thesis about social policies in 1933-1945.
The Moscow State approved the theme. But German partners turned it down.
Yes. Your constitution prohibits any revisiting the history.
I am not going to argue with you. Doesn't make any sense.
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tommy1808
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Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:19 am

pylon101 wrote:
Even Facebook opinions can be prosecuted if they differ from the official position.
.


I really can't make up my mind, are you just trolling, a compulsive liar or just to stupid to grasp simple reality?

You can not be procecuted for opinions posted on Facebook if the differ from official positions.

Best regards
Thomas
Crooked Donald Trump an his team are extremely careless in their handling of very sensitive, highly classified information. Not fit! #muchworsethanclinton
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:54 am

Exercising your right to free speech comes with a huge responsibility. No right is absolute. And if your right to free speech, or any right for that matter, has a boundary, and for me the boundary is were the others space begins. Hate speeches are over the edge for me, far over the edge.
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BobPatterson
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Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:37 pm

JoeCanuck wrote:
A Georgia couple was just sentenced to double digit terms for hate crimes, for speaking. Granted, what they were speaking was grotesque, but the fact is that they went to prison for what they said. Yes, they did utter threats, but I don't know a person who hasn't, at one time or another in their lives.

Is the mere voicing that you are going to commit a crime, itself a crime? If uttering a physical threat is a crime, is it also a crime to threaten other illegal acts, like burglary or arson?



Nobody was physically harmed by anything they did.

On the matter of hate crimes, the whole concept of that baffles me. Every crime against a person can be called a hate crime, can't it? Is it a hate crime for a white bigot to beat up a white liberal, just because of their views, or length of hair or the way they dress? Or is it only a hate crime when a white guy beats up a person of colour?


Well, Joe, do you ever draw a line beyond which free speech is not free?

Which of these might you consider a crime or misdemeanor subject to penalty?

01. Verbal Assault.
02. Verbal Abuse.
03. Slander
04. Libel
05. Inciting to Riot.
06. Conspiracy to .................
07. Perjury
08. Lying with intent to defraud.
09. Treasonous Speech.
10. Knowingly making a false report (unsworn testimony).
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einsteinboricua
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Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:31 pm

As one of my engineering professors once said: "everything has a cost. Nothing is ever free". Free speech also has a cost: bearing responsibility for what you say.

You wanna threaten people and throw racial slurs? Go right ahead; but:
1. No one HAS to agree with you (free speech also means being able to disagree)
2. Face the consequences of your choice of words. If they offend, then be prepared to handle backlash.

There are snowflakes on both sides of the spectrum (we can at least agree on that), and these snowflakes will seek to shut down debate because it goes against what they believe in. But these snowflakes also operate under the believe that they're free from differing points of views and also make a case out of the smallest thing (being offended when I say "Hi" instead of "Hello", for example). It is quite a shame that these are the people who represent both camps and we can't have a sane discussion without feelings "being hurt" or insults thrown.
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tommy1808
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Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:39 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
2. Face the consequences of your choice of words. If they offend, then be prepared to handle backlash..


I German legal practice, that is called "implicit permission".

best regards
Thomas
Crooked Donald Trump an his team are extremely careless in their handling of very sensitive, highly classified information. Not fit! #muchworsethanclinton
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:12 pm

pylon101 wrote:
Too much falls under restrictions, PanHam.
I know your position reg. the rule of law.
Somehow the German rule of law used to be very specific.
I liked die DDR. Have been there for a few times.
I couldn't find any Web-forum von der DDR-fans. Neither in German nor in English.
Yes. Your constitution prohibits communist ideas.
20 years ago I was going to write PhD thesis about social policies in 1933-1945.
The Moscow State approved the theme. But German partners turned it down.
Yes. Your constitution prohibits any revisiting the history.
I am not going to argue with you. Doesn't make any sense.


So you are Russian, living in America?

The DDR had no free speech, half the country worked for the Stasi. And you liked this country and you are calling here that free speech is so important and is on the decline in the west. Well head to North Korea, also such a lovely country, or a bit warmer, Eritrea.
And yes Hitler had some fantastic social policies, some are still into effect today in The Netherlands. He also loved animals and was a vegetarian. He made the VW Beetle possible. But he is also responsible for a war with over 100million deaths, among those 6 million jews exterminated along with gays, gypsies, handicapt etc. So it is a bit sensitive in Germany as you might understand.

I don't understand were you stand.
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NIKV69
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Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:19 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
The Right wing is traditionally more vocal and more willing to use violence to suppress ideas that run counter to their world-view. . Stay strong.


Most ridiculous thing I have seen on this forum. All the violence we have had has been from the left.

Feel free to show me any riot in the US with far right protesters.

You have to be kidding. The violence is all far left zealots.

You have to just shake your head. :banghead:
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pvjin
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Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:19 pm

Dutchy wrote:
The DDR had no free speech, half the country worked for the Stasi. And you liked this country and you are calling here that free speech is so important and is on the decline in the west. Well head to North Korea, also such a lovely country, or a bit warmer, Eritrea.


DDR had free speech, it's just that saying certain things could make you lose your job, get you fined or even sent to jail. Exactly as in modern Germany:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_agai ... al#Germany

"Whosoever publicly or in a meeting disturbs the public peace in a manner that violates the dignity of the victims by approving of, glorifying, or justifying National Socialist rule of arbitrary force shall be liable to imprisonment not exceeding three years or a fine."

If you can get imprisoned for glorifying Nazi past or denying the holocaust, then you clearly have no more free speech than DDR had. One should be able to say such dumb things that don't threaten anybody without any punishment from the legal system. Actual hate speech which calls for extermination of some group of people is another thing.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:42 pm

pvjin wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
The DDR had no free speech, half the country worked for the Stasi. And you liked this country and you are calling here that free speech is so important and is on the decline in the west. Well head to North Korea, also such a lovely country, or a bit warmer, Eritrea.


DDR had free speech, it's just that saying certain things could make you lose your job, get you fined or even sent to jail. Exactly as in modern Germany:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_agai ... al#Germany

"Whosoever publicly or in a meeting disturbs the public peace in a manner that violates the dignity of the victims by approving of, glorifying, or justifying National Socialist rule of arbitrary force shall be liable to imprisonment not exceeding three years or a fine."

If you can get imprisoned for glorifying Nazi past or denying the holocaust, then you clearly have no more free speech than DDR had. One should be able to say such dumb things that don't threaten anybody without any punishment from the legal system. Actual hate speech which calls for extermination of some group of people is another thing.


I know you admire Putin's style of government. But oh please, are you really saying the freedom of the DDR is the same as in the current Germany. All I can say is, you are trolling in a big way.
You really don't know much of the world or your whole world is warped.
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tommy1808
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Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:05 pm

Dutchy wrote:
All I can say is, you are trolling in a big way.


Mind you, supposedly he is a Student going for a History Master.....

best regards
Thomas
Crooked Donald Trump an his team are extremely careless in their handling of very sensitive, highly classified information. Not fit! #muchworsethanclinton
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:16 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
All I can say is, you are trolling in a big way.


Mind you, supposedly he is a Student going for a History Master.....

best regards
Thomas


Yes and he suppose to be Finnish. But I don't get what you are saying here, sorry.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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pvjin
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Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:24 pm

Dutchy wrote:
I know you admire Putin's style of government. But oh please, are you really saying the freedom of the DDR is the same as in the current Germany.


No, but what I'm saying is that neither DDR or modern day Germany are exactly best examples of freedom of speech. Modern day Germany does shine in some other ways though, I must give Germans credit for having affordable, legal hookers and tobacco products, both of which I see as positive things that contribute to the well-being of any society. Many other European countries and USA have lot to learn from Germans in that sort of individual freedoms.

tommy1808 wrote:
Mind you, supposedly he is a Student going for a History Master.....


Yes, and even if understanding history won't bring me any money I must thank it for giving me a more enlightened view of the world. More you know easier it is to question common narratives which simply don't hold together when more closely inspected. It has also made a bit more nihilistic and cynical, that's good as world is much easier to cope with when you really don't give a damn.

Anyway, I wouldn't call my posts trolling, because they are all based more or less on my views on the world, even if I sometimes exaggerate and provoke as conflict is always funnier and more desirable than consensus.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
tommy1808
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Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:52 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Yes and he suppose to be Finnish. But I don't get what you are saying here, sorry.


He shows an astounding lack of understanding of historical events and their context ....

pvjin wrote:
Yes, and even if understanding history won't bring me any money I must thank it for giving me a more enlightened view of the world.


You don´t need to convince me of the merrits of History. If it wasn´t for language requirements, i would have done the same.

Anyway, I wouldn't call my posts trolling, because they are all based more or less on my views on the world, even if I sometimes exaggerate and provoke as conflict is always funnier and more desirable than consensus.


It is fun when you stick to facts, it is trolling if you don´t.

best regards
Thomas
Crooked Donald Trump an his team are extremely careless in their handling of very sensitive, highly classified information. Not fit! #muchworsethanclinton
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:53 pm

pvjin wrote:
DDR had free speech, it's just that saying certain things could make you lose your job, get you fined or even sent to jail. Exactly as in modern Germany:

You really have no effing clue what you are talking about. Please stop embarrasing yourself.
 
L410Turbolet
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Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:59 pm

pvjin wrote:
I must give Germans credit for having affordable, legal hookers and tobacco products, both of which I see as positive things that contribute to the well-being


In other words, you need to drop your virtual boyfriend Vladimir and FINALLY get laid. I'm sure it would brighten up your view of the world around you.
 
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pvjin
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Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:31 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
He shows an astounding lack of understanding of historical events and their context ....


I understand historical events and their context most clearly, otherwise I wouldn't be in the university. It's simply my world view and logic which you don't understand. Also, let's not forget that sometimes abandoning facts and logic makes sense if they don't seem to support your own agenda.


You really have no effing clue what you are talking about. Please stop embarrasing yourself.


But I do, my statement stands true. I never claimed it wasn't easier to get arrested for wrong opinions in DDR than in modern day Germany, but it has happened in both regimes. My definition for freedom of speech is nearly absolute freedom of speech where only direct threats against people are illegal.


L410Turbolet wrote:
pvjin wrote:
I must give Germans credit for having affordable, legal hookers and tobacco products, both of which I see as positive things that contribute to the well-being


In other words, you need to drop your virtual boyfriend Vladimir and FINALLY get laid. I'm sure it would brighten up your view of the world around you.


I get laid on regular basis nowadays as I have a girlfriend. Yet I still enjoy making rubbish posts on anet and support uncle Vlad and Trump for making politics fun again.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
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pylon101
Posts: 520
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Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Tue Mar 14, 2017 11:36 pm

Dutchy, you keep saying the very same narrative we used to read and hear for decades.
Calling yourself a democracy doesn't make the representative system democratic.
The degradation of institutions and the issue of "diversity" are closely related.

As to DDR, this country is very interesting to me for a reason.
Even though the extra-left model had started in my home country (obviously), it was die DDR where it truly reached its best in terms of:
- equality;
- community spirit embracing the whole nation (Unsere schone Republik);
- effective use of resources (despite all shortages we are aware of).
Nobody loves totalitarianism here. I myself had problems with KGB in the past.
What troubles me: Europe is moving to the leftest extreme again.
But this time it all is aggravated by the immigration factor.
The right extremism and the left extremism meet each other.
That's exactly what Hitler vs. Stalin pattern demonstrated.
They were competing each with other in the social progress: Germany was the first country proclaimed the 40 hour work week - and Stalin immediately followed by stating the same in the 1936 USSR Constitution.

Jesus Christ! How can be liberals so blind?!
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
L410Turbolet
Posts: 5545
Joined: Wed May 05, 2004 9:12 am

Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 1:44 am

pylon101 wrote:
Even though the extra-left model had started in my home country (obviously), it was die DDR where it truly reached its best in terms of:
- equality;
- community spirit embracing the whole nation (Unsere schone Republik);
- effective use of resources (despite all shortages we are aware of).

You really believe that? I guess that's why you needed 100,000s of occupation troops all to keep that regime in place? East Germans knew far better than anyone behind the Iron Curtain that they are living in a farce. Reference point being their own nation that was lucky not to end up in Russian prison of nations aka Eastern Bloc.

pylon101 wrote:
Nobody loves totalitarianism here.

In Russia? LOL!

pylon101 wrote:
What troubles me: Europe is moving to the leftest extreme again.

I think you should be far more troubled by where Russia is heading.

pylon101 wrote:
But this time it all is aggravated by the immigration factor.
The right extremism and the left extremism meet each other.
That's exactly what Hitler vs. Stalin pattern demonstrated.
They were competing each with other in the social progress: Germany was the first country proclaimed the 40 hour work week - and Stalin immediately followed by stating the same in the 1936 USSR Constitution.

Jesus Christ! How can be liberals so blind?!

??? Your incoherent ranting makes no sense.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 1653
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:35 am

pylon101 wrote:
Dutchy, you keep saying the very same narrative we used to read and hear for decades.
Calling yourself a democracy doesn't make the representative system democratic.
The degradation of institutions and the issue of "diversity" are closely related.


Don't understand what you are saying. Democracy isn't just a chosen parlement with real powers, unlike Russia for instance. It also is a free press, freedom of speech, freedom of gathering, a rule of law, neither are in place in your home country, Russia.
And yes, institutions are being put in doubt by populist politicians, and in the end the wrong kind populist aren't therefore in essence democratic. Facts are important to solve problems, you need facts to do analysis.

pylon101 wrote:
As to DDR, this country is very interesting to me for a reason.
Even though the extra-left model had started in my home country (obviously), it was die DDR where it truly reached its best in terms of:
- equality;

Simply put, it imploded and for a good reason, as did the USSR. Total equality will take away every incentive to better themselves.

pylon101 wrote:
- community spirit embracing the whole nation (Unsere schone Republik);

Oh gee, a sect also had a great community spirit.

pylon101 wrote:
- effective use of resources (despite all shortages we are aware of).

Nope, it didn't. As you put it yourself, there were huge shortages, how an you say it was effective use of resources. The internal logic isn't there.

pylon101 wrote:
Nobody loves totalitarianism here. I myself had problems with KGB in the past.

You are idolizing the DDR, one of the most totalitarian regimes the world has ever seen. I really don't get it.

pylon101 wrote:
What troubles me: Europe is moving to the leftest extreme again.

Is Europe moving to the leftest extreem? What indicates that? I would say most countries have a centrum right coalition in Europe, not a centrum left..

pylon101 wrote:
But this time it all is aggravated by the immigration factor.
The right extremism and the left extremism meet each other.
That's exactly what Hitler vs. Stalin pattern demonstrated.

They were competing each with other in the social progress: Germany was the first country proclaimed the 40 hour work week - and Stalin immediately followed by stating the same in the 1936 USSR Constitution.[/quote]
Don't understand what you are saying here? What is your point. Yes, the NAZI's, National Socialist, were a reaction of the German people on the harsh sanctions of the Versailles treaty and the depression. So the NAZI's were in their economic policies left, not right winged.

pylon101 wrote:
Jesus Christ! How can be liberals so blind?!

Blind for what? Please do tell me. :D
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 1653
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 3:17 am

pvjin wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
He shows an astounding lack of understanding of historical events and their context ....


I understand historical events and their context most clearly, otherwise I wouldn't be in the university. It's simply my world view and logic which you don't understand. Also, let's not forget that sometimes abandoning facts and logic makes sense if they don't seem to support your own agenda.

Oh please, that is an authority argument, and since you haven't finished your studies yet, please don't embarrass yourself with that and argue the merits, many of us are highly educated here. Many of us lived threw the times you are only reading about.
University is all about being objective, your world view and your logic is irrelevant for this. And if we don't understand your world view, please explain it to us, it's not our fault that we an't understand you, its yours. And my I ask, do you put forward this kind of views and support for it in your studies?

pvjin wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
You really have no effing clue what you are talking about. Please stop embarrasing yourself.


But I do, my statement stands true. I never claimed it wasn't easier to get arrested for wrong opinions in DDR than in modern day Germany, but it has happened in both regimes. My definition for freedom of speech is nearly absolute freedom of speech where only direct threats against people are illegal.

That is a debating trick as well. The DDR was a totalitarian regime were no criticism was allowed. And you are comparing that to a country which its citizens are protected against the state by the law. That is shameful especially for a person claiming to be a history master student. So what exactly did you try to prove with your comparison.

quote="pvjin"]My definition for freedom of speech is nearly absolute freedom of speech where only direct threats against people are illegal. [/quote]
That is fine. A debating trick would be, you are saying that screaming fire in a crowed cinema or something would be allowed by your definition, but since you probably don't want to exclude that, I will put it differently. I feel that no right is absolute, respect for each other should be there, I feel that you can't just slander somebody without evidence, And you can say, well go to court. I find that too simple, I think the law can also provide some moral guidelines. Another example: racism/hate speeshes, in your world view is that allowed, I feel that it doesn't serve a purpose other then divide a nation and look at how the Jews were called and how they were put in NAZI Germany, they were dehumanized and therefor created a climate which made the holocaust possible or more recently Rwanda, the hutu and tutsi.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
lebda
Posts: 49
Joined: Tue Mar 04, 2014 10:46 pm

Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:45 am

Oh dang. What did I come back to?
Denver Tower: Gulfstream 592, you’re cleared to 9,000 feet. For a vector to Hector, contact the sector director.
 
BobPatterson
Posts: 1355
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:06 am

pylon101 wrote:
Jesus Christ! How can be liberals so blind?!


Your question may be a valid one, but your blaspheme is not.

I happen to support your "right" to blasphemy, but I consider it the mark of a narrow, juvenile, uneducated mind, and of a person who is incapable of controlling his impulses.

Uncivilized.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
BobPatterson
Posts: 1355
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:13 am

pvjin wrote:
Also, let's not forget that sometimes abandoning facts and logic makes sense if they don't seem to support your own agenda.


I assume you mean that you would be comfortable yourself if you acted contrary to facts and logic. Would you please provide an example or two to show us just what you mean?

Thank you.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 5222
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:52 am

BobPatterson wrote:
Your question may be a valid one, but your blaspheme is not.

I happen to support your "right" to blasphemy, but I consider it the mark of a narrow, juvenile, uneducated mind, and of a person who is incapable of controlling his impulses.


Please what? Even if Jesus Christ had been a real person, how is the name followed by an "!" blasphemy?

pylon101 wrote:
As to DDR, this country is very interesting to me for a reason.
Even though the extra-left model had started in my home country (obviously), it was die DDR where it truly reached its best in terms of:
- equality;
- community spirit embracing the whole nation (Unsere schone Republik);
- effective use of resources (despite all shortages we are aware of).


Well, you know. When i was a teenager, i worked for a window company, and my work crew had one Prision inmate among them, he had to go back to Jail every evening. He said much the same about Jail as you do about the DDR.

Nobody loves totalitarianism here. I myself had problems with KGB in the past.


Why? Have been passed over for promotion?

What troubles me: Europe is moving to the leftest extreme again.


And PVV, AfD and Le Pen leading the charge to the left i presume....

best regards
Thomas
Crooked Donald Trump an his team are extremely careless in their handling of very sensitive, highly classified information. Not fit! #muchworsethanclinton
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9016
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:04 am

Amazing, some views here. Yes, the "DDR" was so free that they had to build walls and fence it in so These poor, unfree masses could not flood that workers paradise. The inmates of the DDR had to be protected. Of course they had freedom of speech, you could say anything the Politbureau approved. You also could write anything you wanted. To make sure that These lieberal rules were kept, each single "Erika" typewriter that left the factory in Dresden had a smaple ribbon with all keys typed which went to the Stasi (Ministry of State Security) in Berlin, together with the Name and adress of the owner. That way the owner was protected from theft. Of course there was a communal Spirit, especially when the block warden invited to the compulsory Saturday and Sunday voluntary harvest campaign. That made everyone equal, with the exception that some where a bit more equal than others. The highest grade of equality were enjoyed by the members of the Politbureau, they even had their own enclave called Wandlitz where everyone was equal, except the chairman, he could not be equal because he had to be absolute.

Thank god this haven of equality is history for over 25 years now, except in the minds of some dreamers..
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
BobPatterson
Posts: 1355
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:18 am

Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:21 am

PanHAM wrote:
Thank god this haven of equality is history for over 25 years now, except in the minds of some dreamers..


Sound like there are alternative histories just as there seem to be alternative facts today.
Facts are fragile things. Treat them with care. Sources are important. Alternative facts do not exist.
 
PanHAM
Posts: 9016
Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 6:44 pm

Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:34 am

That was irony in case you missed that. But the irony reflects the reality, the DDR was a giant prison housi g 17 Million inmates.
Was Erlauben Erdogan!!!
 
User avatar
pylon101
Posts: 520
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:36 pm

Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:46 pm

Even the leader of Lugenpresse - The Washington Post - tried hard but could not ignore the idiocity taking place in Germany.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/eu ... 2210f11644
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 5222
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 2:52 pm

pylon101 wrote:
Even the leader of Lugenpresse - The Washington Post - tried hard but could not ignore the idiocity taking place in Germany.


Says one of the boards chief liars. Did you just get your new instruction packet which fake news you are supposed to push?

The most conservative of all available serious, dependable Massmedia, The Washington Post, does in no way support the last lies you try to sell in this Threat.

What you are trying is defending people yelling "Fire" in crowded threaters, good luck with that, since that is illegal everywhere.

best regards
Thomas
Crooked Donald Trump an his team are extremely careless in their handling of very sensitive, highly classified information. Not fit! #muchworsethanclinton
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 1653
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:27 pm

pylon101 wrote:
Even the leader of Lugenpresse - The Washington Post - tried hard but could not ignore the idiocity taking place in Germany.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/eu ... 2210f11644


So we try to take you seriously and answer your claims. You don't react to that, fine. I feel no reason to counter this anymore, you disqualified yourself from this discussion by not participating.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
pylon101
Posts: 520
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:36 pm

Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:37 pm

That's alright.
I will be watching LIVE feed from the Netherlands.
I am on EK 231/232. The rest is just jet lag.
 
sccutler
Posts: 5638
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 12:16 pm

Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:15 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
The Right wing is traditionally more vocal and more willing to use violence to suppress ideas that run counter to their world-view.


And see, this is amusing, because I'd have said exactly the opposite - and I'd be able to cite to numerous examples for illustration, of how no one fights harder to suppress opposing viewpoints than the modern left.

But it just goes to show you - the first myth of communication is that it has occurred.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 1653
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:46 pm

pylon101 wrote:
That's alright.
I will be watching LIVE feed from the Netherlands.


You do that, see a real democratic country at work :D
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
Posts: 5222
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:17 pm

Dutchy wrote:
pylon101 wrote:
That's alright.
I will be watching LIVE feed from the Netherlands.


You do that, see a real democratic country at work :D


The Trump effect, the president that is so terrible that even Wilders Fans think "oh, fuck no - we don´t want that".

best regards
Thomas
Crooked Donald Trump an his team are extremely careless in their handling of very sensitive, highly classified information. Not fit! #muchworsethanclinton
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 1653
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:18 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
pylon101 wrote:
That's alright.
I will be watching LIVE feed from the Netherlands.


You do that, see a real democratic country at work :D


The Trump effect, the president that is so terrible that even Wilders Fans think "oh, fuck no - we don´t want that".

best regards
Thomas


Yes and the Brexit effect. Populism isn't the way forward.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
Posts: 5222
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:24 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Yes and the Brexit effect. Populism isn't the way forward.


yup... and just two or three decades ago we were all thinking that lesson has been learned.

best regards
Thomas
Crooked Donald Trump an his team are extremely careless in their handling of very sensitive, highly classified information. Not fit! #muchworsethanclinton
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 1653
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:29 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Yes and the Brexit effect. Populism isn't the way forward.


yup... and just two or three decades ago we were all thinking that lesson has been learned.

best regards
Thomas


You would think 70 years ago......
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Jalap
Posts: 370
Joined: Thu Oct 18, 2007 4:25 pm

Re: Is the right to Free Speech in trouble?

Thu Mar 16, 2017 12:16 am

Dutchy wrote:
You would think 70 years ago......

Clearly not.

The problem I see is that populists reduce stuff to extreme simplicity. You see it in this thread. National socialism is forbidden in Germany, which is a limitation of free speech indeed. A populist, who happily will deny any sense of perspective, will argument that Germany is no better than the DDR. Then you can argument all you want, none of your arguments will equal the simplicity of the populist's statement, as ludicrous as it may be. Trump, Erdogan, Putin, they all use the same tactic. Trump can lie 100 times, he'll counter with catching the opposing side on 1 lie. Persecive would disregard that 1 versus the 100, in the populist's view 1 = 100.

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