The Turkish president Erdogan wants to be an autocrat and take in real sense control of the country by concentrating power in the presidency and get more control over the media and justice system.

There are quite a few Turks with a dual nationality in Europe. So Turkish ministers want to adres them in their homecountries. But several European countries don't want members of Turkish government to speak in their countries. Debate is fine, but not with ministers seems to be the position.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39238618


The Dutch refused landing rights for the Turkish foreign minister. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-39242707

And in response Erdogan called the Dutch: "Dutch are Nazi remnants - Erdogan" and called for a boycot.

So what do you guys think of this situation?

Considering the government is equating voting "no" in the referendum to siding with terrorists, and going so far as to try to erase the word "no" from public perception, including withdrawing anti-smoking leaflets and banning films with no in the title, I'd say that the Dutch aren't the Nazi remnants in this particular soap opera...

Turkey right now is a case study in how to become a dictatorship state.

First of all, thank you for not letting Cavasoglu in. It's their own fault. The proper way would have been to politely knock on the doors of the Dutch, German etc governments and ask for permission to hold a political Rally. Instead, they tried to sneak into the backdoor, which Erdogan now tries to break into, aat least verbally.

Months in advance, strawmen have reserved premises in Germany pretending false reasons for the lease. The Mayor of Gaggenau, a small twon near Karlsruhe, was faced all o a sudden having an election Rally attended by several thousand Turks in a hall that seat about 600. No adequate parking, located in a small residential part of the City, no emergency Services booked (mandatory here for such Events). The Mayor pulled the emrgency brake and Erdogan screamed "Nazi". Three mor more. Several other cities cancelled permissions for faked Events with the same results.

Mayors and County Managers are responsible to mak sure that Events are Held properly, with emergenyc Services in place, premises not over crowded and so on. They will be Held personally responsible if something happens. The Dutch Government cancelled Cavasoglus visit for exact that reason, public safety was jeopardized.

Erdogan and his Ministers have to understand that they cannot fly in and request to hold a speech at a days or two notice. They have no right to campaign in foreign countries in first place and can do that with the consent of the sovereign countries anyhow. The Netherlands and Germany are not Turkish provinces. This will be an ongoing Story, alone for Germany there is a list of 30 ministeral visits and the Boss announced his coming, with no exact Dates.

It's not a referendum it's a plebiscite. At least that's what it would be called in France. Always held by kings, emperors, or dictators, always with a result close to 100% for the leader.

The impact on the domestic situation in the Netherlands will be interesting.
On the one hand, it could reinforce public opinion about immigrant communities, giving Wilders the upper hand going into the election.
Alternatively, Rutte's firm action could be well-received and give him a boost in the polls.

It's hard for me, as a person of Turkish origins living in Switzerland, not to feel ashamed everytime a member of this damned AKP government opens his or her mouth.
They will do and say anything if it gets them votes, and it sure will.
It all plays into Erdogan's hands.
Look at him play the victim card now and his supporters sing in tune the "I told you they can't stand us !!! We're winning !!! The Ottoman Empire will rise again!" mantra.

Aaaand now the Turkish PM wants to spontaneously visit Denmark. I hope they deny him the pleasure.

VSMUT wrote:

Aaaand now the Turkish PM wants to spontaneously visit Denmark. I hope they deny him the pleasure.

So do I. For once we agree.

So much for free speech in Europe...

seahawk wrote:

So much for free speech in Europe...

That is quite a populistic statement. Free speech isn't absolute. There are also other value's to consider, especially when they contradict the speech in question. And in the case of Turkey and its referendum (or plebiscite), they organize this to concentrate power around the president and defacto to minimize democratic principals.


So the question is, should the Netherlands government, or the German, or Austrian, or Danish give room to such a regime to get Dutch citizens behind their plan to make Turkey into an autocracy?
For your info, there is a debate aloud for Dutch-Turks, just not by members of the Turkish government.

seahawk wrote:

So much for free speech in Europe...

That does not apply to high ranking foreign members of governments. They need permission of the host Country. The Need also to tame their tonue and not Insult the countries that let them speak or cancel speeches. It is the sovereign right of countries to make that decision. .

No Dutch, German or any other European high ranking politician could do in Turkey what the Erdogan and his regime does in Europe.

Besides that most others would politely ask for permission and not break in through the front door. These guys know exactly that what they are doing is wrong. Germany should give an example and stand by the Netherlands and show Erdogan and the rest of the bunch the middle finger.,

So free Speech does not apply if the speaker tells something the establishment does not want to hear? If they do it in official way and rent suitable places giving the correct true type of event planed, they should be allowed to speak. So far refusing to let Erdogan speak, smells like supporting the Kurdish terrorists.

seahawk wrote:

So free Speech does not apply if the speaker tells something the establishment does not want to hear? Standing against Erdogan equals support of Kurdish terrorists.

Free speech doesn't apply if you don't adhere to basic rules on mass assemblies and diplomatic entry into another country.

seahawk wrote:

So free Speech does not apply if the speaker tells something the establishment does not want to hear? Standing against Erdogan equals support of Kurdish terrorists.

Yup, its definitely that black and white, there's nothing else it can be.

Vote dictatorial powers for Erdogan or you support the terrorists.

That line is pretty much on the first page of the first chapter of "Propaganda: How To Force The Electorate To Vote Your Way"...

seahawk wrote:

So free Speech does not apply if the speaker tells something the establishment does not want to hear? If they do it in official way and rent suitable places giving the correct true type of event planed, they should be allowed to speak. So far refusing to let Erdogan speak, smells like supporting the Kurdish terrorists.

The Speaker IS Establishment. Would THAT speaker be a polite and decent Person and not Insult his Peers as Nazis, he would have less Trouble to appear in front of hi potetial voters. I hope that Germany Shows him the finger and at least cut of power and microfones if the word "Nazi" is mentioned. And I further hope that the Turkish People vote NO.

I love it how offended Erdogan and his mates are.

Not only is he breaking Dutch/German/Danish... law, he is breaking his own law. In 2008 the Turkish election laws where changed, banning campaigning abroad. Obviously this was targetted at Güllen.

It's in Article 94/A and article 10 of the Turkish election law. Here is a German source:
https://www.welt.de/politik/deutschland ... ow_twitter

Which law in Germany is he braking? The best way is to let them speak and let the opposition do the same and allow protestors at the rallies held by Erdogan. Let him suffer free speech and democracy when he comes to Europe. Current Action are only helping to unite the Turks behind him.

seahawk wrote:

Which law in Germany is he braking? The best way is to let them speak and let the opposition do the same and allow protestors at the rallies held by Erdogan. Let him suffer free speech and democracy when he comes to Europe. Current Action are only helping to unite the Turks behind him.

Actually I agree with you, but that boat has sailed a long time ago.

seahawk wrote:

Which law in Germany is he braking? The best way is to let them speak and let the opposition do the same and allow protestors at the rallies held by Erdogan. Let him suffer free speech and democracy when he comes to Europe. Current Action are only helping to unite the Turks behind him.

That's indeed what I said in my post above, #6.
Of both ways, this was probably the worst.
This will only cement the thought of Turks who think that Europe is out to get them.
And that's indeed what people are saying, those voting AKP at least.
"Look at them blocking our sucess! It must mean that we are on the right path!"

Thankfuly there are also those who can see through Erdogan's B.S, me included, but will it be enough to come up with a NO in the results?
Only time will tell.

Dutchy wrote:

seahawk wrote:

Which law in Germany is he braking? The best way is to let them speak and let the opposition do the same and allow protestors at the rallies held by Erdogan. Let him suffer free speech and democracy when he comes to Europe. Current Action are only helping to unite the Turks behind him.

Actually I agree with you, but that boat has sailed a long time ago.

This boat should never sail, because we should not give up the foundations of our values based on provocations of a wannabe dictator. Europe´s current reaction is the best support Erdogan could ask for. Want to piss him off, openly invite him to sent a minister for a public debate to be shown on television about the referendum, so that his government and the opposition get a chance to present their views, just like we do it when our elections are up. Want to piss him off further, invite a representative to a discussion about the freedom of speech in different countries based on the example of the poem by Böhmermann. Could a journalist publish such a work in Turkey?

The meeting is happening in France now. The venue (too small) had been booked by the "union of Turkish democrats". Democrat my ass !

seahawk wrote:

Which law in Germany is he braking? The best way is to let them speak and let the opposition do the same and allow protestors at the rallies held by Erdogan. Let him suffer free speech and democracy when he comes to Europe. Current Action are only helping to unite the Turks behind him.

International law (Voelkerrecht) Erdogan and his Crew would have needed to apply for a permission from the German / Dutch etc. Governments to speak at an election / Referendum Rally. We are sovereign states and not Turksih provinces where the boxx can fly in at will. They know that of course and Instead they sneak in through the back doors by applying with lcoal cities or counties for Dance Events They faked applications and screem "Nazi" when they get cought.

Whatever the arguments are for letting him scream, we do not want to have inner Turkish differences fought out here. That opinion is shared by 90% of the German Population BTW. and that includes those of Turkish heritage.

seahawk wrote:

openly invite him to sent a minister for a public debate to be shown on television about the referendum, so that his government and the opposition get a chance to present their views, just like we do it when our elections are up.

Why should Germany or Denmark want to be dragged into Turkish internal politics? There is Turkish TV and/or news websites available for those living abroad and if one needs to attend a rally so badly, he should take a day off and fly to Turkey.

Importing conflicts is a real problem, lots of Kurds among Dutch Turks and many whom are against Erdogan and many for him. That was the official reason given, public order was threatened by this, rightfully so.

Well played by Erdogan.
All this is only to boost his image towards the Turkish public
He appears strong and not affraid to challenge the EU.
Many Turks will love this.
The election is given anyway.

Dutchy wrote:

Importing conflicts is a real problem, lots of Kurds among Dutch Turks and many whom are against Erdogan and many for him. That was the official reason given, public order was threatened by this, rightfully so.

Exactly. And then you have the supporters of Gulen to add into the mix. The safety problem with Turkish manifestations is real because the people of Turkish decent are so divided and often get violent when confronted with eachother. Needless to say no country is interested in having these Turkish disputes play out within its borders, that's why Turkish ministers aren't welcome.

MoonC wrote:

Thankfuly there are also those who can see through Erdogan's B.S, me included, but will it be enough to come up with a NO in the results?
Only time will tell.

Sadly I think you're in for a struggle that'll last much longer than this referendum, likely another 30-40 years before any of the radicalizing, and now radicalized elements of your government burn out. Now matter how it started and who's to blame Turkey is like most other large Muslim-dominated countries in that it will have to go through a decades long identity crisis to finally determine what kind of government best suits it. You can have European style rule of law where religion is marginalized to its proper place, respected but nowhere near the true levers of power, or you go the route of Iran, Iraq, Saudi and Egypt. The good news for Turkey is that China and Russia will accept it with open arms and even encourage Erdogan to grab ever more bits of power until he's achieved his dream of absolute and total control. One thing is certain, the Turkish people are willing accomplices in their own destiny. Some people love to blame Europe and the US for all of the woes of this region, but it's going to be hard to make that connection with Turkey. What happens in this country is down to its own people. Best of luck to you.

VSMUT wrote:

Aaaand now the Turkish PM wants to spontaneously visit Denmark. I hope they deny him the pleasure.

No, that's not the case. An official visit by Turkish PM Mr. Binali Yildirim here in Denmark including meeting with the Danish PM was planned already in December last year to take place from 20 March this year.

Today the Danish PM Mr. Lars Løkke Rasmussen told the press that the Danish ambassador in Ankara has informed the Turkish authorities that the meeting in Copenhagen has been postponed indefinitely. (That wording would normally indicate that the meeting has been postponed until Turkey has a new and better PM).

The reason is the totally unacceptable rhetoric by Turkish authorities against Germany and the Netherlands. Mr. Rasmussen also expressed that he is very worried for the present political developments in Turkey.

Turkey has so far not made attempts to physically include Denmark in their "civil war". But Denmark of course stands totally side by side with the Germans and the Dutch in this issue.

Lets not forget the fact this is not Erdogan and AKP just pushing for the constitutional referendum, but one of the two primary opposition parties (MHP) supports a yes vote also.
Frankly its way overdue Turkey reform and adopt a more modern constitution and move away from its 1980 military imposed guidance after decades of talk.

mercure1 wrote:

Lets not forget the fact this is not Erdogan and AKP just pushing for the constitutional referendum, but one of the two primary opposition parties (MHP) supports a yes vote also.
Frankly its way overdue Turkey reform and adopt a more modern constitution and move away from its 1980 military imposed guidance after decades of talk.

Turkey is well overdue for reforms, on that we agree. I don't think, however, that a reform which places all judicial, parliamentary and military powers in the hands of a president can be seen as progress. It is, rather, regressing towards a totalitarian state, which is what Turkey was in the 1980s. And frankly I'd rather have the military of those times (fiercely secular, 'guardians of Ataturk's state') than the present day tin-pot wannabe dictator which is Erdowanker.

seahawk wrote:

Which law in Germany is he braking?

Given his statements Volksverhetzung comes to mind.

http://www.filedropper.com/cbhukumetsis ... surdefinal

This is their propaganda bs aimed at Turkish people in Germany (hence in German), doesn´t have an imprint and V.i.s.d.P. and gives a very clear path into a fully blown dictatorship, packed quite nicely.

I like especially the part about courts having to be impartial in the future. Courts are impartial by definition, someone is just setting up the legal systems, courts, judges and rulings to be ignored, whenever Joseph Vissarionovich Erdogan thinks they are being partisan.

best regards
Thomas

B777LRF wrote:

mercure1 wrote:

Lets not forget the fact this is not Erdogan and AKP just pushing for the constitutional referendum, but one of the two primary opposition parties (MHP) supports a yes vote also.
Frankly its way overdue Turkey reform and adopt a more modern constitution and move away from its 1980 military imposed guidance after decades of talk.

Turkey is well overdue for reforms, on that we agree. I don't think, however, that a reform which places all judicial, parliamentary and military powers in the hands of a president can be seen as progress. It is, rather, regressing towards a totalitarian state, which is what Turkey was in the 1980s. And frankly I'd rather have the military of those times (fiercely secular, 'guardians of Ataturk's state') than the present day tin-pot wannabe dictator which is Erdowanker.

And the Turkish president and the parlement will be elected at the same time. There is no second chamber, so all the power lays in the hand of the same party for five years with no democratic way to correct the president.

It is not up to Europe to decide this. Most Turks support Erdogan and they want an Islamic state to be built on the foundations of a strong president.

seahawk wrote:

It is not up to Europe to decide this. .

It is however totally within the right of European government to tell him that he can´t advertise for his dictatorship in Europe.

best regards
Thomas

seahawk wrote:

It is not up to Europe to decide this. Most Turks support Erdogan and they want an Islamic state to be built on the foundations of a strong president.

LOL, I like the part "built on the foundations of a strong president.". Yes, OK, that would solve a lot of Problems..........

Well considering that about 60% of the Turks living in Germany actually voted for him and support this policy, the actual question is not if Erdogan should be allowed to campaign in Germany, it should be asked why people favouring a dictatorship are allowed to stay in Germany indefinitely. Or even better, why SPD, Linke and Greens want to allow those people to vote in German elections. That is something I find much more worthy of discussion than some nazi provocation by the little Sultan.

seahawk wrote:

Well considering that about 60% of the Turks living in Germany actually voted for him and support this policy, the actual question is not if Erdogan should be allowed to campaign in Germany, it should be asked why people favouring a dictatorship are allowed to stay in Germany indefinitely. .

accoring to Turkish friends they don´t support dictatorship, and some of them, avid Erdogan supporters, will actually vote no for that reason. What, at least that small sample, likes about him is that he gave turkey a somewhat stable, lasting government.
But the question of course is valid, if you like living in a dictatorship, why not move back to your homeland? It is the homeland after all. Unless of course they want other Turks to live in dictatorship because they hate their fellow Turkish citizen.

best regards
Thomas

tommy1808 wrote:

seahawk wrote:

Well considering that about 60% of the Turks living in Germany actually voted for him and support this policy, the actual question is not if Erdogan should be allowed to campaign in Germany, it should be asked why people favouring a dictatorship are allowed to stay in Germany indefinitely. .

accoring to Turkish friends they don´t support dictatorship, and some of them, avid Erdogan supporters, will actually vote no for that reason. What, at least that small sample, likes about him is that he gave turkey a somewhat stable, lasting government.
But the question of course is valid, if you like living in a dictatorship, why not move back to your homeland? It is the homeland after all. Unless of course they want other Turks to live in dictatorship because they hate their fellow Turkish citizen.

best regards
Thomas

That is the problem, they are torn between their mother-country and father-country. In The Netherlands, we are talking about the third generation, they were born here, were raised here, went to school here and still there is something that makes them long for the Turkish homeland. Torn between two countries.

tommy1808 wrote:

But the question of course is valid, if you like living in a dictatorship, why not move back to your homeland? It is the homeland after all. Unless of course they want other Turks to live in dictatorship because they hate their fellow Turkish citizen.

The answer is simple, wages and benefits are higher in Europe. They may like the idea of an Islamic dictatorship but aren't willing to face the economic consequences of actually living in one.

tommy1808 wrote:

seahawk wrote:

It is not up to Europe to decide this. .

It is however totally within the right of European government to tell him that he can´t advertise for his dictatorship in Europe.

best regards
Thomas

100% with you on this one Thomas!

I'm not sure that's a right, actually. Freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, those are rights.

There is no doubt that diplomacy should prevail and Turkey shouldn't do what's it's doing if it wants a continued relationship with the EU, however treating their ministers like criminals of some sort will not help.

I would like to hear Angela Merkel especially, explain that if relations with Turkey become strained, many people will get poorer.

Ministers cannot cross the borders like ordinary People. There is international law and there are convetions. They have to notify the countries they are visiting well in advance and if they try to hold political speeches they have to ask for permission

No one wants to treat Turkish Ministers like criminals but if they behave like criminals they have to face the consequences..

Their immunity from prosecution saves them the consequences for calling officilas from Mayor to prime Ministers "Nazis" and "Fascists". Something that would get ordinary people to face a judge.

Erdogan and his cabinet are roamling through Europe with a Panzer, comlaining and screaming havoc when someone stops them. That on top of their usual state of being permanently offended. I feel sorry for the Turks, they don't deserve that. ,

Imho at least in Germany it is a stupid side show. Holders of the Turkish passport go to a rally for a vote in Turkey. Imho this is not much of a problem. The better question is why some of them have 2 passports and can vote in German elections as well and much more interesting, why do SPD, Green and Linke suggest to give those people the right to vote in German elections (and least at the regional level).

Aesma wrote:

There is no doubt that diplomacy should prevail and Turkey shouldn't do what's it's doing if it wants a continued relationship with the EU, however treating their ministers like criminals of some sort will not help.

There is, however, doubt what good does French soft approach bring? Is it usual socialist pre-election pandering to muslims? Fear, that one bad word and half of Paris will be ablaze again?

BTW, someone should explain Erdogan how colosally stupid he makes himself look with those ridiculous "nazi" accusations? Because it were nazis who did an excellent job riling ethnic Germans in Sudetenland against their own country. And their country it really was for many centuries (unlike with Turks who are a leftover of mismanaged social engineering experiment just a few decades old).

Aesma wrote:

I'm not sure that's a right, actually. Freedom of speech, freedom of assembly, those are rights.

Yes, they are. A representative of a government is however exactly that, and not a person. Governments don't have freedom of speech or a right to assemble people outside of their own territory.

Hitler holding a rally in Paris 1935? Chruschtschow a rally on the national mall 1962? Ho Chi Min holding a rally at the Eifel tower 1954?

That would have been their right? I don't think so.....

Best regards
Thomas

Aesma wrote:

treating their ministers like criminals of some sort will not help.

It was the only option left, the minister blatantly ignored an explicit request to leave The Netherlands because she was an undesirable alien, and was in an armored vehicle likely surrounded by armed security. It was only after a Dutch anti terror unit intervened and made an attempt to tow her vehicle to Germany with her in it that she agreed to leave.

L410Turbolet wrote:

Aesma wrote:

There is no doubt that diplomacy should prevail and Turkey shouldn't do what's it's doing if it wants a continued relationship with the EU, however treating their ministers like criminals of some sort will not help.

There is, however, doubt what good does French soft approach bring? Is it usual socialist pre-election pandering to muslims? Fear, that one bad word and half of Paris will be ablaze again?

Most Muslims in France are from Africa, I doubt they care about Turkey. France used to have a "special relationship" with Turkey, but not because of Islam, on the contrary, it was the only other country practicing secularism the French way (laïcité). Erdogan is trampling on that at an accelerated pace.

In France there was no risk of trouble from the rally and indeed nothing happened, so it was difficult to ban it. Yes ministers represent a government, last time I checked Turkey is a close ally, we're not talking about North Korean ministers here.

Aesma wrote:

L410Turbolet wrote:

Aesma wrote:

There is no doubt that diplomacy should prevail and Turkey shouldn't do what's it's doing if it wants a continued relationship with the EU, however treating their ministers like criminals of some sort will not help.

There is, however, doubt what good does French soft approach bring? Is it usual socialist pre-election pandering to muslims? Fear, that one bad word and half of Paris will be ablaze again?

Most Muslims in France are from Africa, I doubt they care about Turkey. France used to have a "special relationship" with Turkey, but not because of Islam, on the contrary, it was the only other country practicing secularism the French way (laïcité). Erdogan is trampling on that at an accelerated pace.

In France there was no risk of trouble from the rally and indeed nothing happened, so it was difficult to ban it. Yes ministers represent a government, last time I checked Turkey is a close ally, we're not talking about North Korean ministers here.

Turkey was given plenty of opportunities not to come to this. She was not welcome in The Netherlands, and we are a sovereign country, we can deny anyone we please. Normally we don't, but this is a special case. The Turkish minister decided to cross the border illegally and thus provoke the Dutch government. What should the Dutch government have done in this case?
Turkey wanted a diplomatic row for electoral gain, and they got them, the winner is Erdogan in the short term, in the long term I think he will loose, or better Turkish people will loose.

So Erdogan has taken it a few steps further,
1. no Dutch diplomats are aloud back into the country, current ambassador was not in Turkey
2. no Dutch flights with diplomates are aloud to land in Turkey or use its airspace
3. Turkey will file a complained with the European courts for human right violations
4. the friendship association between the Dutch parlement and Turkish parlement will be suspended
5. there will be no contact between the Turkish and Dutch government

On the rhetoric front:
Erdogan named:
- the Dutch a resemblance of the Nazi regime.
- said the Dutch killed (genocide) the 8.000 moslims killed in Sebrenica by the Serbs
- gave voting advice, not to vote for Wilders or Rutte
- called it a outrage that some protesters were injured in Rotterdam.

What is next for Erdogan? How far does he want this to take?

On the steps:
3. well let them, according to several Dutch experts, he has no case, the Netherlands is a sovereign country, so it is not obliged to let someone in, especially not if this person is going to conduct a political rally. And I am sure it will be handled by the court, after the 5.000 complains against Turkey for serious human right violations by the Erdogan regime.
5. Apparently the Turkish prime minister excepted the invitation of prime minister Rutte to have a diner to talk thinks threw, I guess that doesn't count as such

On the rhetoric:
- a bit painful, as Merkel pointed out, The Netherlands has suffered greatly under the Nazi's. And as Aboutaleb, mare of Rotterdam, pointed out, Rotterdam was bombed by the Nazi's, so a bit more historical awareness, would be nice from the Turkish side
- As said, Sebrenica wasn't genocide by the Dutch, but by the Serbs. It is a black pages in Dutch history because they were there to protect the Moslims and the Dutch military could not do its job because of lack of support by the United Nations. But can we now recognize the Armenian genocide of 100 years ago? That did happen and the Turks don't want to recognize it to such an extend that they put sanctions in place to anyone whom says differently.
- seems to be ought (hypocritical), since his hole premise was that the Dutch shouldnot interfine with Turkish referenda.
- no complains were filed by anyone against the Dutch police. So we will wait if some will be filed.

Dutchy wrote:

What is next for Erdogan? How far does he want this to take?

Relations will remain strained for a while but besides that not much will happen. All measures are symbolic and the Dutch government doesn't care enough to react in a similar way. In a week or so Erdogan will have found another enemy to make bizarre ramblings about.