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casinterest
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Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:34 pm

rfields5421 wrote:
They will push something through. I have little expectation that the current bill will not get through the Congress and get passed.

Though there will definitely be modifications, so we won't see the final version until it lands on Trump's desk. Even then, the implementation regulations published later in the Federal Register will tell us more about exactly how the bill will work/ impact our daily lives.

My hope is that the Congress will be amenable to addressing specific issues and tweaking the law in the future.

No one expected the ACA/Obamacare to remain in place for several years as it was originally passed. Democrats, Republicans and the President all said at the time it was passed that there would need to be some adjustments and changes as the law was implemented and unforeseen consequences would need to be addressed.

However, the House Republicans absolutely refused to allow any changes to make the ACA a better law that served the needs of the people better. Their stance was only one possible change allowed - complete repeal.

I am certain that a year from now, enough unhappy voters will be talking to Congressmen seeking re-election - that they will want to make changes.

Heck, one year from today the Republican primaries in Texas will be over. Quite possibly several of the House Republicans from Texas spearheading the efforts to pass this bill might have felt voter anger and have lost their party primary.


I think the Republicans finally see the warning lights though. This is not just about past campaign promises,. It is about affecting the healthcare of their constituents, and now that they are staring at some heavy backlash, I think they will have to stand down from this Bill. If they pass TrumpCare, it will be a litmus test going forward, just as Obamacare was for the Democrats. The one thing constituents want solved is the spiraling healthcare costs. There is nothing in this bill that does that for the core groups. It merely shifts who pays from the rich to the poor.
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DLFREEBIRD
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Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:09 am

GOP lawyers have admitted that the GOP replacement plan will cut off coverage to millions of American's suffering from mental illness and substance abuse

Let me refresh everybody memory. The GOP just passed a law allowing the mentally ill to own guns, now they want to take away coverage for people suffering from mental illness. What happened to common sense?

http://www.iflscience.com/health-and-me ... hcare-act/
 
tommy1808
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Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:45 am

DLFREEBIRD wrote:
What happened to common sense?


United States v. Causby 328 U.S. 256, is the last known application of common sense in the United States.

However, it makes a lot of sense, because more crazy people with guns, means more gun sales.

best regards
Thomas
Crooked Donald Trump an his team are extremely careless in their handling of very sensitive, highly classified information. Not fit! #muchworsethanclinton
 
Hillis
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Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Fri Mar 10, 2017 5:47 pm

Leave it to Stephen Colbert to show us how idiotic and ignorant Republicans are on this issue. The part on Paul Ryan explaining "where Obamacare went wrong", is absolutely priceless.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/ste ... 078ca5ccc1?
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cpd
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Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Sat Mar 11, 2017 3:19 am

pvjin wrote:
Trump is doing God's work. This planet is severely overpopulated and our specie is about to go extinct if nothing changes, modern medicine should be accessible only to the rich and intelligent who know not to make too many children. Survival of the fittest would be good for the gene pool also.


And I think it's a safe bet that much I'm fitter than you, so that's it for your health care.

Hillis wrote:
sovietjet wrote:
pvjin wrote:
Trump is doing God's work. This planet is severely overpopulated and our specie is about to go extinct if nothing changes, modern medicine should be accessible only to the rich and intelligent who know not to make too many children. Survival of the fittest would be good for the gene pool also.


Alright then, so when your child gets a serious sickness or is in an accident that requires hospitalization, I expect you to just say "well tough luck, better my child dies because the planet is overpopulated anyway. My child is not fit enough to survive!".


Oh, the two Communists are having a spat! :duck:


The silence to your reply is deafening. ;)
 
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pvjin
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Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Sat Mar 11, 2017 1:10 pm

cpd wrote:
And I think it's a safe bet that much I'm fitter than you, so that's it for your health care.


Maybe, but I'm still quite fit.

cpd wrote:
The silence to your reply is deafening.


There was no silence, I replied but somebody deleted my post. In the reply I told him he would make a good communist considering his belief in equality and hate for all forms of nationalism and conservatism.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
330west
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Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Sat Mar 11, 2017 2:40 pm

pvjin wrote:
Maybe, but I'm still quite fit.


So I read on another thread(or maybe this one) that you're working on a graduate degree in history. Everyone I know who studied history(or any of the liberal arts except econ) is still stuck in grad school at 32 or working in coffee shops and bookstores. That doesn't seem like a population worth perpetuating. Wouldn't you agree?
 
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pvjin
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Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Sat Mar 11, 2017 3:40 pm

330west wrote:
pvjin wrote:
Maybe, but I'm still quite fit.


So I read on another thread(or maybe this one) that you're working on a graduate degree in history. Everyone I know who studied history(or any of the liberal arts except econ) is still stuck in grad school at 32 or working in coffee shops and bookstores. That doesn't seem like a population worth perpetuating. Wouldn't you agree?


Yes, history isn't a smart choice if you want to find proper employment, which is precisely the reason why I'm currently in process of changing my major to something much more practical.

But really I don't value people based on their education, somebody needs to work in those coffee shops and bookstores after all. What I value most is independent thinking.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
330west
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Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Sat Mar 11, 2017 4:03 pm

Sounds like you're not that bright if you couldn't figure out that the return on a history degree was poor before going into it. I'd suggest shutting up on the eugenics schtick until you've accomplished something of value.
 
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cpd
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Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Sun Mar 12, 2017 4:22 am

pvjin wrote:
cpd wrote:
And I think it's a safe bet that much I'm fitter than you, so that's it for your health care.


Maybe, but I'm still quite fit.


You reckon? I'll be over in Europe later this year. Want to have a go riding up Timmelsjoch? :D
 
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pvjin
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Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Sun Mar 12, 2017 10:53 am

330west wrote:
Sounds like you're not that bright if you couldn't figure out that the return on a history degree was poor before going into it. I'd suggest shutting up on the eugenics schtick until you've accomplished something of value.


I knew it was poor, I just underestimated the failures of our education policy. History degree offers a poor return only because our universities educate way too many people from this field. If numbers were matched with the demand for teachers (and a couple of historians) there would be no issue. Few 18yo's really know what they want anyway. And the eugenics part was mostly a troll, although I do believe population levels should be brought down in a way or another that doesn't involve unnecessary violence.

cpd wrote:
You reckon? I'll be over in Europe later this year. Want to have a go riding up Timmelsjoch?


I think I could do it, providing I'm not busy with other things.
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that." - Martin Luther King Jr
 
tommy1808
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Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:50 am

the GOP is also redefining the dictionary:

http://www.vox.com/the-big-idea/2017/3/ ... cost-price

Paying 200 US$/Month more apparently means "not being worse off financially".

best regards
Thomas
Crooked Donald Trump an his team are extremely careless in their handling of very sensitive, highly classified information. Not fit! #muchworsethanclinton
 
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casinterest
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Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:42 pm

the CBO just made Trump and company liars again.

24 million will lose health insurance by 2026 under Trumpcare

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/poli ... /99117332/
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sovietjet
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Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:50 pm

cpd wrote:
pvjin wrote:
Trump is doing God's work. This planet is severely overpopulated and our specie is about to go extinct if nothing changes, modern medicine should be accessible only to the rich and intelligent who know not to make too many children. Survival of the fittest would be good for the gene pool also.


And I think it's a safe bet that much I'm fitter than you, so that's it for your health care.

Hillis wrote:
sovietjet wrote:

Alright then, so when your child gets a serious sickness or is in an accident that requires hospitalization, I expect you to just say "well tough luck, better my child dies because the planet is overpopulated anyway. My child is not fit enough to survive!".


Oh, the two Communists are having a spat! :duck:


The silence to your reply is deafening. ;)


Mainly because I took the comment as a light hearted joke, and also because I am not a Communist. Perhaps Hillis thought I am because of my username but I love the aircraft designs of that region and period (this is an airplane website after all right? :lol: ). I will now assume Hillis is obsessed with hills.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:19 pm

Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Hillis
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Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:56 pm

casinterest wrote:
the CBO just made Trump and company liars again.

24 million will lose health insurance by 2026 under Trumpcare

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/poli ... /99117332/


Under WeDontCare:

-14 Million more uninsured by next year than under ACA.
-By 2026, 52 million under WeDontCare would be uninsured, compared to 28 million under ACA.
-Medicaid would be cut by $880 billion by 2026.
-The wealthy receive huge tax cuts, even as more Americans can't buy insurance.

This is the "mercy" Paul Ryan was talking about? The man should be drawn and quartered.
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Hillis
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Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:19 pm

Image

Image
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DDR
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Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:45 pm

Hillis, you are so out of touch. No one uses Vaseline anymore. KY is much better as a lube. Trump Care will be issuing free samples to all those who are affected by the new health care plan. And if you are a woman and get raped, we will need for you to go ahead and give birth. Abortions are wrong. The Trump has spoken and so it is so.
 
Hillis
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Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:54 pm

DDR wrote:
Hillis, you are so out of touch. No one uses Vaseline anymore. KY is much better as a lube. Trump Care will be issuing free samples to all those who are affected by the new health care plan. And if you are a woman and get raped, we will need for you to go ahead and give birth. Abortions are wrong. The Trump has spoken and so it is so.


Image
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apodino
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Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:06 am

A couple of comments about the CBO report.

The reason they anticipate less people being covered is because the individual mandate goes away, and most of the people who will no longer be covered are people who will choose not to be covered rather than buy insurance. Being uninsured is currently illegal without paying a fine.

Under the bill before congress, the deficit would be reduced by over 300 Billion Dollars.

Let me be clear, I want everyone to have access to healthcare. The problem is that Obamacare isn't the answer, and while this bill is trying to correct the problems that Obamacare caused, it has a lot of flaws itself. I think the biggest problem is we are trying to solve healthcare at a federal level legislatively. The only way I think you are truly going to fix healthcare is for the states to take over and each pass their own reform. Maybe the law that needs to be passed instead of creating new federal programs and more bureaucrats should be something simple like requiring each state to pass its own law to provide coverage to their people. Massachusetts did this with a republican governor for crying out loud. And what I really don't understand is that most liberals say they are for a single payer system. Ok. California currently has a Democratic Governor and a supermajority in the Legislature. Why cant they pass single payer in California? Hawaii is the same way. Washington state and Oregon are both Blue, why cant they pass it? Rhode Island, Vermont, Connecticut? If the left was serious about single payer, there should be at least 10 states by my count that should have it based on voting patterns. And in Colorado, they had single payer on the Ballot for pete's sake and Planned Parenthood fought it? I don't get it at all.
 
Hillis
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Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:22 am

apodino wrote:
A couple of comments about the CBO report.

The reason they anticipate less people being covered is because the individual mandate goes away, and most of the people who will no longer be covered are people who will choose not to be covered rather than buy insurance. Being uninsured is currently illegal without paying a fine.


Wrong. Most people won't be covered because they will be priced out of the market. The poorest are going to see their subsidies drastically cut, and the oldest Americans are going to see their deductables go up by as much as 75%. That's simply not acceptable.

apodino wrote:
nder the bill before congress, the deficit would be reduced by over 300 Billion Dollars.


So what? The reason it's going down is because there won't be as much assistance for those who really need it. What good does reducing the deficit like actually achieve if people are dying because they can't afford health care?

apodino wrote:
Let me be clear, I want everyone to have access to healthcare.


I'm not convinced of that, to be honest.

apodino wrote:
The problem is that Obamacare isn't the answer, and while this bill is trying to correct the problems that Obamacare caused, it has a lot of flaws itself.


Throwing 24 million people out of healthcare coverage isn't fixing anything. What good is a healthcare plan when millions can't afford it? For all the bitching the right does about ACA, because of it more people are covered than every before. That's no small deal. This plan is an insult to most Americans, and for Paul Ryan to call it an "act of mercy" is one of the most disgusting comments I've ever heard any poltiician make.

apodino wrote:
I think the biggest problem is we are trying to solve healthcare at a federal level legislatively. The only way I think you are truly going to fix healthcare is for the states to take over and each pass their own reform.

Maybe the law that needs to be passed instead of creating new federal programs and more bureaucrats should be something simple like requiring each state to pass its own law to provide coverage to their people.


Jesus H. Christ, the states can't afford it! Why do you think more than half the states took the Medicaid expansion? Because it helps take the burden off of the states. The states can't even afford to take care of infrastructure, education and their other obligations, and you want to dump health care on them? That's a recipe for disaster for every state in the Union.

apodino wrote:
And what I really don't understand is that most liberals say they are for a single payer system. Ok. California currently has a Democratic Governor and a supermajority in the Legislature. Why cant they pass single payer in California? Hawaii is the same way. Washington state and Oregon are both Blue, why cant they pass it? Rhode Island, Vermont, Connecticut? If the left was serious about single payer, there should be at least 10 states by my count that should have it based on voting patterns. And in Colorado, they had single payer on the Ballot for pete's sake and Planned Parenthood fought it? I don't get it at all.


They don't pass it because THEY CAN'T AFFORD IT! What part of that is not registering with you? Good God, man, wake up. If this is passed as-is, it will be a healthcare nightmare in this nation the likes of which we've never seen!
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MaverickM11
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Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Tue Mar 14, 2017 12:55 am

Hillis wrote:
-14 Million more uninsured by next year than under ACA.
-By 2026, 52 million under WeDontCare would be uninsured, compared to 28 million under ACA.
-Medicaid would be cut by $880 billion by 2026.
-The wealthy receive huge tax cuts, even as more Americans can't buy insurance.

This is the "mercy" Paul Ryan was talking about? The man should be drawn and quartered.

Fear not! Pence will be on his knees praying for you, and that's basically the same thing as health care right?
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
salttee
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Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:05 am

apodino wrote:
The reason they anticipate less people being covered is because the individual mandate goes away, and most of the people who will no longer be covered are people who will choose not to be covered rather than buy insurance.
Utter nonsense.

Why would any rational person other than a young healthy multimillionaire ever want to go without healthcare insurance? And anyone other than a multimillionaire who goes without insurance is just avoiding responsibility for their own healthcare, if they get sick (and some percentage of them will get sick), it will be the hospitals and the doctors who get stiffed, but of course the costs will really be passed on to the general public.

apodino wrote:
Under the bill before congress, the deficit would be reduced by over 300 Billion Dollars.

If you want to reduce the deficit you should address that head on, not enmesh it with healthcare, those are separate subjects. If you really want to keep the deficit down you should become outspoken against the US penchant for engaging in senseless unwinnable wars, several of which are currently being advocated by the Trump administration (China, Iran, N. Korea and Islam.) Senseless wars are the reason we have a substantial public debt, not healthcare!

apodino wrote:
Obamacare isn't the answer, and while this bill is trying to correct the problems that Obamacare caused, it has a lot of flaws itself.

Neither Obamacare nor Trumpcare can fix the US healthcare problems, they are systematic, and built into the paradigm that the AMA has pushed on us. All Obamacare did was to provide a way to address the economic aspect of our healthcare paradigm. It provided a system where as many people as economically possible were brought under the tent of insurance coverage, and the Obama administration faced the problem honestly by developing a system that actually works, as painful as it is. Trumpcare or Ryancare is dishonesty; it is trying to hide the fact that their solution to the healthcare "problem" is just going to dump the problem back on the nation's emergency rooms as it was in 2008, much to everyone's detriment.

apodino wrote:
I think the biggest problem is we are trying to solve healthcare at a federal level legislatively. The only way I think you are truly going to fix healthcare is for the states to take over and each pass their own reform.
That is completely illogical on its face.
"Good genes, very good genes, Ok, very smart, the Wharton School of finance, very good, very smart."
 
Hillis
Topic Author
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Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:18 am

MaverickM11 wrote:
Hillis wrote:
-14 Million more uninsured by next year than under ACA.
-By 2026, 52 million under WeDontCare would be uninsured, compared to 28 million under ACA.
-Medicaid would be cut by $880 billion by 2026.
-The wealthy receive huge tax cuts, even as more Americans can't buy insurance.

This is the "mercy" Paul Ryan was talking about? The man should be drawn and quartered.

Fear not! Pence will be on his knees praying for you, and that's basically the same thing as health care right?


Pence is on his knees, all right, but it's in front of Trump, and he isn't praying.
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MSPNWA
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Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:19 am

casinterest wrote:
the CBO just made Trump and company liars again.


The only liar is the CBO. They've proven themselves to be very inaccurate with a partisan bias in their projections. We can essentially flush their numbers down the toilet. It's recklessly dangerous to take their numbers as gospel.
 
salttee
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Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Tue Mar 14, 2017 1:29 am

MSPNWA wrote:
The only liar is the CBO. They've proven themselves to be very inaccurate with a partisan bias in their projections.


May I see your source for this?
"Good genes, very good genes, Ok, very smart, the Wharton School of finance, very good, very smart."
 
apodino
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Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:07 am

Hillis wrote:
apodino wrote:
A couple of comments about the CBO report.

The reason they anticipate less people being covered is because the individual mandate goes away, and most of the people who will no longer be covered are people who will choose not to be covered rather than buy insurance. Being uninsured is currently illegal without paying a fine.


Wrong. Most people won't be covered because they will be priced out of the market. The poorest are going to see their subsidies drastically cut, and the oldest Americans are going to see their deductables go up by as much as 75%. That's simply not acceptable.


It is already happening with or without the bill before congress. My premiums continue to go up, and my plans get worse and worse with no opportunity to buy better coverage for me and my family. That is with the current law in place. I agree with you, this trend is not acceptable. Obamacare doesn't do anything about it, and I believe made the problem worse.

Hillis wrote:
apodino wrote:
nder the bill before congress, the deficit would be reduced by over 300 Billion Dollars.


So what? The reason it's going down is because there won't be as much assistance for those who really need it. What good does reducing the deficit like actually achieve if people are dying because they can't afford health care?


Because when you balance the budget, you don't have to borrow money or raise taxes, which allows us to keep more of what we earn. This makes it more likely that more people can afford health care.

Hillis wrote:
apodino wrote:
Let me be clear, I want everyone to have access to healthcare.


I'm not convinced of that, to be honest.

I am never going to convince you of this. That being said, I can tell you that I give a lot of money to Charity. I am CPR and First Aid certified. I have volunteered my time to help the sick in the past. I have many friends who are physicians. The list goes on and on. I have been accused of many things, but not caring isn't one of them.

Hillis wrote:
apodino wrote:
The problem is that Obamacare isn't the answer, and while this bill is trying to correct the problems that Obamacare caused, it has a lot of flaws itself.


Throwing 24 million people out of healthcare coverage isn't fixing anything. What good is a healthcare plan when millions can't afford it? For all the bitching the right does about ACA, because of it more people are covered than every before. That's no small deal. This plan is an insult to most Americans, and for Paul Ryan to call it an "act of mercy" is one of the most disgusting comments I've ever heard any poltiician make.

Being covered is one thing, but not being able to use the coverage because of the high deductibles is another thing. Yes more people have insurance. What good is it with the deductibles being so high that people have to take out second mortgages to use them. The biggest issue here is not greedy insurance companies, the biggest issue is the actual cost of things like hospital stays, and tests and stuff like that. None of this was addressed in the health care law. If we want to see real reform, focus here and not on insurance.

Hillis wrote:
apodino wrote:
I think the biggest problem is we are trying to solve healthcare at a federal level legislatively. The only way I think you are truly going to fix healthcare is for the states to take over and each pass their own reform.

Maybe the law that needs to be passed instead of creating new federal programs and more bureaucrats should be something simple like requiring each state to pass its own law to provide coverage to their people.


Jesus H. Christ, the states can't afford it! Why do you think more than half the states took the Medicaid expansion? Because it helps take the burden off of the states. The states can't even afford to take care of infrastructure, education and their other obligations, and you want to dump health care on them? That's a recipe for disaster for every state in the Union.

And the federal government can afford it? We have huge deficits and Trillions of dollars of debt already? The government would have to borrow money to pay for all this. The issue is that at a certain point people are going to stop lending to the Government, and then we will be in real trouble, as the fixes would be far worse than this bill.

Hillis wrote:
apodino wrote:
And what I really don't understand is that most liberals say they are for a single payer system. Ok. California currently has a Democratic Governor and a supermajority in the Legislature. Why cant they pass single payer in California? Hawaii is the same way. Washington state and Oregon are both Blue, why cant they pass it? Rhode Island, Vermont, Connecticut? If the left was serious about single payer, there should be at least 10 states by my count that should have it based on voting patterns. And in Colorado, they had single payer on the Ballot for pete's sake and Planned Parenthood fought it? I don't get it at all.


They don't pass it because THEY CAN'T AFFORD IT! What part of that is not registering with you? Good God, man, wake up. If this is passed as-is, it will be a healthcare nightmare in this nation the likes of which we've never seen!
[/quote]
I don't disagree with your post at all, but I pose a question based off of your post. If the States cannot afford to pass a single payer plan, how can the federal government with the deficits it is running up? Whether you realize it or not, you have made the argument against a single payer system beautifully.

I am of the opinion that more of a lot of things should be done at the state level. The problem is everything has been shifted to the federal level, and the State politicians use federal money to bolster their states budgets so it gives the illusion that they are not raising taxes.
 
apodino
Posts: 3114
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2005 2:11 am

Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:20 am

salttee wrote:
apodino wrote:
The reason they anticipate less people being covered is because the individual mandate goes away, and most of the people who will no longer be covered are people who will choose not to be covered rather than buy insurance.
Utter nonsense.

Why would any rational person other than a young healthy multimillionaire ever want to go without healthcare insurance? And anyone other than a multimillionaire who goes without insurance is just avoiding responsibility for their own healthcare, if they get sick (and some percentage of them will get sick), it will be the hospitals and the doctors who get stiffed, but of course the costs will really be passed on to the general public.

Key word in that paragraph is rational person. We have a lot of people in this country who are not rational. I suspect that most of the rational people will still choose to stay insured.

salttee wrote:
apodino wrote:
Under the bill before congress, the deficit would be reduced by over 300 Billion Dollars.

If you want to reduce the deficit you should address that head on, not enmesh it with healthcare, those are separate subjects. If you really want to keep the deficit down you should become outspoken against the US penchant for engaging in senseless unwinnable wars, several of which are currently being advocated by the Trump administration (China, Iran, N. Korea and Islam.) Senseless wars are the reason we have a substantial public debt, not healthcare!

You will get no argument from me on the topic of wars. I agree with the left on this issue. We don't need to spend more than the next 20 countries combined to defend this country. Iraq was a big mistake, thanks to Dick Cheney, one of the worst VPs I have ever seen. That being said though, more debt was run up under the Obama administration than any other administration in history, so there is clearly more to the debt than just the Wars, though they didn't help.

salttee wrote:
apodino wrote:
Obamacare isn't the answer, and while this bill is trying to correct the problems that Obamacare caused, it has a lot of flaws itself.

Neither Obamacare nor Trumpcare can fix the US healthcare problems, they are systematic, and built into the paradigm that the AMA has pushed on us. All Obamacare did was to provide a way to address the economic aspect of our healthcare paradigm. It provided a system where as many people as economically possible were brought under the tent of insurance coverage, and the Obama administration faced the problem honestly by developing a system that actually works, as painful as it is. Trumpcare or Ryancare is dishonesty; it is trying to hide the fact that their solution to the healthcare "problem" is just going to dump the problem back on the nation's emergency rooms as it was in 2008, much to everyone's detriment.

I don't agree with you on what Obamacare did. If you force someone to buy a product, of course the stats are going to show that more people are covered. That makes sense. What isn't addressed is a few issues. Why are so many insurers dropping off the exchanges? Will anyone be left on the exchanges who will actually provide coverage? Why are many doctors not accepting insurance on the exchanges? Why are premiums continuing to spike? Why are deductibles so high? Why isn't the actual cost of healthcare addressed (not the insurance costs, but the costs to actually receive healthcare)? Why isn't anything being done about prescription drug costs? None of these were addressed in Obamacare, and none are being addressed by this legislation. In fact the only person I have heard speak on this recently is Trump, who says he wants to negotiate lower prices.


salttee wrote:
apodino wrote:
I think the biggest problem is we are trying to solve healthcare at a federal level legislatively. The only way I think you are truly going to fix healthcare is for the states to take over and each pass their own reform.
That is completely illogical on its face.

How so? While Mitt Romney was governor of Massachusetts, MA did exactly what I just said. They reformed healthcare. It was done in a bipartisan way, it was not controversial, and it still enjoys broad bipartisan support in MA even years later. It is very popular. There is no reason other states can not follow MA lead on this and do their own reform. I think we would be better off as a nation this way. I just don't think this is a problem that the federal government can solve. Even in Canada, health care is handled at the provincial level, and not the national level.
 
MSPNWA
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Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:02 am

salttee wrote:
May I see your source for this?

Google is your friend.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15714
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 1:59 pm

Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:20 am

MSPNWA wrote:
salttee wrote:
May I see your source for this?

Google is your friend.

LOL Trumpanzees never bother with sources. "Google is your friend" = you got nothin. By the way here's a few of the many times your buddy was honkin' about how the CBO's numbers were to be trusted for whatever he was pushing. But it must be another case of "may have been phony in the past, but it's very real now", right?

Image
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
salttee
Posts: 1194
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Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:38 am

MSPNWA wrote:
salttee wrote:
May I see your source for this?

Google is your friend.


So you engage in making completely unsupported allegations.
That's not surprising at all knowing your posting history. You probably think saying "Google is your friend" is an intelligent thing to say.
"Good genes, very good genes, Ok, very smart, the Wharton School of finance, very good, very smart."
 
tommy1808
Posts: 5814
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Tue Mar 14, 2017 4:42 am

DDR wrote:
Hillis, you are so out of touch. No one uses Vaseline anymore. KY is much better as a lube.


You are assuming he doesn't want it to hurt.....?!?

Best regards
Thomas
Crooked Donald Trump an his team are extremely careless in their handling of very sensitive, highly classified information. Not fit! #muchworsethanclinton
 
seb146
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Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Tue Mar 14, 2017 5:01 am

The party of Jesus and all lives matter and looking out for working Americans strikes again. I actually heard one of these Trumpettes on the radio today say "why should I have to insure these people who are too lazy or can not afford insurance?" There is your problem right there. If we can not afford health care or health insurance now, guess what will happen if this piece of garbage passes?

Another tweet I saw said something like "R. I. P. now stands for Republican Insurance Plan."
Patriotic and Proud Liberal
 
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DDR
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Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:50 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
DDR wrote:
Hillis, you are so out of touch. No one uses Vaseline anymore. KY is much better as a lube.


You are assuming he doesn't want it to hurt.....?!?

Best regards
Thomas


LOL I hadn't thought of that!
 
Hillis
Topic Author
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Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:37 pm

One thing that very few are commeting on is that the fact is this isn't about more healthcare for more Americans. It's simply another way for the Republican Party to give huge tax breaks to the wealthiest Americans at the expense of everyone else. That's what it's for.

Republicans are still so in love with supply-side and trickle down, even though it's been proven time and time again that simply giving huge tax breaks to the wealthy does not boost the economy. Ask Kansas and Louisiana how they're doing after Trickle-Down on steroids.
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DLFREEBIRD
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Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Fri Mar 17, 2017 6:54 pm

people have extremely short memories.
 
MaverickM11
Posts: 15714
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Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Sat Mar 18, 2017 2:21 am

I'm beginning to think that between Trumpcare and his budget targeting his supporters, he's trying to kill his supporters. On the bright side think of the healthcare savings when you're dead! #praiseHim
E pur si muove -Galileo
 
MSPNWA
Posts: 2163
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Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:45 am

MaverickM11 wrote:
LOL Trumpanzees never bother with sources. "Google is your friend" = you got nothin. By the way here's a few of the many times your buddy was honkin' about how the CBO's numbers were to be trusted for whatever he was pushing. But it must be another case of "may have been phony in the past, but it's very real now", right?


Do I have to spoon-feed you? There's so much out there that it's more that a person could list in a post. Have some self-dignity and use the the most powerful tool you have--your favorite search engine.

salttee wrote:
So you engage in making completely unsupported allegations.
That's not surprising at all knowing your posting history. You probably think saying "Google is your friend" is an intelligent thing to say.


A simple Google search will prove your own counter-allegation completely false. But I know you will try to avoid doing that since you know the mountains of evidence over the years is there. CBO projections routinely go off the rails in less than a year's time. They never can get a budget right very far in the future. They were way off on where new Obamacare enrollment would come from. A 10 year projection for Obamacare 2.0 enrollment? Throw it out the window.

BTW, recommending that means of sourcing is by no means a complement to the poster receiving it.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 5814
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Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Sat Mar 18, 2017 7:54 am

MSPNWA wrote:
Do I have to spoon-feed you? There's so much out there that it's more that a person could list in a post. Have some self-dignity and use the the most powerful tool you


Since you don't seem to understand the forum rules, they do require you to spoon feed him your sources, there isn't a reason to think that you did understand those many sources correctly.

And when one does Google, it becomes clear that you didn't, because the first link that comes up already shows that you, like pretty much all trump supporters, are just a compulsive liar. Just like your president.

http://www.factcheck.org/2017/03/cbos-o ... -accurate/

Best regards
Thomas
Crooked Donald Trump an his team are extremely careless in their handling of very sensitive, highly classified information. Not fit! #muchworsethanclinton
 
User avatar
einsteinboricua
Posts: 5507
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2010 4:11 pm

Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Sat Mar 18, 2017 1:39 pm

MSPNWA wrote:
There's so much out there that it's more that a person could list in a post.

Then you shoudn't have any problem listing one or two of these items that are apparently missed by us and can be seen only by you.
"You haven't seen a tree until you've seen its shadow from the sky."
 
Hillis
Topic Author
Posts: 1304
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 6:19 pm

Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Sat Mar 18, 2017 3:51 pm

einsteinboricua wrote:
MSPNWA wrote:
There's so much out there that it's more that a person could list in a post.

Then you shoudn't have any problem listing one or two of these items that are apparently missed by us and can be seen only by you.


You're literally talking to a brick wall, einsteinboricua. Others have asked him for one or two sources on things in the past, and he's always failed to deliver. Or, at best, he pulls up a link to breitbart or infowars. He's a troll. I think he believe all the crap he puts out here,but he's also a troll.
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Ken777
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Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Sun Mar 19, 2017 2:16 am

I've said it before, but ENDING Cost Shifting should be the core goal of any government health program. Anyone confused about define Cost Shifting just needs to spend a few hours watching in a big city ER. Try to guess who doesn't have insurance and are about to build up a big medical bill, $1,000 minimum. With no insurance you can be sure that those coats will be shifted to insurance companies and then to polity holders. Until Cost Shifting is ended there will continue to be cost shifting that generates unnecessary (and painful) inflation in health care.

ObamaCare provided the first step in lowering cost shifting with expansion of Medicaid. If states had pushed for Medicaid for everyone not covered by other insurance then cost shifting would be eliminated.

Sadly Trump and the Billionaire Boys Club are moving 24 million lower income Americans back to the old cost shifting status.

Now guess what is going to happen to health care costs.
 
salttee
Posts: 1194
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Mon Mar 20, 2017 4:14 am

Sorta earthshaking news in the Trumpcare story:

Things have been cruising along just fine until now, Ryan has been standing behind a plan that was sure to please no one, so it was looking like Obamacare might have to stay in place for a while. Cheers to that. But we've encountered a disruption; Paul Ryan has caved in to the less hard core faction and now promises to amend his proposal apparently at the suggestion of Donald Trump: they now plan to increase benefits for the elderly. But they don't have it quite worked out yet so not only the details are missing but we don't even know what the scope being considered considered yet is.

It's going to get interesting when they release the actual plan; even small doses of this will change the economic impact greatly and not in a direction the tea party types will like. Now we are going to have to wait for a new OMB appraisal. A House vote on this was scheduled for Thursday, but they can't possibly vote on it without OMB data. I suspect that once they get the OMB data it wouldn't make any sense to put it up for a vote because it would fail without the tea party votes.

IMO, they're stalled. Obamacare reigns!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/federal_government/ryan-more-help-for-older-people-needed-in-gop-health-bill/2017/03/19/b0296456-0d16-11e7-aa57-2ca1b05c41b8_story.html?utm_term=.84d85be6ac14
"Good genes, very good genes, Ok, very smart, the Wharton School of finance, very good, very smart."
 
BestWestern
Posts: 7589
Joined: Fri Sep 08, 2000 8:46 pm

Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Tue Mar 21, 2017 3:15 pm

Freedom caucus response to the changes... meh...
Greetings from Hong Kong.... a subsidiary of China Inc.
 
Hillis
Topic Author
Posts: 1304
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 6:19 pm

Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Tue Mar 21, 2017 10:19 pm

salttee wrote:
Sorta earthshaking news in the Trumpcare story:

Things have been cruising along just fine until now, Ryan has been standing behind a plan that was sure to please no one, so it was looking like Obamacare might have to stay in place for a while. Cheers to that. But we've encountered a disruption; Paul Ryan has caved in to the less hard core faction and now promises to amend his proposal apparently at the suggestion of Donald Trump: they now plan to increase benefits for the elderly. But they don't have it quite worked out yet so not only the details are missing but we don't even know what the scope being considered considered yet is.

It's going to get interesting when they release the actual plan; even small doses of this will change the economic impact greatly and not in a direction the tea party types will like. Now we are going to have to wait for a new OMB appraisal. A House vote on this was scheduled for Thursday, but they can't possibly vote on it without OMB data. I suspect that once they get the OMB data it wouldn't make any sense to put it up for a vote because it would fail without the tea party votes.

IMO, they're stalled. Obamacare reigns!

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/federal_government/ryan-more-help-for-older-people-needed-in-gop-health-bill/2017/03/19/b0296456-0d16-11e7-aa57-2ca1b05c41b8_story.html?utm_term=.84d85be6ac14


They've had SEVEN freaking years to come up with a counter to the ACA, and they can't even figure it out. I simply believe it shows they can't govern in any way, shape or form. And when they do come out with soemthing for health care, it is another giveaway for the wealthy at the expense of everyone else, and it's only a handful of pages.

Republicans are not deep thinkers, are they?
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User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 4125
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Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:50 am

MSPNWA wrote:
CBO projections routinely go off the rails in less than a year's time. They never can get a budget right very far in the future. They were way off on where new Obamacare enrollment would come from. A 10 year projection for Obamacare 2.0 enrollment? Throw it out the window.


Dismissal of anything that is critical of the Trump administration has become standard M.O. for the Trump camp and adoring fans, however, it is a bit simplistic and easy.
Now, let's look at the CBO with a little more pragmatism, shall we?:

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2017/mar/12/mick-mulvaney/fact-checking-white-house-attack-nonpartisan-cbos-/

It turns out the CBO can not accurately predict the future, especially one where the parameters change a lot in a short time... shocker.

But whereas the CBO does not necessarily get its predictions right on the target, it tends to be always right on trends and is generally more accurate than the predictions of any other government or political group, parties included.

So, first of all, if you are going to dismiss the CBO's predictions, then, if you adhere to your own logic, you must also dismiss the Republican party's predictions as they are historically worse than those of the CBO (ditto the Democratic party's predictions).

Secondly, the CBO might not get its number rights, but the trend and very broad outlook tend to be correct. The CBO didn't accurately predict how many more people would be insured under the ACA, but it did predict that many more would be, and many more were.
Consequently, if the CBO now predicts that the GOP's 'best plan ever' would lead to 24 million American losing coverage, then you can safely assume that A LOT of Americans will lose coverage. It may be 14 million, or it may be 34 million, but what is certain is that less Americans will be covered, and the same goes for their prediction of generally higher premiums, save for a few groups.
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seb146
Posts: 15024
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Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:59 am

The orange menace is threatening his own party that if they don't pass this money grab for the wealthy, they will lose in the mid-term elections. But, if they pass this money grab for the wealthy, they will lose in the mid-term elections because of all the voters who will lose health care. Even members of the far right of the Republican party in Congress hate this "replacement" plan. Good job! "Liberals" and far right wingers finally agree on something! This "replacement" is junk!
Patriotic and Proud Liberal
 
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casinterest
Posts: 5630
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Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:23 pm

seb146 wrote:
The orange menace is threatening his own party that if they don't pass this money grab for the wealthy, they will lose in the mid-term elections. But, if they pass this money grab for the wealthy, they will lose in the mid-term elections because of all the voters who will lose health care. Even members of the far right of the Republican party in Congress hate this "replacement" plan. Good job! "Liberals" and far right wingers finally agree on something! This "replacement" is junk!


Today, on the 7th anniversary of President Barack Obama signing into law The Affordable Care Act(obamacare), the House of Representatives has postponed their vote on Trumpcare.

Trumpcare: A piece of legislation that was so fantastic that they can't even get the GOP to agree to it, after 7 years and 50+ bills to repeal The ACA(Obamacare).

Talk about a failure for Paul Ryan, Donald Trump, and the Tea Party.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
Hillis
Topic Author
Posts: 1304
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Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Thu Mar 23, 2017 8:50 pm

casinterest wrote:
seb146 wrote:
The orange menace is threatening his own party that if they don't pass this money grab for the wealthy, they will lose in the mid-term elections. But, if they pass this money grab for the wealthy, they will lose in the mid-term elections because of all the voters who will lose health care. Even members of the far right of the Republican party in Congress hate this "replacement" plan. Good job! "Liberals" and far right wingers finally agree on something! This "replacement" is junk!


Today, on the 7th anniversary of President Barack Obama signing into law The Affordable Care Act(obamacare), the House of Representatives has postponed their vote on Trumpcare.

Trumpcare: A piece of legislation that was so fantastic that they can't even get the GOP to agree to it, after 7 years and 50+ bills to repeal The ACA(Obamacare).

Talk about a failure for Paul Ryan, Donald Trump, and the Tea Party.


A failure for conservatism in America and the Republican Party as well. It's mind-blowing that they've been complaning about this proposal/law for 8 years now, saying how bad it is. And yet, in 8 YEARS they can't put together a new proposal that can do what ACA does. And what do we get? 123 pages telling us basically that the poor and the elderly will have to struggle just to afford health care, that it's nothing more than another huge tax break for the wealthy, and that the insurance companies will still be able to gouge consumers.

That's the best they can do, after 8 years? A horrible plan, only 123 pages long? It shows they aren't deep thinkers, and it shows they have no business governing.
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einsteinboricua
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Re: From Obamacare To "Wedontcare"

Thu Mar 23, 2017 9:19 pm

Don't be surprised if there's a midnight-predawn vote on this sometime in the weekend..a surprise vote. We'll wake up Saturday or Sunday and find that the House either passed or sunk the bill. Of course, there's still the Senate. As long as the filibuster is there, the bill is dead on arrival. But let's assume enough moderates join cloture for the sake of having a final vote, not because they agree...it only takes three Republicans to sink the bill in the Senate and last count had 8 GOP Senators saying "No".

It must really be something special to have been whining for years about how awful the ACA is and choke when you finally have the power to repeal it for sure. But we're supposed to accept that it's Democrats who don't know how to govern, right?

Oh...don't forget about her emails...very important.
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