Hillis
Topic Author
Posts: 975
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 6:19 pm

GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:11 am

Basically, they would punish those states that expanded medicare. They would have insurance bought through "savings accoutns", which most Americans won't be able to use because they don't have the money. And fewer people would be insured.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/16/us/p ... -news&_r=0

This is what you get when you put in power a political party that hates its own people, and don't give a damn who lives or dies. Obamacare is far from perfect, but it headed in the right direction. Now, these rich, out-of-touch Fascists are going to eviscerate health care in America.

Make America Sick Again.
Peace
 
rfields5421
Posts: 5792
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:25 am

On this one I have to say you are right.

How does a political party that things an ideal job pays under the poverty level is going to be able to put money into a health care savings account. They already put most of their money in to their health. It is called buying food.

While I personally like the idea that healthcare health insurance should be portable across state borders (I.e. You could buy health insurance from a company in another state, and healthcare coverage should not be limited to one state as it is many policies) that is not going to be passed.

I can already see the lawsuit Texas governor and attorney general will file about such a "infringement of states rights"

As they will also file lawsuits against Medicaid cuts as an unfunded federal mandate.

The details from a couple other articles seem to set this proposal up as a fight between Republican Congressmen and Republican State Legislators.

I hope they get trashed when these Congressmen go home with this dumb proposal before the public.
 
User avatar
Francoflier
Posts: 3971
Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2001 12:27 pm

Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:02 am

I'm curious to know what the republican governors of the states concerned will make of it when they have to chose between taxing their constituents more or telling some of them to go look for a graveyard plot.
(We all know what they'll chose to do...)
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 8300
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:48 pm

Despite reading a lot about it, hearing from relatives who immigrated to the US, taking every precaution (special insurance) when my young sister spent two summers in the US, I still can't really grasp what it's like to live in the US and have to worry about health care all the time.

Here in France I know that I could be in dire straits, literally living on the streets, and I would still get a cancer treatment if I needed one. Being covered or not is not something I ever think about.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
rfields5421
Posts: 5792
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:28 pm

I doubt most people in the US worry about healthcare all the time.

By their very nature most single people under 30-35 years of age don't worry about healthcare. They simply don't believe they need insurance, they aren't going to get sick, healthcare is something for old people.

Young parents who do not work for a company with a good health insurance plan worry about healthcare. Kids need to go to the doctor for various relatively minor things. A few doctor visits with health insurance can make an entire year's wages disappear quickly.

Older people worry about their health, and have the experience to know that no matter what insurance they have, a major illness could wipe out their savings and leave them destitute.

Major illnesses for the young are a bit different. If you are really seriously sick, or injured - you will be able to find some health care for your condition (except mental illness).

The taxpayers and people with health insurance and the stockholders of hospitals end up paying for the care.

In a large city region like Dallas - there is a major public hospital funded by taxpayers - Parkland. There are also several excellent hospitals operated by religious institutions. Those will not turn away a patient who needs care for lack of funds.

In rural areas such as Columbia County Arkansas where I grew up, population under 25,000, there is one for profit hospital. It won't turn someone away, but from time to time that hospital has gone to the county government and threatened to close if the county doesn't provide some extra money to help cover their costs of treating the un-insured. The state of Texas estimates that half of the county level rural hospitals have closed due to the cost of treating uninsured patients.

When the nearest hospital is 140 miles / 225 miles away and a person has a heart condition- they worry.

That is the big debate / issue which the Republicans are just realizing they have messed up.

Millions of their supporters believe their promise that Obamacare will be repealed. They also believe the complete fiction that health insurance/ health care will return to what it was before 2009.

At least 20 million people who got health insurance the first time under Obamacare know the Republicans plan is to leave them with no health insurance. The jobs they have don't have employer sponsored health insurance available. Many make a total income under $40,000 per year despite working an average 60 hours a week at 2 or 3 jobs.

Probably another 20 million who think repealing Obamacare will make their health insurance more affordable don't realize the industry has changed and their costs will go up significantly, if they are able to get any health insurance. Probably half of them will lose their ability to buy any insurance.

Then there is the divide in the Republican Party. A large number of the Republicans in the House are set and determined to not allow passage/ funding of any bill that helps provide healthcare to anyone.

A few Republicans in the House and most Republicans in the Senate along with President Trump realize that they cannot simply remove Obamacare. They have to provide a replacement plan which offers insurance coverage to the 20-40 million people.

The worry about healthcare is about the uncertainty of what changes are going to occur in the next few years.

The people of this country, the doctors and hospitals, the insurance companies didn't like everything about Obamacare, but they had learned to live with it.

None know what Trump care will be - and are worried.
 
bhill
Posts: 1372
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2001 8:28 am

Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:05 pm

If the GP flat dump it, it will be like removing the control rods on a reactor, 5 years of very controlled profits.....And add to that most of the millions that now have it do not make enough to afford the HSA's and high deductible plans. And the tax credits? Right...With all the cash the GOP is going to give from the Treasury, why not just use those tax dollars for a single payer anyway?
Carpe Pices
 
User avatar
casinterest
Posts: 5476
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 5:30 am

Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:31 pm

The GOP has a problem here. They ran for 8 years against the Affordable Care act, and voted to repeal it multiple times. They now have to deliver to their red blooded base the "Better Plan". However they have 2 very real problems in doing so.

1. Healthcare Coverage is higher than it has been in many years. Changes in the fee structure will leave many without coverage , especially if they move to a "Free Market" Health savings account. As RFields5421 pointed out. People that can't afford healthcare will just choose food, which drives the costs up for everyone, as they will still get sick and be unable to foot the bill.
2. They can't stop the "costs " issues without destroying either the free market or state level control of licensing and options for healthcare.

It's quite a pickle. But the GOP has backed themselves into a corner where they must repeal and replace to appease their base. Even Paul Ryan has said so.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 6273
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:17 pm

They have one huge problem really (well two):
They don't want to remove the "must accept" rule requiring insurance companies to take people with preexisting conditions, but they do want to remove "everybody must buy into it" requirement, the government mandate that the Republicans came up with years ago. You must have both or neither or else the system falls apart (and no a "high risk pool" won't work as it needs huge funding as well which the Republicans will or at least appear to refuse to agree to).

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
rfields5421
Posts: 5792
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:32 pm

I suspect that the TrumpCare bill will

1) Not be anything that Trump likes, but will always carry his name;

2) There will be negotiated deals to allow some Republicans to vote against the bill, but still ensure passage. Those under the most voter pressure will be allowed to vote against the measure so that they can have a chance to hold onto their Congressional/ Senate position

3) Stalling and delaying might avoid a wholesale Republican defeat in 2018, but if they don't get a bill at least as "socialistic " as what is in place today, the 2020 election is going the worst defeat for the party in power in history.

4) Then it will be the Democrats problem, and they better be ready to pass something better than what is in place now.

Finally, I find morally offensive the notion that the United States is too poor to afford decent healthcare of everyone.

I find the arguments against helping the disadvantaged get healthcare an insult to the very root of Christian concepts.
 
CaliAtenza
Posts: 1637
Joined: Mon Dec 25, 2006 1:43 pm

Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:04 pm

The whole irony of this is that "Obamacare" (the ACA), is a Heritage Foundation/GOP idea.
 
rfields5421
Posts: 5792
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:34 pm

Where Obama messed up is that after the insurance and big hospital industries got their friends in Congress to revise the original proposal completely out of his desires he didn't complain. He should have been against the original ACA bacsuse it doesn't come close to his plan.

Instead he thought once we get the law on the books, we can work with Congress to fix the many problems.

He should have known the Republicans would block any effort to make ACA better.
 
User avatar
Channex757
Posts: 633
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:07 am

Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:53 pm

Aesma wrote:
Despite reading a lot about it, hearing from relatives who immigrated to the US, taking every precaution (special insurance) when my young sister spent two summers in the US, I still can't really grasp what it's like to live in the US and have to worry about health care all the time.

Here in France I know that I could be in dire straits, literally living on the streets, and I would still get a cancer treatment if I needed one. Being covered or not is not something I ever think about.

Remember the debate about "socialised" healthcare when this all started? My response at the time for my US friends was "Hell yeah, bring it on".

Unfortunately the single payer proposals were always going to be non-starters. Something akin to the French or British healthcare services which incidentally are substantially cheaper to operate. The only people here getting shafted are the American taxpayers as they were lied to by lunatics like Palin. Death panels my arse. Obamacare was/is an attempt to bridge the divide between truly effective healthcare and the desires of people to control their own plan purchasing.

Healthcare should be a right enshrined in the Constitution. Give citizens the freedom to be the best they can be, without worrying about paying doctor bills. Free taxpayers from the worry of the healthcare lottery that is private insurance and if they want to contract out of it, then so be it. Happens in Europe and elsewhere too; private medicine still flourishes.

But the biggest scandal is the US pays the most money per capita for a poor service overall. Why? Simple. Profit. Take those profits out of the system, put them back into healthcare and the overall cost drops.

Health should not be a commodity for companies to trade in.
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Posts: 10078
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:28 pm

Channex757 wrote:
Healthcare should be a right enshrined in the Constitution.


You must have flunked Civics. Healthcare is NEVER a "right", even if you live in a country with government-provided healthcare. A right involves being able to do something and not being prevented or punished for it. Speech, religion, political opinions and so forth. Healthcare involves the labor and assets of others. What you are proposing would be akin to government-provided roads, or national defense. Those are part of the social contract, where the people agree to share the cost of something so that they may live better lives (in pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness, for example).

I'll keep my arguments for or against single-payer healthcare for later - I just wanted to point out that anyone who likes to talk about "healthcare as a right" is just talking out of the most ignorant form of populism.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
11725Flyer
Posts: 424
Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 4:51 pm

Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:58 pm

Let's not forget an amazing moment concerning Obamacare. Nancy Pelosi infamously said, "But we have to pass the [health care] bill so that you can find out what’s in it....”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV-05TLiiLU

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/po ... e92f8a2c65
 
User avatar
WarRI1
Posts: 9315
Joined: Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:51 am

Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:05 am

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/j ... ans-235303

I have to agree with this man who I have never agreed with before. Just like was said by Obama and H. Clinton fix it, do not destroy it. Boehner knows they have nothing and will try to repackage Obama Care. :eek: :shock:
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 4635
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:52 am

Dreadnought wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
Healthcare should be a right enshrined in the Constitution.


You must have flunked Civics. Healthcare is NEVER a "right", even if you live in a country with government-provided healthcare.


You must have flunked the last 50 years or so. Healthcare is a right, to the extend that you can go to jail for not treating an emergency case. Getting your Viagra may not be a human right, but getting healthcare certainly is. Oh wait, i live in a country where even Viagra can be a human right.... (Az.: 10 E 5407/01, Court of Claims Frankfurt).

best regards
Thomas
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Posts: 10078
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:39 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Dreadnought wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
Healthcare should be a right enshrined in the Constitution.


You must have flunked Civics. Healthcare is NEVER a "right", even if you live in a country with government-provided healthcare.


You must have flunked the last 50 years or so. Healthcare is a right, to the extend that you can go to jail for not treating an emergency case. Getting your Viagra may not be a human right, but getting healthcare certainly is. Oh wait, i live in a country where even Viagra can be a human right.... (Az.: 10 E 5407/01, Court of Claims Frankfurt).

best regards
Thomas


Maybe your mistake is that of language. I assume German is your native language. A right is the sovereignty to act without the permission of others. A right carries with it an implicit, unstated footnote: you may exercise your rights as long as you do not violate the same rights of another - within this context, rights are an absolute. A right must be exercised through your own initiative and action. It is not a claim on the life, property, work or money of others.

Statists have corrupted the actual meaning of a right and have converted it, in the minds of the ignorant, into its opposite: into a claim on the life, property, work or money of another. Statists declare you have a "right" to housing, to a job, to health care, to an education, to a minimum wage, to preferential treatment if you are a minority and so on. These "rights" are all a claim, a lien, on your life and the lives of others. These "rights" impose a form of involuntary servitude on you and others. These "rights" force you to pay for someone’s housing, their health care, their education, for training for a job, etc.

I'm not saying that these things should not exist (at least some of them), but it is intellectually and morally wrong to call them "rights". They may be part of a social compact, a sacrifice you and others are willing to make in order to live in a better society, but to call them a right is nothing more than propaganda.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 10313
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:40 pm

rfields5421 wrote:
I doubt most people in the US worry about healthcare all the time.

By their very nature most single people under 30-35 years of age don't worry about healthcare. They simply don't believe they need insurance, they aren't going to get sick, healthcare is something for old people.

Young parents who do not work for a company with a good health insurance plan worry about healthcare. Kids need to go to the doctor for various relatively minor things. A few doctor visits with health insurance can make an entire year's wages disappear quickly.



Then they are stupid since it's young people who are more likely to have accidents and need emergency medical care, which in the US can cost a fortune, like my cousin who broke her arm in the US falling off a bike, the eventual bill was close to 60k, lucky she had good travel insurance.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 10313
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:52 pm

Dreadnought wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Dreadnought wrote:

You must have flunked Civics. Healthcare is NEVER a "right", even if you live in a country with government-provided healthcare.


You must have flunked the last 50 years or so. Healthcare is a right, to the extend that you can go to jail for not treating an emergency case. Getting your Viagra may not be a human right, but getting healthcare certainly is. Oh wait, i live in a country where even Viagra can be a human right.... (Az.: 10 E 5407/01, Court of Claims Frankfurt).

best regards
Thomas


Maybe your mistake is that of language. I assume German is your native language. A right is the sovereignty to act without the permission of others. A right carries with it an implicit, unstated footnote: you may exercise your rights as long as you do not violate the same rights of another - within this context, rights are an absolute. A right must be exercised through your own initiative and action. It is not a claim on the life, property, work or money of others.

.


Coming from you I find this about the funniest thing I've heard all month, your support of gun ownership is contradictory to what you have just said.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 4635
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:55 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Coming from you I find this about the funniest thing I've heard all month, your support of gun ownership is contradictory to what you have just said.


I was just going to say that. Thank you :)

best regards
Thomas
 
rfields5421
Posts: 5792
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:50 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
rfields5421 wrote:
I doubt most people in the US worry about healthcare all the time.

By their very nature most single people under 30-35 years of age don't worry about healthcare. They simply don't believe they need insurance, they aren't going to get sick, healthcare is something for old people.

Young parents who do not work for a company with a good health insurance plan worry about healthcare. Kids need to go to the doctor for various relatively minor things. A few doctor visits with health insurance can make an entire year's wages disappear quickly.



Then they are stupid since it's young people who are more likely to have accidents and need emergency medical care, which in the US can cost a fortune, like my cousin who broke her arm in the US falling off a bike, the eventual bill was close to 60k, lucky she had good travel insurance.


It is very easy for the young uninsured or underinsured in the US to obtain quality healthcare for accidents. And to be realistic, accidents are things that happen to other people, not a risk to "me". (Look at all the people riding motorcycles without helmets in the US)

As for the expense, those without insurance or limited insurance they simply don't pay. The public has to pick up the costs.

The leading reason for bankruptcy in the US the last figures I saw, a few years old, was due to medical bills from an accident or major illness.

In the 2000-2009 decade the leading reason for closure of
rural hospitals was uncollected debt owed for emergency medical care by people without health insurance.

Prior to the ACA the most popular health insurance policy purchased by a hose under age 35 without children was a 'high deductible ' policy. One which is very cheap, often $40 or 50 per month, but the policy would pay no expenses until the deductible of $10,000 or more was reached. One young man I know had a $50,000 deductible. He didn't have that much money or no hope of paying it if he were injured. He planned if something happened to declare bankruptcy.
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Posts: 10078
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:33 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Coming from you I find this about the funniest thing I've heard all month, your support of gun ownership is contradictory to what you have just said.


How?
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 10313
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:48 pm

Go back and read what you wrote, if you can't accept medical care as a right then how can you accept the right to carry weapons, if the right to medical care impinges on someone else's rights then it sure as heck stands to reason that your same argument is also valid for guns. You sir are a first degree black belt hippocrate.
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Posts: 10078
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:00 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Go back and read what you wrote, if you can't accept medical care as a right then how can you accept the right to carry weapons, if the right to medical care impinges on someone else's rights then it sure as heck stands to reason that your same argument is also valid for guns. You sir are a first degree black belt hippocrate.


No, but that argument makes you a grade A moron.

Carrying a gun does not bother anyone (assuming you don't go around randomly shooting people, which is illegal). Being armed is a natural right. You do it yourself. Nobody else is involved.

Medical care requires someone else do the work. Not a right. It is something somebody has to pay for, even if the doc works for free (in other words, HE pays for it).

Come on, a 3rd grader can get it.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 6273
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:26 pm

Dreadnought wrote:
Carrying a gun does not bother anyone (assuming you don't go around randomly shooting people, which is illegal). Being armed is a natural right. You do it yourself. Nobody else is involved.

So you would support a law that made it that you could not acquire ammunition, gun powder, or a firearm? That you can have one a gun and all the rest but that you must make it yourself, with no one else involved?

I am just want to earn that "A" grade you are handing out and want to see if you are earning one yourself. Again, you are arguing it be "natural" and requires no one elses participation to be an actual "right".

Because it appears money and the need to compensate others for their services is involved with the right to bear arms as much as it is involved in the right to "life", aka heath, aka healthcare.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
User avatar
Dreadnought
Posts: 10078
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 6:31 pm

Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:46 pm

Tugger wrote:
Dreadnought wrote:
Carrying a gun does not bother anyone (assuming you don't go around randomly shooting people, which is illegal). Being armed is a natural right. You do it yourself. Nobody else is involved.

So you would support a law that made it that you could not acquire ammunition, gun powder, or a firearm? That you can have one a gun and all the rest but that you must make it yourself, with no one else involved?


Again, WHY? Are you so afraid of law abiding citizens with guns?

Tugger wrote:
I am just want to earn that "A" grade you are handing out and want to see if you are earning one yourself. Again, you are arguing it be "natural" and requires no one elses participation to be an actual "right".

Because it appears money and the need to compensate others for their services is involved with the right to bear arms as much as it is involved in the right to "life", aka heath, aka healthcare.

Tugg


You graduate to A+. I've explained this. There is tons of literature on the subject.

Dreadnought wrote:
A right must be exercised through your own initiative and action. It is not a claim on the life, property, work or money of others.


If you buy something, you are not laying a claim on anything ("You owe me something"). It is a free and voluntary exchange on both sides.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 10313
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:53 pm

Dreadnought wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Go back and read what you wrote, if you can't accept medical care as a right then how can you accept the right to carry weapons, if the right to medical care impinges on someone else's rights then it sure as heck stands to reason that your same argument is also valid for guns. You sir are a first degree black belt hippocrate.


No, but that argument makes you a grade A moron.

Carrying a gun does not bother anyone (assuming you don't go around randomly shooting people, which is illegal). Being armed is a natural right. You do it yourself. Nobody else is involved.

Medical care requires someone else do the work. Not a right. It is something somebody has to pay for, even if the doc works for free (in other words, HE pays for it).

Come on, a 3rd grader can get it.


Bollocks, for you to have the right to carry a gun someone has to manufacture it, ship it and sell it, other people are involved in the sales and marketing of it, to use it someone has to manufacture the ammunition, distribute and sell it, your natural right to carry a weapon requires an entire industry to deliver that right, which by your own definition is not a right. If an entire industry is based around your right to carry a weapon why can't another industry be based around a persons right to government funded medical care?

And of course the US also signed the Universal Declaration if Human Rights

Article 25 of the United Nations' Universal Declaration of Human Rights 1948 states that "Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services."


Would you look at that medical care is a right.
 
LMP737
Posts: 5055
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:24 am

Dreadnought wrote:

Medical care requires someone else do the work. Not a right. It is something somebody has to pay for, even if the doc works for free (in other words, HE pays for it).

Come on, a 3rd grader can get it.


Spoken like someone with good health insurance. Get back to me when someone takes it away. They we will see what your attitude is.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 6273
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:31 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Bollocks

The disconnect Dread seems to be having is the idea that the person providing healthcare will be paid for their services. He keeps attempting to enforce the idea hat people will be forced (perhaps at gunpoint? Oh the irony...) to provide care for no remuneration. And that is not a truthful statement or argument.

The one point though that is correct is that healthcare as a "right" versus gun ownership as a "right" are different things and they must be managed differently. You are not automatically granted a gun, no one is required to give one to you if you need one. However it cannot be denied to you without strong justification if you are wishing and able to acquire one legally. Gun ownership is a right only because it is enshrined in the Constitution, this applies only to the USA. That can be changed and is subject to judicial interpretation, as it has been throughout our history. Healthcare as a right is a very different thing and how it is paid and what will be covered must also be set down in law, and agreed to by the nation(s) involved. Again, like any "right" anywhere it is the nation only that determines its extent and limits and how it is to apply.

Many may argue it is universal and obvious but it is always controlled by the legal structures that have been set up. The same goes for gun ownership in the USA no matter how strident some may be that "it is our right". So grade A morons can argue that guns are a right just as the same can be done for healthcare.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13765
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:27 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Dreadnought wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Go back and read what you wrote, if you can't accept medical care as a right then how can you accept the right to carry weapons, if the right to medical care impinges on someone else's rights then it sure as heck stands to reason that your same argument is also valid for guns. You sir are a first degree black belt hippocrate.


No, but that argument makes you a grade A moron.

Carrying a gun does not bother anyone (assuming you don't go around randomly shooting people, which is illegal). Being armed is a natural right. You do it yourself. Nobody else is involved.

Medical care requires someone else do the work. Not a right. It is something somebody has to pay for, even if the doc works for free (in other words, HE pays for it).

Come on, a 3rd grader can get it.


Bollocks, for you to have the right to carry a gun someone has to manufacture it, ship it and sell it, other people are involved in the sales and marketing of it, to use it someone has to manufacture the ammunition, distribute and sell it, your natural right to carry a weapon requires an entire industry to deliver that right, which by your own definition is not a right. If an entire industry is based around your right to carry a weapon why can't another industry be based around a persons right to government funded medical care?

And of course the US also signed the Universal Declaration if Human Rights

Article 25 of the United Nations' Universal Declaration of Human Rights 1948 states that "Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services."


Would you look at that medical care is a right.



False equivalency at its finest. You know perfectly well that the term "right" means that no one can preclude you from seeking it, which is a big difference than saying "must be provided to you by the state."

If you believe what you're saying, then you also believe that the 2nd Amendment - which actually IS a codified right under the United States Constitution - means the government must provide the citizenry with firearms.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
blueflyer
Posts: 3764
Joined: Tue Jan 31, 2006 4:17 am

Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:12 am

EA CO AS wrote:
False equivalency at its finest. You know perfectly well that the term "right" means that no one can preclude you from seeking it, which is a big difference than saying "must be provided to you by the state."

If you believe what you're saying, then you also believe that the 2nd Amendment - which actually IS a codified right under the United States Constitution - means the government must provide the citizenry with firearms.

Except that “must be provided to you by the state” is exactly the definition of “right” when you read past the second amendment, to the fourth, the fifth and the seventh amendments. The right to a speedy trial, to be protected against seizures without a warrant, etc. are not mere niceties that no one can stop you from seeking, but are entitlements that you should receive without asking for whenever necessary. These rights are enforced through our expensive, taxpayer-funded, court systems and law enforcement departments. If the state pays for judges and police officers to guarantee these rights, why can’t it pay for doctors and hospitals to guarantee a right to health, other than your disinclination to pay for it, of course?
Democracy 2016: 3 million California votes < 100,000 Midwest votes.
 
User avatar
akiss20
Posts: 830
Joined: Tue Sep 04, 2007 9:50 am

Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:08 pm

blueflyer wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
False equivalency at its finest. You know perfectly well that the term "right" means that no one can preclude you from seeking it, which is a big difference than saying "must be provided to you by the state."

If you believe what you're saying, then you also believe that the 2nd Amendment - which actually IS a codified right under the United States Constitution - means the government must provide the citizenry with firearms.

Except that “must be provided to you by the state” is exactly the definition of “right” when you read past the second amendment, to the fourth, the fifth and the seventh amendments. The right to a speedy trial, to be protected against seizures without a warrant, etc. are not mere niceties that no one can stop you from seeking, but are entitlements that you should receive without asking for whenever necessary. These rights are enforced through our expensive, taxpayer-funded, court systems and law enforcement departments. If the state pays for judges and police officers to guarantee these rights, why can’t it pay for doctors and hospitals to guarantee a right to health, other than your disinclination to pay for it, of course?


Don't forget the sixth where the court is obligated to provide counsel at no expense

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assistanc ... sel_Clause

So Dreadnought and EA CO AS, how is this not an example of a right where another agent is obligated to perform some action?
Change will not come if we wait for some other person or some other time. We are the ones we've been waiting for. We are
 
WIederling
Posts: 2907
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:15 pm

"The only people here getting shafted are the American taxpayers as they were lied to by lunatics like Palin."

They seem to have close affinity and absolute like it. ( getting sharft* that is.)
Fitting medieval movement around: Flagellants.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Hillis
Topic Author
Posts: 975
Joined: Fri Apr 29, 2011 6:19 pm

Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:23 am

Dreadnought, can you not see the irony of your claim that owning a gun is an inherent "right", while at the same time telling us that having access to healthcare if one would happen to be shot by someone wielding a gun is not a right? So, in essence, you're saying the right to shoot someone is more important than the right of someone who is shot to receive proper medical care?

You can't make this kind of stuff up.
Peace
 
User avatar
EA CO AS
Posts: 13765
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 8:54 am

Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:14 am

blueflyer wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
False equivalency at its finest. You know perfectly well that the term "right" means that no one can preclude you from seeking it, which is a big difference than saying "must be provided to you by the state."

If you believe what you're saying, then you also believe that the 2nd Amendment - which actually IS a codified right under the United States Constitution - means the government must provide the citizenry with firearms.

Except that “must be provided to you by the state” is exactly the definition of “right” when you read past the second amendment, to the fourth, the fifth and the seventh amendments.


Completely different; the rights listed after the second are meant to be funded by the state, as they're individual protections FROM direct intrusion or unfair treatment by the state. Healthcare is not defined anywhere in the Constitution, so there's no way it could be implied to be a "right" that the state must fund.
"In this present crisis, government is not the solution to our problem - government IS the problem." - Ronald Reagan

Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: aerlingus747, B747forever, Baidu [Spider], Google [Bot], melpax and 2 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos