Hillis
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GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:11 am

Basically, they would punish those states that expanded medicare. They would have insurance bought through "savings accoutns", which most Americans won't be able to use because they don't have the money. And fewer people would be insured.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/16/us/p ... -news&_r=0

This is what you get when you put in power a political party that hates its own people, and don't give a damn who lives or dies. Obamacare is far from perfect, but it headed in the right direction. Now, these rich, out-of-touch Fascists are going to eviscerate health care in America.

Make America Sick Again.
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rfields5421
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Fri Feb 17, 2017 4:25 am

On this one I have to say you are right.

How does a political party that things an ideal job pays under the poverty level is going to be able to put money into a health care savings account. They already put most of their money in to their health. It is called buying food.

While I personally like the idea that healthcare health insurance should be portable across state borders (I.e. You could buy health insurance from a company in another state, and healthcare coverage should not be limited to one state as it is many policies) that is not going to be passed.

I can already see the lawsuit Texas governor and attorney general will file about such a "infringement of states rights"

As they will also file lawsuits against Medicaid cuts as an unfunded federal mandate.

The details from a couple other articles seem to set this proposal up as a fight between Republican Congressmen and Republican State Legislators.

I hope they get trashed when these Congressmen go home with this dumb proposal before the public.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:02 am

I'm curious to know what the republican governors of the states concerned will make of it when they have to chose between taxing their constituents more or telling some of them to go look for a graveyard plot.
(We all know what they'll chose to do...)
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
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Aesma
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:48 pm

Despite reading a lot about it, hearing from relatives who immigrated to the US, taking every precaution (special insurance) when my young sister spent two summers in the US, I still can't really grasp what it's like to live in the US and have to worry about health care all the time.

Here in France I know that I could be in dire straits, literally living on the streets, and I would still get a cancer treatment if I needed one. Being covered or not is not something I ever think about.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
rfields5421
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Fri Feb 17, 2017 3:28 pm

I doubt most people in the US worry about healthcare all the time.

By their very nature most single people under 30-35 years of age don't worry about healthcare. They simply don't believe they need insurance, they aren't going to get sick, healthcare is something for old people.

Young parents who do not work for a company with a good health insurance plan worry about healthcare. Kids need to go to the doctor for various relatively minor things. A few doctor visits with health insurance can make an entire year's wages disappear quickly.

Older people worry about their health, and have the experience to know that no matter what insurance they have, a major illness could wipe out their savings and leave them destitute.

Major illnesses for the young are a bit different. If you are really seriously sick, or injured - you will be able to find some health care for your condition (except mental illness).

The taxpayers and people with health insurance and the stockholders of hospitals end up paying for the care.

In a large city region like Dallas - there is a major public hospital funded by taxpayers - Parkland. There are also several excellent hospitals operated by religious institutions. Those will not turn away a patient who needs care for lack of funds.

In rural areas such as Columbia County Arkansas where I grew up, population under 25,000, there is one for profit hospital. It won't turn someone away, but from time to time that hospital has gone to the county government and threatened to close if the county doesn't provide some extra money to help cover their costs of treating the un-insured. The state of Texas estimates that half of the county level rural hospitals have closed due to the cost of treating uninsured patients.

When the nearest hospital is 140 miles / 225 miles away and a person has a heart condition- they worry.

That is the big debate / issue which the Republicans are just realizing they have messed up.

Millions of their supporters believe their promise that Obamacare will be repealed. They also believe the complete fiction that health insurance/ health care will return to what it was before 2009.

At least 20 million people who got health insurance the first time under Obamacare know the Republicans plan is to leave them with no health insurance. The jobs they have don't have employer sponsored health insurance available. Many make a total income under $40,000 per year despite working an average 60 hours a week at 2 or 3 jobs.

Probably another 20 million who think repealing Obamacare will make their health insurance more affordable don't realize the industry has changed and their costs will go up significantly, if they are able to get any health insurance. Probably half of them will lose their ability to buy any insurance.

Then there is the divide in the Republican Party. A large number of the Republicans in the House are set and determined to not allow passage/ funding of any bill that helps provide healthcare to anyone.

A few Republicans in the House and most Republicans in the Senate along with President Trump realize that they cannot simply remove Obamacare. They have to provide a replacement plan which offers insurance coverage to the 20-40 million people.

The worry about healthcare is about the uncertainty of what changes are going to occur in the next few years.

The people of this country, the doctors and hospitals, the insurance companies didn't like everything about Obamacare, but they had learned to live with it.

None know what Trump care will be - and are worried.
 
bhill
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Fri Feb 17, 2017 7:05 pm

If the GP flat dump it, it will be like removing the control rods on a reactor, 5 years of very controlled profits.....And add to that most of the millions that now have it do not make enough to afford the HSA's and high deductible plans. And the tax credits? Right...With all the cash the GOP is going to give from the Treasury, why not just use those tax dollars for a single payer anyway?
Carpe Pices
 
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casinterest
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Thu Feb 23, 2017 6:31 pm

The GOP has a problem here. They ran for 8 years against the Affordable Care act, and voted to repeal it multiple times. They now have to deliver to their red blooded base the "Better Plan". However they have 2 very real problems in doing so.

1. Healthcare Coverage is higher than it has been in many years. Changes in the fee structure will leave many without coverage , especially if they move to a "Free Market" Health savings account. As RFields5421 pointed out. People that can't afford healthcare will just choose food, which drives the costs up for everyone, as they will still get sick and be unable to foot the bill.
2. They can't stop the "costs " issues without destroying either the free market or state level control of licensing and options for healthcare.

It's quite a pickle. But the GOP has backed themselves into a corner where they must repeal and replace to appease their base. Even Paul Ryan has said so.
Older than I just was ,and younger than I will soo be.
 
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Tugger
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:17 pm

They have one huge problem really (well two):
They don't want to remove the "must accept" rule requiring insurance companies to take people with preexisting conditions, but they do want to remove "everybody must buy into it" requirement, the government mandate that the Republicans came up with years ago. You must have both or neither or else the system falls apart (and no a "high risk pool" won't work as it needs huge funding as well which the Republicans will or at least appear to refuse to agree to).

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
rfields5421
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:32 pm

I suspect that the TrumpCare bill will

1) Not be anything that Trump likes, but will always carry his name;

2) There will be negotiated deals to allow some Republicans to vote against the bill, but still ensure passage. Those under the most voter pressure will be allowed to vote against the measure so that they can have a chance to hold onto their Congressional/ Senate position

3) Stalling and delaying might avoid a wholesale Republican defeat in 2018, but if they don't get a bill at least as "socialistic " as what is in place today, the 2020 election is going the worst defeat for the party in power in history.

4) Then it will be the Democrats problem, and they better be ready to pass something better than what is in place now.

Finally, I find morally offensive the notion that the United States is too poor to afford decent healthcare of everyone.

I find the arguments against helping the disadvantaged get healthcare an insult to the very root of Christian concepts.
 
CaliAtenza
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:04 pm

The whole irony of this is that "Obamacare" (the ACA), is a Heritage Foundation/GOP idea.
 
rfields5421
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:34 pm

Where Obama messed up is that after the insurance and big hospital industries got their friends in Congress to revise the original proposal completely out of his desires he didn't complain. He should have been against the original ACA bacsuse it doesn't come close to his plan.

Instead he thought once we get the law on the books, we can work with Congress to fix the many problems.

He should have known the Republicans would block any effort to make ACA better.
 
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Channex757
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:53 pm

Aesma wrote:
Despite reading a lot about it, hearing from relatives who immigrated to the US, taking every precaution (special insurance) when my young sister spent two summers in the US, I still can't really grasp what it's like to live in the US and have to worry about health care all the time.

Here in France I know that I could be in dire straits, literally living on the streets, and I would still get a cancer treatment if I needed one. Being covered or not is not something I ever think about.

Remember the debate about "socialised" healthcare when this all started? My response at the time for my US friends was "Hell yeah, bring it on".

Unfortunately the single payer proposals were always going to be non-starters. Something akin to the French or British healthcare services which incidentally are substantially cheaper to operate. The only people here getting shafted are the American taxpayers as they were lied to by lunatics like Palin. Death panels my arse. Obamacare was/is an attempt to bridge the divide between truly effective healthcare and the desires of people to control their own plan purchasing.

Healthcare should be a right enshrined in the Constitution. Give citizens the freedom to be the best they can be, without worrying about paying doctor bills. Free taxpayers from the worry of the healthcare lottery that is private insurance and if they want to contract out of it, then so be it. Happens in Europe and elsewhere too; private medicine still flourishes.

But the biggest scandal is the US pays the most money per capita for a poor service overall. Why? Simple. Profit. Take those profits out of the system, put them back into healthcare and the overall cost drops.

Health should not be a commodity for companies to trade in.
 
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Dreadnought
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:28 pm

Channex757 wrote:
Healthcare should be a right enshrined in the Constitution.


You must have flunked Civics. Healthcare is NEVER a "right", even if you live in a country with government-provided healthcare. A right involves being able to do something and not being prevented or punished for it. Speech, religion, political opinions and so forth. Healthcare involves the labor and assets of others. What you are proposing would be akin to government-provided roads, or national defense. Those are part of the social contract, where the people agree to share the cost of something so that they may live better lives (in pursuit of life, liberty, and happiness, for example).

I'll keep my arguments for or against single-payer healthcare for later - I just wanted to point out that anyone who likes to talk about "healthcare as a right" is just talking out of the most ignorant form of populism.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
11725Flyer
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Thu Feb 23, 2017 11:58 pm

Let's not forget an amazing moment concerning Obamacare. Nancy Pelosi infamously said, "But we have to pass the [health care] bill so that you can find out what’s in it....”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV-05TLiiLU

https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/po ... e92f8a2c65
 
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WarRI1
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:05 am

http://www.politico.com/story/2017/02/j ... ans-235303

I have to agree with this man who I have never agreed with before. Just like was said by Obama and H. Clinton fix it, do not destroy it. Boehner knows they have nothing and will try to repackage Obama Care. :eek: :shock:
It is better to die on your feet, than live on your knees.
 
tommy1808
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Fri Feb 24, 2017 7:52 am

Dreadnought wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
Healthcare should be a right enshrined in the Constitution.


You must have flunked Civics. Healthcare is NEVER a "right", even if you live in a country with government-provided healthcare.


You must have flunked the last 50 years or so. Healthcare is a right, to the extend that you can go to jail for not treating an emergency case. Getting your Viagra may not be a human right, but getting healthcare certainly is. Oh wait, i live in a country where even Viagra can be a human right.... (Az.: 10 E 5407/01, Court of Claims Frankfurt).

best regards
Thomas
Wait for Donalds Trump´s new book: "The Art Of The Retreat"
 
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Dreadnought
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:39 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Dreadnought wrote:
Channex757 wrote:
Healthcare should be a right enshrined in the Constitution.


You must have flunked Civics. Healthcare is NEVER a "right", even if you live in a country with government-provided healthcare.


You must have flunked the last 50 years or so. Healthcare is a right, to the extend that you can go to jail for not treating an emergency case. Getting your Viagra may not be a human right, but getting healthcare certainly is. Oh wait, i live in a country where even Viagra can be a human right.... (Az.: 10 E 5407/01, Court of Claims Frankfurt).

best regards
Thomas


Maybe your mistake is that of language. I assume German is your native language. A right is the sovereignty to act without the permission of others. A right carries with it an implicit, unstated footnote: you may exercise your rights as long as you do not violate the same rights of another - within this context, rights are an absolute. A right must be exercised through your own initiative and action. It is not a claim on the life, property, work or money of others.

Statists have corrupted the actual meaning of a right and have converted it, in the minds of the ignorant, into its opposite: into a claim on the life, property, work or money of another. Statists declare you have a "right" to housing, to a job, to health care, to an education, to a minimum wage, to preferential treatment if you are a minority and so on. These "rights" are all a claim, a lien, on your life and the lives of others. These "rights" impose a form of involuntary servitude on you and others. These "rights" force you to pay for someone’s housing, their health care, their education, for training for a job, etc.

I'm not saying that these things should not exist (at least some of them), but it is intellectually and morally wrong to call them "rights". They may be part of a social compact, a sacrifice you and others are willing to make in order to live in a better society, but to call them a right is nothing more than propaganda.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
Kiwirob
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:40 pm

rfields5421 wrote:
I doubt most people in the US worry about healthcare all the time.

By their very nature most single people under 30-35 years of age don't worry about healthcare. They simply don't believe they need insurance, they aren't going to get sick, healthcare is something for old people.

Young parents who do not work for a company with a good health insurance plan worry about healthcare. Kids need to go to the doctor for various relatively minor things. A few doctor visits with health insurance can make an entire year's wages disappear quickly.



Then they are stupid since it's young people who are more likely to have accidents and need emergency medical care, which in the US can cost a fortune, like my cousin who broke her arm in the US falling off a bike, the eventual bill was close to 60k, lucky she had good travel insurance.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:52 pm

Dreadnought wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Dreadnought wrote:

You must have flunked Civics. Healthcare is NEVER a "right", even if you live in a country with government-provided healthcare.


You must have flunked the last 50 years or so. Healthcare is a right, to the extend that you can go to jail for not treating an emergency case. Getting your Viagra may not be a human right, but getting healthcare certainly is. Oh wait, i live in a country where even Viagra can be a human right.... (Az.: 10 E 5407/01, Court of Claims Frankfurt).

best regards
Thomas


Maybe your mistake is that of language. I assume German is your native language. A right is the sovereignty to act without the permission of others. A right carries with it an implicit, unstated footnote: you may exercise your rights as long as you do not violate the same rights of another - within this context, rights are an absolute. A right must be exercised through your own initiative and action. It is not a claim on the life, property, work or money of others.

.


Coming from you I find this about the funniest thing I've heard all month, your support of gun ownership is contradictory to what you have just said.
 
tommy1808
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Fri Feb 24, 2017 3:55 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Coming from you I find this about the funniest thing I've heard all month, your support of gun ownership is contradictory to what you have just said.


I was just going to say that. Thank you :)

best regards
Thomas
Wait for Donalds Trump´s new book: "The Art Of The Retreat"
 
rfields5421
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Fri Feb 24, 2017 5:50 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
rfields5421 wrote:
I doubt most people in the US worry about healthcare all the time.

By their very nature most single people under 30-35 years of age don't worry about healthcare. They simply don't believe they need insurance, they aren't going to get sick, healthcare is something for old people.

Young parents who do not work for a company with a good health insurance plan worry about healthcare. Kids need to go to the doctor for various relatively minor things. A few doctor visits with health insurance can make an entire year's wages disappear quickly.



Then they are stupid since it's young people who are more likely to have accidents and need emergency medical care, which in the US can cost a fortune, like my cousin who broke her arm in the US falling off a bike, the eventual bill was close to 60k, lucky she had good travel insurance.


It is very easy for the young uninsured or underinsured in the US to obtain quality healthcare for accidents. And to be realistic, accidents are things that happen to other people, not a risk to "me". (Look at all the people riding motorcycles without helmets in the US)

As for the expense, those without insurance or limited insurance they simply don't pay. The public has to pick up the costs.

The leading reason for bankruptcy in the US the last figures I saw, a few years old, was due to medical bills from an accident or major illness.

In the 2000-2009 decade the leading reason for closure of
rural hospitals was uncollected debt owed for emergency medical care by people without health insurance.

Prior to the ACA the most popular health insurance policy purchased by a hose under age 35 without children was a 'high deductible ' policy. One which is very cheap, often $40 or 50 per month, but the policy would pay no expenses until the deductible of $10,000 or more was reached. One young man I know had a $50,000 deductible. He didn't have that much money or no hope of paying it if he were injured. He planned if something happened to declare bankruptcy.
 
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Dreadnought
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:33 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Coming from you I find this about the funniest thing I've heard all month, your support of gun ownership is contradictory to what you have just said.


How?
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
Kiwirob
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Fri Feb 24, 2017 6:48 pm

Go back and read what you wrote, if you can't accept medical care as a right then how can you accept the right to carry weapons, if the right to medical care impinges on someone else's rights then it sure as heck stands to reason that your same argument is also valid for guns. You sir are a first degree black belt hippocrate.
 
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Dreadnought
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:00 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Go back and read what you wrote, if you can't accept medical care as a right then how can you accept the right to carry weapons, if the right to medical care impinges on someone else's rights then it sure as heck stands to reason that your same argument is also valid for guns. You sir are a first degree black belt hippocrate.


No, but that argument makes you a grade A moron.

Carrying a gun does not bother anyone (assuming you don't go around randomly shooting people, which is illegal). Being armed is a natural right. You do it yourself. Nobody else is involved.

Medical care requires someone else do the work. Not a right. It is something somebody has to pay for, even if the doc works for free (in other words, HE pays for it).

Come on, a 3rd grader can get it.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
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Tugger
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:26 pm

Dreadnought wrote:
Carrying a gun does not bother anyone (assuming you don't go around randomly shooting people, which is illegal). Being armed is a natural right. You do it yourself. Nobody else is involved.

So you would support a law that made it that you could not acquire ammunition, gun powder, or a firearm? That you can have one a gun and all the rest but that you must make it yourself, with no one else involved?

I am just want to earn that "A" grade you are handing out and want to see if you are earning one yourself. Again, you are arguing it be "natural" and requires no one elses participation to be an actual "right".

Because it appears money and the need to compensate others for their services is involved with the right to bear arms as much as it is involved in the right to "life", aka heath, aka healthcare.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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Dreadnought
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Fri Feb 24, 2017 9:46 pm

Tugger wrote:
Dreadnought wrote:
Carrying a gun does not bother anyone (assuming you don't go around randomly shooting people, which is illegal). Being armed is a natural right. You do it yourself. Nobody else is involved.

So you would support a law that made it that you could not acquire ammunition, gun powder, or a firearm? That you can have one a gun and all the rest but that you must make it yourself, with no one else involved?


Again, WHY? Are you so afraid of law abiding citizens with guns?

Tugger wrote:
I am just want to earn that "A" grade you are handing out and want to see if you are earning one yourself. Again, you are arguing it be "natural" and requires no one elses participation to be an actual "right".

Because it appears money and the need to compensate others for their services is involved with the right to bear arms as much as it is involved in the right to "life", aka heath, aka healthcare.

Tugg


You graduate to A+. I've explained this. There is tons of literature on the subject.

Dreadnought wrote:
A right must be exercised through your own initiative and action. It is not a claim on the life, property, work or money of others.


If you buy something, you are not laying a claim on anything ("You owe me something"). It is a free and voluntary exchange on both sides.
You have enemies? Good. That means you've stood up for something, sometime in your life. - W. Churchill
 
Kiwirob
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Fri Feb 24, 2017 11:53 pm

Dreadnought wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Go back and read what you wrote, if you can't accept medical care as a right then how can you accept the right to carry weapons, if the right to medical care impinges on someone else's rights then it sure as heck stands to reason that your same argument is also valid for guns. You sir are a first degree black belt hippocrate.


No, but that argument makes you a grade A moron.

Carrying a gun does not bother anyone (assuming you don't go around randomly shooting people, which is illegal). Being armed is a natural right. You do it yourself. Nobody else is involved.

Medical care requires someone else do the work. Not a right. It is something somebody has to pay for, even if the doc works for free (in other words, HE pays for it).

Come on, a 3rd grader can get it.


Bollocks, for you to have the right to carry a gun someone has to manufacture it, ship it and sell it, other people are involved in the sales and marketing of it, to use it someone has to manufacture the ammunition, distribute and sell it, your natural right to carry a weapon requires an entire industry to deliver that right, which by your own definition is not a right. If an entire industry is based around your right to carry a weapon why can't another industry be based around a persons right to government funded medical care?

And of course the US also signed the Universal Declaration if Human Rights

Article 25 of the United Nations' Universal Declaration of Human Rights 1948 states that "Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services."


Would you look at that medical care is a right.
 
LMP737
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:24 am

Dreadnought wrote:

Medical care requires someone else do the work. Not a right. It is something somebody has to pay for, even if the doc works for free (in other words, HE pays for it).

Come on, a 3rd grader can get it.


Spoken like someone with good health insurance. Get back to me when someone takes it away. They we will see what your attitude is.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
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Tugger
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Sat Feb 25, 2017 12:31 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Bollocks

The disconnect Dread seems to be having is the idea that the person providing healthcare will be paid for their services. He keeps attempting to enforce the idea hat people will be forced (perhaps at gunpoint? Oh the irony...) to provide care for no remuneration. And that is not a truthful statement or argument.

The one point though that is correct is that healthcare as a "right" versus gun ownership as a "right" are different things and they must be managed differently. You are not automatically granted a gun, no one is required to give one to you if you need one. However it cannot be denied to you without strong justification if you are wishing and able to acquire one legally. Gun ownership is a right only because it is enshrined in the Constitution, this applies only to the USA. That can be changed and is subject to judicial interpretation, as it has been throughout our history. Healthcare as a right is a very different thing and how it is paid and what will be covered must also be set down in law, and agreed to by the nation(s) involved. Again, like any "right" anywhere it is the nation only that determines its extent and limits and how it is to apply.

Many may argue it is universal and obvious but it is always controlled by the legal structures that have been set up. The same goes for gun ownership in the USA no matter how strident some may be that "it is our right". So grade A morons can argue that guns are a right just as the same can be done for healthcare.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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EA CO AS
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Sat Feb 25, 2017 3:27 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Dreadnought wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Go back and read what you wrote, if you can't accept medical care as a right then how can you accept the right to carry weapons, if the right to medical care impinges on someone else's rights then it sure as heck stands to reason that your same argument is also valid for guns. You sir are a first degree black belt hippocrate.


No, but that argument makes you a grade A moron.

Carrying a gun does not bother anyone (assuming you don't go around randomly shooting people, which is illegal). Being armed is a natural right. You do it yourself. Nobody else is involved.

Medical care requires someone else do the work. Not a right. It is something somebody has to pay for, even if the doc works for free (in other words, HE pays for it).

Come on, a 3rd grader can get it.


Bollocks, for you to have the right to carry a gun someone has to manufacture it, ship it and sell it, other people are involved in the sales and marketing of it, to use it someone has to manufacture the ammunition, distribute and sell it, your natural right to carry a weapon requires an entire industry to deliver that right, which by your own definition is not a right. If an entire industry is based around your right to carry a weapon why can't another industry be based around a persons right to government funded medical care?

And of course the US also signed the Universal Declaration if Human Rights

Article 25 of the United Nations' Universal Declaration of Human Rights 1948 states that "Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services."


Would you look at that medical care is a right.



False equivalency at its finest. You know perfectly well that the term "right" means that no one can preclude you from seeking it, which is a big difference than saying "must be provided to you by the state."

If you believe what you're saying, then you also believe that the 2nd Amendment - which actually IS a codified right under the United States Constitution - means the government must provide the citizenry with firearms.
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blueflyer
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Sat Feb 25, 2017 7:12 am

EA CO AS wrote:
False equivalency at its finest. You know perfectly well that the term "right" means that no one can preclude you from seeking it, which is a big difference than saying "must be provided to you by the state."

If you believe what you're saying, then you also believe that the 2nd Amendment - which actually IS a codified right under the United States Constitution - means the government must provide the citizenry with firearms.

Except that “must be provided to you by the state” is exactly the definition of “right” when you read past the second amendment, to the fourth, the fifth and the seventh amendments. The right to a speedy trial, to be protected against seizures without a warrant, etc. are not mere niceties that no one can stop you from seeking, but are entitlements that you should receive without asking for whenever necessary. These rights are enforced through our expensive, taxpayer-funded, court systems and law enforcement departments. If the state pays for judges and police officers to guarantee these rights, why can’t it pay for doctors and hospitals to guarantee a right to health, other than your disinclination to pay for it, of course?
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akiss20
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Sat Feb 25, 2017 4:08 pm

blueflyer wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
False equivalency at its finest. You know perfectly well that the term "right" means that no one can preclude you from seeking it, which is a big difference than saying "must be provided to you by the state."

If you believe what you're saying, then you also believe that the 2nd Amendment - which actually IS a codified right under the United States Constitution - means the government must provide the citizenry with firearms.

Except that “must be provided to you by the state” is exactly the definition of “right” when you read past the second amendment, to the fourth, the fifth and the seventh amendments. The right to a speedy trial, to be protected against seizures without a warrant, etc. are not mere niceties that no one can stop you from seeking, but are entitlements that you should receive without asking for whenever necessary. These rights are enforced through our expensive, taxpayer-funded, court systems and law enforcement departments. If the state pays for judges and police officers to guarantee these rights, why can’t it pay for doctors and hospitals to guarantee a right to health, other than your disinclination to pay for it, of course?


Don't forget the sixth where the court is obligated to provide counsel at no expense

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assistanc ... sel_Clause

So Dreadnought and EA CO AS, how is this not an example of a right where another agent is obligated to perform some action?
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:15 pm

"The only people here getting shafted are the American taxpayers as they were lied to by lunatics like Palin."

They seem to have close affinity and absolute like it. ( getting sharft* that is.)
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Hillis
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:23 am

Dreadnought, can you not see the irony of your claim that owning a gun is an inherent "right", while at the same time telling us that having access to healthcare if one would happen to be shot by someone wielding a gun is not a right? So, in essence, you're saying the right to shoot someone is more important than the right of someone who is shot to receive proper medical care?

You can't make this kind of stuff up.
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EA CO AS
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:14 am

blueflyer wrote:
EA CO AS wrote:
False equivalency at its finest. You know perfectly well that the term "right" means that no one can preclude you from seeking it, which is a big difference than saying "must be provided to you by the state."

If you believe what you're saying, then you also believe that the 2nd Amendment - which actually IS a codified right under the United States Constitution - means the government must provide the citizenry with firearms.

Except that “must be provided to you by the state” is exactly the definition of “right” when you read past the second amendment, to the fourth, the fifth and the seventh amendments.


Completely different; the rights listed after the second are meant to be funded by the state, as they're individual protections FROM direct intrusion or unfair treatment by the state. Healthcare is not defined anywhere in the Constitution, so there's no way it could be implied to be a "right" that the state must fund.
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Comments made here are my own and are not intended to represent the official position of Alaska Air Group
 
WIederling
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:47 pm

Hillis wrote:
So, in essence, you're saying the right to shoot someone is more important than the right of someone who is shot to receive proper medical care?


Inefficient. After he is mended you'd have to shoot him ... again. inefficient, I tell you!
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Aesma
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:14 pm

Proponents or opponents of universal healthcare in the US often mention similar systems in Europe or Canada. For information, the reverse is also true. We're in a presidential campaign in France and healthcare is being talked about, since the system has been in the red for decades, doctors complain they're not paid enough, etc. The right-wing candidate wanted some coverage shifted from the public sphere to the private sphere, for so called "little risks". When this little nugget from his program got widespread coverage, the outrage across all political parties (including his own) was overwhelming. People were asking if he wanted a US-style system.

The proposal instantly disappeared from his website. Now he wants public coverage to be even better than before ! In the meantime it was discovered that AXA had paid his "consulting firm" 200 000 euros recently. AXA being big in the health insurance world, of course. This hasn't got widespread coverage though, unfortunately.
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DocLightning
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:43 pm

Dreadnought wrote:
Again, WHY? Are you so afraid of law abiding citizens with guns?


Because I lack the psychic abilities to tell when they are going to stop being law-abiding.
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Tugger
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:02 pm

EA CO AS wrote:
Completely different; the rights listed after the second are meant to be funded by the state, as they're individual protections FROM direct intrusion or unfair treatment by the state. Healthcare is not defined anywhere in the Constitution, so there's no way it could be implied to be a "right" that the state must fund.

The comments you are responding to were in response to Dread stating unequivocally that rights are not something than can obligate the state to do something. That was wrong, the state can be obligated to provide something as a right. As I said, rights are always a legal construct of whatever society or nation, and they can change with legislative, court, and executive means with the court and legislative as the final arbiters. Healthcare does not have to be in the Bill of Rights in order to exist as a right that needs to be supported by state action.

Though your comment on the "after the first two are meant to be [anything]..." is without support. The Bill of Rights are simply enumerated additionally specified rights that amend the constitution. One could equally add an amendment one for health and wellness, there is no "only he first two". If I recall the 18th Amendment is a direct INTRUSION by the state on individuals. And as I noted that rights are not noted in the BoR does not means they don't exist. This is well established.

Tugg
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apodino
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Sun Feb 26, 2017 8:36 pm

I hear a lot of talk about healthcare, and often times the debate seems to be whether or not healthcare is a right. I do believe that Healthcare is a right, as we all have a right to survive that comes from our creator. Some people in this thread have talked about it and compared it to the right to bear arms, which is a second amendment right in this country. Here is the thing. Even though we have the right to bear arms, we still have to pay for the Arms in order to bear them, because we are paying for the materials used to make the gun, and the labor of the workers who paid for the gun. People don't do this stuff for free.

In healthcare, it is the same way. Even though we have the right to health care, labor still needs to be paid to the Doctors that care for us, (In many cases they are paying mountains of student debt in addition to trying to provide for their families) Labor and materials still need to be paid to the people that manufacture the medical devices we use, as well as the drugs we need in many cases. The problem is someone has to pay for it. In most cases in this country, it has historically been the health insurance companies. The problem here is that their own workers are also labor trying to provide for their families and need to be paid, while paying out benefits of the customers, and keeping enough cash to stay in business. When you look at it this way, you can see why this issue is not an easy issue for anyone to solve. I don't want to see anyone suffer because they cant get health care. That should not be acceptable anywhere. I think the reason many people are skeptical of Single Payer in this country is because of what really goes on in other areas of government that could corrupt a single payer healthcare system. For example, can you imagine a certain company getting a lucrative healthcare contract because they were a big campaign contributor to a Senator that recommended an HHS secretary to the president. Not to mention the amount of money spent on lobbyists. This same money can be used to influence legislation on exactly how patients are covered, thus limiting healthcare decisions from Washington that should be between a Doctor and the Patient. We could end up like what the VA has become treating our veterans, which is not very good. There are just too many openings for such a system to become corrupt, and they would be hard to clean up because the other side will claim everything is being cut, thus keeping the damage intact.

Despite what I said, I do think a single payer system could succeed, but it would have to be done at the state level. Even in Canada, the healthcare system is managed at a provincial level. Trying to manage a healthcare system of 300 Million people is just impossible, and would cost the federal government over 1 trillion dollars a year. I seriously hope that progressive states like California and Vermont will try to pass a single payer in their own state and implement it there.

What is obvious though is that the Affordable Care Act, while it has helped people who were uninsured get coverage and has helped many people, has done more harm than good, and something needs to be done about it. While I believe the current president wants to do something about it, given the atmosphere that has been in Washington for a very long time (And he hasn't exactly helped the situation), I unfortunately fear that the solution will be partisan in nature, rather than bipartisan.
 
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Dreadnought
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Sun Feb 26, 2017 9:55 pm

Tugger wrote:
The comments you are responding to were in response to Dread stating unequivocally that rights are not something than can obligate the state to do something. That was wrong, the state can be obligated to provide something as a right. As I said, rights are always a legal construct of whatever society or nation, and they can change with legislative, court, and executive means with the court and legislative as the final arbiters. Healthcare does not have to be in the Bill of Rights in order to exist as a right that needs to be supported by state action.


Tugg, you are contradicting yourself again. You say that rights "are always a legal construct of whatever society or nation, and they can change with legislative, court, and executive means" and yet you say "Healthcare does not have to be in the Bill of Rights in order to exist as a right", indicating that you do understand the concept of natural rights. Which is it? It can't be both.

apodino wrote:
Despite what I said, I do think a single payer system could succeed, but it would have to be done at the state level. Even in Canada, the healthcare system is managed at a provincial level. Trying to manage a healthcare system of 300 Million people is just impossible, and would cost the federal government over 1 trillion dollars a year. I seriously hope that progressive states like California and Vermont will try to pass a single payer in their own state and implement it there.


I've been advocating that for years here. I am hoping the the eventual replacement of Obamacare will be a mandate from Washington not on the individual, but on the 50 states (which might require a constitutional amendment which I could support). The mandate would be something like "Each state is responsible to ensure that each resident of the state be covered for medical expense due to chronic illness, accidents, and in-patient care". How that would be done is up to the states. Some might go single payer, others might go individual mandate, others might provide a state-provided insurance for that minimal level, while leaving additional coverage (private room, dental etc) to the free market, or whatever else they come up with. It will work in some states better than others, and states will learn from each others' mistakes.

Single-Payer managed from Washington would be an utter nightmare. Look at how well the VA is run if you want a preview.
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Hillis
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:12 pm

DocLightning wrote:
Dreadnought wrote:
Again, WHY? Are you so afraid of law abiding citizens with guns?


Because I lack the psychic abilities to tell when they are going to stop being law-abiding.


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LMP737
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:00 pm

Dreadnought wrote:

Single-Payer managed from Washington would be an utter nightmare. Look at how well the VA is run if you want a preview.


You can trace the problems that the VA had to the fact that they were not prepared for the influx of veterans from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. While this country seems to more than willing to burn piles of cash on these wars and the various gold plated weapons systems out there it seemed to be caught flat footed in the area of veteran healthcare.
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salttee
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:35 pm

LMP737 wrote:
Dreadnought wrote:
Single-Payer managed from Washington would be an utter nightmare. Look at how well the VA is run if you want a preview.


You can trace the problems that the VA had to the fact that they were not prepared for the influx of veterans from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. While this country seems to more than willing to burn piles of cash on these wars and the various gold plated weapons systems out there it seemed to be caught flat footed in the area of veteran healthcare.

As a veteran who has had experience with the VA system I can tell you that the VA has more problems than that. Dreadnought has a point.
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LMP737
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:43 pm

salttee wrote:
As a veteran who has had experience with the VA system I can tell you that the VA has more problems than that. Dreadnought has a point.


I'm a veteran and I've used it too. Didn't have any problems, granted this was back in the early nineties. In fact the doctor who treated me said that when he first saw me he thought I was a patients grandson who had taken his grandpa to his appointment. This is back in the day when most of your VA patients were of the WW2, Korea and Vietnam Era.
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salttee
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:36 am

LMP737 wrote:
salttee wrote:
As a veteran who has had experience with the VA system I can tell you that the VA has more problems than that. Dreadnought has a point.


I'm a veteran and I've used it too. Didn't have any problems, granted this was back in the early nineties. In fact the doctor who treated me said that when he first saw me he thought I was a patients grandson who had taken his grandpa to his appointment. This is back in the day when most of your VA patients were of the WW2, Korea and Vietnam Era.

They have a system whereby you are assigned a healthcare provider and the healthcare provider's job is to assess your needs, schedule appointments in the clinics and to interpret the results of tests. The healthcare provider's job is apparently the least desirable position in the VA and goes to the new hires who are right out of school and therefore are the least competent people in the building to do any diagnosis. The really good providers find another job in the VA system fairly quickly so they don't last long as your personal provider, I had one (of four) who was really good and she lasted about six months. It is absolutely impossible to get reassigned to a different healthcare provider by any method short of self immolation. I have gone years without going to the VA for healthcare while waiting for my particular provider to move on; I'm in one of those periods right now.

The VA has another peculiar attribute, they make the Chicago Police department look like duffers when it comes to covering up for each other. Encountering a rude or incompetent employee at the VA is a bit like finding something unknown in your meal at a sleazy inner city diner in a bad neighborhood, just set it aside and continue eating or leave; whatever you do don't complain to any of the employees, you'd just be wasting your time - and at the VA it will get you labeled a troublemaker.

They have a position with an office and all which is called the "patient advocate", in any other place a person who preforms in the manner of a VA "patient advocate" would be called a bouncer.

I volunteered at the VA for about six months two or three days a week, I got to know the place pretty well, there are some nice people there and some obviously competent people there, but it is a government agency, many people don't go there to do their job, they go there to follow the letter of the rules and collect a paycheck.

But it's free! So I go back.
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Tugger
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Mon Feb 27, 2017 4:53 am

Dreadnought wrote:
Tugger wrote:
The comments you are responding to were in response to Dread stating unequivocally that rights are not something than can obligate the state to do something. That was wrong, the state can be obligated to provide something as a right. As I said, rights are always a legal construct of whatever society or nation, and they can change with legislative, court, and executive means with the court and legislative as the final arbiters. Healthcare does not have to be in the Bill of Rights in order to exist as a right that needs to be supported by state action.


Tugg, you are contradicting yourself again. You say that rights "are always a legal construct of whatever society or nation, and they can change with legislative, court, and executive means" and yet you say "Healthcare does not have to be in the Bill of Rights in order to exist as a right", indicating that you do understand the concept of natural rights. Which is it? It can't be both.

What are you on about? I am not contradicting myself in the least. Concepts" "Natural rights"? What exactly do you mean? What are natural rights? Please explain to me any rights that "nature" grants to anything. What rights to anything does anyone have on the Savannah? Or in the jungle's of the Amazon? Or on the plains of North America? Seriously, what are natural rights in your mind? And how does a concept relate to nature?

In my mind there are no truly natural rights, as far as nature or any god is concerned. Any rights as we envision them, are purely human constructs since we must enforce them. It is humans that think of and consider how actions will impact ourselves and others and the future. So rights are ALWAYS a construct of the society in which they are created. Based on the law written to enforce them. Even the right to healthcare is different from nation to nation that have such as a right. People may think rights are "natural" but that is just a human standard they are applying, hoping to apply to everyone. The Constitution of the USA for example considered certain people to not be deserving of rights and others to only be 3/5ths of a person etc. Our rights exist because we want them too, because humans find them beneficial to ourselves. So please do explain to me the concept of a natural right versus a.... what?... supported, envisioned right? And while you are at it explain to me how a natural right, such as maybe the right the right to life, is compared to a "created" right, such as bearing arms. Which is natural? Which is superior to the other?

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
Kiwirob
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:59 am

Aesma wrote:
Proponents or opponents of universal healthcare in the US often mention similar systems in Europe or Canada. For information, the reverse is also true. We're in a presidential campaign in France and healthcare is being talked about, since the system has been in the red for decades, doctors complain they're not paid enough, etc. The right-wing candidate wanted some coverage shifted from the public sphere to the private sphere, for so called "little risks". When this little nugget from his program got widespread coverage, the outrage across all political parties (including his own) was overwhelming. People were asking if he wanted a US-style system.

The proposal instantly disappeared from his website. Now he wants public coverage to be even better than before ! In the meantime it was discovered that AXA had paid his "consulting firm" 200 000 euros recently. AXA being big in the health insurance world, of course. This hasn't got widespread coverage though, unfortunately.


In New Zealand they have the best of both worlds, there is the public healthcare system which is very good, I've never had any complaints but they also have private medical insurance for those that want it. Some companies also offer it as part of your salary package, my last company offered a medical scheme. I could happily live just using public health but I would not like the idea of medicine for profit care being the only source of healthcare.
 
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Tugger
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Re: GOP'S "Make America Sick Again Plan"

Mon Feb 27, 2017 5:51 pm

Tugger wrote:
Dreadnought wrote:
Tugger wrote:


Also I missed that Dreadnought was focused on my statement: "Healthcare does not have to be in the Bill of Rights in order to exist as a right". And my point with that statement is that the courts can decide that a right does exist regardless of it being stated explicitly anywhere. And that again is a human construct, even if the finding is that it is a "natural right". It is done by a human and is based on the laws of the nation involved.

Tugg
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