Quoting Acheron (Reply 99): Europe doesn't really need the burden that would be Ukraine.

Completely agree, maybe they could become a vassal of the US and the US can pay for them.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 99): They probably went along with the coup in 2014 by pressure of the US and their need to paint Russia into a corner...

Agree and it's cost European companies plenty.

So, we're heading for a further breakdown in economic relations between Ukraine and the EU on one side, and Russia on the other.

Following Putin's December 16 decree to suspend Russia's Free Trade Agreement with Ukraine, the EU has decided to end talks with Russia on mitigating the impact of Ukraine's Deep and Comprehensive Free Trade Agreement (DCFTA - which is the economic part of the Association Agreement) with the EU.

It released a very strong statement on this (for diplomatic standards):

http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-15-6389_en.htm?locale=en

Also in response to Putin's decree, the Ukrainian Parliament has allowed the Government to introduce a trade embargo against Russia from January 1, 2016 onward.

http://en.censor.net.ua/news/366535/...gainst_russia_effective_jan_1_2016

Russia-Ukraine trade is already just a quarter of what it was just 2 years ago. It seems set to go further downhill from here...

Good riddance, I would say.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 99): Europe doesn't really need the burden that would be Ukraine. They probably went along with the coup in 2014 by pressure of the US and their need to paint Russia into a corner...

My guess is that the EU is now a hostage of the situation. Maybe they had different expectations and didn't think that Ukraine would make such a stinking mess of itself, but now it is too late to back down.

They are in for the ride...

Quoting Scipio (Reply 101): So, we're heading for a further breakdown in economic relations between Ukraine and the EU on one side, and Russia on the other. Following Putin's December 16 decree to suspend Russia's Free Trade Agreement with Ukraine, the EU has decided to end talks with Russia on mitigating the impact of Ukraine's Deep and Comprehensive Free Trade Agreement (DCFTA - which is the economic part of the Association Agreement) with the EU. It released a very strong statement on this (for diplomatic standards): http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-15-6389_en.htm?locale=en Also in response to Putin's decree, the Ukrainian Parliament has allowed the Government to introduce a trade embargo against Russia from January 1, 2016 onward. http://en.censor.net.ua/news/366535/...gainst_russia_effective_jan_1_2016 Russia-Ukraine trade is already just a quarter of what it was just 2 years ago. It seems set to go further downhill from here... Good riddance, I would say.

Isn't it too bad that Ukraine's exports to Russia was the majority of manufactured goods that Ukraine produced?

And also look at the fact that Ukraine's exports to anywhere declined by half. You guys didn't drop your exports to Russia, you guys collapsed your economy and exports in general.

Doesn't it make you wonder whether or not Yanukovitch should have authorised the use of force against protestors on the Maidan 2 years ago? 6500+ dead, economy tanked, prices skyrocketing on everything, civil war, lost Crimea?

A good Tiananmen-style cleanup on the Maidan and none of this would have happened...

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 100): Completely agree, maybe they could become a vassal of the US and the US can pay for them.

Add Poland. North Stream beyond other reasons exists to neutralize their irrational behaviour.
( actually quite rational behaviour in scope of US interests but makes them a dangerous member in the EU. )

Europe has to get away from/neutralize US arsonry.
But US interests seem to have enough EU politicians and Eurocrats under contract to make that difficult.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 101): Good riddance, I would say.

Why would you care, you're not even Ukrainian? It will also be your tax dollars going down the drain if the EU has to support Ukraine.

Today, January 1, Ukraine's Deep and Comprehensive Free Trade Agreement with the EU entered into effect.

http://www.kyivpost.com/article/cont...eement-goes-into-force-405326.html

In retaliation, Russia has canceled its CIS Free Trade Agreement with Ukraine and introduced a ban on the import of a range of Ukrainian foodstuffs. Both measures also come into effect today. Ukraine's counter-sanctions (tariffs and import bans for certain Russian products) enter into effect from tomorrow.

http://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-econ...e-policy-with-russia-pavlenko.html

The latest childish idea the Kremlin has come up with to pester Ukraine is that Ukrainian trucks and freight railcars headed for Kazakhstan from now on can enter Russia only through Belarus. Putin issued a decree on this today:

http://publication.pravo.gov.ru/Document/View/0001201601010001


The economic divorce between Russia and Ukraine continues...

A good article on the issue:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/s...1-43c0b56f61fa-20151230-story.html

Quoting tu204 (Reply 102): You guys didn't drop your exports to Russia, you guys collapsed your economy and exports in general.

You need to get your facts straight. Ukraine's exports and imports of goods declined by 32% each, in dollar terms, during the first 10 months of the year compared to the same period last year.

Exports to Russia declined by 54%.

Imports from Russia declined by 43%.

http://ukrstat.org/en/operativ/operativ2015/zd/ztt/ztt_e/ztt1015_e.htm

Russia's importance as a trading partner for Ukraine continues to decline rapidly...


Separately, a Ukrainian ban on trade with Crimea is set to come into effect in the middle of this month:

http://www.voanews.com/content/ukrai...crimea-by-mid-january/3105277.html

Based on this, the activists that have maintained a civil blockade of Crimea are removing their checkpoints:

http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/general/315117.html

[Edited 2016-01-01 09:08:19]

Quoting Scipio (Reply 105): Russia's importance as a trading partner for Ukraine continues to decline rapidly...

Big question for you, all those goods they used to export to Russia where are they going today?

A good article on the Kremlin's information war, partly based on an interview with Margo Gontar, co-founder of the "Stop Fake" website.

http://bunews.com.ua/society/item/20...nd-begins-to-counter-kremlin-fakes

A key quote from Ms. Gontar:

Quote: “The problem is not even necessarily rooted in attitudes towards Ukraine. It is really all about Russia’s imperial complex. The main difference between Russia and Ukraine is this imperial mentality. Ukraine is a victim of empire, whereas Russia is a victim of loss of empire.”

Link to the "Stop Fake" website:

http://www.stopfake.org/en/news/

Scipio you can't even answer a simple question.

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 106): Big question for you, all those goods they used to export to Russia where are they going today?

You're so full of it, it's amazing.

At this point, if he is really is an economist I'm going to guess he has some serious vested interests in Ukraine and is not doing all this "shilling" out of the goodness in his heart...

Quoting tu204 (Reply 102): A good Tiananmen-style cleanup on the Maidan and none of this would have happened...

Apart from being morally reprehensible, your proposed "ex-post" solution overlooks a number of things:

- That kind of cleanup was exactly what Yanukovych tried to achieve during the last few days of his rule. He did not only authorize but also order the use of large-scale lethal force against Maydan. However, too many people proved willing to risk, and lose, their lives in defense of Maydan, and too few members of the security services were willing to risk their lives or potential criminal prosecution to become mass murderers on behalf of a president who was never popular and who had discredited himself in the eyes of most of the population.

- Yanukovych did not have the security apparatus needed to crack down on dissent and the inevitable popular insurgency and/or mass revolts that would have followed a (hypothetical) successful cleanup of Maydan. During his four years in power, he was too busy stealing whatever he could to spare any serious money for the security apparatus (the Berkut being the exception). And many members of the security services hated him for this and for other reasons, including because many of them are just genuine Ukrainian patriots. His control of the media was also quite limited -- nothing like the near-absolute control that the Chinese authorities could exercise after the Tiananmen massacre.

- The inevitable outcome of a successful Maydan cleanup would have been a civil war. A real one -- unlike the fake civil conflict in Donbass that was just created by Russia to disguise a covert invasion. The outcome of the civil war would likely have been the same: the ouster of Yanukovych. It would just have taken more time and lives.

- The economic crisis would have been worse. It was inevitable anyway -- Ukraine was heading for an economic crash as a result of the massive robbery and grotesque incompetence of the Yanukovych regime (that's exactly why he was bargaining for a Russian bail-out, to gain a little more (stealing) time). Add a (real) civil war and western economic sanctions against the Yanukovych regime to the picture, and the collapse would have been far worse than what we have seen now. Any Russian aid would not have made much of a difference, just as it is not making much of a difference in occupied Donbass now. The economy and living standards in occupied Donbass have completely collapsed...

Quoting tu204 (Reply 86): There is also a 10 day grace period, so if Ukraine doesn't pay on or before December 31st, 2016, it will officially be in default.

December 31 has come and gone and, guess what, no cataclysm has hit Ukraine... Its economic and financial relations with the rest of the world, Russia excepted, are undisturbed.

As I said before, the Russian debt has been effectively isolated, largely thanks to the obvious fact that Russia is not, and was not, a good-faith creditor and never seriously sought to negotiate.

The courts will decide, and I look forward to Russia making the case that the country it invaded, partially annexed, partially destroyed, and sought to undermine economically and otherwise in all sorts of ways should honor a debt to it that was issued in very questionable circumstances during the dying days of a kleptocratic, dictatorial and widely loathed regime. If there ever was an odious debt, this is it...

Remember how this debt was agreed ...

Quoting tu204 (Reply 86): I want to draw everyone's attention again to how much emphasis is put on Ukrainians getting visa-free access to the EU by Ukraine's top-level politicians.Now my question, for what? We are not talking about Ukranians getting the right to work in the EU, but to travel to the EU. Is that such a big deal for ordinary Ukranians right now? Is it even affordable for ordinary Ukranians right now?

It is important to the young, the affluent, and the influential, to businesses, and to the many reformers who are working hard and often (almost) for free to build a better Ukraine that is integrated with the rest of the world rather than being an economic and political colony of a dictatorial Russia. And nobody really likes to be artificially constrained to vacationing in their own country...

As to affordability, it is not as if flights to and from Ukraine are empty ...
There is a lot of hidden wealth in Ukraine. The official statistics capture, according to some estimates, only about 30% of Ukraine's economy.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 35): 200MW is the first line. Another 200MW line will be up before December 2015 and 400MW more before May 2016. So in half a year Crimea will have 800MW from mainland Russia plus their own generating capacity of 200MW+. So there is no more need for Ukrainian electricity, you guys screwed yourselves here. There was an export market with all the infrastructure for you, all you have to do is generate and sell. Instead you guys let idiot terrorists screw you.

We are January now, and Crimea continues to suffer electricity and heating cuts... The Kremlin's puppet leader of Crimea, Sergey "Goblin" Aksenov, seems to be losing his nerves over it ...

Ukraine partially restored some supply on one line to Crimea in December, but that line was cut again on December 31 due to a "fallen pylon".

http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/economic/315020.html

The damage has been repaired, but at year-end the contract to deliver electricity to Crimea expired. Ukraine insists that any new contract should explicitly recognize that Crimea is a (temporarily occupied) part of Ukraine.

In another episode of his theater of the absurd, Putin ordered a poll of Crimeans and -- surprise, surprise -- this poll showed that 93% of Crimeans will rather suffer power cuts than accept Ukraine's conditions for a new contract.

Straight from the propaganda mouthpiece:

http://www.rt.com/politics/327673-crimea-vote-contract-ukraine/

It's worth looking at the RT film supporting the article. The "pollsters" look like bikers from the Night Wolves ... Not intimidating at all...

One question remains. How come that it was just 93% rather than, as in good Soviet tradition, 99.9%?

[Edited 2016-01-05 18:42:42]

Quoting KiwiRob (Reply 104): It will also be your tax dollars going down the drain if the EU has to support Ukraine.

Well, the EU does not have to support Ukraine. But unfortunately, the EU recently has established a history of artificially keeping alive basket cases, e.g. Greece, and has done so in violation of its own treaties, e.g. the no-bailout clause in the Maastricht treaty.

Ukraine may not be officially in default, but they did not pay their bonds when they were due - not only to Russia. So by any standard except EU-quackspeak, they defaulted.

And we should realize that large parts of Ukraine (in the east) were Russian territory for centuries, while other parts (the west) have a very different history, culture and traditions until after WW 1. You can draw paralells to Belgium, if you like. In case of Ukraine, the best solution would be division.

And of course, refugees from Ukraine are welcome in Europe. 

Gotta love the smell of "freedumbs" in the morning

http://en.interfax.com.ua/news/economic/315796.html

Quote: Ukraine's Cabinet of Ministers has barred the State Film Agency from conducting state registration and issuing certificates for distribution and screening of films with actors who have been designated as persons that pose a threat to national security.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 110): - The inevitable outcome of a successful Maydan cleanup would have been a civil war. A real one -- unlike the fake civil conflict in Donbass that was just created by Russia to disguise a covert invasion. The outcome of the civil war would likely have been the same: the ouster of Yanukovych. It would just have taken more time and lives.

Fake civil conflict?? Ukraine is engaged in a full-out civil war in the East that has claimed over 6000 lives. But for Ukraine the worst part is that people living in Donetsk hate Ukraine and what's even worse, they hate Ukranians. How there's any chance of them living in the same state under the same government, I don't know.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RqJV5a-wkGI Sorry it's in Russian, a guy going up to people in Donetsk before New Years and asking people if they would like to wish Ukrainians a "Happy New Year"; the majoirty of people have so much hate/dislike for Ukraine that they throw the Ukranian leadership and people into the same pot and don't have anything good to say to Ukraniains to say the least.

The Ukranian Civil War is turning into a frozen conflict and it doesn't look like they will be living under the same roof for a long time now. When the population of one party to the conflict starts hating the population of the other, there's not much chance to put the two pieces back together.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 110): - That kind of cleanup was exactly what Yanukovych tried to achieve during the last few days of his rule. He did not only authorize but also order the use of large-scale lethal force against Maydan. However, too many people proved willing to risk, and lose, their lives in defense of Maydan, and too few members of the security services were willing to risk their lives or potential criminal prosecution to become mass murderers on behalf of a president who was never popular and who had discredited himself in the eyes of most of the population.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 110): - The economic crisis would have been worse. It was inevitable anyway -- Ukraine was heading for an economic crash as a result of the massive robbery and grotesque incompetence of the Yanukovych regime (that's exactly why he was bargaining for a Russian bail-out, to gain a little more (stealing) time). Add a (real) civil war and western economic sanctions against the Yanukovych regime to the picture, and the collapse would have been far worse than what we have seen now.

Ukraine's economy was heading downhill, I am not arguing that. What I am saying is that these guys drove it off a cliff and collapsed it in less than a year making knee-jerk reactions when if they were smart they could have saved ties with both the EU and Russia. However from day one they started making rash decisions, starting with a coup and leading to severing ties with your main trading partner (biting the hand that feeds you when you can't feed yourself).

Quoting Scipio (Reply 110): The economy and living standards in occupied Donbass have completely collapsed...

You are right. Just like they have in Ukraine. Difference is that in the Donbass they had a full scale shooting war with the Ukranians until recent and the rest of Ukraine was relatively peacefull.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 110): Ukraine partially restored some supply on one line to Crimea in December, but that line was cut again on December 31 due to a "fallen pylon".

Ukraine wants to build something resembling a country when they can't even keep thugs from using IED's to take out their own infrastructure. Brilliant!
Even if Russia wanted to destroy Ukraine, we wouldn't need any invasion, Ukranians are doing a wonderful job of it themselves.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 110): The damage has been repaired, but at year-end the contract to deliver electricity to Crimea expired. Ukraine insists that any new contract should explicitly recognize that Crimea is a (temporarily occupied) part of Ukraine. In another episode of his theater of the absurd, Putin ordered a poll of Crimeans and -- surprise, surprise -- this poll showed that 93% of Crimeans will rather suffer power cuts than accept Ukraine's conditions for a new contract.

In May the remaining 400MW lines will be up and running from mainland Russia and this won't be a problem for Crimeans.
And can you blame the Crimeans for excepting power cuts when the Ukranians are being such a-holes?

And while Ukranians can't control their thugs from blowing stuff up all over the place, Crimea supplied gas to a Ukranian town near the border that was experiencing cutouts from Ukraine.
https://www.rt.com/news/327923-ukraine-freezing-town-gas-supply/
See, that's the difference and that's why Crimea will never be a part of Ukraine again, and I think the same is true for Donetsk and Lughansk. The Ukranian attitude towards everything.

About Russia's chronic problem of "Ukraine denial":

http://bunews.com.ua/society/item/op...ias-chronic-case-of-ukraine-denial

Key quote:

Quote: It is hard to avoid the conclusion that Putin’s hybrid war has played a decisive role in Ukraine’s post-Soviet nation-building process. The Kremlin leader has inadvertently become chief architect of his own worst nightmare.

Great job, Vova  

Quoting tu204 (Reply 113): But for Ukraine the worst part is that people living in Donetsk hate Ukraine and what's even worse, they hate Ukranians. How there's any chance of them living in the same state under the same government, I don't know.

Funny that you claim this, while in reality Putin's aggression has driven about 40 million Ukrainians to hate Putin and "his" (version of) Russia. This includes many (former) inhabitants of Donbass. I'm sure the people remaining in Donbass are very grateful for Putin's intervention on their behalf, getting them stuck in the farcical DPR and LPR pseudo-states that stand for abject misery, banditism, and no future.

Last Summer voting trends were polled:
13% would vote for Poroschenko,
1.6% would vote for Jazenjuk

support for the oligarch lead government in Ukraine seems to be minimal.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 114): Funny that you claim this, while in reality Putin's aggression has driven about 40 million Ukrainians to hate Putin and "his" (version of) Russia.

You missed my point.

It doesn't matter that Ukranians hate Russians/Belgians/Zimbabweans or Klingons, what matters is that a couple million Ukranian citizens, which Ukraine still considers it's citizens living in the East of what Ukraine still considers it's territory hate the Ukrainian leadership, their current version of Ukraine and what's worse, are starting to hate regular Ukranians living across the DMZ.

This is the much bigger problem if Ukraine ever wants control over those territories again.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oz0xTb75FhQ Here's some more food for thought, again in Russian unfortunately. People on the streets in Donetsk are asked: "Do you think Stepan Bandera is a hero?" and the same about Stalin.

How these people are supposed to live in the same country with those that want to make Bandera a national hero is beyond me.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 114): getting them stuck in the farcical DPR and LPR pseudo-states that stand for abject misery, banditism, and no future.

Confusing, are you describing DPR/LPR or Ukraine? Your description fits both equally well.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 117):

nice.

IMU:
The low oil price and the low standing of the rubel makes imports expensive for Russia.
Which for the Russian economy could be a good thing (TM) as it boosts local demand
for food and things in general. Cheap imports maim the local economy.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 117):

You are more Ukranian than you think if you worry so much about Russia 

Its like watching/reading Ukranian media, you get the perception that you are in some sick version of Russia from the ammount of articles about Russia and Putin   

We're doing allright and we'll still be OK with oil at $10. Worry more about your own problems  

Quoting moo (Reply 80): Got any citation for that?

This Bloomberg article discusses it.

http://www.bloombergview.com/article...aine-weaned-itself-off-russian-gas

Quote: In Slovakia, the gas was Russian, delivered by the state-owned monopoly Gazprom through the Ukrainian pipeline system. Gazprom had tried to ban resale, but those conditions were in violation of European rules. In April 2015, the European Commission cited such stipulations as an example of Gazprom's abuse of its dominance in eastern and central European gas markets. Gazprom, which is trying to avoid steep fines and arrive at a settlement with the commission, could do nothing to prevent its customers from supplying Ukraine. In the fall of 2014, Gazprom tried to cut exports to Europe to eliminate "reverse supplies," but, according to a Ukrainian estimate, that cost $5.5 billion in lost revenue and another $400 million in discounts to customers as compensation for failing to meet contractual obligations. In March 2015, Russian exports resumed in full.

Quoting WIederling (Reply 115): Last Summer voting trends were polled: 13% would vote for Poroschenko, 1.6% would vote for Jazenjuk

Yet, Poroshenko's party came in ahead of the pack during the October local elections ...

Yes, people are very skeptical and critical toward Poroshenko and the Yatseniuk government, and they should be. That does not mean that they see better alternatives at the moment. There is definitely no significant appetite among Ukrainians to go back to Yanukovych times or abandon the path toward integration with the EU.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 116): You missed my point. It doesn't matter that Ukranians hate Russians/Belgians/Zimbabweans or Klingons, what matters is that a couple million Ukranian citizens, which Ukraine still considers it's citizens living in the East of what Ukraine still considers it's territory hate the Ukrainian leadership, their current version of Ukraine and what's worse, are starting to hate regular Ukranians living across the DMZ.

I think you missed the point. For starters, nobody can know what the remaining people in occupied Donbass really think, because freedom of speech was among the first things they lost thanks to Russia's intervention. And massive propaganda and brainwashing was among the first "benefits" of said intervention.

Second, the inhabitants of occupied Donbass cannot fail to notice that they have turned from being among the richest Ukrainians to being by far the poorest, again thanks to Russia's intervention "on their behalf".

Quoting tu204 (Reply 119): We're doing allright and we'll still be OK with oil at $10.

I think you haven't done the math...

Quoting Scipio (Reply 121): I think you missed the point. For starters, nobody can know what the remaining people in occupied Donbass really think, because freedom of speech was among the first things they lost thanks to Russia's intervention. And massive propaganda and brainwashing was among the first "benefits" of said intervention. Second, the inhabitants of occupied Donbass cannot fail to notice that they have turned from being among the richest Ukrainians to being by far the poorest, again thanks to Russia's intervention "on their behalf".

You don't think the fact that Ukranian shelling of Donbass cities, thousands killed and thousands of properties destroyed has anything to do with their hatred towards Ukraine?

I'll be suprised if the media in Donbass isn't critical towards Ukraine, but who needs brainwashing and propaganda when all you have to do is look outside to see the damage and remember your friends or relatives that the Ukranians killed.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 122): You don't think the fact that Ukranian shelling of Donbass cities, thousands killed and thousands of properties destroyed has anything to do with their hatred towards Ukraine?

I think that Russian shelling of Donbass cities, thousands killed and thousands of properties destroyed has a lot to do with Ukrainians' hatred towards Russia.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 123): I think that Russian shelling of Donbass cities, thousands killed and thousands of properties destroyed has a lot to do with Ukrainians' hatred towards Russia.

Geez you guys are blind.

What Russians? You mean the "pro-Russian seperatists", as in the local population? Still believe that they are shelling themselves? Shooting themselselves? Bombing themselves?  

Every post or article like this I see convinces me even further: Donbass is gone from Ukraine forever since Ukranians can't even admit that they have/had a civil war. Not even talking about taking responsibility for the damage or dead, Ukraine doesn't even admit the fact that a civil war is going on.
But people have been killed by the Ukranian military and properties destroyed. And you think these people and their relatives want to be a part of Ukraine again?

Quoting tu204 (Reply 124): But people have been killed by the Ukranian military and properties destroyed. And you think these people and their relatives want to be a part of Ukraine again?

So, if I understand you correctly, what you're saying is that Chechnya can no longer be part of Russia.

A comparison between the center of Grozny after it was "liberated" by Russian troops and the center of Slovyansk after it was liberated by Ukrainian troops:

Quoting Scipio (Reply 125): So, if I understand you correctly, what you're saying is that Chechnya can no longer be part of Russia.

Actually, the similarities with the 1st Chechen War 1994-1996 and the Civil War in Ukraine is amazing.

1) Incompetent (possibly constantly drunk Presidents).
2) Completely incompetent military leadership that constantly let those under their command to get trapped and ambushed.
3) Arrogant leadership that thought the both operations would take 1-2 weeks maximum, Chechen War went on for two years and the Civil War is on it's second year now.
4) Underestimated the resistance of the local populations.
5) Needless damage to civilian areas, thousands needlesly killed.

Besides those points, both wars started due to stupid decisions made by the Yeltsin/Poroshenko (and Turchinov) leaderships. War could have been avoided in both scenarios. Probably business interests involved in both cases.
And to conclude, in both cases Russia and Ukraine were the "bad guys" in starting these wars, Russia lost the 1st Chechen war rightfully and Ukraine is losing their Civil War in the Donbass rightfully as well.

As for the 2nd Chechen War, I would recommend both the DPR/LPR and Ukraine analyse what happened here:
1) The Chechens, after recieving de-facto independence in 1996 screwed everything from the economy, social institutions and just made Chechnya into a bandit state that the locals were so fed up with them and the major part supported Federal Forces in 2000.
2) After regaining control of the Republic, Chechens were promised and given broad autonomy, right to practice their culture, religion and also self-government. Same goes for other ethnic republics.
3) Indiviuals fighting with the rebels were given amnesty if they lay down their arms.
4) Russia rebuilt Chechnya and now Grozny is probably one of the most beautiful, clean and safest places I had visited anywhere in the world.

So the DPR has to make sure they don't screw around and that people don't want to start asking for Ukraine to come back in, keep paying pensions and support social institutes.

Ukraine has to at least give broad autonomy to the republics and full amnesty to anyone that fought against Ukrainian forces. And then dump a hell of a lot of money to fix the mess they caused.
With the current Ukranian leadership, I don't see that happening. Solution exists and isnt that difficult. Just takes will.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jan/19/crimeans-still-tigerish-over-split-with-ukraine

Few of those who initially supported the annexation have any desire to reverse the move, but there is a widespread admittance that Russian rule has not been quite the panacea for the country’s ills that had been expected.

For many, the trade blockade and electricity blackout has only reinforced their dislike of Ukraine. Even if they are hugely disappointed by events since Crimea was taken over, they still do not regret the move.

Quoting Hywel (Reply 127): Few of those who initially supported the annexation have any desire to reverse the move, but there is a widespread admittance that Russian rule has not been quite the panacea for the country’s ills that had been expected.

From what I hear, the same politicians from when Crimea was part of Ukraine are still around today, just under a different flag.

There was an issue a month or two back that Sergei Aksyonov, head of Crimea was flipping out about not recieving the funds allocated to Crimea. To which the federal government replied that distribution of these funds would have to be supervised by Federal agents, so funds were allocated, but not transferred since Crimea sees a problem with oversight.
They have to realise, they are not in Ukraine anymore and although there is still corruption in Russia, it isn't as widespread as they are used to.

Quoting Hywel (Reply 127): For many, the trade blockade and electricity blackout has only reinforced their dislike of Ukraine.

Well of course. What did Ukraine expect? A "Thank You" from ordinary citizens for the fact they have electricity cut-outs at the hands of Ukraine?

I'll possibly be on a four-day trip to Crimea this weekend. Can't wait to talk to the locals!  

Quoting Hywel (Reply 127): For many, the trade blockade and electricity blackout has only reinforced their dislike of Ukraine.

It is common sense. It's the same type of idiotic logic that makes the US government think Embargos solve anything when it actually galvanizes people against them.

Quoting Hywel (Reply 127): Few of those who initially supported the annexation have any desire to reverse the move, but there is a widespread admittance that Russian rule has not been quite the panacea for the country’s ills that had been expected.

Reading that article gives the impression that now that Putin has annexed the peninsula, he doesn't give a damn about it. It looks like it will one of those bothersome regions that the Russian government will have to perpetually throw money at to keep onside. Watch this space!

To avoid being dependent on transit routes over Russian territory, Ukraine has launched a new "Silk Road" between Europe and Central Asia / China. The route includes two sea crossings over the Black and Caspian seas, and makes use of the rail connection between the two seas that runs through Georgia and Azerbaijan.

http://uatoday.tv/business/first-car...aves-ukraine-for-china-572287.html
http://www.kyivpost.com/article/cont...-asia-bypassing-russia-406194.html

Another step towards Ukrainian economic independence from Russia...

Quoting tu204 (Reply 126): Actually, the similarities with the 1st Chechen War 1994-1996 and the Civil War in Ukraine is amazing. ... Solution exists and isnt that difficult. Just takes will.

That is a lot of words to backtrack from your previous argument that:

Quoting tu204 (Reply 124): Donbass is gone from Ukraine forever

The nature of the conflicts in Donbass and Chechnya was entirely different. Chechnya had been part of the Russian Empire / Soviet Union for only a relatively short part of its history, and sought independence. Donbass is historical Ukrainian territory in which a lot of Russian-speakers settled during the 19th and 20th centuries to work in the coal and steel industries.

The biggest similarity perhaps is that both conflicts were started by Russia in an effort to re-impose control over territories it once controlled. Only, in Donbass, Russia opted for a covert invasion that masked as a local uprising.

A conflict that is initiated by Russian agents, run by Russians, fought by Russian mercenaries and volunteers as well as regular Russian forces, bankrolled by Russia, fueled by Russian propaganda, and escalated by massive arms supplies from Russia is by no means a "Civil War".

This investigative article from Bild gives a good overview of Russia's involvement in Donbass:

http://www.bild.de/politik/ausland/u...inances-donbass-44151166.bild.html

Quoting Scipio (Reply 131): The nature of the conflicts in Donbass and Chechnya was entirely different. Chechnya had been part of the Russian Empire / Soviet Union for only a relatively short part of its history, and sought independence. Donbass is historical Ukrainian territory in which a lot of Russian-speakers settled during the 19th and 20th centuries to work in the coal and steel industries.

  
Dude, let me buy you a history book for your birthday.

All of what is now Chechnya was ceded by the Ottoman Empire in 1828, parts before that in 1813 and except a period from 1917-1920 1996-2000 were always part of the Russian Empire/Soviet Union/Russian Federation. So we are looking at 200 years.

In the Donbass there were some Cossac and Turkic settlements starting from 1670's until the late 18th Century when Yekaterina the Great settled that area as "Novorossiya" (New Russia) with Ukranian and Russian settlers. And after the late 18th Century it only magically became Ukranian in 1921, when the entire region was transferred to the Ukranian SSR.
So I don't know how you want to calculate the time Donbass is "historical Ukranian territory"? We can count 100 years back in the 17th to the 18th century and then the 25 years that Ukraine is independent now...or we can add to that when it was part of the Ukranian SSR during the USSR even though their inhabitants didn't really care that they were part of "Ukraine" and considered themselves "Soviet" citizens.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 131): That is a lot of words to backtrack from your previous argument that: Quoting tu204 (Reply 124): Donbass is gone from Ukraine forever

Sorry, didn't get a chance to elaborate on what is Ukaine's pretty much only hope to get LPR/DRP back:

1) LPR and DRP governments have to make a mess of the place. And I mean a real mess: not paying pensions, and salaries to state employees, electricity and gas blackouts, rampant crime, letting infrastructure fall apart. (So far this better describes Ukraine than LPR/DPR).

2) Ukraine and it's economy has to thrive to show a dramatic gap between living standards and disposable income in Ukraine and LPR/DPR.

3) The Ukranian leadership has to give these guys broad autonomy and full amnesty to anyone fighting against Ukraine during the civil war. Also admitting fault and taking at least some credit for all the damage and casualties would help, but not necessary.

If the above 3 happen and Ukraine regainst control:
4) Immediately rebuild the areas, compensate local civilians for any damage caused during the Civil War.

So you see there, a lot of ducks have to line up in a row for Ukraine to get Donbass back. When I said that Donbass is gone forever, it is because I don't see 2, 3 or 4 happening anytime in the near future.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 132): Dude, let me buy you a history book for your birthday.

From the series "Putin-approved Patriotic History of Russia and the World"?  

Quoting tu204 (Reply 132): All of what is now Chechnya was ceded by the Ottoman Empire in 1828, parts before that in 1813

Ahum. Chechnya was not part of the Ottoman Empire... The Ottoman Empire never expanded beyond the Southern Caucasus.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territo...al_evolution_of_the_Ottoman_Empire

Quote: Chechnya was a nation in the Northern Caucasus that fought against foreign rule continually since the 15th century.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya

Quoting tu204 (Reply 132): when Yekaterina the Great settled that area as "Novorossiya" (New Russia) with Ukranian and Russian settlers.

This is getting better and better. Yekaterina the Great settled Ukraine with Ukrainians?

Quote: the area that is now called the Donbass was largely under control of the Ukrainian Cossack Hetmanate and the Turkic Crimean Khanate until the mid-late 18th century, when the Russian Empire conquered the Hetmanate and annexed the Khanate.

Quote: Donetsk, the most important city in the region today, was founded in 1869 by British businessman John Hughes on the site of the old Zaporozhian Cossack town of Oleksandrivka.

Quote: According to the Russian Imperial Census of 1897, ethnic Ukrainians comprised 52.4% of the population of region, whilst ethnic Russians comprised 28.7%. Ethnic Greeks, Germans, Jews and Tatars also had a significant presence in the Donbass, particularly in the district of Mariupol, where they comprised 36.7% of the population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donbass

Btw, I understand that you have difficulties accepting reality. However, could you at least accept that "Ukrainian" is written with an "i" after the first "a"?

Quoting Scipio (Reply 133):

Meh, don't care. You know where I am right now? In Sevastopol, Russian Federation. Got here this morning.

I'm the kind of person that doesn't believe anything until I see it with my own eyes. Therefore I left open the chance that all I heard about Crimea and Crimean's thoughts and attitudes towards both Ukrainians and Russians was all a matter of Russian propaganda, the way it appears in Western and Ukranian propaganda.

Well that though is gone now. Seeing things for yourself and talking to people that live here does wonders.

I'll write a detailed report about my time here when I get back to the mainland on Tuesday. Want to enjoy the short time I spend here with these wonderful people that, for the record want nothing more to do with Ukraine.

Ukraine's Dnperoshina, a tyre manufacturer particularly for the tyres of military vehicle, including BTR's, has ceased production and will start bankruptcy procedures.

Now the tyres will have to be imported from France...

http://imdtyres.com/

So, Ukraine's industries keep sinking...

Quoting tu204 (Reply 134): Meh, don't care.

Indeed, it is kind of obvious that you don't really care about the historical accuracy of your claims and arguments...

Quoting tu204 (Reply 134): In Sevastopol, Russian Federation.

The obligatory correction: you are in Sevastopol, Ukraine - illegally and temporarily occupied by the Russian Federation.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 134): Want to enjoy the short time I spend here with these wonderful people that, for the record want nothing more to do with Ukraine.

Don't forget to mention to everyone that you are not an FSB agent. I mean, a fellow coming from Russia to ask everybody how much they enjoy Russian occupation might raise some suspicions...

Quoting Scipio (Reply 136): The obligatory correction: you are in Sevastopol, Ukraine - illegally and temporarily occupied by the Russian Federation.

Uhuh. If I said that here I might just get a beating from the locals. Friend bet me to get yell "Слава Украине! Крым - це Украина" in the shopping mall today. I declined because I like my teeth intact. Maybe you want to come here and take up his bet?   

Quoting Scipio (Reply 136): Don't forget to mention to everyone that you are not an FSB agent. I mean, a fellow coming from Russia to ask everybody how much they enjoy Russian occupation might raise some suspicions...

To some people here I pretended to be a Canadian from Canada speaking English without a Russian accent and pretended not to know Russian. The anti-Ukranian and pro-Russian response I got from this experiment topped anything that I got when saying I was Russian from mainland Russia. That and a bunch of anti-western/anti-Canadian rhetoric as well.
Strongest reply was from the taxi driver who told me to "get out of Russia" if I voted for "that idiot Prime Minister Harper". On the bright side, Stphen Harper put Canada on the map   

Quoting tu204 (Reply 137): Uhuh. If I said that here I might just get a beating from the locals. Friend bet me to get yell "Слава Украине! Крым - це Украина" in the shopping mall today. I declined because I like my teeth intact. Maybe you want to come here and take up his bet?

No, I won't. Because I know it is true. The Russian mob is on the loose in Crimea. Everyone who dares to express pro-Ukrainian views is at risk of being beaten up, arrested, or worse.

That is why everyone who holds pro-Ukrainian views keeps quiet or pays lip service to the pro-Russian line.

And that is what makes your whole little exercise of "going to Sevastopol to see for myself what people really think" ridiculous in the first place.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 138): No, I won't. Because I know it is true. The Russian mob is on the loose in Crimea. Everyone who dares to express pro-Ukrainian views is at risk of being beaten up, arrested, or worse. That is why everyone who holds pro-Ukrainian views keeps quiet or pays lip service to the pro-Russian line. And that is what makes your whole little exercise of "going to Sevastopol to see for myself what people really think" ridiculous in the first place.

C'mon, you are embarassing ordinary Belgians with that level of nieveness   

Here's some more Kremlin Propaganda for you: My Sberbank Mastercard works in Crimea   

Antonov is no more

Quote: Ukraine liquidates Antonov after transfer of capabilities to Ukroboronprom

http://www.janes.com/article/57516/u...r-of-capabilities-to-ukroboronprom

Ukraine keeps dilapidating whatever little industry they had left.

They are probably going to try to use the little money Antonov was able to pull in to prop up the rest of Ukraine's failing industries.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 139): Here's some more Kremlin Propaganda for you: My Sberbank Mastercard works in Crimea

Hopefully they will keep you there and not let you into EU anymore... Another russian troll spreading their hate...

Quoting dallasnewark (Reply 141): Hopefully they will keep you there and not let you into EU anymore...

Who is "they"? And how are "they" supposed to keep me from travelling where I want to?  

But for the record it's in your interests especially in Estonia's that I and other Russians want to travel to the E.U. and especially your country (and the rest of the Baltic states) since that is where most of your tourism revenue come from.

As for me, I've travelled the EU more than enough and go there when necessary. For recreational travel I found more interesting places for myself.  

Quoting tu204 (Reply 142): Who is "they"? And how are "they" supposed to keep me from travelling where I want to?   But for the record it's in your interests especially in Estonia's that I and other Russians want to travel to the E.U. and especially your country (and the rest of the Baltic states) since that is where most of your tourism revenue come from.

Going to occupied territories will do wonders to your visa application to EU.....

Quoting dallasnewark (Reply 144): Going to occupied territories will do wonders to your visa application to EU.....

Occupied by who?

Btw, I have a Canadian passport lying around, so I don't really need a visa to go the EU. And on most visa applications I've seen, there is a question on what foreign countries you have visited, but none regarding where have you travelled inside your country.

And for your information, I'd rather visit Crimea again than anywhere in the EU...especially with statements like yours. Better my fellow countrymen get my money than yourself.

You should know though that your view isn't shared by your fellow "Europeans". When I was in Croatia for work related travel, I was given a discount at the hotel for being from Russia and had several business owners apologize for their government when they asked me where I was from.
So not all hope is lost for you guys.

[Edited 2016-01-29 10:26:51]

Quoting dallasnewark (Reply 144): Going to occupied territories will do wonders to your visa application to EU.....

Millions visit "occupied" Crimea every year, including MPs of many European countries. And no wonders...

Quoting Hywel (Reply 127): Even if they are hugely disappointed by events since Crimea was taken over, they still do not regret the move.

Who will regret the move out of that failed, poor and aggressive state?

Quoting Scipio (Reply 131): To avoid being dependent on transit routes over Russian territory, Ukraine has launched a new "Silk Road" between Europe and Central Asia / China.

And? There are 2 ferries on the way (Black Sea and Caspian Sea). What is the cost of delivery of a container? It's twice the cost of the same service via Russian railway. And Ukraine isn't that much of a market (esp. with latest devastation) in order for this route to gain economies of scale.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 131): A conflict that is initiated by Russian agents, run by Russians, fought by Russian mercenaries and volunteers as well as regular Russian forces, bankrolled by Russia, fueled by Russian propaganda, and escalated by massive arms supplies from Russia is by no means a "Civil War".

Oh please. Nobody never saw any "Russian forces" there, unfortunately. Otherwise not only this conflict, but the whole idea of Ukrainian independence would have been done away with in less than a week. The conflict is between Ukrainian forces and local people. They are no longer Ukrainian people - there's a saying "The army shoots into their own people only once. After that it shoots into some other people.".

Quoting Acheron (Reply 135): So, Ukraine's industries keep sinking...

Same as with the rest of Eastern Europe - poor, agricultural/tourist, de-industrialized states, that simply can't exist outside of EU.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 126): As for the 2nd Chechen War, I would recommend both the DPR/LPR and Ukraine analyse what happened here: 1) The Chechens, after recieving de-facto independence in 1996 screwed everything from the economy, social institutions and just made Chechnya into a bandit state that the locals were so fed up with them and the major part supported Federal Forces in 2000.

Agree. The Chechens de-facto had their independence. But for them, it turned out that dudes like Hattab from somewhere in the middle east can cut a head of whoever they feel like whenever they feel like. Expectedly, they decided they don't need such "independence", and Russian state is better.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 138): holds pro-Ukrainian views

Pro-what views? Who cares about Ukraine? It's a totally failed state, a territory without any social structures and with uncontrolled gangs of "patriots" who think that once they kicked out Yanukovich they can do whatever they feel like. In order to use word "pro-Ukrainian" there has to be a state of Ukraine, but there isn't.

Quoting dallasnewark (Reply 141): Hopefully they will keep you there and not let you into EU anymore...

So what now - not to let 150 mln people into the EU at all now? Crimea is popular destination for Russians. And Russian tourist firms sell Crimean tours on the West as well.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 138): No, I won't. Because I know it is true. The Russian mob is on the loose in Crimea. Everyone who dares to express pro-Ukrainian views is at risk of being beaten up, arrested, or worse.

Really? You described the reality in Ukraine pretty much. And in Russia - those "patriots" frequently try to show off their flag, sing their favorite song "Putin XXXX lalala", and guess what happens? Nothing. Nobody cares. Russians don't even want to waste their time and energy on them.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 135): Ukraine's Dnperoshina, a tyre manufacturer particularly for the tyres of military vehicle, including BTR's, has ceased production and will start bankruptcy procedures.

So what? Dneproshina already went bankrupt before, in 2012. Hardly a model company.
It is just one of several tire manufacturers in Ukraine, and not the largest.

The largest is Rosava:

http://rosava.com/en/about/

Bankruptcies happen in every market economy. It's not because you can find one that you should be crowing "yoohoo - Ukraine's economy is collapsing".

Quoting Acheron (Reply 140): Antonov is no more

You should do your homework before rushing to call the demise of Ukraine's industry.

As already mentioned in other threads, all that is happening is that a holding company named after Antonov is being liquidated. The aircraft company is alive and well as a subsidiary of Ukroboronprom.

Antonov even felt compelled to issue a press release for people like you:

http://www.antonov.com/news/439

Quoting anrec80 (Reply 147): Pro-what views? Who cares about Ukraine? It's a totally failed state, a territory without any social structures and with uncontrolled gangs of "patriots" who think that once they kicked out Yanukovich they can do whatever they feel like. In order to use word "pro-Ukrainian" there has to be a state of Ukraine, but there isn't.

As RIX remarked in the Antonov thread, you're funny. So much fantasy / fiction ...
You're outdoing even the Russian propaganda machine...

Quoting tu204 (Reply 139): Here's some more Kremlin Propaganda for you: My Sberbank Mastercard works in Crimea

That is neither propaganda nor news: Mastercard cards have worked in Crimea since last spring:

http://www.kyivpost.com/content/busi...mea-visa-may-soon-work-389709.html

However, Sberbank is not operating in Crimea, and neither is any of the other self-respecting Russian banks.

The banks and bankers that do operate in Crimea are mostly of the odious kind:

http://www.occrp.org/en/investigatio...sial-russian-bankers-target-crimea

http://intpolicydigest.org/2015/09/25/crimea-money-launderers-welcome/

[Edited 2016-01-31 07:56:53]