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Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sun Nov 08, 2015 5:55 pm

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Scipio
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RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:44 pm

The latest news from Ukraine, in a nutshell, is as follows:

- The ceasefire in the east, after holding for quite some time, now seems to be starting to break down. Heavy weapons were withdrawn from the frontline under supervision of the OSCE (with one side being, as usual, more cooperative than the other), but the Ukrainians are now considering bringing them back due to the increasing ceasefire violations from the Russian side.

- Elections in the Russian-occupied territories have been postponed indefinitely pending agreement on their modalities. It remains uncertain whether any such agreement is possible.

- Local elections have taken place in free Ukraine, completing the overhaul of power since the Euromaydan revolution. The results are reasonably reassuring. Much of the old elite was removed from (local) power, and the differences in results between the east and the west were less pronounced than in past elections. Second-round voting took place this past Sunday, November 15.

- A prominent politician and businessman closely linked to oligarch Kolomoyskiy, Hennadiy Korban, was arrested. This seems to be a further escalation in the developing war between Poroshenko and Kolomoyskiy and/or a further step in Ukraine's war against the oligarchs. The jury is out...


Meanwhile, Ukraine continues to rapidly boost its military capabilities, in the first place by restoring to service and upgrading mothballed equipment, and training its military personnel. This effort is supported by volunteer organizations and massive material and moral support from the Ukrainian people, technical assistance from NATO, bilateral foreign aid (including training) from various countries (in particular, the US, Canada, Poland, and the UK), a resurgent domestic defense industry, and rapidly developing links between Ukraine's defense industry and western peers.

Ukraine has built multiple lines of defense around the Russian-occupied territories in the east and continues to work hard on reinforcing and securing its border with Russia.

Some footage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eN97HvGJamY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tczRZnt1hkA

A film about Ukraine's Airmobile Forces:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEqIJRDPLyM

Pretty much every interview in this film is in Russian, which supports what I have said before: Putin's mercenaries in Donbass were defeated in the first place by Russian-speaking Ukrainians.

[Edited 2015-11-01 17:04:57]
 
Scipio
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RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sun Nov 22, 2015 2:54 pm

Power was cut to Crimea overnight, as Crimean Tatar and other Ukrainian activists blew up the power lines that supply electricity from mainland Ukraine to occupied Crimea. Scuffles took place around the power lines between the activists and police on Saturday.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...-of-emergency-power-lines-attacked

The activists seek a total economic blockade of occupied Crimea.



Yesterday, Ukraine marked the second anniversary of the start of Euromaydan, which later morphed into what the Ukrainians now refer to as their "Revolution of Dignity".

Euromaydan started with a few thousand people gathering in Kyiv's Maydan late in the evening of November 21, 2013, to protest the Yanukovych regime's decision not to sign the Association Agreement with the EU.

http://www.unian.info/society/119016...ng-day-of-dignity-and-freedom.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=24PoQun6aG4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6Si_XiClds

November 21 is now an official holiday in Ukraine.

The US Embassy in Kyiv produced a video to mark the occasion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGjpy58Eas8


Meanwhile, in western Ukraine, US instructors have started training Ukrainian special forces.

http://www.mil.gov.ua/en/news/2015/1...ainian-special-forces-specialists/

http://uatoday.tv/politics/us-begins...g-for-ukrainian-troops-538946.html

A good background article from the WP:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/c...es-a-war-of-misuse-and-ill-supply/
 
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pu
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RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Mon Nov 23, 2015 6:12 am

Thanks for the update, Scipio.

The European response has been something less than overwhelming. I cannot imagine that Russia invading Canada or Mexico would gather such an indecisive reaction from the US as the EU's reaction to the Ukrainian invasion.

Still, I cautiously think things just might tend up reasonably well.




Pu.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:43 am

Quoting Scipio (Reply 2):
Power was cut to Crimea overnight, as Crimean Tatar and other Ukrainian activists blew up the power lines that supply electricity from mainland Ukraine to occupied Crimea. Scuffles took place around the power lines between the activists and police on Saturday.

But the idiots didn't realise that when they cut the lines to Crimea they also cut off power to most of the Kherson region, which is still part of Ukraine.
 
WIederling
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RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:54 am

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 4):
But the idiots didn't realise that w...

Ever seen fully rational terrorists ?

WIth the coming winter in full view : Is Ukraine still dependent on Russian gas supply ?
Murphy is an optimist
 
Scipio
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RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:38 pm

Ukraine today decided to fully close its airspace for Russian airlines. The ban comes into effect at midnight.

Recall that Ukraine and Russia already introduced air traffic sanctions against each other. Ukraine initially banned Russian airlines that fly to occupied Crimea from serving Ukrainian airports, until they pay the fines and fees Ukraine claims from them. Russia retaliated by entirely banning all Ukrainian airlines from its airports and airspace. Ukraine than expanded its sanctions to all Russian airlines, including those not serving Crimea. Today's decision essentially brings Ukraine's sanctions on a par with Russia's by banning Russian airlines from using Ukraine's airspace.

The flights affected are mostly those to Turkey (the irony ... ), Cyprus, the Balkans and, especially, Moldova.

Aeroflot flights lately already have been avoiding Ukrainian airspace for the most part (flights to Chisinau being an exception), but other Russian carriers have continued to overfly Ukrainian territory since the earlier sanctions came into effect.

Quoting WIederling (Reply 5):
Is Ukraine still dependent on Russian gas supply ?

No. It imports most of its gas from the EU these days.

Incidentally, Ukraine today also announced that it has instructed its national gas company to stop buying gas from Russia.



An interesting article about the situation in occupied Donbass, written by a Russian journalist:

http://meduza.io/en/feature/2015/11/...onbass-war-assessing-the-aftermath

"Catastrophic fall in living standards..."
 
andrej
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RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:49 pm

Having been to Ukraine several times, I feel bad for its normal people. Their lives were tough no matter who ruled the country. I really hope that Poroshenko's administration will make lives easier and the corruption will continue to secede.

For example, in 2000s one had to pay the border patrols few Hryvnias to enter the country. On my recent visits in 2013 and 2014 this was not the case anymore.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 6):
No. It imports most of its gas from the EU these days.

But where does that gas comes from? For example, Slovakia is legally supplying Ukraine with natural gas, but that gas comes from Russia. It goes via Ukraine to Slovakia and then straight back.

It would be interesting to see actual % that is not of Russian origin. Is there such statistic available?
 
sovietjet
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RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:12 pm

Quoting andrej (Reply 7):
I really hope that Poroshenko's administration will make lives easier and the corruption will continue to secede.

I wouldn't bet on it...
 
Scipio
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RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:29 am

Quoting andrej (Reply 7):
But where does that gas comes from? For example, Slovakia is legally supplying Ukraine with natural gas, but that gas comes from Russia. It goes via Ukraine to Slovakia and then straight back.

It doesn't really matter, does it? Slovakia delivers gas to Ukraine at better conditions and more securely than Russia. Gas is fungible, and can be traded within the EU's increasingly integrated gas market regardless of its origin ...

In any case, part of the gas delivered via Slovakia supposedly comes from Norway.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/...0RY2UC20141003#9tVCvKxiMVWCdUcY.97

Quoting andrej (Reply 7):
It would be interesting to see actual % that is not of Russian origin. Is there such statistic available?

I have not seen such a statistic.
 
Hywel
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RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Thu Nov 26, 2015 11:51 am

Quoting Scipio (Reply 9):
It doesn't really matter, does it? Slovakia delivers gas to Ukraine at better conditions and more securely than Russia. Gas is fungible, and can be traded within the EU's increasingly integrated gas market regardless of its origin ...

It kinda does matter, because Gazprom can just as easily switch off their gas supply to Slovakia as to Ukraine.

As for Ukraine buying Norwegian oil, as soon as they default on a payment (which can't be too long), then the contract will be terminated and they'll have to look elsewhere.
 
lancelot07
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RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Thu Nov 26, 2015 12:27 pm

Quoting Scipio (Reply 9):

It doesn't really matter, does it? Slovakia delivers gas to Ukraine at better conditions and more securely than Russia. Gas is fungible, and can be traded within the EU's increasingly integrated gas market regardless of its origin ...

Forget the "better conditions", Ukraine had very good conditions for russian gas, far better than the west.
Of course, the russians wanted to be paid. So Slovakia and other suppliers better watch out !

And since Gazprom (and the russians) need money just like everybody else, they will not stop delivery as long as they are paid.
 
tu204
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RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:44 pm

Quoting Scipio (Reply 2):
Power was cut to Crimea overnight, as Crimean Tatar and other Ukrainian activists blew up the power lines that supply electricity from mainland Ukraine to occupied Crimea. Scuffles took place around the power lines between the activists and police on Saturday.

Good example.
Can you imagine any other developed country where someone uses an IED to take down a powerline structure and get away with it? An IED?!?! Try that shit anywhere and you will rightfully be labelled a terrorist and not an activist.
After which the terrorists don't alllow the repair crews to do their work and the police just stand nearby and do almost nothing?

Thankfully for the Crimeans, the first line of the undersea power cable to Crimea will be operational in late December, the second and third lines will be up in a year along with the 4th Reactor of the Rostov Nuclear Power Station.

But once again, those wonderfull imbiciles that screwed the Ukrainian producers with their "food blocade" and now this garbage have gotten the Crimeans to hate Ukraine even more.
Good job. You sure they aren't Putin's agents in disguise?

Quoting Scipio (Reply 9):
Slovakia delivers gas to Ukraine at better conditions

I guess Slovakia doesn't yet realise they will never see their money.
Poor Slovakia...
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
Scipio
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RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:53 pm

Quoting Hywel (Reply 10):
It kinda does matter, because Gazprom can just as easily switch off their gas supply to Slovakia as to Ukraine.

Gazprom has no legal ground to do so and would only be shooting itself in the foot, further undermining its reputation and reducing its revenues. It would also almost certainly incur EU sanctions as a result.

It seems to understand this, as it continues to supply gas to Slovakia while Slovakia is pumping lots of gas to Ukraine ...

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 11):
Forget the "better conditions", Ukraine had very good conditions for russian gas, far better than the west.

You may want to inform yourself better. Russia has been charging Ukraine, at different times, far below and far above market prices for gas, depending on its mood and the state of Russian-Ukrainian relations. No reasonable person can deny that Russia has abused Ukraine's dependency on its gas as a political weapon and as a tool to corrupt the Ukrainian elites ...

For much of the recent past, Russia has charged Ukraine about twice as much as Germany for the same gas, even while delivering gas to Germany through Ukrainian pipelines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russia%E2%80%93Ukraine_gas_disputes

Quoting Hywel (Reply 10):
As for Ukraine buying Norwegian oil, as soon as they default on a payment (which can't be too long), then the contract will be terminated and they'll have to look elsewhere.
Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 11):
Of course, the russians wanted to be paid. So Slovakia and other suppliers better watch out !
Quoting tu204 (Reply 12):
I guess Slovakia doesn't yet realise they will never see their money.
Poor Slovakia...

You guys are taking your fantasies for reality. Ukraine is current on its -- legitimate -- gas bills to Gazprom and to other suppliers. It has received credit lines from international financial institutions to pay its gas bills through the coming winter. The biggest loser here is Gazprom / Russia, which has essentially lost the Ukrainian market. Probably forever...

Slovakia and Norway are likely among the long-term winners in this story.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 12):
Can you imagine any other developed country where someone uses an IED to take down a powerline structure and get away with it?

I can't think of many precedents, just as I cannot think of many precedents of a country sending "little green men", mercenaries, and terrorists into a neighboring country to destabilize it and annex parts of it.

I think most reasonable people sympathize with the Crimean Tatars on this one. Certainly most Ukrainians do.
Why should the Ukrainian government oppress people who oppose the illegal occupation of Ukrainian territory and human rights abuses in this occupied territory?

There are some basic realities here that you refuse to acknowledge:

- support among Crimeans for Russia's annexation was never anywhere near the levels claimed by you and your government (let alone Kiwinocchio). Resistance, passive and active, against this annexation is much stronger than you are willing to admit. The powerlines were taken down, almost certainly, by Crimeans (shall we call them Crimean freedom fighters?).

- Russia is spectacularly failing to deliver the better lives that it promised Crimeans. Russia promised paradise, it delivered international isolation, economic depression, shortages and inflated prices for basic products, body bags from Donbass and other obscure conflicts, military draft into the Russian army and Putin's military adventures, human rights abuses, censorship and indoctrination, and electricity blackouts...

- when was the last time there was a spontaneous pro-Russian mass rally in Crimea?
 
lancelot07
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RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:13 am

Quoting Scipio (Reply 13):
You guys are taking your fantasies for reality. Ukraine is current on its -- legitimate -- gas bills to Gazprom and to other suppliers. It has received credit lines from international financial institutions to pay its gas bills through the coming winter

International institutions ? The EU pays. WE pay! And this is something i don't like. And it would be far better to let them freeze to cool their heads, and use our money for ourselves. After all, most of Ukraine was a part of Russia for hundreds of years.
 
tu204
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RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Fri Nov 27, 2015 4:21 pm

Quoting Scipio (Reply 13):
For much of the recent past, Russia has charged Ukraine about twice as much as Germany for the same gas, even while delivering gas to Germany through Ukrainian pipelines.

Ukraine was paying something like $350 and Germany around $300 something. Difference is that Germany paid on time and Ukraine constantly requires a kick in the ass to get payment.

Let me give you an example so you can understand:
"Kiwinocchio" buys an apple from me and pays me 100 Roubles right away after recieving the apple.
Scipio buys an apple, whines and moans about how much the apple is, refuses to pass along apples that "Kiwinocchio" bought from me and puts them into his own pockets; I have to annualy cut off you supply of apples so you pay up for the apples you already recieve.
In other words, I spend 90% of my time dealing with Scipio and 10% of my time dealing with "Kiwinocchio".
But wait, "Kiwinocchio" buys 1000 apples a month when Scipio only buys 100 apples a month.
Do you really think that Scipio is going to be charged 100 Roubles/apple? Or do you think I should charge 150 Roubles/apple because Scipio is such a pain in the rear end and wastes so much of my time and buys several times fewer apples?

Quoting Scipio (Reply 13):
I think most reasonable people sympathize with the Crimean Tatars on this one.

Yeah, I don't think that all the Crimean Tatars would like you throwing them in the same pot as a couple goofs like Chubarov and Dzhemilev. But yes, I do sympathize with them because very often people paint them with the same brush.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 13):
- support among Crimeans for Russia's annexation was never anywhere near the levels claimed by you and your government (let alone Kiwinocchio). Resistance, passive and active, against this annexation is much stronger than you are willing to admit. The powerlines were taken down, almost certainly, by Crimeans (shall we call them Crimean freedom fighters?).

Wanna actually back up your claims? Especially that Crimeans crossed the border and blew up power linesin Ukraine.
  

Quoting Scipio (Reply 13):
- Russia is spectacularly failing to deliver the better lives that it promised Crimeans. Russia promised paradise, it delivered international isolation, economic depression, shortages and inflated prices for basic products

Wouldn't say so. Maybe what they expected was more, but compare the situation in Crimea to what is going on in Ukraine, they are much better off.
Only problem now is electrical failures, but that's Ukraine's fault anyways and will be fixed in about a month.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 13):
Why should the Ukrainian government oppress people who oppose the illegal occupation of Ukrainian territory and human rights abuses in this occupied territory?

Because this "opposition" is a bunch of monkeys running around with dynamite. Literally!
They are blowing up government property with explosives! Maybe in Ukraine that is the status quo and normal now but elsewhere it isn't.

Plus these people are nicely damaging the already crippled Ukrainian economy.
Do you realize that Ukraine is fined $166,000/day for failing to provide the agreed upon electricity to Crimea? That is the fine, plus all the missed income from not selling the actual product (electricity) to Crimea.

Fortunately the Russian Govnment is able to think a step ahead and last year:
a) Transported a bunch of mobile gas turbine generators to Crimea in case this crap would happen.
b) Started laying undersea cables from Krasnodar Krai to Crimea, part of which will be completed in one month.

Maybe you guys should start actually thinking about what you are doing and stop shooting yourselves in the foot? Domestically and Internatially?
Because:

Quoting lancelot07 (Reply 14):
International institutions ? The EU pays. WE pay! And this is something i don't like. And it would be far better to let them freeze to cool their heads, and use our money for ourselves

Ukraine is out of trend right now, the EU has bigger things to worry about that pay for your carnival.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
Scipio
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RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sun Nov 29, 2015 10:00 pm

Putin -- bringing nations together...


Five days ago, Ukrainian volunteer organization The People's Project produced a video to pay tribute to the Turkish Air Force.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIJGMfJeKrw


On Friday, Turkish Haci Productions responded with a video tribute to the Ukrainian army.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uMoUW6Ksjc


Meanwhile, Ukraine and Turkey are exploring greater cooperation in defense matters, especially military industry:

http://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-defe...ilitary-technical-cooperation.html
http://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-defe...intly-develop-marine-industry.html
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sun Nov 29, 2015 10:21 pm

Quoting Scipio (Reply 16):
Five days ago, Ukrainian volunteer organization The People's Project produced a video to pay tribute to the Turkish Air Force.

Maybe this volunteer group should focus instead of how to make their own country more livable in this crisis.

Been in Kiev the past few days and the state of affairs here is worse than it was a few months back. The prices for rent, gas, electricity, water and food are rising rapidly and people have no where to run and stop this nonsense. The lady across the hall from my apartment has stopped using electricity when at all possible, including at night time just to save on bills because her pension now does not cover even the basic necessities. Sad.

Can't wait to see what this comes to in another few months time.  
 
Hywel
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RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Mon Nov 30, 2015 4:44 am

A little bit off-topic, but:

http://www.baltic-course.com/eng/baltic_states/?doc=102909

One of my Lithuanian friends who studied in Canada and now settled there, cannot return to his home country for fear of being forced into conscription. All male citizens up to age 27 were included on the list (even those living overseas), and his "number" was called up in the lottery, meaning if he returns, theoretically he can be stopped at the border and forced into military service for 9 months.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Mon Nov 30, 2015 8:01 am

Quoting Hywel (Reply 18):
One of my Lithuanian friends who studied in Canada and now settled there, cannot return to his home country for fear of being forced into conscription. All male citizens up to age 27 were included on the list

What a pussy, conscription is a fact of life for many males living in Europe, it's 12 months of his life, he should go and get it done. Also if he wants to visit he could easily fly into any other country in Europe than take a flight to Lithuania, there's no immigration coming via another schengen country., he could visit without alerting the authorities to his presence.
 
Hywel
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RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:05 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 19):
What a pussy, conscription is a fact of life for many males living in Europe, it's 12 months of his life, he should go and get it done. Also if he wants to visit he could easily fly into any other country in Europe than take a flight to Lithuania, there's no immigration coming via another schengen country., he could visit without alerting the authorities to his presence.

It'd be fine if he was young and single. But he's 25 and married with a kid and career in Canada now. There was a case in the news of a guy going back to visit family in Lithuania, and he had a knock from the police one night at his hotel, but somehow he was let off. But yes, entering via another Schengen country would be one idea if you kept a low profile.
 
tu204
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RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:38 pm

Quoting Scipio (Reply 16):
Five days ago, Ukrainian volunteer organization The People's Project produced a video to pay tribute to the Turkish Air Force.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIJGMfJeKrw


On Friday, Turkish Haci Productions responded with a video tribute to the Ukrainian army.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uMoU...6Ksjc

Congratulations to Ukranians on their great achievement, making a video tribute and having one made about you is definately an enormous achievment!

After all, who needs a functioning economy, reasonable standards of living or government that actually has control of radical groups inside the country that further screws the economy by blowing up electrical pylons? Making videos about Turkish Forces and having Turks make one about you is far more important!
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Aeroflot777
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RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:40 pm

Quoting Hywel (Reply 18):
One of my Lithuanian friends who studied in Canada and now settled there, cannot return to his home country for fear of being forced into conscription. All male citizens up to age 27 were included on the list (even those living overseas), and his "number" was called up in the lottery, meaning if he returns, theoretically he can be stopped at the border and forced into military service for 9 months.
Quoting Hywel (Reply 20):
It'd be fine if he was young and single. But he's 25 and married with a kid and career in Canada now.

Nothing out of the ordinary.

Many countries require military service. When I was between the age of 18-26 inclusive, I always had to carefully plan my trips home to make sure they don't coincide with the draft season (of which there are two a year). Otherwise I'd be taken in and consequently lose my job, which I couldn't afford to do at that time for personal reasons.

"even those living overseas" and "married with a kid and career in Canada"

This is entirely irrelevant and simply not how things work. When you are a citizen of a certain country, you have to abide by your homeland's laws and regulations, regardless of your location. Otherwise, if you wish, you need to renounce citizenship and be free. So no, just because he is camping out in Canada with a family does not rid him of his service to his country.

[Edited 2015-11-30 04:41:03]
 
Hywel
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RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Mon Nov 30, 2015 12:45 pm

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 22):
This is entirely irrelevant and simply not how things work. When you are a citizen of a certain country, you have to abide by your homeland's laws and regulations, regardless of your location. Otherwise, if you wish, you need to renounce citizenship and be free. So no, just because he is camping out in Canada with a family does not rid him of his service to his country.

I agree. But the point is, Lithuania has only recently reintroduced conscription due to the "threat" from Russia, a gross overreaction which has zero merit.
 
Kiwirob
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RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Mon Nov 30, 2015 1:00 pm

Quoting Hywel (Reply 20):
It'd be fine if he was young and single. But he's 25 and married with a kid and career in Canada now.

25 is still young, it's his choice, he can either man up and do the right thing or renounce his citizenship and never return to the Lithuania. It's not like he's going to war it's just national service.

Quoting Hywel (Reply 23):
But the point is, Lithuania has only recently reintroduced conscription

They stopped conscription in 2008, so many of his peers would have already done national service.

Quoting Hywel (Reply 23):
a gross overreaction which has zero merit.

This I agree with.
 
Hywel
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RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Mon Nov 30, 2015 4:06 pm

Quoting Scipio (Reply 16):
Five days ago, Ukrainian volunteer organization The People's Project produced a video to pay tribute to the Turkish Air Force.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIJGMfJeKrw


On Friday, Turkish Haci Productions responded with a video tribute to the Ukrainian army.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2uMoUW6Ksjc

Laughable really. Don't they have better things to do?

Quoting Scipio (Reply 16):
Meanwhile, Ukraine and Turkey are exploring greater cooperation in defense matters, especially military industry:

http://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-defe...ilitary-technical-cooperation.html
http://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-defe...intly-develop-marine-industry.html

I bet officials in both Ukraine and Turkey are already rubbing their hands at how much money they can personally reap from this. Two of the most corrupt countries in Europe coming together to collaborate on defence? Haha
 
Acheron
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RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Mon Nov 30, 2015 4:31 pm

Quoting tu204 (Reply 21):
Congratulations to Ukranians on their great achievement, making a video tribute and having one made about you is definately an enormous achievment!

After all, who needs a functioning economy, reasonable standards of living or government that actually has control of radical groups inside the country that further screws the economy by blowing up electrical pylons? Making videos about Turkish Forces and having Turks make one about you is far more important!

Not picture in those videos:

Scipio's Ukranian wonderboys worshiping ISIS.
 
Scipio
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RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Mon Nov 30, 2015 11:06 pm

Here are two levelheaded assessments of where Ukraine stands with its reforms, two years after the start of Euromaidan.

- On overall reforms, by Alexander Motyl:

http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs...lowly-but-surely-kyiv-comes-around

- On economic reforms, by Anders Aslund:

http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs...maidan-what-has-been-accomplished?

I don't agree with Motyl that there has been no progress on corruption. There has been progress, which in some areas is very significant. A prime example is the new police force, which by all accounts is by and large clean. The overall progress is, however, unsatisfactory. And no, the west should not relent in its push for fighting corruption.

Incidentally, Ukraine today appointed a chief Anti-Corruption Prosecutor:

http://www.unian.info/politics/11984...orruption-prosecutor-appoined.html

Motyl is also wrong in stating that:

Quote:
not a single Yanukovych crony, Party of Regions bigwig, oligarch, or shooter of demonstrators has been prosecuted

People in all these categories are being prosecuted. However, virtually none of these prosecutions have been brought to completion, there have not yet been significant convictions, and many known crooks have thus far not been bothered by the Prosecutor's Office.

[Edited 2015-11-30 15:33:58]

[Edited 2015-11-30 15:35:02]
 
Hywel
Posts: 704
Joined: Sun Apr 13, 2008 12:51 pm

RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Tue Dec 01, 2015 5:36 am

Quoting Scipio (Reply 27):
Here are two levelheaded assessments of where Ukraine stands with its reforms, two years after the start of Euromaidan.

Started to read the first one, and then saw

Quote:
... governance-related categories in Freedom House's Nations in Transit study ...


https://web.archive.org/web/20121212002804/http://paul.house.gov/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=217&Itemid=60

Quote:
The US government, through the US Agency for International Development (USAID), granted millions of dollars to the Poland-America-Ukraine Cooperation Initiative (PAUCI), which is administered by the US-based Freedom House.

PAUCI then sent US Government funds to numerous Ukrainian non-governmental organizations (NGOs). This would be bad enough and would in itself constitute meddling in the internal affairs of a sovereign nation. But, what is worse is that many of these grantee organizations in Ukraine are blatantly in favor of presidential candidate Viktor Yushchenko.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 10790
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:51 am

Quoting Scipio (Reply 27):
There has been progress, which in some areas is very significant.

Which areas? Not in business, for sure, it's still rife in hospitals, patients are still paying for medication and quicker service.
 
tu204
Posts: 1490
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Tue Dec 01, 2015 10:26 am

Quoting Scipio (Reply 27):
Here are two levelheaded assessments of where Ukraine stands with its reforms, two years after the start of Euromaidan.

- On overall reforms, by Alexander Motyl:

http://www.atlanticcouncil.org/blogs...round

  
Thanks for that link!
Are you Alexander Motyl? You guys have a similar style.

"Freedom House assigns scores between 1 and 7 (with 1 being the best and 7 the worst) to seven institutional categories: electoral process, civil society, independent media, national democratic governance, local democratic governance, judicial framework and independence, and corruption. As these categories focus primarily on politics, I've added seven more to round out the picture: international relations, security, armed forces and police, education, culture and identity, economic well-being, and economic stability and reform. (Unlike Freedom House, which assigns scores to Ukraine together with its Russian-occupied territories, I will assign scores only to "free" Ukraine.)"

I love this dude. Just make up some categories and then figure out scores that fit your liking. 

If only I had the time, or if someone paid me to find the time I (or anyone with half a brain really) could sit here for an hour and pick almost every point he makes in that article apart and flunk it.

Alexander Motyl is Professor of Political Science at Rutgers University-Newark.
I guess Rutgers University-Newark is one place you probably don't want to go to study Political Science   

Can you set me up with a job there at the Atlantic Council? I can also be an analyst just like Mr.Motyl, especially if you pour me a couple beers.  
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
tu204
Posts: 1490
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Wed Dec 02, 2015 9:08 pm

Quoting Scipio (Reply 2):
Power was cut to Crimea overnight, as Crimean Tatar and other Ukrainian activists blew up the power lines that supply electricity from mainland Ukraine to occupied Crimea. Scuffles took place around the power lines between the activists and police on Saturday.

Tell me, does it make you wonder why these terrorists decided to blow up the electricity going to Crimea less than a month before the undersea cable from the Russian mainland becomes operational?
http://lenta.ru/news/2015/12/02/putin_crimea/ (In Russian, first line of the undersea cable to Crimea is operational)
Just look, today the first 200MW line is coming online, the second 200MW will be up in late December and the remaining 400MWs in May 2016.
Forgot to mention, for this little stunt with not being able to re-establish the electricity supply to Crimea not only did Ukraine lose millions in lost revenue, but Russia, Lughansk and Donetsk stopped shipping coal to Ukraine. Coal happens to be one of the main sources for power generation in Ukraine.
Enjoy your own little blackouts.

Also please tell me why they waited a year and a half after Crimea rejoined Russia to start blocking transport trucks into Crimea from Ukraine? Cause in the year and a half most Crimean retail stores built ties with distributors in mainland Russia and that bloackade just killed off whatever remaining business ties that Russian Crimea and Ukraine had left.

These guys seem an awful lot like the Kremlin's agents, don't they   ?

Oh look, http://www.newsweek.com/tatar-activi...d-their-blockade-crimea-sea-400018 , Now these guys are threatening a "Sea blockade of Crimea"!   
Now this I would like to see!

These activists/terrorists will for once be treated as terrorists if they try anything close to what they are threatening. Or do they think Russia will play around with them like Ukraine? 
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
Scipio
Posts: 881
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:38 am

RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:27 am

Quoting tu204 (Reply 31):
Just look, today the first 200MW line is coming online

Only a bit more than 21 months after the Russian invasion of Crimea. Congratulations!

This will only bring limited relief, though. For starters, 200 MW is far less than what is needed. In addition, Crimea's electricity grid does not have the infrastructure to supply the whole peninsula out of Kerch. All the high-capacity powerlines run north-south, not east-west ...

Despite Putin's little PR action today, it will take a lot more time and tons more money to make Crimea independent of Ukrainian electricity.

Here is an analysis from the Ukrainian side:

http://euromaidanpress.com/2015/11/2...acts-to-make-your-own-conclusions/

The Ukrainians should know a thing or two about Crimea's electricity infrastructure. After all, they built it and are the legitimate owners of it...

Quoting tu204 (Reply 15):
Do you realize that Ukraine is fined $166,000/day for failing to provide the agreed upon electricity to Crimea?

The fines are not applicable when such failure is the result of damage to the power lines. So, irrelevant for the current situation.

In any case, please tell me, which court are Crimea's illegal occupiers going to turn to in order to force Ukrenergo to pay damages and/or fines?

Quoting tu204 (Reply 31):
Forgot to mention, for this little stunt with not being able to re-establish the electricity supply to Crimea not only did Ukraine lose millions in lost revenue, but Russia, Lughansk and Donetsk stopped shipping coal to Ukraine. Coal happens to be one of the main sources for power generation in Ukraine.
Enjoy your own little blackouts.

South African coal is on the way and due to arrive in Ukraine in the next few days. If there will be any blackouts in Ukraine, they will probably be short-lived and not much out of the ordinary. Nothing like the persistent and economically very costly blackouts in Crimea...
 
Acheron
Posts: 1851
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:14 am

RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Thu Dec 03, 2015 1:54 am

An in other news that Scipio won't probably post, apparently the Right Sector thugs forced the resignation of the Judges investigating the fire of the Odessa Trade Union building, started by Right Sector sympathizers and which killed 42 people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XciUGXfzI44
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 10790
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Thu Dec 03, 2015 8:38 am

Quoting Scipio (Reply 32):
Only a bit more than 21 months after the Russian invasion of Crimea. Congratulations!

I don't think you have any idea who longs it takes to plan, design and build infrastructure like this, 21 months is quick.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 32):
The Ukrainians should know a thing or two about Crimea's electricity infrastructure. After all, they built it and are the legitimate owners of it...

They didn't build it the Soviet Union built it.
 
tu204
Posts: 1490
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2006 12:36 am

RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:42 am

Quoting Scipio (Reply 32):
Only a bit more than 21 months after the Russian invasion of Crimea. Congratulations!

The infrastructural development since Crimea rejoined Russia in the last 21 months is much more than Ukraine has done when Crimea was theirs for 20+ years.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 32):
This will only bring limited relief, though. For starters, 200 MW is far less than what is needed..

200MW is the first line. Another 200MW line will be up before December 2015 and 400MW more before May 2016.
So in half a year Crimea will have 800MW from mainland Russia plus their own generating capacity of 200MW+.
So there is no more need for Ukrainian electricity, you guys screwed yourselves here. There was an export market with all the infrastructure for you, all you have to do is generate and sell. Instead you guys let idiot terrorists screw you.
No wonder Crimeans want nothing more to do with Ukraine. And now more than ever.
If there was the slightest chance that Crimeans would want to go back to Ukraine, it is gone now.
Congratulations.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 32):
In addition, Crimea's electricity grid does not have the infrastructure to supply the whole peninsula out of Kerch. All the high-capacity powerlines run north-south, not east-west ...

You are right. And Russia had to build that entire infrastructure.
Here's a clue. The actual undersea cable is only 9km long. But there was over 140km of power lines plus numerous structures built. Thats the infrastructure you are talking about.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 32):
The Ukrainians should know a thing or two about Crimea's electricity infrastructure. After all, they built it and are the legitimate owners of it...

Judging from what a mess they made of it in the 23 years they had their hands on Crimean infrastructure, they don't know what color their eyes are.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 32):
The fines are not applicable when such failure is the result of damage to the power lines. So, irrelevant for the current situation.

You are right that Russia will not persue this is court. We just cut off coal supplies to Ukraine and you guys can figure it out yourselves.
As I said earlier, the less ties Russia has with Ukraine, the better.
The sooner Ukraine will collapse as a state or have another Maydan, or whatever. I don't care.
Just send your refugees from all of your "experiments" West and not East and do whatever you guys want with your failed state.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 32):
South African coal is on the way and due to arrive in Ukraine in the next few days.

Great example. Buy half the coal you need from RSA for 1.5 time the price your own "country" (Lughansk and Donetsk) won't sell you.
Try Australia next time, I hear they also have coal they want to sell, and Australia is pretty much the other side of the world from Ukraine. It would make more sense to buy from there...

Who needs comedy when you have Ukranian news to watch? 
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
Scipio
Posts: 881
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:38 am

RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Thu Dec 03, 2015 9:48 pm

Airport Donetsk -- a new documentary about the battle for Donetsk Airport.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GjAhdcotqxw
 
Acheron
Posts: 1851
Joined: Mon Sep 05, 2005 1:14 am

RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Thu Dec 03, 2015 10:56 pm

People fighting over eggs in a supermarket in hardship striken Kiev.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDZFu7zQW8Q
 
User avatar
Aeroflot777
Posts: 3085
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:19 pm

RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Thu Dec 03, 2015 11:38 pm

Quoting Acheron (Reply 37):
People fighting over eggs in a supermarket in hardship striken Kiev.

Yup... I was at another Ashan store at Ocean Plaza earlier today and there was a similar problem (not quite this drastic) over some other items.

I was exchanging my internet router this evening at a UkrTelecom office, there were about 8 women working there and one young man running around filing papers. An elderly man waiting in line behind me tried to lighten up the dreary mood in the office and complimented the women on their fine, professional looks and work ethic. This sparked a rather interesting conversation between the employees and the customers, the women were saying that all the men who worked in the office were forced to quit in search of other jobs because they could no longer support their families on the salaries offered. And to think this is Ukraine's monopolist telecommunications company! So many woes and hardships faced by people here right now, it's simply devastating.

There is no end in sight and people are really starting to feel the pain more and more as their wages become worthless versus the price hikes for necessities of life.

But let's keep believing what Western media wants us too....
 
Scipio
Posts: 881
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:38 am

RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sat Dec 05, 2015 12:48 am

Quoting Acheron (Reply 33):
An in other news that Scipio won't probably post, apparently the Right Sector thugs forced the resignation of the Judges investigating the fire of the Odessa Trade Union building, started by Right Sector sympathizers and which killed 42 people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XciUGXfzI44

Nice try at Soviet/Russian propaganda: lies, half-lies, half-truths, and Youtube films without appropriate explanation or context.

The Right Sector played, if any, only a marginal role in the May 2 riots in Odessa. The riots were started by pro-Russian activists (agents?) and the first few people who were killed were participants in a peaceful pro-Ukrainian rally ahead of a soccer game.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2014_Odessa_clashes


The scene in the Youtube film you posted is a protest against the court's decision to release some of the pro-Russian instigators of these deadly clashes.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 37):
People fighting over eggs in a supermarket in hardship striken Kiev.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oDZFu7zQW8Q

I don't see much actual fighting in this film.

The scene is from a Black Friday sale of eggs. Aushan offered a kilo of eggs (10 eggs) for UAH 9.99 (less than half a dollar). Ukrainians have adopted the Black Friday concept in the last few years...

For comparison, there are plenty of US Black Friday fight scenes available on the internet. Those hardship stricken Americans...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBkGla-sYis

Quoting Acheron (Reply 26):
Scipio's Ukranian wonderboys worshiping ISIS.

This is not worthy of a reaction. Just quoting it for emphasis.
 
User avatar
Aeroflot777
Posts: 3085
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:19 pm

RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sat Dec 05, 2015 12:42 pm

Quoting Scipio (Reply 39):
I don't see much actual fighting in this film.

The scene is from a Black Friday sale of eggs. Aushan offered a kilo of eggs (10 eggs) for UAH 9.99 (less than half a dollar). Ukrainians have adopted the Black Friday concept in the last few years...

Black Friday happens once a year in the US and causes idiotic lines and fights in stores amongst cattle that is trying to save money on tech and clothes rather than spending time with their families on a holiday. To each his own. BUT, in Ukraine, these people aren't grabbing something on sale, but rather fighting for BASICS to get them at a price they can afford. Major difference.

A lot of stores here start their weekly sales every Thursday. These people aren't fighting for eggs just one time, these are people than can no longer afford to live well on their pensions.

Come pay me a visit here and I'll show you how far from the truth you are. I even have a spare bedroom for you to stay in, we'll spend some days in the neighborhood just watching how folks are trying to survive at the current moment.
 
Scipio
Posts: 881
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:38 am

RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sun Dec 06, 2015 10:48 pm

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 40):
These people aren't fighting for eggs just one time, these are people than can no longer afford to live well on their pensions.

It was just one time. That is why it got quite a bit of coverage in the Ukrainian media. This was just an incident resulting from a "Black Friday" sale of eggs at highly discounted prices by Ashan.

You cannot provide any evidence of such incidents happening on a regular basis in Kyiv.

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 40):
Come pay me a visit here and I'll show you how far from the truth you are. I even have a spare bedroom for you to stay in, we'll spend some days in the neighborhood just watching how folks are trying to survive at the current moment.

Thank you for the invitation, but I have a place to stay in Kyiv.
 
User avatar
Aeroflot777
Posts: 3085
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:19 pm

RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:11 am

Quoting Scipio (Reply 41):
You cannot provide any evidence of such incidents happening on a regular basis in Kyiv.

I'm talking about people hunting for bargains and sales daily just to make it, all of which happens all around. All you need to do is walk into a store and watch people's behavior as they look at price tags (and listen in on them being shocked at said prices). Not speaking of multiple instances of eggs at super low prices, irrelevant and doesn't add anything to the conversation.

The fact that you posted the equivalency of UAH into USD is entirely meaningless. For you, "less than half a dollar" is not much, and might sound like an insane price for 10 eggs. But for citizens during a crisis, especially for the elderly, this is a serious, life-imposing problem. These people have lived and survived for decades and are now thrown under the bus by their own country which faces devaluation of currency, salary slashes and the likes.

http://www.raschet-pensii.in.ua/na-pensiyu-v-ukraine-v-2015-godu/

A interesting peak into what people get as pensions. I couldn't believe what I was reading, so spent some time asking some family friends and my own family here what they get. 4 retired women we asked currently receive less than 1100 UAH a month (roughly 47 USD). My retired aunt gets 1,400 UAH due to her longer working years. Further, a retired government employee who worked almost all her life in a gov't job is now getting 2,200 UAH, which is 92 USD a month.

All of a sudden those cheap eggs don't sound so cheap anymore.

Posted this before, and will post again to just to get an understanding of prices in relation to said income:

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living...sult.jsp?country=Ukraine&city=Kiev
 
Scipio
Posts: 881
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:38 am

RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Mon Dec 07, 2015 1:37 am

A new promotional film about Ukraine as a tourist destination:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZMMJo7jOTQ

Quoting Aeroflot777 (Reply 42):
All of a sudden those cheap eggs don't sound so cheap anymore.

What I object to is representing this "egg fight" video as representative of daily life in Kyiv. It is not. And you should know, if you really spend as much time in Kyiv as you claim.

However, there is no denying that life is tough for many Ukrainians.

What I don't understand is what you propose as solutions.

Sell out to the Russians? Do you have any idea how much of the USD 3 billion that Putin lent to Yanukovych in December 2013 actually ended up improving the lives of ordinary Ukrainians?

My estimate is USD 0.0 ...

Yanukovych and his gang just stole the money, and now Putin insists that the impoverished Ukrainians pay back this USD 3 billion, plus interest.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 10790
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Mon Dec 07, 2015 7:41 am

Quoting Scipio (Reply 41):
You cannot provide any evidence of such incidents happening on a regular basis in Kyiv.

I think you forget that unlike you Aeroflot actually lives in Kiev, so whatever he has to say is far more likely to be true than whatever you pull from the sky.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 43):
Yanukovych and his gang just stole the money, and now Putin insists that the impoverished Ukrainians pay back this USD 3 billion, plus interest.

Loans should be repaid.
 
Scipio
Posts: 881
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:38 am

RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Tue Dec 08, 2015 12:12 am

Ukraine is changing...

A promotional film recently released by Ukraine's Ministry of Economic Development and Trade.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7RVIsZEUiI

And another promotional film for Ukraine's agricultural sector, produced by Ukraine's Ministry of Agriculture.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4sy-NG69Bwo
 
solarflyer22
Posts: 1510
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 7:07 pm

RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Tue Dec 08, 2015 2:18 am

Pardon my stupid question but with Russia occupied partly in Syria, is now not the perfect time for a counter attack on Eastern Ukraine to reunite the nation and kick the Russians out? I mean if this was Mericuh, we'd get every able bodied male, get a gun and molotov cocktail and go get em. Urban warfare often negates the technological edge the Russians have.

Is the problem the government is broke? IT seems like Ukraine cant even import weapons legally. Is there no air force left?
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 10790
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Tue Dec 08, 2015 8:35 am

Quoting Scipio (Reply 45):
Ukraine is changing...

A couple of youtube videos means nothing, even you can see that.

Quoting solarflyer22 (Reply 46):
Pardon my stupid question but with Russia occupied partly in Syria, is now not the perfect time for a counter attack on Eastern Ukraine to reunite the nation and kick the Russians out?

Russia has about 40 combat aircraft in Syria and a couple of thousand men, that leaves over 1000 combat aircraft in Russia and the better part of 1 million of so men, I don't think the odds are pretty good on Ukraine winning any kind of conflict with Russia. If Ukraine went on the offensive and attacked I doubt they would get much support from the West either.
 
Redd
Posts: 499
Joined: Mon Jan 07, 2013 3:40 am

RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Tue Dec 08, 2015 7:36 pm

Quoting kiwirob (Reply 24):
he can either man up and do the right thing

Still can't believe some people support conscription. If the country want's troops then they should damn well be prepared to pay people to be part of a professional military. Not potentially ruin some young persons life that's just barely starting out because some politicians thought it would be a grand idea to bring other people's (and not their own) kids into the military.

Plus it's Lithuania, they'd need half the country to join the military to be a deterrent to Russia.
 
Kiwirob
Posts: 10790
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2005 2:16 pm

RE: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Tue Dec 08, 2015 8:08 pm

Quoting Redd (Reply 48):
Not potentially ruin some young persons life that's just barely starting out because some politicians thought it would be a grand idea to bring other people's (and not their own) kids into the military.

I can't see how it ruins anyone's life, both my brother in laws and all of my Norwegian friends who were conscripted all enjoyed it. In Norway no politicians child would be exempted, it's not that kind of country. I hope it's still around when my children come of age, in in Norway females are now eligible for service if they choose to.

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