Quoting Scipio (Reply 149): That is neither propaganda nor news: Mastercard cards have worked in Crimea since last spring:

Wait, but I thought that Crimea was cut off from electricity, everyone runs around with wads of cash cause they can't use plastic and that people are starving because store shelves are empty? Isn't that what you were implying earlier?

Quoting Scipio (Reply 149): However, Sberbank is not operating in Crimea, and neither is any of the other self-respecting Russian banks.

Ummm, well not really.

Sberbank just opened a subsidiary that is pretty much "Sberbank" but with a different name. No difference at all to consumers.

Same goes for the mobile phone networks, Megafon ain't there, but WIN mobile is, and surprisingly I didn't get roaming charges on this "WIN Mobile" while I was there. Weird eh? Who do you think owns this company?  

Same goes for the gas stations too. Same colours of the actuall gas station as we see here on the mainland, but some weird name.

Strange that you haven't written anything in my little eye-opening trip report.
My Trip To Crimea (by tu204 Jan 25 2016 in Non Aviation)

[Edited 2016-01-31 08:30:10]

Quoting tu204 (Reply 150): Wait, but I thought that Crimea was cut off from electricity, everyone runs around with wads of cash cause they can't use plastic and that people are starving because store shelves are empty? Isn't that what you were implying earlier?

No. Where and when?

Quoting tu204 (Reply 150): Sberbank just opened a subsidiary that is pretty much "Sberbank" but with a different name.

What name?

Quoting tu204 (Reply 150): Strange that you haven't written anything in my little eye-opening trip report.

I didn't find it very eye-opening, and was going to have you have that little thread for yourself. But if you insist...

Quoting Scipio (Reply 151): Quoting tu204 (Reply 150): Sberbank just opened a subsidiary that is pretty much "Sberbank" but with a different name. What name?

My bad, Russian National Commercial Bank. State owned by Росимущество. Sberbank-Ukraine transferred all their branches, ATM's and POS machines to this new bank. Convenient for the clients.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 151): No. Where and when?

For starters:

Quoting Scipio (Reply 32): This will only bring limited relief, though. For starters, 200 MW is far less than what is needed. In addition, Crimea's electricity grid does not have the infrastructure to supply the whole peninsula out of Kerch. All the high-capacity powerlines run north-south, not east-west ...

Quoting Scipio (Reply 151): I didn't find it very eye-opening, and was going to have you have that little thread for yourself. But if you insist...

Be my guest. I am always up for a good discussion. Especially now that I have been there personally, talked to real people, seen the situation with my own eyes and am not pulling opinions out of my arse.

[Edited 2016-01-31 12:14:09]

Quoting tu204 (Reply 152): For starters:

Spot the differences:

Quoting Scipio (Reply 32): This will only bring limited relief, though. For starters, 200 MW is far less than what is needed. In addition, Crimea's electricity grid does not have the infrastructure to supply the whole peninsula out of Kerch. All the high-capacity powerlines run north-south, not east-west ...

Versus:

Quoting tu204 (Reply 150): Wait, but I thought that Crimea was cut off from electricity, everyone runs around with wads of cash cause they can't use plastic and that people are starving because store shelves are empty? Isn't that what you were implying earlier?

And for this you had to go two months back in this thread to quote me ...

Quoting tu204 (Reply 152): My bad, Russian National Commercial Bank. State owned by Росимущество.

Russian National Commercial Bank is not a subsidiary of Sberbank and never was. Once again, you were taking liberties with the facts, or inventing them ...

More about how RNCB became Crimea's largest bank (and only very recently state-owned) on the basis of assets and infrastructure that Ukrainian banks were forced to abandon or sell cheaply, in the process probably significantly enriching the gangsters that currently run Crimea:

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/article.php?id=497944

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/article.php?id=515262

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/n...onalises-major-bank-in-Crimea.html

Economic relations between Russia and Ukraine continue their downward spiral.

Over the past week, Ukrainian activists have started a blockade of Russian trucks in western Ukraine.

http://uatoday.tv/news/activists-blo...western-ukraine-border-589811.html
http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/a...nes-zakarpattia-region/559317.html


In response, the Russian government today banned Ukrainian trucks from driving within Russia.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/ukrainia...ucks-banned-from-russia-1455470546
http://www.unian.info/economics/1264...-movement-of-ukrainian-trucks.html

The Ukrainian government may adopt a reciprocal ban.

http://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-econ...with-russia-or-trade-with-her.html


Separately, Russia is involved in a spat with Poland that has resulted in mutual bans on each other's trucks:

http://www.intellinews.com/polish-an...ort-spat-remains-deadlocked-89746/


And Russian trucks were also recently banned from Turkey:

http://abcnews.go.com/International/...-russian-long-haul-trucks-36637515
http://www.todayszaman.com/business_...ks-amid-sour-relations_411176.html


This means that, before the activist blockade, Ukraine's roads were the last available overland routes into western, central and southern Europe for Russian trucks...

Two years ago, on February 20, 2014, at least 50 people died in the struggle to rid Ukraine of a kleptocratic dictator and the corrupt systems that brought and kept him in power.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sINSTpBmCLo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moOAR...2qwxZx32NcF2VSx4CbJphZ-26ve4SVgnxw

The struggle continues. The Heavenly Hundred will win.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 155): Two years ago, on February 20, 2014, at least 50 people died in the struggle to rid Ukraine of a kleptocratic dictator and the corrupt systems that brought and kept him in power. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sINSTpBmCLo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=moOAR...2qwxZx32NcF2VSx4CbJphZ-26ve4SVgnxw The struggle continues. The Heavenly Hundred will win.

And replaced kleptocrats with even worse kleptocrats, destroyed what was left of the country and directly and indirectly caused the deaths of several thousand. Great victory for the heavenly hundred. If they would have known what a mess they helped cause, would they have still participated in this coup?

Quoting tu204 (Reply 156): And replaced kleptocrats with even worse kleptocrats, destroyed what was left of the country and directly and indirectly caused the deaths of several thousand. Great victory for the heavenly hundred. If they would have known what a mess they helped cause, would they have still participated in this coup?

What would you know? By your own admission, you have not been in Ukraine since 2006.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 156): And replaced kleptocrats with even worse kleptocrats, destroyed what was left of the country and directly and indirectly caused the deaths of several thousand. Great victory for the heavenly hundred. If they would have known what a mess they helped cause, would they have still participated in this coup?

Here is everything you, as a Russian, need to know about Ukraine:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj1MTTArzPI

Quoting Scipio (Reply 158): Here is everything you, as a Russian, need to know about Ukraine: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jj1MT...ArzPI

I like that song   It shows just how pathetic and childish this coup and it's participants were.
Here's a better version with a better video https://www.youtu.be/hCC5h4PPGgU

Quoting Scipio (Reply 157): What would you know? By your own admission, you have not been in Ukraine since 2006.

I lke how you just admitted that Crimea is not Ukraine  

But yes, I haven't been to Ukraine in 10 years, but I do read news articles, Russian, western and so far I haven't found anything with significant results. I don't consider removing someone from power to be an achievment if it does not bring any positive changes to the lives of everyday citizens.

Regarding the thousands dead, I don't need to go there to know that. Even Ukraine isn't doubting the fact that 5000+ have died as a result of the civil war.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 159): I lke how you just admitted that Crimea is not Ukraine

You should have paid attention to the "By your own admission" disclaimer.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 156): And replaced kleptocrats with even worse kleptocrats

I do not know a single Ukrainian who would agree with that statement. But, of course, you, who has not been in free Ukraine for ten years, know better than the Ukrainians themselves.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 159): Regarding the thousands dead,

For those thousands of dead, one single person is responsible: your lunatic president.

Everything else is propaganda and (childish) fantasy.

Bellingcat has published a new report on MH17, "MH17: Potential Suspects and Witnesses from the 53rd Anti-Aircraft Missile Brigade".

The report presents further information on the Russian military units and staff (anonymized in the published version of the report) that provided and possibly [in my view, likely] operated the Buk that shot down MH17. The non-public version of the report, with the identities of the Russian military staff involved, has been delivered to the Dutch-led Joint Investigation Team (JIT).

http://www.bellingcat.com/news/uk-an...-europe/2016/02/23/53rd-report-en/
http://www.bellingcat.com/wp-content...ads/2016/02/53rd-report-public.pdf

How "Novorossiya" died. Three days with the Cyborgs -- the defenders of Donetsk Airport.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiZ7FjQxGGI

The free world owes a lot to the Cyborgs.

May the fallen Cyborgs rest in peace and forever be remembered as having given their lives to protect the free world from Putin's aggression and dictatorship.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 162):

The free world owes something to the guys that got it handed to them by locals commanded by Motorolla and Givi (a local high rise window cleaner)?   

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Donetsk_Airport

Quoting tu204 (Reply 163): The free world owes something to the guys that got it handed to them by locals commanded by Motorolla and Givi (a local high rise window cleaner)?

Once again, you are unable to get your facts right. "Motorola" is not a local, but a Russian native called Arseny Pavlov. A well known sadist and war criminal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arseny_Pavlov

It is up to you to explain what this marginal figure was doing in Donbass fighting against Ukrainian troops defending their homeland.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 164): Once again, you are unable to get your facts right. "Motorola" is not a local, but a Russian native called Arseny Pavlov. A well known sadist and war criminal.

Read my quote again, I wrote "...Motorolla and Givi (a local high rise window cleaner)..."
Because I wrote in (brackets) after "Givi", it would make sense that what is written in said brackets refers to him. Right?

"Givi":
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Tolstykh

Born in Ilovaisk, another place that Ukrainian forces got their arses handed to them...

Quoting tu204 (Reply 165): Read my quote again, I wrote "...Motorolla and Givi (a local high rise window cleaner)..." Because I wrote in (brackets) after "Givi", it would make sense that what is written in said brackets refers to him. Right? "Givi": https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Tolstykh

What you wrote was meant to imply that the war in Donbass is a civil war. You were aiming to mislead, by naming one single individual among the "separatists" who is a local -- Givi, another known war criminal.

He is actually the exception, in terms of being a local.

Here is Givi "at work":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vv1PFzKVPqY

And here, on a.net, we have tu204 happily promoting war criminals and war crimes, laughing at the victims of war crimes, and putting all the blame on Ukraine and the west...

Freedom of speech perhaps being taken a notch too far?

[Edited 2016-03-07 17:02:53]

[Edited 2016-03-07 17:18:34]

Quoting Scipio (Reply 166): And here, on a.net, we have tu204 happily promoting war criminals and war crimes, laughing at the victims of war crimes, and putting all the blame on Ukraine and the west... Freedom of speech perhaps being taken a notch too far?

That's rich, coming from the guy that glorifies neo-nazis...

Quoting Acheron (Reply 167): That's rich, coming from the guy that glorifies neo-nazis...

Please quote me, where I was glorifying neo-nazis.

Of course, your problem is that you swallowed or are part of the Russian propaganda which claims that pretty much every Ukrainian is a neo-nazi...

Yes, I am for a free Ukraine. Proudly and passionately.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 168): Of course, your problem is that you swallowed or are part of the Russian propaganda which claims that pretty much every Ukrainian is a neo-nazi...

Don't need propaganda for that. It seems this sorry excuse for a government in Ukraine right now are getting sloppy or just don't care.
Including photos or Ukrainian soliders with swastika tatoos for the "Ukraine week" in the European Parliament.
Who needs propaganda when you don't even bother hiding the fact that there are quite a few nazi's running around in Ukraine.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=c67_1456753222

Quoting Scipio (Reply 166): What you wrote was meant to imply that the war in Donbass is a civil war.

Because it is a civil war...
One that Ukraine started when they overthrew the legitimate President of the country, started dictating their terms on how the whole country is going to live, and when the East said they had enough and want to have no part in this, sent it forces. When they resisted, you started bombing and shelling them.

Thankfully enough, volunteers from all over the world, and from Russia as well stood up for them and helped them give an arse kicking to the Ukrainian Armed Forces. Ukraine was assisted by some in the west, so I see nothing wrong with this.


And remind me again, what was the whole point of all of this and what did those clowns during Maydan imply? Something about the E.U.?
Looks to me like the E.U. is getting pretty sick of the country that turned into a circus.

Here's something else that Ukrainians should understand: Ukraine isn't going to join the EU in the next 20 years. Whether or not the E.U. will be around in that long is a different question.
http://www.unian.info/politics/12823...r-another-20-25-years-juncker.html

Quoting tu204 (Reply 169): Because it is a civil war...

Only in your distorted mind, and in the invented world of the Russian propaganda machine.

Tell me, where are all the crowds, demonstrating spontaneously in favor of the Russian occupation of Crimea and Donbass, over the past year and a half?

Good luck finding any evidence of any such spontaneous crowds!

[Edited 2016-03-09 16:51:12]

And how right she was, at the time of Maydan. Predicting that the word "Berkut" would soon be equivalent to the word criminal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HeKS3ehkb_E

That is indeed the reality in today's Ukraine. Pretty much all Berkut who were involved in oppressing Maydan are now fugitive criminals.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 169): Because it is a civil war...

FYI, I have a good friend and colleague from Luhansk. She, along with almost all her former classmates, fled Luhansk because of the Russian invasion. The one single pro-Russian classmate in her class stayed behind, got injured in the fighting, and lost her lower limbs.

These refugees from Luhansk are now among the most pro-reform and anti-Russian people in Ukraine.

They will win!

[Edited 2016-03-09 18:11:28]

[Edited 2016-03-09 18:14:35]

Quoting Scipio (Reply 172):

People getting attacked by neo-nazis in Kiev. Your kind of freedom of speech and democracy, obviously

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SUjyf4pMyw

Quoting Acheron (Reply 173): People getting attacked by neo-nazis in Kiev. Your kind of freedom of speech and democracy, obviously

Now, here is Russian propaganda at work. Let's analyze this.

We have an obscure incident, involving about 15 masked men. Nobody knows who they are. They could be Russian agents or hired Titushky, staging an incident just for Russian television cameras, for all we know. The Russian television cameras are, curiously, very well pre-positioned to cover this "unexpected" event.

As far as I can tell, nobody except the traditional Russian propaganda channels like RT has covered this strange incident.

On the basis of such extremely questionable "evidence", Russia's propaganda machine tries to convince the world that a nation of 45 million mostly peace-loving people is actually a nation of fascists ruled by a junta.

Really? Is this the best evidence they can come up with?

[Edited 2016-03-22 18:01:03]

Meanwhile, returning to the Stalin-era tradition of mock trials, Acheron's "democratic" Russia convicted Ukrainian pilot Nadiya Savchenko to 22 years in the Gulag.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35873683

Quoting Scipio (Reply 175): Meanwhile, returning to the Stalin-era tradition of mock trials, Acheron's "democratic" Russia convicted Ukrainian pilot Nadiya Savchenko to 22 years in the Gulag.

I'm a bit confused by this one. I know she somehow passed the psychiatric examination that found her fit to stand trial. Now I am no psychiatrist, but I don't think it takes one to see from her behaviour and facial expressions that that lady is clearly nuts and belongs locked up in psychiatric facility, not prison.

A leak of about 26TB from a Tax Heaven management company in Panama has revealed that a few leaders of the world and their relatives have been doing some money laundry and shady business.

Turns out Poroshenko himself is in the list. Remember when the Euromaidan excuse was that to deal with corruption and oligarchs?.

Quoting Acheron (Reply 177): Turns out Poroshenko himself is in the list. Remember when the Euromaidan excuse was that to deal with corruption and oligarchs?.

They don't know what their excuse was any more. Getting closer to Europe, getting rid of Yanukovitch, oligarhs, whatever.
What matters is that the collapse of their already sorry condition is blamed on Russia and the light at the end of the tunnel is the E.U. (Which is getting way more than it bargained for).

Quoting Acheron (Reply 177): A leak of about 26TB from a Tax Heaven management company in Panama has revealed that a few leaders of the world and their relatives have been doing some money laundry and shady business. Turns out Poroshenko himself is in the list. Remember when the Euromaidan excuse was that to deal with corruption and oligarchs?

Indeed. He has set up offshore structures to safeguard his assets, hide his continued ownership, or evade taxes, or all of these purposes.

Here is an in-depth discussion:

http://www.occrp.org/en/panamapapers/ukraine-poroshenko-offshore/

It certainly does not look pretty, and it will further damage Poroshenko's standing coming on the heels of the ugly troubles in the General Prosecutor's Office.

That being said, look who else is being implicated by the Panama papers: some very close friends of Mr. Putin...

http://www.theguardian.com/news/2016...nama-papers-money-hidden-offshore?

And unlike in the case of Poroshenko's structures, real money has been circulating through these Putin-related structures...

Quoting tu204 (Reply 178): They don't know what their excuse was any more. Getting closer to Europe, getting rid of Yanukovitch, oligarhs, whatever. What matters is that the collapse of their already sorry condition is blamed on Russia and the light at the end of the tunnel is the E.U. (Which is getting way more than it bargained for).

Of course, Ukrainians blame Russia for much of their problems. Russia invaded their country...

I don't know what it will take for you to ever get out of your state of denial. While you keep on jumping gleefully on every Ukrainian problem and denying even the most blatantly obvious Russian involvement in such problems, your Kremlin is stealing from you and your country is going down the drain.

Meanwhile, Bild has published a new investigation into how occupied Donbass is being run from Moscow:

http://www.bild.de/politik/ausland/u...adow-government-45102202.bild.html


Earlier this year, it published an investigation into the money flows from Moscow:

http://www.bild.de/politik/ausland/u...inances-donbass-44151166.bild.html

Quoting Scipio (Reply 179): It certainly does not look pretty, and it will further damage Poroshenko's standing coming on the heels of the ugly troubles in the General Prosecutor's Office. That being said, look who else is being implicated by the Panama papers: some very close friends of Mr. Putin... http://www.theguardian.com/news/2016...hore?

How cute!
When Cameron's daddy has an offshore account it's the Camerons' family matters.
When Poroshenko has an account, it's to help him sell Roshen.
When some Russian has an account, it's Putin!   

Quoting Scipio (Reply 179): Of course, Ukrainians blame Russia for much of their problems. Russia invaded their country...

Still think you are fighting Russia, eh?   
Go look at ISIS and those other "freedom fighters" in Syria. That was the Russian Aerospace Forces, about 2000 men and half a year.
They got invaded by Russia.
I'll also point out that ISIS/Al-Nusra has more men, is better armed, has higher morale and is probably better paid and better trained than the Ukranian Military.
Keep that in mind next time your President has a couple too many shots and starts talking about 10,000 Russian soldiers in Ukraine.

Maybe it's about time Russia actually invaded Ukraine and put it out of it's misery? How pathetic is it that you guys trade with a country you think you are at war with? How pathetic is it that you can't man up and cut diplomatic ties if you think you are at war with this country?

Has Ukraine really lost absolutely all self respect?

I guess so, look at the pathetic campaigning before the Referendum in the Netherlands. In over two years you still haven't got it through your heads that this agreement with the EU is pretty much nothing and will do nothing for the sorry state of your country. But still trying to bend over and kiss arse over it.
Just sad. An entire country lost all self respect before our eyes. And after jumping through hoops and kissing Dutch arse still gets rejected...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIGEx0BkL5g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlTiZ-0lSjY

[Edited 2016-04-07 04:32:33]

Looks like the Dutch don't want the Ukrainians at the party:

Netherlands rejects EU-Ukraine partnership deal

Quoting offloaded (Reply 182): Looks like the Dutch don't want the Ukrainians at the party:

Bound to happen. Europe already has plenty of crap going on with the refugee crisis and ISIS to be dealing with the money and social blackhole that is Ukraine.

And they are well aware there is not going to be any "Ukrainian miracle".

Quoting Acheron (Reply 183): And they are well aware there is not going to be any "Ukrainian miracle".

Not just that, but while the regime in Kiev manages to convince Ukranians that all of their problems are because of a mythical Russian invasion, people in the E.U. Don't seem to buy this story and realize the actual cause: incompetent, populist, corrupt politicians that have no clue what the hell they are doing.

Quoting tu204 (Reply 181): Go look at ISIS and those other "freedom fighters" in Syria. That was the Russian Aerospace Forces, about 2000 men and half a year.

There is nothing really sophisticated or heroic about bombing some lightly-armed irregulars (without air defense systems or air force) and defenseless civilians from the air...

Quoting tu204 (Reply 181): I'll also point out that ISIS/Al-Nusra has more men, is better armed, has higher morale and is probably better paid and better trained than the Ukranian Military.

Sure  

Let's just compare:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_activity_of_ISIL
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Nusra_Front

versus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armed_Forces_of_Ukraine


You seem to be getting further detached from reality with every post...

[Edited 2016-04-09 11:34:06]

[Edited 2016-04-09 11:52:16]

Quoting tu204 (Reply 184): Not just that, but while the regime in Kiev manages to convince Ukranians that all of their problems are because of a mythical Russian invasion, people in the E.U. Don't seem to buy this story and realize the actual cause: incompetent, populist, corrupt politicians that have no clue what the hell they are doing.

It is fair to say the Dutch people are well aware of the high degree of incompetence, populism and corruption. That having been said, I would not confuse the Dutch no-vote as a statement the (de-facto) Russian invasion is just a myth. We are well aware there are/were plenty of Russian troops "vacationing" with their heavy equipment (BUK missiles!) in Ukraine. #MH17

Another thing to point out about the referendum is that the results are a bit skewed in favor of the no-vote. The reason being that for the referendum to be valid at least 30% of the people had to vote. Several people that were in favor of the treaty did not vote, with the expectation that this way the referendum would not meet the 30% threshold. In the end they lost their gamble as the turnout was 32%.

Not that it matters much anyway, as the referendum is non-binding. All it means is that the government has to look into the treaty again. They can then still decide to pass it as it is. Whether they will do so remains to be seen of course, as it might well be political suicide.

Probably the government will go to Brussels and ask for some token changes: Brussels will roll their eyes a bit, change a word or two and allow the Dutch government to sign the treaty while still saving some face. My guess is that the modified treaty will contain an additional line or two stating categorically that this treaty is not intended to prepare Ukraine for EU membership (while keeping the door open for future treaties enabling EU membership) with perhaps some minor tweeks to the defence/military related co-operation.

Quoting Petertenthije (Reply 186):

Well it looks like the Dutch have 2 choices. 1) hold another referendum and this time vote to agree to what the EU is going to go ahead with anyway, or 2) don't hold another referendum because it really doesn't matter as the EU is going to go ahead anyway

Reuters: EU to propose visa-free travel for Ukraine despite Dutch vote

Quoting tu204 (Reply 184): people in the E.U. Don't seem to buy this story and realize the actual cause: incompetent, populist, corrupt politicians that have no clue what the hell they are doing.

The funny little guy form Belgium bought it.

Quoting Scipio (Reply 185): here is nothing really sophisticated or heroic about bombing some lightly-armed irregulars (without air defense systems or air force) and defenseless civilians from the air..

NATO is doing the same thing. I hope you have the same opinion about there bombing.

Ukraine's got talent...

This is footage of a recent edition of "Ukraine's got talent"

Inna Ishchenko sung "Plive Kacha".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yul8Ryd5iSE

Plive Kacha is a Lemko mourning song. It became Ukraine's national mourning song during Ukraine's Revolution of Dignity. It was played many times on Maydan to honor the victims of Yanukovych's repression.

Nowadays, it has a strong tendency to drive Ukrainians to tears ...

The Lemkos are one of Ukraine's many minorities. They are a Carpathian mountain people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemkos

Plive Kacha, as recorded during Ukraine's Revolution of Dignity:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfiLYBUFCLs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rhTfVVJcmYo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyYZnh51cfw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMgL0Q3GUBk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7NkAX-nx_Y



And at the one-year anniversary of Yanukovych's massacre:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdeuNQ9t9Xc

[Edited 2016-04-17 18:53:44]

Three-and-a-half years after Russia's illegal "annexation", all is not well in Crimea:

http://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/30/world ... raine.html

Scipio wrote:

Three-and-a-half years after Russia's illegal "annexation", all is not well in Crimea:

http://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/30/world ... raine.html

As compared to what?

If you want to compare Crimea now vs. Crimea in 2013 thats not really a valid comparison. Try comparing it to the mess that Ukraine became in the last 4 years and then you see the picture.

tu204 wrote:

Scipio wrote:

Three-and-a-half years after Russia's illegal "annexation", all is not well in Crimea:

http://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/30/world ... raine.html

As compared to what?

If you want to compare Crimea now vs. Crimea in 2013 thats not really a valid comparison. Try comparing it to the mess that Ukraine became in the last 4 years and then you see the picture.

The picture is very clear. Ukraine is moving forward, Russia and Crimea are moving backward. And when it comes to Russian-occupied Donbas, living standards there have completely collapsed.

tu204 wrote:

Scipio wrote:

Three-and-a-half years after Russia's illegal "annexation", all is not well in Crimea:

http://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/30/world ... raine.html

As compared to what?

If you want to compare Crimea now vs. Crimea in 2013 thats not really a valid comparison. Try comparing it to the mess that Ukraine became in the last 4 years and then you see the picture.

With many thanks to................

Many innocent victims, including the passengers and crew of MH-17, many lives ruined. For what?

Scipio wrote:

tu204 wrote:

Scipio wrote:

Three-and-a-half years after Russia's illegal "annexation", all is not well in Crimea:

http://www.nytimes.com/2017/09/30/world ... raine.html

As compared to what?

If you want to compare Crimea now vs. Crimea in 2013 thats not really a valid comparison. Try comparing it to the mess that Ukraine became in the last 4 years and then you see the picture.

The picture is very clear. Ukraine is moving forward, Russia and Crimea are moving backward. And when it comes to Russian-occupied Donbas, living standards there have completely collapsed.

So what has Ukraine moved forward towards? Yes, if becoming a dirt poor, lawless ganster state with no future was the goal, than I guess you guys have accomplished it. Everyone thought that the 90's in Russia were bad, you guys are proving that you can go even lower. Nice job))

tu204 wrote:

Scipio wrote:

tu204 wrote:

As compared to what?

If you want to compare Crimea now vs. Crimea in 2013 thats not really a valid comparison. Try comparing it to the mess that Ukraine became in the last 4 years and then you see the picture.

The picture is very clear. Ukraine is moving forward, Russia and Crimea are moving backward. And when it comes to Russian-occupied Donbas, living standards there have completely collapsed.

So what has Ukraine moved forward towards? Yes, if becoming a dirt poor, lawless ganster state with no future was the goal, than I guess you guys have accomplished it. Everyone thought that the 90's in Russia were bad, you guys are proving that you can go even lower. Nice job))

So what was the goal of Putin here?

Dutchy wrote:

So what was the goal of Putin here?

Wrong question.
What did the US with the EU in tow want to achieve there ...

WIederling wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

So what was the goal of Putin here?

Wrong question.
What did the US with the EU in tow want to achieve there ...

Right question, why did Putin annex the Krim, only to strengthen his own position within Russia? Don't follow Putin's line of questioning, don't fall into that trap.

Dutchy wrote:

WIederling wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

So what was the goal of Putin here?

Wrong question.
What did the US with the EU in tow want to achieve there ...

Right question, why did Putin annex the Krim, only to strengthen his own position within Russia? Don't follow Putin's line of questioning, don't fall into that trap.

Probably so. But the point about the EU abd US's meddling is just as valid if not more.

Why don't we look at the internal factors that led to Crimea's sessesion from Ukraine and becoming a part of Russia?
In particular the events where a bunch of dimwits overthrew the government, something that was not supported by Crimea.

Or if Putin also responsible for that as well?

tu204 wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

WIederling wrote:

Wrong question.
What did the US with the EU in tow want to achieve there ...

Right question, why did Putin annex the Krim, only to strengthen his own position within Russia? Don't follow Putin's line of questioning, don't fall into that trap.

Probably so. But the point about the EU abd US's meddling is just as valid if not more.

Why don't we look at the internal factors that led to Crimea's sessesion from Ukraine and becoming a part of Russia?
In particular the events where a bunch of dimwits overthrew the government, something that was not supported by Crimea.

Or if Putin also responsible for that as well?

Crimea's sessesion from Ukraine and becoming a part of Russia? --> Putin's party line --> Crimea's annexation by Putin's Russia you mean, or at least that is what most countries (read: all countries accept Russian Federation and Belarus) are saying. But following the Putin's party line: but wait, wait we have had a referendum, indeed they had well at least people voted, never mind that nobody saw it as a legitimate referendum and nobody took it seriously, but now you say, nobody, well there are countries who recognize it. Sure, countries like: Afghanistan, Kazachstan, Kyrgyzstan, North-Korea, Syria, Venezuela, Russia (yes Putin applauded it) and Belarus.
So here we have a fake referendum, which was falsified (even a Moscow based research firm said so, although they have taken that from their site) and put high pressure on it. Even Putin himself said the little green man were regular Russian soldiers. Perhaps you believe your supreme dictator?

So no, let's not look at the internal factors, let's look at the elephant in the room called Putin. But heck, what do I know, you listen to Kremlin-controlled media, so that must be fact, who would ever think that they would use the media to paint a pro-Kremlin picture.

Well at least the Dutch Football Team is boycotting Russia and will not attend the world cup next year (also falsified by bribery, so FIFA and Putin's Russia are made for each other).

Perhaps one day Russia will admit its role in shooting down the MH17, but Putin will be long gone by then.