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Dutchy
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:44 am

tu204 wrote:
In particular the events where a bunch of dimwits overthrew the government, something that was not supported by Crimea.

Or if Putin also responsible for that as well?


More or less that was Putin's fault as well. There was an EU-Ukraine treaty, but Putin blocked it and then the Ukraine citizens said, enough is enough, enough corruption, enough meddeling from Putin's Russia. So yes even there Russia was at fault.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:54 pm

Interesting thread!

My question: Despite Putin's obvious mischief in Ukraine, does the EU really need the mess that is Ukraine within its fold? Europe must avoid getting into US pressure and do a pros-vs-cons analysis here.

How deep in debt is the Ukrainian govt? What part of that debt is not related to the Civil War? How much of the debt is the result of reckless spending: like Football for example?

Time for honest introspection here! Can Europe afford to take on board a fiscally irresponsible member like Ukraine?
L' Esprit de Mai 68
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Thu Oct 12, 2017 10:53 pm

The EU will not take Ukraine on board, they will not be a member, never was intended to be. So I don't know what you are talking about.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:29 am

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
In particular the events where a bunch of dimwits overthrew the government, something that was not supported by Crimea.

Or if Putin also responsible for that as well?


More or less that was Putin's fault as well. There was an EU-Ukraine treaty, but Putin blocked it and then the Ukraine citizens said, enough is enough, enough corruption, enough meddeling from Putin's Russia. So yes even there Russia was at fault.


You are misinterpraiting the events that lead up to it.

Putin didn't block anything. Nor could he actually do that in any case.

The President of Ukraine, Yanukovitch postponed signing a rushed treaty with the EU that would have little to no benefit to Ukraine. This was perhaps the only well made decision he made in his time as president. Then this was used by his opposition to draw morons to the streets (sorry, thats the softest words I can think of to call people that bought into that shit without even briefly reading the treaty.

They were promised that signing this bullshit treaty with the EU would pretty much equal being a part of the EU, European standards of living, European wages and European pensions. All they got is European prices. One bunch of crooks worse than the last one used this to remove another bunch of croojs from power.

Where is Putin in all this is beyond me.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
tommy1808
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:02 am

tu204 wrote:
Why don't we look at the internal factors that led to Crimea's sessesion from Ukraine and becoming a part of Russia?


Since there was no sessesion the point is mute. Crimea was annexed and is simply occupied territory.

best regards
Thomas
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
:D
 
tu204
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:26 am

[url][/url]
tommy1808 wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Why don't we look at the internal factors that led to Crimea's sessesion from Ukraine and becoming a part of Russia?


Since there was no sessesion the point is mute. Crimea was annexed and is simply occupied territory.

best regards
Thomas


Facts say otherwise.

They held a refferendum to leave the Ukraine and to join the Russian Federation.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
tommy1808
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:53 am

tu204 wrote:
Facts say otherwise.

They held a refferendum to leave the Ukraine and to join the Russian Federation.


Alternative facts, aka lies may say so.. In case that is too complicated for you: referendum after invasion: Annexion, session after a referendum: no invasion needed.
Legally Crimea is occupied Ukrainian territory and will remain so until it stops being occupied and returns to just being Ukrainian territory.

Best regards
Thomas
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
:D
 
tu204
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:06 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Facts say otherwise.

They held a refferendum to leave the Ukraine and to join the Russian Federation.


Alternative facts, aka lies may say so.. In case that is too complicated for you: referendum after invasion: Annexion, session after a referendum: no invasion needed.
Legally Crimea is occupied Ukrainian territory and will remain so until it stops being occupied and returns to just being Ukrainian territory.

Best regards
Thomas


Well untill you or anyone else shows me any concrete facts of Crimeans being forced to/coerced/threatened to vote/not vote to seceed, your argument and those that have this point of view is null and void in my book.

And please elaborate, "Legally Crimea is occupied Ukranian...".
Legally according to whom?

According to the constitution of the Russian Federation, Crimea and the city of Sevastopol are subjects of the Russian Federation.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
tommy1808
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:33 pm

tu204 wrote:
Well untill you or anyone else shows me any concrete facts of Crimeans being forced to/coerced/threatened to vote/not vote to seceed, your argument and those that have this point of view is null and void in my book.


If the concept if intimdation is so foreign to ypu, then there is no helping you. Especially considering that pretty much everyone opposing Putin happens to end up dead or in jail.

And please elaborate, "Legally Crimea is occupied Ukranian...".
Legally according to whom?


All, but the agressor.

According to the constitution of the Russian Federation, Crimea and the city of Sevastopol are subjects of the Russian Federation.


I am sure Ukraine has a document saying it is part of Ukraine, and different from that toilet paper of Russian constitution, sInce it is apparently full of lies, that is the one that counts.
For all I care Sevastopol shall be mined and rendered unusable for the occupping force, all sanctions are to remain in place until put in is handed over for trial. He is just Saddam Hussein with nukes. People traveling to crimea with a Russian Visa should be arrested and put away for forgery, as they illegally entered with forged documents. Banks should be excluded from all international transactions if they hold as much as one share of a bank operating on Crimea and get cough doing a single transaction with crimea.

The world's reaction was much to slow and much to soft.

Best regrads
Thomas
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
:D
 
tu204
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sat Oct 14, 2017 6:32 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Well untill you or anyone else shows me any concrete facts of Crimeans being forced to/coerced/threatened to vote/not vote to seceed, your argument and those that have this point of view is null and void in my book.


If the concept if intimdation is so foreign to ypu, then there is no helping you. Especially considering that pretty much everyone opposing Putin happens to end up dead or in jail.

And please elaborate, "Legally Crimea is occupied Ukranian...".
Legally according to whom?


All, but the agressor.

According to the constitution of the Russian Federation, Crimea and the city of Sevastopol are subjects of the Russian Federation.


I am sure Ukraine has a document saying it is part of Ukraine, and different from that toilet paper of Russian constitution, sInce it is apparently full of lies, that is the one that counts.
For all I care Sevastopol shall be mined and rendered unusable for the occupping force, all sanctions are to remain in place until put in is handed over for trial. He is just Saddam Hussein with nukes. People traveling to crimea with a Russian Visa should be arrested and put away for forgery, as they illegally entered with forged documents. Banks should be excluded from all international transactions if they hold as much as one share of a bank operating on Crimea and get cough doing a single transaction with crimea.

The world's reaction was much to slow and much to soft.

Best regrads
Thomas


1) Again, proof please of any cases of intimidation. Or do you really believe that 5 million people were intimidated into casting their votes? Just by being their alongside Crimean militia? C'mon dude.

2) Well the "toilet paper" as you say of the UN charter kinda mentions the right to self-determination of people. The "toilet paper" of Ukraine obviosuly doesnt allow anyone to seceed without their approval. The "toilet paper" of Serbia doesn't either yet the lady that is your leader, according to your "toilet paper" said that Kosovo has a right to independence even though it goes against Serbia's "toilet paper". ;)

Here's a hint: nobody cares in Crimea what Ukraine's "toilet paper" says.

3) Hey, I love these sanctions. Keep em' comin'.

The more seperated we are from the West economically and politically, the better. Plus our farmers are having a wild time :D

4) Well the chances of seeing Putin on trial are about the same as seeing Bush, Obama and Trump (all of whom are guilty way more than Putin) on trial, so dont hold your breath ;) Same goes for all your well wishes to screw Crimeans morr than Ukraine screwed them in the past.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
tommy1808
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sat Oct 14, 2017 7:07 pm

tu204 wrote:
1) Again, proof please of any cases of intimidation. Or do you really believe that 5 million people were intimidated into casting their votes? Just by being their alongside Crimean militia? C'mon dude.


More than 100k people fled from Russian opression on Crimea, intimidation isn't even a question. Thugs with guns are by definition intimidating.

2) Well the "toilet paper" as you say of the UN charter kinda mentions the right to self-determination of people.


"Self" ... Not being invaded with the opressor holding the "determination", and somehow forgot to put "independence" on the ballot....
As if any sane person assums Russia would have left if the "vote" didn't go there way they set it up to be.

One can not fail to notice that more people fled crimea than supposedly voted not for joining Russia .... explains why the didn't need much intimidation, as the Russian Reich obviosuly brought a whole lot of filed in ballots with them....

[Quot]The "toilet paper" of Ukraine obviosuly doesnt allow anyone to seceed without their approval[/quote]

Which is pretty standard and doesn't violate any international laws or standards and is in no way comparable to trying and failing to legalise an Annexion.

The "toilet paper" of Serbia doesn't either yet the lady that is your leader, according to your "toilet paper" said that Kosovo has a right to independence even though it goes against Serbia's "toilet paper". ;)


Well, different from void document you call constitution in Russia, as it violates international laws, none of what you mention above is inconsistent. You may have, or more obviously you have not, noticed that Serbia wasn't bombed because they didn't want to let Kosovo go, but because they committed crimes against humanity while trying to stop them from leaving. Just like none of the sanctions against Russia is because Crimea became de facto part of Russia, but for taking it illegally.

Here's a hint: nobody cares in Crimea what Ukraine's "toilet paper" says.


Oh, they do..otherwise the continued oppression would not be needed.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/03/18/ukr ... ion-crimea

3) Hey, I love these sanctions. Keep em' comin'.

The more seperated we are from the West economically and politically, the better. Plus our farmers are having a wild time :D


I agree. North Korea is about the status Russia should have. If it wasn't for natural resources, Russia would have just as much internationally competitive production thank NK: pretty much zero.

4) Well the chances of seeing Putin on trial are about the same as seeing Bush, Obama and Trump (all of whom are guilty way more than Putin) on trial, so dont hold your breath ;)


Or Schröder. Maybe someone can arrange to have removed from his office by way of polonium posining.

Best regards
Thomas]
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
:D
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:06 pm

No point debating Tu204, he believes the crap that has come out of the Kremlin and he does believe in Putin's autocratic regime. The rest of the world has spoken, only Belarus and the Russian Federation accepts this annexation.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:07 pm

tu204 wrote:
[url][/url]
tommy1808 wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Why don't we look at the internal factors that led to Crimea's sessesion from Ukraine and becoming a part of Russia?


Since there was no sessesion the point is mute. Crimea was annexed and is simply occupied territory.

best regards
Thomas


Facts say otherwise.

They held a refferendum to leave the Ukraine and to join the Russian Federation.


Bullshit.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:07 am

tommy1808 wrote:
tu204 wrote:
1) Again, proof please of any cases of intimidation. Or do you really believe that 5 million people were intimidated into casting their votes? Just by being their alongside Crimean militia? C'mon dude.


More than 100k people fled from Russian opression on Crimea, intimidation isn't even a question. Thugs with guns are by definition intimidating.

2) Well the "toilet paper" as you say of the UN charter kinda mentions the right to self-determination of people.


"Self" ... Not being invaded with the opressor holding the "determination", and somehow forgot to put "independence" on the ballot....
As if any sane person assums Russia would have left if the "vote" didn't go there way they set it up to be.

One can not fail to notice that more people fled crimea than supposedly voted not for joining Russia .... explains why the didn't need much intimidation, as the Russian Reich obviosuly brought a whole lot of filed in ballots with them....

[Quot]The "toilet paper" of Ukraine obviosuly doesnt allow anyone to seceed without their approval


Which is pretty standard and doesn't violate any international laws or standards and is in no way comparable to trying and failing to legalise an Annexion.

The "toilet paper" of Serbia doesn't either yet the lady that is your leader, according to your "toilet paper" said that Kosovo has a right to independence even though it goes against Serbia's "toilet paper". ;)


Well, different from void document you call constitution in Russia, as it violates international laws, none of what you mention above is inconsistent. You may have, or more obviously you have not, noticed that Serbia wasn't bombed because they didn't want to let Kosovo go, but because they committed crimes against humanity while trying to stop them from leaving. Just like none of the sanctions against Russia is because Crimea became de facto part of Russia, but for taking it illegally.

Here's a hint: nobody cares in Crimea what Ukraine's "toilet paper" says.


Oh, they do..otherwise the continued oppression would not be needed.

https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/03/18/ukr ... ion-crimea

3) Hey, I love these sanctions. Keep em' comin'.

The more seperated we are from the West economically and politically, the better. Plus our farmers are having a wild time :D


I agree. North Korea is about the status Russia should have. If it wasn't for natural resources, Russia would have just as much internationally competitive production thank NK: pretty much zero.

4) Well the chances of seeing Putin on trial are about the same as seeing Bush, Obama and Trump (all of whom are guilty way more than Putin) on trial, so dont hold your breath ;)


Or Schröder. Maybe someone can arrange to have removed from his office by way of polonium posining.

Best regards
Thomas][/quote]

Well even if 100,000 people left Crimea (again, where are you getting your numbers from?) that is insignificant compared to the million that voted to leave Ukraine. Why should the majority of the population suffer because of the will of the minority or some Germans or Americans want them to remain a part of Ukraine that is in a downward spiral?
Also take note that even your bullshit western media does not deny the fact that the majority of Crimeans wanted to seceed to Russia.

As for getting Russia DPRK status with sanctions, well, as I said, I am all for completely cutting ties with the West. Not much good comes from relations with the West. Like I said again, these sanctions have been awesome for Russia in the long term, Russia's agricultural sanctions against you guys have boosted the agricultural sector to the point where we can feed ourselves, have become the largest exporter of grain in the World in just several years. Well and I take it our sanctions screwed your farmers nicely, being imposed right before harvest season :lol: Local production of pretty much everything increased significantly because now businesses got the message that the West cannot be trusted.

But NK status is impossible because a) half the EU countries are pretty pissed that they were forced to impose sanctions on Russia and b) nobody but the EU+US and a couple of vassals actually care about this matter.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
tu204
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:14 am

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
[url][/url]
tommy1808 wrote:

Since there was no sessesion the point is mute. Crimea was annexed and is simply occupied territory.

best regards
Thomas


Facts say otherwise.

They held a refferendum to leave the Ukraine and to join the Russian Federation.


Bullshit.


Pathetic.

Care to back up your statement or you got nothin'? :lol:
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:37 am

tu204 wrote:
Well even if 100,000 people left Crimea (again, where are you getting your numbers from?) that is insignificant compared to the million that voted to leave Ukraine. Why should the majority of the population suffer because of the will of the minority or some Germans or Americans want them to remain a part of Ukraine that is in a downward spiral?
Also take note that even your bullshit western media does not deny the fact that the majority of Crimeans wanted to seceed to Russia.

As for getting Russia DPRK status with sanctions, well, as I said, I am all for completely cutting ties with the West. Not much good comes from relations with the West. Like I said again, these sanctions have been awesome for Russia in the long term, Russia's agricultural sanctions against you guys have boosted the agricultural sector to the point where we can feed ourselves, have become the largest exporter of grain in the World in just several years. Well and I take it our sanctions screwed your farmers nicely, being imposed right before harvest season :lol: Local production of pretty much everything increased significantly because now businesses got the message that the West cannot be trusted.

But NK status is impossible because a) half the EU countries are pretty pissed that they were forced to impose sanctions on Russia and b) nobody but the EU+US and a couple of vassals actually care about this matter.


As long as you call upon this referendum to back up your claims, I cannot take you seriously in any of this.

What you basically are saying is that Putin screwed up all this time and he has no long term vision, it took the sanctions from the west to get your farmers to do something. Your frame of reference is: win - lose. The frame within the EU is win - win. But fine by me if this Russia doesn't want to have anything to do with the west, there is still the matter of the MH17, Putin's fault. But don't screw with other countries who do: Georgia, Ukraine ring a bell?

"because now businesses got the message that the West cannot be trusted." this perfectly illustrates how screwed up your worldview is. Putin can't be trusted, that's why there are sanctions, not the other way around. So please continue to believe in Putin, just do (or you are paid to write these screwed up messages, well heck at least you make some money from this, so kuddos to you).
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:41 am

tu204 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
[url][/url]

Facts say otherwise.

They held a refferendum to leave the Ukraine and to join the Russian Federation.


Bullshit.


Pathetic.

Care to back up your statement or you got nothin'? :lol:


A referendum is a democratic instrument and there was nothing democratic about this thing. No run-up, no discussion, no over-site, intimidations. So care to back-up your statement that this is a fair and free referendum which could have some legitimacy to your big claims.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:22 am

tu204 wrote:
Well even if 100,000 people left Crimea (again, where are you getting your numbers from?) that is insignificant compared to the million that voted to leave Ukraine.


less than 100.000 people didn´t vote for joining Russia, which is rock solid proof that the referendum was fake. The simple fact that the occupying force conveniently forgot to put "independence" on the ballot, which was highly favored in previous pulls, is rock solid proof that "self determination" wasn´t even in the cards, or that the referendum even could possibly represent any significant number of crimeans.

Like I said again, these sanctions have been awesome for Russia in the long term, Russia's agricultural sanctions against you guys have boosted the agricultural sector to the point where we can feed ourselves, have become the largest exporter of grain in the World in just several years. Well and I take it our sanctions screwed your farmers nicely, being imposed right before harvest season :lol: Local production of pretty much everything increased significantly because now businesses got the message that the West cannot be trusted.


Well, i am happy that Russia is happy to apply the Morgentau plan to itself. Russians even think like the people of North Korea as is evident from you, i wonder when Russian people will start referring to Putin as God...... and as far as export statistics go, Russians exports are overwhelmingly on bonce age technology level. Even the Soviet Union was technologically competitive, Russia falls behind a month or two every year that passes.

best regards
Thomas
NIKV69 wrote:
The race is over. Moore has over 50% of the vote with just about half the votes in. Jones can't overcome that. McConnell has 10am meeting tomorrow so they can get this guy removed. At least the seat stays Republican. That is the important thing.
:D
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:41 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Well, i am happy that Russia is happy to apply the Morgentau plan to itself. Russians even think like the people of North Korea as is evident from you, i wonder when Russian people will start referring to Putin as God...... and as far as export statistics go, Russians exports are overwhelmingly on bonce age technology level. Even the Soviet Union was technologically competitive, Russia falls behind a month or two every year that passes.

best regards
Thomas


don't hey refer to Putin as someone whom can't do harm? The biggest export by far is sunlight of million years ago: oil. Oil is on its way out anyway.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
WIederling
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:44 am

Dutchy wrote:
.. don't hey refer to Putin as someone whom can't do harm? The biggest export by far is sunlight of million years ago: oil. Oil is on its way out anyway.


US shale oil, fracking and such. cough, cough, cough.

Much higher environmental impact there.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:46 am

WIederling wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
.. don't hey refer to Putin as someone whom can't do harm? The biggest export by far is sunlight of million years ago: oil. Oil is on its way out anyway.


US shale oil, fracking and such. cough, cough, cough.

Much higher environmental impact there.


That's why we need to get away from fossil fuel's all together.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:47 am

WIederling wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
.. don't hey refer to Putin as someone whom can't do harm? The biggest export by far is sunlight of million years ago: oil. Oil is on its way out anyway.


US shale oil, fracking and such. cough, cough, cough.

Much higher environmental impact there.


That's why we need to get away from fossil fuel's all together. But that is quite off-topic here.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:54 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Well even if 100,000 people left Crimea (again, where are you getting your numbers from?) that is insignificant compared to the million that voted to leave Ukraine.


less than 100.000 people didn´t vote for joining Russia, which is rock solid proof that the referendum was fake. The simple fact that the occupying force conveniently forgot to put "independence" on the ballot, which was highly favored in previous pulls, is rock solid proof that "self determination" wasn´t even in the cards, or that the referendum even could possibly represent any significant number of crimeans.

Like I said again, these sanctions have been awesome for Russia in the long term, Russia's agricultural sanctions against you guys have boosted the agricultural sector to the point where we can feed ourselves, have become the largest exporter of grain in the World in just several years. Well and I take it our sanctions screwed your farmers nicely, being imposed right before harvest season :lol: Local production of pretty much everything increased significantly because now businesses got the message that the West cannot be trusted.


Well, i am happy that Russia is happy to apply the Morgentau plan to itself. Russians even think like the people of North Korea as is evident from you, i wonder when Russian people will start referring to Putin as God...... and as far as export statistics go, Russians exports are overwhelmingly on bonce age technology level. Even the Soviet Union was technologically competitive, Russia falls behind a month or two every year that passes.

best regards
Thomas


1) Having been to Crimea last year and knowing people from Crimea that live here on the mainland I really see nothing wrong with only 100k people voting to stay with Ukraine. You really don't understand just how much pretty much everyone on that peninsula wanted nothing to do with Ukraine. They had refferendums before on this question and the result was pretty much the same. Those by the way were disracded by Ukraine.
So I do kind of see your point with why they didn't put a third question for independence on the ballot, but I see absolutely nothing suspicious with either the turnout or the result.

2) Unfortunately it takes Russians a little kick in the ass to get moving. Incredible potential and resources (both human and natural) but also laziness and wanting to get a lot and not do much to get it. Similar to Ukrainians but not quite as bad ;) . So for the 20 years after the collapse of the USSR it was a matter of importing shit from Europe/China and re-selling it here. That was the deal. Government programs in the 2000's were only semi-effective in creating some internal production. But ruining relations with the best has done wonders, something no state programs could ever hope to accomplish. I am not talking about exports either. I am reffering to the fact that most of whatever you purchased just 10 years ago from your chicken dinner, to a lightbulb, to a car. Now most of that is made domestically. The market here plus the CIS is not a small one either.
Well and Russia is also a leading exporter or arms, machinery, aerospace technology, nuclear reactors and so on. So not only oil ;)

However we are getting way off topic here.

From what I see the topic here is the crisis in Ukraine. Not the positive and negative effects on Russia's economy and that of the Netherlands from our mutual sanctions.

So to get back on topic:
3 and a half years ago one bunch of thugs replaced another in Ukraine. Crashed what was left of the economy, ran up a nice debt but however those same people that were standing on the Maidan and calling for an overthrow of the government after getting into power did quite a nice job stuffing their pockets.
Anyone care to debate this point?
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Mon Oct 16, 2017 6:15 pm

tu204 wrote:
1) Having been to Crimea last year and knowing people from Crimea that live here on the mainland I really see nothing wrong with only 100k people voting to stay with Ukraine. You really don't understand just how much pretty much everyone on that peninsula wanted nothing to do with Ukraine. They had refferendums before on this question and the result was pretty much the same. Those by the way were disracded by Ukraine.
So I do kind of see your point with why they didn't put a third question for independence on the ballot, but I see absolutely nothing suspicious with either the turnout or the result.


Authority argument and anecdotal evidence. So no argumentation at all.

Please continue on how valid the results were of this "referendum", could you please elaborate how the run-up to this referendum was and how the people were informed for the pro's and con's and how they could vote to remain with Ukraine if that's what they wanted and how we know the results were fair and without any fake results?

tu204 wrote:
2) Unfortunately it takes Russians a little kick in the ass to get moving. Incredible potential and resources (both human and natural) but also laziness and wanting to get a lot and not do much to get it. Similar to Ukrainians but not quite as bad ;) . So for the 20 years after the collapse of the USSR it was a matter of importing shit from Europe/China and re-selling it here. That was the deal. Government programs in the 2000's were only semi-effective in creating some internal production. But ruining relations with the best has done wonders, something no state programs could ever hope to accomplish. I am not talking about exports either. I am reffering to the fact that most of whatever you purchased just 10 years ago from your chicken dinner, to a lightbulb, to a car. Now most of that is made domestically. The market here plus the CIS is not a small one either.
Well and Russia is also a leading exporter or arms, machinery, aerospace technology, nuclear reactors and so on. So not only oil ;)


Russia has an economy roughly the size of the BeNeLux or smaller than Italy.


Image

Income per capita was in 2015 at a level of 2006(!)

The annual growth of the Russian GDP according to World Bank:[99][100]

Year 1999 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 (p)
% GDP 6.4 10.0 5.1 4.7 7.3 7.2 6.4 8.2 8.5 5.2 -7.8 4.5 4.3 3 .4 1.3 0.7 -3.7 -0.6 1.5


Thus, still haven't risen that much.

Image

So crude oil + refined oil product accounts for ca. 70% of the export of Russia (2013 numbers).

As for imports, because of high inflation and overall economy, imports are expensive for Russians.

tu204 wrote:
However we are getting way off topic here.

From what I see the topic here is the crisis in Ukraine. Not the positive and negative effects on Russia's economy and that of the Netherlands from our mutual sanctions.

So to get back on topic:
3 and a half years ago one bunch of thugs replaced another in Ukraine. Crashed what was left of the economy, ran up a nice debt but however, those same people that were standing on the Maidan and calling for an overthrow of the government after getting into power did quite a nice job stuffing their pockets.
Anyone care to debate this point?
[/quote][/quote]

The sanctions are because of Russian involvement in the Ukraine crisis, so right on topic. The sanctions are tailor-made for the corrupt gang in and around the Kremlin and they must hurt them. Russian sanctions are well, ah well, kind of cute and primarily target Russian citizens because some products aren't available or more expensive. As for the Netherlands, records are broken year after year for agricultural products, including those sanctioned. So not quite that impressive ;-)

Still in denial about Putin's Russia play and all the soldiers whom died in Ukraine for mother Russia and how Russia shot down the MH17 with 202 innocent civilians. So how should the world react to all this Russian aggesion?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
WIederling
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:27 pm

Dutchy wrote:
As for imports, because of high inflation and overall economy, imports are expensive for Russians.


A ball perfectly placed for Putin.

It forced the RF to kickstart internal production, getting away from that bloodletting import "most everything".
Super. Couldn't have been better arranged.

Added bonus: those baddies in the West are responsible. not Putin.

Though the revenue from sellling hydrocarbons has been constant that revenue has much more value inside the RF.
Same for any other exports.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Mon Oct 16, 2017 8:34 pm

WIederling wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
As for imports, because of high inflation and overall economy, imports are expensive for Russians.


A ball perfectly placed for Putin.

It forced the RF to kickstart internal production, getting away from that bloodletting import "most everything".
Super. Couldn't have been better arranged.

Added bonus: those baddies in the West are responsible. not Putin.

Though the revenue from sellling hydrocarbons has been constant that revenue has much more value inside the RF.
Same for any other exports.


Kuddos to Putin, and gaining illegal a piece of land, gaining illegal and covertly a piece of land - eastern Ukraine and Georgia - and being to smart to the rest of the world to kickstart his own industry. Brilliantly played.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:08 pm

Dutchy wrote:

The sanctions are because of Russian involvement in the Ukraine crisis, so right on topic. The sanctions are tailor-made for the corrupt gang in and around the Kremlin and they must hurt them. Russian sanctions are well, ah well, kind of cute and primarily target Russian citizens because some products aren't available or more expensive. As for the Netherlands, records are broken year after year for agricultural products, including those sanctioned. So not quite that impressive ;-)

Still in denial about Putin's Russia play and all the soldiers whom died in Ukraine for mother Russia and how Russia shot down the MH17 with 202 innocent civilians. So how should the world react to all this Russian aggesion?


Well I don't see what there is to discuss in regards to Russia then.

Clearly the publicly stated goal of these sanctions failed miserably on your guys' part because the only political effect they had in Russia was to boost Putin's rating to an all time high.

I doubt that was the plan. However it isn't our fault that your politicans or statesmen cannot think more than one step ahead of their actions.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
salttee
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:14 pm

tu204 wrote:
Clearly the publicly stated goal of these sanctions failed miserably on your guys' part because the only political effect they had in Russia was to boost Putin's rating to an all time high.


The game ain't over until it's over.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Thu Oct 19, 2017 6:16 pm

tu204 wrote:
Well I don't see what there is to discuss in regards to Russia then.


Ok, what is there to discuss about Ukraine than?

salttee wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Clearly the publicly stated goal of these sanctions failed miserably on your guys' part because the only political effect they had in Russia was to boost Putin's rating to an all time high.


The game ain't over until it's over.


:checkmark:
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Wed Nov 01, 2017 5:31 pm

Dutchy wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Well I don't see what there is to discuss in regards to Russia then.


Ok, what is there to discuss about Ukraine than?



I dunno. Maybe how Ukraine has turned itself into a free for all mess where if you find a likeminded bunch of thugs, find some weapons and you can pretty much do anything you please?

Like "put pressure" on the court during proceedings against one of your buddies by literally trashing it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFIsrCRWec8
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov
 
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Tugger
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Wed Nov 01, 2017 6:23 pm

tu204 wrote:
Like "put pressure" on the court during proceedings against one of your buddies by literally trashing it.

Oh, well now you are talking about Russia? OK you are allowed to change your mind.

You do know what reiderstvo is, correct? And how famously compromised Russian courts are, especially being open to political influence and interference, right?
http://www.business-anti-corruption.com ... les/russia
https://www.coe.int/en/web/commissioner ... ktop=false

But don't worry tu204, we all understand that you actually cannot speak out against Russia and Putin favored policies without risk to yourself. So we understand you will have to be non-committal or reject the idea in any reply.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Wed Nov 01, 2017 9:31 pm

Tugger wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Like "put pressure" on the court during proceedings against one of your buddies by literally trashing it.

Oh, well now you are talking about Russia? OK you are allowed to change your mind.

You do know what reiderstvo is, correct? And how famously compromised Russian courts are, especially being open to political influence and interference, right?
http://www.business-anti-corruption.com ... les/russia
https://www.coe.int/en/web/commissioner ... ktop=false

But don't worry tu204, we all understand that you actually cannot speak out against Russia and Putin favored policies without risk to yourself. So we understand you will have to be non-committal or reject the idea in any reply.

Tugg


:checkmark: True, so we have to respect his "opinion" and you are right, we can't ask him to be critical of the Putin regime.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Thu Nov 02, 2017 6:59 am

Dutchy wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Well, i am happy that Russia is happy to apply the Morgentau plan to itself. Russians even think like the people of North Korea as is evident from you, i wonder when Russian people will start referring to Putin as God...... and as far as export statistics go, Russians exports are overwhelmingly on bonce age technology level. Even the Soviet Union was technologically competitive, Russia falls behind a month or two every year that passes.

best regards
Thomas


don't hey refer to Putin as someone whom can't do harm? The biggest export by far is sunlight of million years ago: oil. Oil is on its way out anyway.


Why do people keep up with this oil is on the way out bs, it's not, maybe for personal transportation the world is slowly creaping towards change but our economies run on the stuff and it can't be replaced by windturbines and solar arrays.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:16 am

Dutchy wrote:
As for imports, because of high inflation and overall economy, imports are expensive for Russians.


I find it cheaper there than in Norway and the rest of Europe for the same brands.

At least in the industry I participate in activity is booming, the NEVA trade show I was at in September was the biggest in many years, at the last show in 2015 Western companies were absent but this year all of them were back.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:21 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
Well, i am happy that Russia is happy to apply the Morgentau plan to itself. Russians even think like the people of North Korea as is evident from you, i wonder when Russian people will start referring to Putin as God...... and as far as export statistics go, Russians exports are overwhelmingly on bonce age technology level. Even the Soviet Union was technologically competitive, Russia falls behind a month or two every year that passes.

best regards
Thomas


don't hey refer to Putin as someone whom can't do harm? The biggest export by far is sunlight of million years ago: oil. Oil is on its way out anyway.


Why do people keep up with this oil is on the way out bs, it's not, maybe for personal transportation the world is slowly creaping towards change but our economies run on the stuff and it can't be replaced by windturbines and solar arrays.


You sound like someone from the stone age saying that the economy runs on stone and we should stop saying that stone is on its way out.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:30 am

salttee wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Clearly the publicly stated goal of these sanctions failed miserably on your guys' part because the only political effect they had in Russia was to boost Putin's rating to an all time high.


The game ain't over until it's over.


Additional sanctions won't do much except further wean Russia off imported technology. It's not such a big deal for American companies, they aren't that active in Russia but for many European companies the ongoing sanctions have hurt. The new sanctions on Russia which the US voted on will cause real harm to Europe, it's going to cause a further degradation in the EU-US relationship.

The EU has previously coordinated with the US over sanctions in response to Russia's annexation of Crimea from Ukraine. But it fears the latest measures could hit companies that are involved in the financing of a controversial new pipeline, Nord Stream 2, that would carry natural gas from Russia to Germany.

Juncker said the bill could have "unintended unilateral effects" on the EU's energy security. "This is why the Commission concluded today that if our concerns are not taken into account sufficiently, we stand ready to act appropriately within a matter of days," Juncker said. "America first cannot mean that Europe's interests come last."

Germany, which strongly backs the new pipeline, said it was concerned over the sanctions. It would be "unacceptable for the United States to use possible sanctions as an instrument to serve the interests of US industry policies," Foreign Ministry spokesman Martin Schäfer said Wednesday.

France called the US bill "unlawful" due to its "extraterritorial reach," saying it could impact Europeans if enacted. "We have challenged similar texts in the past," the Foreign Ministry said in a statement. "To protect ourselves against the extraterritorial effects of US legislation, we will have to work on adjusting our French and European laws."
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:46 am

Dutchy wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Dutchy wrote:

don't hey refer to Putin as someone whom can't do harm? The biggest export by far is sunlight of million years ago: oil. Oil is on its way out anyway.


Why do people keep up with this oil is on the way out bs, it's not, maybe for personal transportation the world is slowly creaping towards change but our economies run on the stuff and it can't be replaced by windturbines and solar arrays.


You sound like someone from the stone age saying that the economy runs on stone and we should stop saying that stone is on its way out.


Stone never left, you can still buy stone, it's still used for building, it's used in roads, it's a major component of concrete, the world can't live without stone.

You're thinking of oil for personal transportation, you and I will be long dead and buried before oil is no longer a major component of the world economy.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:01 am

My partner always says, don't think for others.

I am thinking about a world without oil or better fossil fuels in general. Last to go will probably be plastics. But burning fossil fuels for heating, transportation, electricity or other things is just a stupid use of fossil reservices and harms the planet biggly ;-)
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tu204
Posts: 1542
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Re: Ukraine Crisis, Part 3

Thu Nov 02, 2017 7:53 pm

Tugger wrote:
tu204 wrote:
Like "put pressure" on the court during proceedings against one of your buddies by literally trashing it.

Oh, well now you are talking about Russia? OK you are allowed to change your mind.

You do know what reiderstvo is, correct? And how famously compromised Russian courts are, especially being open to political influence and interference, right?
http://www.business-anti-corruption.com ... les/russia
https://www.coe.int/en/web/commissioner ... ktop=false

But don't worry tu204, we all understand that you actually cannot speak out against Russia and Putin favored policies without risk to yourself. So we understand you will have to be non-committal or reject the idea in any reply.

Tugg


Completely irrelevant in this topic. This topic, I remind you is called "Ukraine Crisis", not "Russian Courts" or "American Courts" or whatever.

For the record though, I don't think that even in Afghanistan or Pakistan something like I posted in the video of the mob trashing the court could happen.

And it could not have happened in Ukraine either before the 2014 coup.
I do not dream about movie stars, they must dream about me for I am real and they are not. - Alexander Popov

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