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Mortyman
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Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:58 am

Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

German Chancellor Angela Merkel has endorsed the idea of a joint European aircraft carrier.

The idea was suggested by her party’s leader, Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer.

Germany and France are already working together on a future European combat aircraft.

“The next step could be to start on the symbolic project of building a common European aircraft carrier” to underline what the EU calls its global security role.


https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/germany ... KhTD1LWJDo

Well, well well …. This is gonna be interesting ...
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sat Apr 13, 2019 2:58 am

Mortyman wrote:
Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

German Chancellor Angela Merkel has endorsed the idea of a joint European aircraft carrier.

The idea was suggested by her party’s leader, Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer.

Germany and France are already working together on a future European combat aircraft.

“The next step could be to start on the symbolic project of building a common European aircraft carrier” to underline what the EU calls its global security role.


https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/germany ... KhTD1LWJDo

Well, well well …. This is gonna be interesting ...

It gives FCAS a slightly bigger market and a justification for Germany using a carrier variant but I cannot imagine that a joint carrier design will in anyway be cheap.

Questions would be whether it would be CATOBAR, nuclear powered, does Europe have enough experience vessels to make it feasible defensively, how about large support ships to sustain it at sea.

There are a lot of hidden costs here that need to be considered before the thought bubble becomes remotely worth pursuing.
 
YIMBY
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sat Apr 13, 2019 5:11 am

Would it be a jointly owned and jointly operated, or jointly designed for different navies?

If it is a common carrier, would it be under EU, WEU, Nato or a smaller club of countries?

What would it be used for? If would be less easy to deploy the carrier in alien waters when you need that to be approved by several governments and parliaments and who knows what. Evidently they are thinking some "peace-keeping" operations in the third world. I do not see it having a major role in defending Europe against Russia (or China, US, whichever superpower to threaten Europe).
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sat Apr 13, 2019 6:41 am

YIMBY wrote:
Would it be a jointly owned and jointly operated, or jointly designed for different navies?

If it is a common carrier, would it be under EU, WEU, Nato or a smaller club of countries?

What would it be used for? If would be less easy to deploy the carrier in alien waters when you need that to be approved by several governments and parliaments and who knows what. Evidently they are thinking some "peace-keeping" operations in the third world. I do not see it having a major role in defending Europe against Russia (or China, US, whichever superpower to threaten Europe).

In that context perhaps an LHD is a better option that is more for disaster relief and RW operations that a carrier for FW strike operations.
 
JayinKitsap
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sat Apr 13, 2019 7:21 am

Ozair wrote:
YIMBY wrote:
Would it be a jointly owned and jointly operated, or jointly designed for different navies?

If it is a common carrier, would it be under EU, WEU, Nato or a smaller club of countries?

What would it be used for? If would be less easy to deploy the carrier in alien waters when you need that to be approved by several governments and parliaments and who knows what. Evidently they are thinking some "peace-keeping" operations in the third world. I do not see it having a major role in defending Europe against Russia (or China, US, whichever superpower to threaten Europe).

In that context perhaps an LHD is a better option that is more for disaster relief and RW operations that a carrier for FW strike operations.


It would look quite good with F-35B's on its deck too.
 
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N14AZ
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sat Apr 13, 2019 8:42 am

Fantastic idea - increasing the budget for defence and strengthening the European Union.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:54 am

N14AZ wrote:
Fantastic idea - increasing the budget for defence and strengthening the European Union.


more effectively using the budget for defense, not really increasing the budget.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
texl1649
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:36 am

Actually a very good idea, I can’t believe she endorsed it. ALL carriers are extremely expensive (to both build and operate), the Invincible class cost the Brits 3 billion (euros) a piece or so I believe. (Of course, something tells me the German/French folks won’t want to copy too much from the British design/production to save cost).
 
johns624
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:04 pm

I interpret it as "we want a carrier like the British and French but we're too cheap to pay for the whole thing so we'll get smaller countries to help us but we'll be the boss".
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:31 pm

One of the proposals:

Image


Looks too small with almost no room for the aircraft on deck ...
 
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bikerthai
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sat Apr 13, 2019 1:26 pm

I for one hope they do fund this project. That would mean there may be less money for the A320 MMA. And they may buy the P-8A after all.

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WIederling
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:57 pm

JayinKitsap wrote:
It would look quite good with F-35B's on its deck too.


It will get a complement of Do31s for to be able to throw more sacks of rice on those suffering.
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YIMBY
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sat Apr 13, 2019 3:57 pm

Ozair wrote:
YIMBY wrote:
Would it be a jointly owned and jointly operated, or jointly designed for different navies?

If it is a common carrier, would it be under EU, WEU, Nato or a smaller club of countries?

What would it be used for? If would be less easy to deploy the carrier in alien waters when you need that to be approved by several governments and parliaments and who knows what. Evidently they are thinking some "peace-keeping" operations in the third world. I do not see it having a major role in defending Europe against Russia (or China, US, whichever superpower to threaten Europe).

In that context perhaps an LHD is a better option that is more for disaster relief and RW operations that a carrier for FW strike operations.


Whatever acronym they want to use, but F35B is the perfect gun in the deck. (Assuming Uncle Sam sells it and there won't emerge any fatal technical obstacles and it won't get obsolete before the carriers are ready for operations).
No need to develop a separate carrier aircraft (unless).
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sat Apr 13, 2019 4:20 pm

Ozair wrote:
[
It gives FCAS a slightly bigger market and a justification for Germany using a carrier variant but I cannot imagine that a joint carrier design will in anyway be cheap.

Questions would be whether it would be CATOBAR, nuclear powered, does Europe have enough experience vessels to make it feasible defensively, how about large support ships to sustain it at sea.

There are a lot of hidden costs here that need to be considered before the thought bubble becomes remotely worth pursuing.


The sensible solution would be the catobar version of CVF, PA2, which the French already own the design of. They would also need two of them, the logical place the build them would be France. There are plenty of large support vessels in operation in Europe to support a CV, the Germans have 3 Berlin Class AOR's, the French and Italians are building 6 Volcano class logistics support vessels, the Spanish have the Cantabria , Norway has just commissioned Queen Maud.

Image
 
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Zkpilot
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Sat Apr 13, 2019 9:32 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Ozair wrote:
[
It gives FCAS a slightly bigger market and a justification for Germany using a carrier variant but I cannot imagine that a joint carrier design will in anyway be cheap.

Questions would be whether it would be CATOBAR, nuclear powered, does Europe have enough experience vessels to make it feasible defensively, how about large support ships to sustain it at sea.

There are a lot of hidden costs here that need to be considered before the thought bubble becomes remotely worth pursuing.


The sensible solution would be the catobar version of CVF, PA2, which the French already own the design of. They would also need two of them, the logical place the build them would be France. There are plenty of large support vessels in operation in Europe to support a CV, the Germans have 3 Berlin Class AOR's, the French and Italians are building 6 Volcano class logistics support vessels, the Spanish have the Cantabria , Norway has just commissioned Queen Maud.

Image
Yes it would certainly make sense to use an existing design, not least because of cost savings, but also shared parts, training, inter-operability etc.
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Mon Apr 15, 2019 1:27 am

So Europe has lots of support ships, do they have sufficient AA and ASW assets to deploy with the carrier for protection?
Forget the F35, if the Europeans are going to build their own carrier they wont be putting USA assets onboard, and that includes the E2,
I see a side project for their own AWACS based on the ATR platform or some such.

If they only purchase / build one, with training, do we assume 1 deployment per year of 1 to 3 months duration?
 
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Mon Apr 15, 2019 2:36 am

Surreal defense planning going on in France and Germany.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:13 am

par13del wrote:
So Europe has lots of support ships, do they have sufficient AA and ASW assets to deploy with the carrier for protection?
Forget the F35, if the Europeans are going to build their own carrier they wont be putting USA assets onboard, and that includes the E2,
I see a side project for their own AWACS based on the ATR platform or some such.

If they only purchase / build one, with training, do we assume 1 deployment per year of 1 to 3 months duration?


I think they do.

I could see the Germans/French building a shared vessel and (maybe) the French building another one for themselves, CdG is a bit of a lemon. They really would need two otherwise as you say if would spend the majority of it's time training and under maintenance.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:38 am

This is nothing but the Germans trolling the French and to some extent the British and Americans. All of them want the Germans to invest more money for defence, but in the end a lot of their own defence interests are outside the scope of NATO and EU operations, so limiting a carrier to EU/NATO use would make a worthless ship for them. So they reject the German proposal and Germans can say, well you did not want to join in a common project, so your fault.
 
mxaxai
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Mon Apr 15, 2019 12:18 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
par13del wrote:
So Europe has lots of support ships, do they have sufficient AA and ASW assets to deploy with the carrier for protection?
Forget the F35, if the Europeans are going to build their own carrier they wont be putting USA assets onboard, and that includes the E2,
I see a side project for their own AWACS based on the ATR platform or some such.

If they only purchase / build one, with training, do we assume 1 deployment per year of 1 to 3 months duration?


I think they do.

I could see the Germans/French building a shared vessel and (maybe) the French building another one for themselves, CdG is a bit of a lemon. They really would need two otherwise as you say if would spend the majority of it's time training and under maintenance.

Reusing the QE design, but with CATOBAR, would be the most sensible way to approach this. 2 CVs sounds like a good number. The EU navies have sufficient blue water ships to protect and replenish another carrier. And adding one or two support ships shouldn't be too difficult. Ideally, this ship would be built by a single experienced shipyard. The only multi-national aspect would be that the crew (and potentially aircraft) are from multiple EU nations.

Realistically, this will take decades of political negotiations, alienate the remaining EU members, result in a clean sheet design that is years late, billions over budget and probably can't fit the carrier-capable FCAS version.
For the record, I believe that Germany has zero military reasons to operate aircraft carriers. But the EU as a whole might make use of them.
 
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:20 pm

If Germany wants the US to take them seriously so that they can become a member of FVEY, they're going to need to do more than pitch the radical idea of an EU carrier.
 
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Mon Apr 15, 2019 3:50 pm

Looking at this, this would be a support craft (supporting a humanitarian or other sanctioned mission) and not one for truly contested waters?

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hmmwv
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:09 pm

France, Italy, and Spain all have their carriers already, so this will really be a Germany+Northern European carrier. I can see this as a conventional version of the CdG, with Rafale or Typhoon as the main fighter, future target will be the new common stealth fighter. There is no way that Europe can develop a dedicated fixed wing AEW&C so my bet is EH101 with a laundry basket on the side.
 
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Mon Apr 15, 2019 7:15 pm

hmmwv wrote:
There is no way that Europe can develop a dedicated fixed wing AEW&C so my bet is EH101 with a laundry basket on the side.


Why not? But then again why would they? Would be more cost effective to get the E-2.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:09 pm

hmmwv wrote:
France, Italy, and Spain all have their carriers already, so this will really be a Germany+Northern European carrier. I can see this as a conventional version of the CdG, with Rafale or Typhoon as the main fighter, future target will be the new common stealth fighter. There is no way that Europe can develop a dedicated fixed wing AEW&C so my bet is EH101 with a laundry basket on the side.

There is already a AWACS version of the CASA-295. And several regional jets and budiness jets have the Swedish Erieye mounted. So if there is a will, there’s a way.

That said, the European nations would be mad to join Germany into a project like this. Germany has a long history of starting/joining European weapons programmes, only scale back or drop out altogether.
Attamottamotta!
 
hmmwv
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:26 pm

Dutchy wrote:
hmmwv wrote:
There is no way that Europe can develop a dedicated fixed wing AEW&C so my bet is EH101 with a laundry basket on the side.


Why not? But then again why would they? Would be more cost effective to get the E-2.


The whole exercise sounds like the Europeans trying to reduce reliance on the US, so I think they will do everything they can to use European products. Otherwise it's far more cost effective to just buy more Juan Carlos I class ships and put F-35Bs on the deck.
 
hmmwv
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Mon Apr 15, 2019 8:36 pm

petertenthije wrote:
There is already a AWACS version of the CASA-295. And several regional jets and budiness jets have the Swedish Erieye mounted. So if there is a will, there’s a way.

That said, the European nations would be mad to join Germany into a project like this. Germany has a long history of starting/joining European weapons programmes, only scale back or drop out altogether.


Things like the CASA-295 are not designed from ground up as a carrier based fixed wing aircraft, and it will be extremely difficult if not possible to convert one for that use, yes the USN was able to land a C-130 on a carrier but it's a one off trial. Taking off is the easy part, but you need an aircraft that can take the punishment of carrier landing, endure salt mist corrosion, and with folding wings/tails for hangar storage. Any swept wing business jets are out of the question. A good small turboprop will be a good starting point, but it'll be an almost clean sheet design.
 
petertenthije
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:08 pm

hmmwv wrote:
petertenthije wrote:
There is already a AWACS version of the CASA-295. And several regional jets and budiness jets have the Swedish Erieye mounted. So if there is a will, there’s a way.

That said, the European nations would be mad to join Germany into a project like this. Germany has a long history of starting/joining European weapons programmes, only scale back or drop out altogether.


Things like the CASA-295 are not designed from ground up as a carrier based fixed wing aircraft, and it will be extremely difficult if not possible to convert one for that use, yes the USN was able to land a C-130 on a carrier but it's a one off trial. Taking off is the easy part, but you need an aircraft that can take the punishment of carrier landing, endure salt mist corrosion, and with folding wings/tails for hangar storage. Any swept wing business jets are out of the question. A good small turboprop will be a good starting point, but it'll be an almost clean sheet design.
Both the CASA and also the C27 are designed for rough landings. If that will be enough for carriers I do not know.

Otherwise; for true wildcards, how about an Antonov? Back in soviet times Antonov proposed the An-72 for use on carriers, but the collapse of the Soviet Union cut that short.
Attamottamotta!
 
mjoelnir
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Tue Apr 16, 2019 12:17 am

Regarding air defense of a carrier, the German Navy has the 3 Sachsen class frigates 5.800 t, designed for air defense and have been operating in Nato exercises as part of carrier groups. If the one or two carriers would be part of a northern European effort, Norway, the Netherlands and Denmark could provide a few more air defense frigates.

I would assume air defense to be the least worry.
 
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:18 am

Norway alo has a brand New replenishment ship:

HNoMS Maud

Image
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:19 am

hmmwv wrote:
France, Italy, and Spain all have their carriers already, so this will really be a Germany+Northern European carrier. I can see this as a conventional version of the CdG, with Rafale or Typhoon as the main fighter, future target will be the new common stealth fighter. There is no way that Europe can develop a dedicated fixed wing AEW&C so my bet is EH101 with a laundry basket on the side.


I believe the French has started planning on what to replace their current aircraft carrier
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:02 am

hmmwv wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
hmmwv wrote:
There is no way that Europe can develop a dedicated fixed wing AEW&C so my bet is EH101 with a laundry basket on the side.


Why not? But then again why would they? Would be more cost effective to get the E-2.


The whole exercise sounds like the Europeans trying to reduce reliance on the US, so I think they will do everything they can to use European products. Otherwise it's far more cost effective to just buy more Juan Carlos I class ships and put F-35Bs on the deck.


Juan Carlos is not an aircraft carrier, she's an amphibious assault ship. The French have three of them and the Italians another 3, with a new larger class under construction. .
 
VSMUT
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Tue Apr 16, 2019 9:07 am

Mortyman wrote:
One of the proposals:

Image


Looks too small with almost no room for the aircraft on deck ...


The DCNS Evolved Aircraft Carrier. It's an updated Charles de Gaulle with conventional powerplant. Flight deck and aircraft complement is pretty much the same size as the Queen Elizabeth class (around 40 aircraft), but displacement is about 20.000 tons smaller. Pretty close to the 2 new Indian carriers and the US America class.
 
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:18 am

Mortyman wrote:
Norway alo has a brand New replenishment ship:

HNoMS Maud

Image


The suggestion made by Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer intended the aircraft carrier to be a joint EU project. Though the German and Norwegian navys are cooperating on multiple levels today, I don’t think having non-EU nations join was on her mind.
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:46 am

vr773 wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
Norway alo has a brand New replenishment ship:

HNoMS Maud

Image


The suggestion made by Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer intended the aircraft carrier to be a joint EU project. Though the German and Norwegian navys are cooperating on multiple levels today, I don’t think having non-EU nations join was on her mind.


Correct and Norway has already resources set aside for NATO today.

That said, our polticians in Norway has no respect for the people of Norway and are accepting EU laws quicker that any EU nation and acts like Norway is a part of EU, even though the Norwegian people has said no twice and something like 70 % of the population is against membership .... Unfortunetly all the major political parties in Norway is for the EU and work against the Norwegian population's wishes..

As for EU millitary. That is the one place were our government is not prepared to let go of NATO. Our politicians don't believe that EU can replace NATO, so it will have to be an adittion to NATO.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Tue Apr 16, 2019 1:58 pm

Mortyman wrote:
vr773 wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
Norway alo has a brand New replenishment ship:

HNoMS Maud

Image


The suggestion made by Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer intended the aircraft carrier to be a joint EU project. Though the German and Norwegian navys are cooperating on multiple levels today, I don’t think having non-EU nations join was on her mind.


Correct and Norway has already resources set aside for NATO today.

That said, our polticians in Norway has no respect for the people of Norway and are accepting EU laws quicker that any EU nation and acts like Norway is a part of EU, even though the Norwegian people has said no twice and something like 70 % of the population is against membership .... Unfortunetly all the major political parties in Norway is for the EU and work against the Norwegian population's wishes..

As for EU millitary. That is the one place were our government is not prepared to let go of NATO. Our politicians don't believe that EU can replace NATO, so it will have to be an adittion to NATO.


As a person living in Norway I would wholeheartedly support Norway joining the EU and adopting the EURO, the current situation where Norway follows all the rules but has no representation is unbelievable.

The Norwegian people would be much better off joining the EU and reaping the benefits of the customs union, we'd see prices for almost everything slashed across the board, we would not be held to ransom by the farming community, we'd get better quality and significantly cheap food. Clothing and electronics would come down in price and Norwegian companies would have completely seamless access to European markets. And the daft 400NOK including postage rule would be gone for items imported from the EU.

I'm also in favour of EU countries abandoning NATO, it's time is up, it's now just a tool for the US to use in it's pointless wars, wars which Norway/Europe had no place participating in. Norway did not need to be anywhere near Afghanistan or Iraq, nor should they have bombed Libya. The only recent outing of the Norwegian military that was justified were the Balkan Wars, they were European conflicts that needed to be resolved by Europe.
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Tue Apr 16, 2019 3:16 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
vr773 wrote:

The suggestion made by Annegret Kramp-Karrenbauer intended the aircraft carrier to be a joint EU project. Though the German and Norwegian navys are cooperating on multiple levels today, I don’t think having non-EU nations join was on her mind.


Correct and Norway has already resources set aside for NATO today.

That said, our polticians in Norway has no respect for the people of Norway and are accepting EU laws quicker that any EU nation and acts like Norway is a part of EU, even though the Norwegian people has said no twice and something like 70 % of the population is against membership .... Unfortunetly all the major political parties in Norway is for the EU and work against the Norwegian population's wishes..

As for EU millitary. That is the one place were our government is not prepared to let go of NATO. Our politicians don't believe that EU can replace NATO, so it will have to be an adittion to NATO.


As a person living in Norway I would wholeheartedly support Norway joining the EU and adopting the EURO, the current situation where Norway follows all the rules but has no representation is unbelievable.

The Norwegian people would be much better off joining the EU and reaping the benefits of the customs union, we'd see prices for almost everything slashed across the board, we would not be held to ransom by the farming community, we'd get better quality and significantly cheap food. Clothing and electronics would come down in price and Norwegian companies would have completely seamless access to European markets. And the daft 400NOK including postage rule would be gone for items imported from the EU.

I'm also in favour of EU countries abandoning NATO, it's time is up, it's now just a tool for the US to use in it's pointless wars, wars which Norway/Europe had no place participating in. Norway did not need to be anywhere near Afghanistan or Iraq, nor should they have bombed Libya. The only recent outing of the Norwegian military that was justified were the Balkan Wars, they were European conflicts that needed to be resolved by Europe.


Norway follow all rules because Norwegian politicans purposly don't use the veto.

if we were to become a member we would get something like one vote and not really more to say.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Tue Apr 16, 2019 4:04 pm

Mortyman wrote:
As for EU millitary. That is the one place were our government is not prepared to let go of NATO. Our politicians don't believe that EU can replace NATO, so it will have to be an adittion to NATO.


You may not want to go that route, but when all European nations have bailed on NATO, you are going to start feeling really lonely up there.


Kiwirob wrote:
As a person living in Norway I would wholeheartedly support Norway joining the EU and adopting the EURO, the current situation where Norway follows all the rules but has no representation is unbelievable.

The Norwegian people would be much better off joining the EU and reaping the benefits of the customs union, we'd see prices for almost everything slashed across the board, we would not be held to ransom by the farming community, we'd get better quality and significantly cheap food. Clothing and electronics would come down in price and Norwegian companies would have completely seamless access to European markets. And the daft 400NOK including postage rule would be gone for items imported from the EU.


I never understood why Norwegians felt this need to suffer from excessive consumer prices, almost annual shortages of dairy products and not to get a say in politics that affect them. Why? To protect a few billionaire fishing moguls?
 
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Tugger
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Tue Apr 16, 2019 5:16 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
As for EU millitary. That is the one place were our government is not prepared to let go of NATO. Our politicians don't believe that EU can replace NATO, so it will have to be an adittion to NATO.


You may not want to go that route, but when all European nations have bailed on NATO, you are going to start feeling really lonely up there.

I am good with NATO being revised. However whatever supplants NATO will follow a lot of its current mature. It will be inclusive of "other like-minded nations or defense organizations" because the dumbest thing the nations could do is break apart and work as competing defense entities.

They will keep close together, even if allowing separate elements, to ensure not being split and becoming weaker against known (or perceived) threats.

Tugg
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:14 pm

Mortyman wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Mortyman wrote:

Correct and Norway has already resources set aside for NATO today.

That said, our polticians in Norway has no respect for the people of Norway and are accepting EU laws quicker that any EU nation and acts like Norway is a part of EU, even though the Norwegian people has said no twice and something like 70 % of the population is against membership .... Unfortunetly all the major political parties in Norway is for the EU and work against the Norwegian population's wishes..

As for EU millitary. That is the one place were our government is not prepared to let go of NATO. Our politicians don't believe that EU can replace NATO, so it will have to be an adittion to NATO.


As a person living in Norway I would wholeheartedly support Norway joining the EU and adopting the EURO, the current situation where Norway follows all the rules but has no representation is unbelievable.

The Norwegian people would be much better off joining the EU and reaping the benefits of the customs union, we'd see prices for almost everything slashed across the board, we would not be held to ransom by the farming community, we'd get better quality and significantly cheap food. Clothing and electronics would come down in price and Norwegian companies would have completely seamless access to European markets. And the daft 400NOK including postage rule would be gone for items imported from the EU.

I'm also in favour of EU countries abandoning NATO, it's time is up, it's now just a tool for the US to use in it's pointless wars, wars which Norway/Europe had no place participating in. Norway did not need to be anywhere near Afghanistan or Iraq, nor should they have bombed Libya. The only recent outing of the Norwegian military that was justified were the Balkan Wars, they were European conflicts that needed to be resolved by Europe.


Norway follow all rules because Norwegian politicans purposly don't use the veto.

if we were to become a member we would get something like one vote and not really more to say.


One vote is better than no vote at all, plus we would have MEP’s.
 
Kiwirob
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:17 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
As for EU millitary. That is the one place were our government is not prepared to let go of NATO. Our politicians don't believe that EU can replace NATO, so it will have to be an adittion to NATO.


You may not want to go that route, but when all European nations have bailed on NATO, you are going to start feeling really lonely up there.


Kiwirob wrote:
As a person living in Norway I would wholeheartedly support Norway joining the EU and adopting the EURO, the current situation where Norway follows all the rules but has no representation is unbelievable.

The Norwegian people would be much better off joining the EU and reaping the benefits of the customs union, we'd see prices for almost everything slashed across the board, we would not be held to ransom by the farming community, we'd get better quality and significantly cheap food. Clothing and electronics would come down in price and Norwegian companies would have completely seamless access to European markets. And the daft 400NOK including postage rule would be gone for items imported from the EU.


I never understood why Norwegians felt this need to suffer from excessive consumer prices, almost annual shortages of dairy products and not to get a say in politics that affect them. Why? To protect a few billionaire fishing moguls?


It’s fishing, farming and the Norwegian voters were lied to and told they would lose their oil, which was complete BS because no EU nation has lost control of there oil reserves.
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Tue Apr 16, 2019 6:34 pm

This tread has gone of topic i think :-)
 
johns624
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Tue Apr 16, 2019 7:14 pm

First, they would have to decide what missions they want the ship to be capable of. "Humanitarian missions" isn't good enough. It's fine if you use a capable warship for them during peacetime, but that should just be a bonus. With limited defense budgets, that would be a waste. Also, a ship designed for the Baltic (where a carrier isn't really needed) would be much different than one capable of out-of-area deployments. I've read (Warship IFR) that European navies have realized that they maybe went too far towards humanitarian/stabilization missions and forgot about warfighting. The German F125 is a perfect example of this. They are expensive, yet have no ASW capability and very limited self defense AAW weapons.
 
hmmwv
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:18 pm

VSMUT wrote:
The DCNS Evolved Aircraft Carrier. It's an updated Charles de Gaulle with conventional powerplant. Flight deck and aircraft complement is pretty much the same size as the Queen Elizabeth class (around 40 aircraft), but displacement is about 20.000 tons smaller. Pretty close to the 2 new Indian carriers and the US America class.


It seems to me that CVF and later QE class doesn't have the most efficient use of space, the ship is roughly the same size as a Forrestal class carrier, with half the aircraft capacity, half the number of elevators, and STOVL-only. The only thing QE has more is the number of islands. CdG on the other hand is a pretty efficient design with comparable air wing size, nuclear powered, and CATOBAR. Obvious there are more factors than those specs, like creature comfort, endurance, damage control, C4ISR, etc.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Tue Apr 16, 2019 8:39 pm

hmmwv wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
The DCNS Evolved Aircraft Carrier. It's an updated Charles de Gaulle with conventional powerplant. Flight deck and aircraft complement is pretty much the same size as the Queen Elizabeth class (around 40 aircraft), but displacement is about 20.000 tons smaller. Pretty close to the 2 new Indian carriers and the US America class.


It seems to me that CVF and later QE class doesn't have the most efficient use of space, the ship is roughly the same size as a Forrestal class carrier, with half the aircraft capacity, half the number of elevators, and STOVL-only. The only thing QE has more is the number of islands. CdG on the other hand is a pretty efficient design with comparable air wing size, nuclear powered, and CATOBAR. Obvious there are more factors than those specs, like creature comfort, endurance, damage control, C4ISR, etc.


The Queen Elizabeth class has been designed as part conventional aircraft carrier, part assault ship/LHA. I think a lot of space is used/wasted on transporting ground forces and their equipment.
 
Ozair
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:04 pm

VSMUT wrote:
The DCNS Evolved Aircraft Carrier. It's an updated Charles de Gaulle with conventional powerplant. Flight deck and aircraft complement is pretty much the same size as the Queen Elizabeth class (around 40 aircraft), but displacement is about 20.000 tons smaller. Pretty close to the 2 new Indian carriers and the US America class.

The CdG is frankly, as Kiwirob alluded to earlier, an average design at best. It is not big enough for proper CATOBAR operations and by that I mean that the design limits the payload of the aircraft flying off it and the aircraft have specific bring back restrictions. It also isn’t able to generate sorties over the duration that the QE can which is the reason for the QE size.

hmmwv wrote:
It seems to me that CVF and later QE class doesn't have the most efficient use of space, the ship is roughly the same size as a Forrestal class carrier, with half the aircraft capacity, half the number of elevators, and STOVL-only. The only thing QE has more is the number of islands. CdG on the other hand is a pretty efficient design with comparable air wing size, nuclear powered, and CATOBAR. Obvious there are more factors than those specs, like creature comfort, endurance, damage control, C4ISR, etc.

The QE can take more aircraft if you need it to but the number of aircraft is reasonably unimportant above a certain size. The limiting factor becomes the ability to generate and sustain the sortie rate over an extended duration. The QE was designed specifically to accomplish that task, to conduct a 36 aircraft sortie on day one and then maintain a sustained rate of operations for many days before being replenished.

VSMUT wrote:
The Queen Elizabeth class has been designed as part conventional aircraft carrier, part assault ship/LHA. I think a lot of space is used/wasted on transporting ground forces and their equipment.

Not sure where that suggestion has come from other than the talk that surrounded making PoW a dedicated assault ship. Look at the cross section of QE, there is little specific storage for ground forces/equipment compared to conducting its primary purpose.

Image
 
johns624
Posts: 2038
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:12 pm

VSMUT wrote:
[
The Queen Elizabeth class has been designed as part conventional aircraft carrier, part assault ship/LHA. I think a lot of space is used/wasted on transporting ground forces and their equipment.
Nope.
 
lhrnue
Posts: 273
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Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Wed Apr 17, 2019 8:52 pm

vr773 wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
Norway alo has a brand New replenishment ship:

Image



So .... Norway built an A350.
 
johns624
Posts: 2038
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2008 11:09 pm

Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:01 am

That's A530, are you dyslexic (seriously)?
 
texl1649
Posts: 944
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2007 5:38 am

Re: Germany proposes joint European aircraft carrier

Thu Apr 18, 2019 1:40 am

Perhaps the Chinese could be convinced to sell the Varyag/Liaoning to the EU force for a song?

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