Looks a lot like the Northrop F-5 to me...

https://m.scmp.com/news/world/middle-ea ... lane?amp=1

Thoughts?

Marc

Looks indeed like a F-5F. The big question is: are these reworked, up-graded pre-Islamic revolution ones or are these reversed engineered thus new ones.

What happened to that supposed stealth fighter they unveil a while back ? Anyway, it would appear the Northrop patent must've run out.

Wow, they really out-did themselves with that one. Hmmm. I guess it's more propaganda for it being entirely "indigenous" although even those completely out of the loop have got to be asking themselves "doesn't that look like the same F5 they've been flying for decades?"

Dutchy wrote:

Looks indeed like a F-5F. The big question is: are these reworked, up-graded pre-Islamic revolution ones or are these reversed engineered thus new ones.

Look at the photo where the president(?) stands on the ground and waves at the pilots in the plane. The yellow/red rescue hatch under the canopy has English wording and instructions. Not what I’d expect from a brand new indigenous Iranian jet....

FrancisBegbie wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

Looks indeed like a F-5F. The big question is: are these reworked, up-graded pre-Islamic revolution ones or are these reversed engineered thus new ones.

Look at the photo where the president(?) stands on the ground and waves at the pilots in the plane. The yellow/red rescue hatch under the canopy has English wording and instructions. Not what I’d expect from a brand new indigenous Iranian jet....

Haha, oops!

I found a good quote from President Hassan at the unveiling ceremony..
"The enemy should see how expensive an invasion of Iran would be," he said. "Why does not the U.S wage a military attack on us? Because of our power."


That's like.. NK-level propaganda BS right there.


edit: Oh man, some of the comments on these articles have me in tears!
-"Iran's pilot training process is now the most efficient in the world - they only need to teach them how to take off"
-"Fortunately they are “100 percent indigenously made.” This means they probably won't get off the ground."
-"Imports of cardboard shot up by 800% during the construction phase of these jets...."
-"He's being shown how to pull up verses from the koran on the heads up display..."
-"I've seen this exact same fighter out in front of a Kroger. They just removed the coin slot."
-"Iran boasts that the new fighter utilizes the latest fly-by-wire technology and it's altitude is only limited by the height of the pole."

...okay I'll stop.

Back on topic.. what's the NATO designation going to be for this thing? TD-1 (target drone 1?)

...okay I'm really done now.

estorilm wrote:

FrancisBegbie wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

Looks indeed like a F-5F. The big question is: are these reworked, up-graded pre-Islamic revolution ones or are these reversed engineered thus new ones.

Look at the photo where the president(?) stands on the ground and waves at the pilots in the plane. The yellow/red rescue hatch under the canopy has English wording and instructions. Not what I’d expect from a brand new indigenous Iranian jet....

Haha, oops!

I found a good quote from President Hassan at the unveiling ceremony..
"The enemy should see how expensive an invasion of Iran would be," he said. "Why does not the U.S wage a military attack on us? Because of our power."


That's like.. NK-level propaganda BS right there.

Actually no, it is quite sensible. Make it for your enemy too expensive to attack, sure you can attack Iran, but what price are you willing to pay for it?

The question would be did they solve the engine, avionics challenge. If they can completely build and maintain them in the hundreds, it's added value. Do the Chinese produce a suitable engine?

2 x J85-GE-21 engines were stolen from Malaysia a decade ago. Maybe they had some recent valuable improvement of Irans; seventies J85's. Further more avionics, navigation, glass cockpit could be in these new ones.Maybe it's an enhancement of the HESA Saeqeh, although it has a single stabilizer.

Dutchy wrote:

estorilm wrote:

FrancisBegbie wrote:

Look at the photo where the president(?) stands on the ground and waves at the pilots in the plane. The yellow/red rescue hatch under the canopy has English wording and instructions. Not what I’d expect from a brand new indigenous Iranian jet....

Haha, oops!

I found a good quote from President Hassan at the unveiling ceremony..
"The enemy should see how expensive an invasion of Iran would be," he said. "Why does not the U.S wage a military attack on us? Because of our power."


That's like.. NK-level propaganda BS right there.

Actually no, it is quite sensible. Make it for your enemy too expensive to attack, sure you can attack Iran, but what price are you willing to pay for it?

I understand the concept perfectly, but not coming from Iran - and certainly not in the context of the most powerful military in the world.

It would be expensive, but as long as he's implying that their air power would somehow hinder US success in such a campaign, I remain confused. Anything not in a hardened bunker would be eliminated before any air war commenced, I assume the MIG-29s anf the remaining airworthy F-14s are protected - would be good BVR target practice for F-22s. Everything else could be wiped-out with 4th gen aircraft (probably F-15's in "missile carrier" config).

So yeah, it would be expensive, but that's purely logistical - has nothing to do with this aircraft or their "air force" as he's implying.

Would their pilots really come up to fight anyways?!

estorilm wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

estorilm wrote:

Haha, oops!

I found a good quote from President Hassan at the unveiling ceremony..
"The enemy should see how expensive an invasion of Iran would be," he said. "Why does not the U.S wage a military attack on us? Because of our power."


That's like.. NK-level propaganda BS right there.

Actually no, it is quite sensible. Make it for your enemy too expensive to attack, sure you can attack Iran, but what price are you willing to pay for it?

I understand the concept perfectly, but not coming from Iran - and certainly not in the context of the most powerful military in the world.

It would be expensive, but as long as he's implying that their air power would somehow hinder US success in such a campaign, I remain confused. Anything not in a hardened bunker would be eliminated before any air war commenced, I assume the MIG-29s anf the remaining airworthy F-14s are protected - would be good BVR target practice for F-22s. Everything else could be wiped-out with 4th gen aircraft (probably F-15's in "missile carrier" config).

So yeah, it would be expensive, but that's purely logistical - has nothing to do with this aircraft or their "air force" as he's implying.

Would their pilots really come up to fight anyways?!

Against an American led coalition, no probably not, at least not if they were smart. Against someone else, who knows.

Dutchy wrote:

estorilm wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

Actually no, it is quite sensible. Make it for your enemy too expensive to attack, sure you can attack Iran, but what price are you willing to pay for it?

I understand the concept perfectly, but not coming from Iran - and certainly not in the context of the most powerful military in the world.

It would be expensive, but as long as he's implying that their air power would somehow hinder US success in such a campaign, I remain confused. Anything not in a hardened bunker would be eliminated before any air war commenced, I assume the MIG-29s anf the remaining airworthy F-14s are protected - would be good BVR target practice for F-22s. Everything else could be wiped-out with 4th gen aircraft (probably F-15's in "missile carrier" config).

So yeah, it would be expensive, but that's purely logistical - has nothing to do with this aircraft or their "air force" as he's implying.

Would their pilots really come up to fight anyways?!

Against an American led coalition, no probably not, at least not if they were smart. Against someone else, who knows.

Very true - which is what I was thinking - although he specifically called out the US in the quote, which was odd.

Looking at their inventory, it doesn't appear that this thing really adds much capability to their air force, unless simply in sheer numbers.

estorilm wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

estorilm wrote:

I understand the concept perfectly, but not coming from Iran - and certainly not in the context of the most powerful military in the world.

It would be expensive, but as long as he's implying that their air power would somehow hinder US success in such a campaign, I remain confused. Anything not in a hardened bunker would be eliminated before any air war commenced, I assume the MIG-29s anf the remaining airworthy F-14s are protected - would be good BVR target practice for F-22s. Everything else could be wiped-out with 4th gen aircraft (probably F-15's in "missile carrier" config).

So yeah, it would be expensive, but that's purely logistical - has nothing to do with this aircraft or their "air force" as he's implying.

Would their pilots really come up to fight anyways?!

Against an American led coalition, no probably not, at least not if they were smart. Against someone else, who knows.

Very true - which is what I was thinking - although he specifically called out the US in the quote, which was odd.

Looking at their inventory, it doesn't appear that this thing really adds much capability to their air force, unless simply in sheer numbers.

Sheer numbers is also a quality. Calling out the US is probably more propaganda than anything else.

Dutchy wrote:

Against an American led coalition, no probably not, at least not if they were smart. Against someone else, who knows.

It remains to be seen what kind of coalition the US can put together against Iran. I am not convinced that the EU / Europe or Nato is prepared to participate. It will possibly have to be Israel and Saudi Arabia...

estorilm wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

estorilm wrote:

Haha, oops!

I found a good quote from President Hassan at the unveiling ceremony..
"The enemy should see how expensive an invasion of Iran would be," he said. "Why does not the U.S wage a military attack on us? Because of our power."


That's like.. NK-level propaganda BS right there.

Actually no, it is quite sensible. Make it for your enemy too expensive to attack, sure you can attack Iran, but what price are you willing to pay for it?

I understand the concept perfectly, but not coming from Iran - and certainly not in the context of the most powerful military in the world.

It would be expensive, but as long as he's implying that their air power would somehow hinder US success in such a campaign, I remain confused. Anything not in a hardened bunker would be eliminated before any air war commenced, I assume the MIG-29s anf the remaining airworthy F-14s are protected - would be good BVR target practice for F-22s. Everything else could be wiped-out with 4th gen aircraft (probably F-15's in "missile carrier" config).

So yeah, it would be expensive, but that's purely logistical - has nothing to do with this aircraft or their "air force" as he's implying.

Would their pilots really come up to fight anyways?!

Right on!



Mortyman, back off, before some lefty starts asking who / what they would be liberating / defending there anyway! This is simply us against them wrongdo'ers. & they asked for it!

keesje wrote:

"Bird brained" comes to mind here.

amusing
watch the movie:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team_Amer ... rld_Police

keesje wrote:

estorilm wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

Actually no, it is quite sensible. Make it for your enemy too expensive to attack, sure you can attack Iran, but what price are you willing to pay for it?

I understand the concept perfectly, but not coming from Iran - and certainly not in the context of the most powerful military in the world.

It would be expensive, but as long as he's implying that their air power would somehow hinder US success in such a campaign, I remain confused. Anything not in a hardened bunker would be eliminated before any air war commenced, I assume the MIG-29s anf the remaining airworthy F-14s are protected - would be good BVR target practice for F-22s. Everything else could be wiped-out with 4th gen aircraft (probably F-15's in "missile carrier" config).

So yeah, it would be expensive, but that's purely logistical - has nothing to do with this aircraft or their "air force" as he's implying.

Would their pilots really come up to fight anyways?!

Right on!



Mortyman, back off, before some lefty starts asking who / what they would be liberating / defending there anyway! This is simply us against them wrongdo'ers. & they asked for it!

I won't. Why should I?

You all crack me up..

I wasn't trying to come off that way - just trying to figure out the context of what President Hassan said in the ceremony.

Not saying "they won't come up to fight because.. 'MURICA!!!" or something. The same thing happened in Iraq - after the few opening days, they didn't send anything else up - that was my point.

estorilm wrote:

Back on topic.. what's the NATO designation going to be for this thing? TD-1 (target drone 1?)

Mig-28

On a more serious note. Apparently Iran is actually claiming the aircraft has been remanufactured and contains up to 70% Iranian content. The aircraft has also received an avionics upgrade that used some of the cancelled Sino-Iranian work done in the mid 2000s and subsequently taken up by Iranian IAMI.

Reasonable details can be found on this twitter page https://twitter.com/BabakTaghvaee

Ozair wrote:

estorilm wrote:

Back on topic.. what's the NATO designation going to be for this thing? TD-1 (target drone 1?)

Mig-28

I see what you did there.

Ozair wrote:

estorilm wrote:

Back on topic.. what's the NATO designation going to be for this thing? TD-1 (target drone 1?)

Mig-28

Hehehehehehe. You win sir!

keesje wrote:

The question would be did they solve the engine, avionics challenge. If they can completely build and maintain them in the hundreds, it's added value. Do the Chinese produce a suitable engine?

2 x J85-GE-21 engines were stolen from Malaysia a decade ago. Maybe they had some recent valuable improvement of Irans; seventies J85's. Further more avionics, navigation, glass cockpit could be in these new ones.Maybe it's an enhancement of the HESA Saeqeh, although it has a single stabilizer.

They showcased the homemade Awj engine in August 2016. General concensus was that it was based on the J85.

Avionics wise, China has helped them in the past. Something like the JL-10G/SY-80 Falcon PD radar fitted to the J-7G and JL-10A would probably fit pretty well in the nose of the F-5 airframe. Ironically, that radar is a copy of an Israeli one.

Any comparisons to the US is nonsense (and quite often propaganda). The Iranian focus is on Saudi Barbaria.

Mortyman wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

Against an American led coalition, no probably not, at least not if they were smart. Against someone else, who knows.

It remains to be seen what kind of coalition the US can put together against Iran. I am not convinced that the EU / Europe or Nato is prepared to participate. It will possibly have to be Israel and Saudi Arabia...

The Aussies would probably want to join in.

VSMUT wrote:

keesje wrote:

The question would be did they solve the engine, avionics challenge. If they can completely build and maintain them in the hundreds, it's added value. Do the Chinese produce a suitable engine?

2 x J85-GE-21 engines were stolen from Malaysia a decade ago. Maybe they had some recent valuable improvement of Irans; seventies J85's. Further more avionics, navigation, glass cockpit could be in these new ones.Maybe it's an enhancement of the HESA Saeqeh, although it has a single stabilizer.

They showcased the homemade Awj engine in August 2016. General concensus was that it was based on the J85.

Avionics wise, China has helped them in the past. Something like the JL-10G/SY-80 Falcon PD radar fitted to the J-7G and JL-10A would probably fit pretty well in the nose of the F-5 airframe. Ironically, that radar is a copy of an Israeli one.

Any comparisons to the US is nonsense (and quite often propaganda). The Iranian focus is on Saudi Barbaria.

Similar equipemnt / engines they would need for their stealth light fighteri Qaher-313. They have done taxi test but I've heard nothing on flight yet. https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/70131

keesje wrote:

VSMUT wrote:

keesje wrote:

The question would be did they solve the engine, avionics challenge. If they can completely build and maintain them in the hundreds, it's added value. Do the Chinese produce a suitable engine?

2 x J85-GE-21 engines were stolen from Malaysia a decade ago. Maybe they had some recent valuable improvement of Irans; seventies J85's. Further more avionics, navigation, glass cockpit could be in these new ones.Maybe it's an enhancement of the HESA Saeqeh, although it has a single stabilizer.

They showcased the homemade Awj engine in August 2016. General concensus was that it was based on the J85.

Avionics wise, China has helped them in the past. Something like the JL-10G/SY-80 Falcon PD radar fitted to the J-7G and JL-10A would probably fit pretty well in the nose of the F-5 airframe. Ironically, that radar is a copy of an Israeli one.

Any comparisons to the US is nonsense (and quite often propaganda). The Iranian focus is on Saudi Barbaria.

Similar equipemnt / engines they would need for their stealth light fighteri Qaher-313. They have done taxi test but I've heard nothing on flight yet. https://militarywatchmagazine.com/article/70131

The Qaher F-313 is an interesting a/c. I think I have read some semi-professional assessment of this craft which said that the air intakes are all wrong for a fighter and furthermore it is way to small to be a serious fighter with serious capabilities (internal weapons for instance). So I would like to see the first flight of this and even then I doubt that they truly could produce a serious indigenous fighter. As far as I can see, they only produced some reworked 2nd/3rd generation F-5E/F's, basically a 1950-ish design. It would be quite a leap to design and produce a 4th ++ generation fighter, let alone a 5th stealth one with all the bells and whistles on it. Even Russia with all their experience seem to struggle to make the T-50/Su-57 work. But I am ready to be amazed

estorilm wrote:

Actually no, it is quite sensible. Make it for your enemy too expensive to attack, sure you can attack Iran, but what price are you willing to pay for it?

I understand the concept perfectly, but not coming from Iran - and certainly not in the context of the most powerful military in the world.

It would be expensive, but as long as he's implying that their air power would somehow hinder US success in such a campaign, I remain confused. Anything not in a hardened bunker would be eliminated before any air war commenced, I assume the MIG-29s anf the remaining airworthy F-14s are protected - would be good BVR target practice for F-22s. Everything else could be wiped-out with 4th gen aircraft (probably F-15's in "missile carrier" config).

So yeah, it would be expensive, but that's purely logistical - has nothing to do with this aircraft or their "air force" as he's implying.

Would their pilots really come up to fight anyways?![/quote]

Speaking of the F-14 and reverse engineering there's also the Fakour 90.

https://nationalinterest.org/blog/buzz/ ... sile-27292

Surprised China doesn't help them develop something original, especially if they want to create better ties for Oil bargains.

DigitalSea wrote:

Surprised China doesn't help them develop something original, especially if they want to create better ties for Oil bargains.

Any help would be VERY hush as they would face sanctions too. For all we know, they could be...

I don't really think the American ability to smash their air force is in the minds of the Iranian leadership for this program. Usually these things are for internal consumption and propaganda.

"Fighter". What a joke.

You could probably take these out with a handgun out of the windows of a Cessna.

aviationaware wrote:

"Fighter". What a joke.

You could probably take these out with a handgun out of the windows of a Cessna.

Yeah, what a joke. What on earth were those foolish Americans thinking when they developed it?

Seriously, read the article. The Iranians themselves describe it as a trainer and ground-striker.

VSMUT wrote:

aviationaware wrote:

"Fighter". What a joke.

You could probably take these out with a handgun out of the windows of a Cessna.

Yeah, what a joke. What on earth were those foolish Americans thinking when they developed it?

Seriously, read the article. The Iranians themselves describe it as a trainer and ground-striker.

Which, the Iranians need. They don't have much of a trainer aircraft to train new pilots on their fighters. Can't exactly go to war with pilots that have never flown a jet before.

ThePointblank wrote:

VSMUT wrote:

aviationaware wrote:

"Fighter". What a joke.

You could probably take these out with a handgun out of the windows of a Cessna.

Yeah, what a joke. What on earth were those foolish Americans thinking when they developed it?

Seriously, read the article. The Iranians themselves describe it as a trainer and ground-striker.

Which, the Iranians need. They don't have much of a trainer aircraft to train new pilots on their fighters. Can't exactly go to war with pilots that have never flown a jet before.

And not just for training purposes, but logistical too. The current Iranian fleet of ground attack and trainers is a hodge-podge from both sides of the cold war, subject to sanctions or spares being out of production. If the Kowsar truly is an entirely homegrown F-5, then they can reduce the ground attack and training fleets to just a few types. The Revolutionary Guard can finally replace the Su-25s that were donated to Iraq and the Tucano, while the Air Force can get rid of the J-7, remaining Su-25s, Mirage F-1s and worn out F-5s. It will also relieve the F-4, F-14 and MiG-29 fleets.

ThePointblank wrote:

VSMUT wrote:

aviationaware wrote:

"Fighter". What a joke.

You could probably take these out with a handgun out of the windows of a Cessna.

Yeah, what a joke. What on earth were those foolish Americans thinking when they developed it?

Seriously, read the article. The Iranians themselves describe it as a trainer and ground-striker.

Which, the Iranians need. They don't have much of a trainer aircraft to train new pilots on their fighters. Can't exactly go to war with pilots that have never flown a jet before.

It seems the Chinese J-31 fighter is for export contrary to the J-20.

Iran has the money, Trump is distancing the US from Iran & China so this seems increasingly a future scenario.