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Ozair
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US military interest in cargo bases in space

Sun Aug 05, 2018 9:34 pm

I found this news article to be quite interesting albeit a little unexpected.

Cargo Bases in Space: Air Force General Wants Them Within a Decade

Within a decade, U.S. troops may get some supplies from prepositioned stocks in space — if the Air Force’s mobility commander can make his vision come true.

Gen. Carlton D. Everhart II is already talking with SpaceX and other space-services companies about that and other space-related initiatives, the leader of Air Force Mobility Command told reporters at a Defense Writers Group breakfast Thursday. “What happens if we preposition cargo in space? I don’t have to use terrestrial means, I don’t have to use water means. I can just position in space and have a re-supplying vehicle come up and come back down. I don’t have to have people there, I just have to have the cargo there. Automated loading systems, those types of things,” Everhart said.

Where, exactly, would these orbiting supply dumps be?

“This is me thinking out loud,” he said.“Low earth orbit? Fine. But I’m telling you if the commercial industry is going to launch 5,000 satellites, I don’t know if it’s going to work…It’s cluttered up there. So, is it…the halfway point between the Earth and the moon? …Maybe we can put it in GEO…I don’t know, I’m going to ask the industry…If you’ve got ideas, I’ll take them.”

Everhart said the Air Force’s space-cargo missions could be modeled on SpaceX’s deliveries to the International Space Station.
The cargo “can be anything. Obviously, if it’s food supplies, they go up there, doesn’t stay fresh. Water, that’s got to be worked through. But if you’re looking at materials, I don’t want to say dunnage, but things like that can survive in space,” he said. “Could be hardware, could be a Humvee…I’m willing to stick anything up there.”

Everhart said he believed developing space technology was pivotal for the future of the Air Mobility Command.
“It’s in the infancy stages. I’ve already written white papers, I’ve talked to Gen. Jay Raymond [the commander] at Air Force Space Command, saying ‘I want to partner,’” he said. “We’re starting to spin this up pretty good. Because what happens is, if we don’t do this, and we stay within the air domain, Air Mobility Command will become irrelevant.”

The general said the Air Force must move swiftly.

“I think in the next five years we can be right in on that concept stage,” he said. “Actual routine, probably within the next 10.”
Everhart said the Air Force would likely propose major investments in space cargo in the next Program Objective Memorandum.
“I would like to introduce that, or at least start getting the initial resources done in the next POM cycle. You know me, I’d like to get it in 2020. Honestly 2022 is too late,” he said. “I want it now. I’ve got to get these concepts now … This is the avenue for the future. If I can get it introduced and start the concepts right now, I’ll do it with my own money, I’m going to do it.” “The bottom line is it’s not soon enough,” he added.

Everhart stressed that a partnership with industry and the initiative of younger members of the Air Force would be the key to pioneering in space, and expressed an openness to exploring different technology and concepts.

“The reason why I do this is because the young kids glom onto it,” he said. “The young airmen, they’ll glom onto it and all the sudden it starts building a fever, and the next thing you know there’s a concept, the next thing you know they say, ‘we can do this, we can build it and they will come,’ and that’s what happens. It’s pretty exciting. If you look at the things we’re doing in innovation right now, I let, and this is my term, I released the kraken. What I mean by that is I released young airmen to go to the laboratories and tell us what you want, and if it’s a viable concept then we’ll put money to it and we’ll go get it made.”

https://www.defenseone.com/technology/2 ... e_today_nl

Certainly an interesting concept, from a military perspective the US has prepositioned equipment for many years so the concept is not really different, just the location of the preposition. Fiscally I don't think it makes a lot of sense even with the reduced costs of SpaceX and other companies.

Would be good to see a test case of how this was expected to work, is the intent initially to support special forces with ammo drops or is Mobility Command looking deeper or seeking perhaps support for USMC ashore to reduce the burden of resupply. Given the emergence of potential anti-satellite weapons and higher powered ground lasers would this even work or simply be too easy a target? This also seems tailor made for a new Space Force to manage...
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: US military interest in cargo bases in space

Mon Aug 06, 2018 6:30 am

Supply earth-based troops via space?

One word: Insane.
 
WIederling
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Re: US military interest in cargo bases in space

Mon Aug 06, 2018 7:41 am

AirlineCritic wrote:
Supply earth-based troops via space?

One word: Insane.


bah

DD ammunitions. ( as in Direkt Delivery :-)
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: US military interest in cargo bases in space

Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:05 pm

One Russian or Chinese a-sat launch and no more space ammo dump.
 
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Seabear
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Re: US military interest in cargo bases in space

Tue Aug 07, 2018 5:43 pm

Munitions in space... what could possibly go wrong??
 
Andre3K
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Re: US military interest in cargo bases in space

Wed Aug 08, 2018 12:39 am

I guess the crazy doesn't end in the White House.
 
Insertnamehere
Posts: 387
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Re: US military interest in cargo bases in space

Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:00 am

I mean when your budget is basically a blank check why not go too insane lengths for the hell of it.
 
AngMoh
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Re: US military interest in cargo bases in space

Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:20 am

Insertnamehere wrote:
I mean when your budget is basically a blank check why not go too insane lengths for the hell of it.


Reminds me of someone who worked on this kind of stuff in the Reagan area. Any project with contained the magic words "star wars" was funded. They had a blast blowing up stuff on an unlimited budget. Nothing ever worked but as every follow up proposal contained the words "star wars" the money kept on flowing until there was a change in leadership. He claimed it was the best and most fun time of his life.
 
DigitalSea
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Re: US military interest in cargo bases in space

Tue Aug 21, 2018 4:46 am

AngMoh wrote:

Reminds me of someone who worked on this kind of stuff in the Reagan area. Any project with contained the magic words "star wars" was funded. They had a blast blowing up stuff on an unlimited budget. Nothing ever worked but as every follow up proposal contained the words "star wars" the money kept on flowing until there was a change in leadership. He claimed it was the best and most fun time of his life.


Just a side note, R&D projects can claim to be unsuccessful or that there is a "loss of interest" in the public spectrum but go black. Happens all the time.
 
tommy1808
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Re: US military interest in cargo bases in space

Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:19 am

TWA772LR wrote:
One Russian or Chinese a-sat launch and no more space ammo dump.


And probably no more access to space for anyone for a long time.
That would be the about softest target in the history of military equipment.

Best regards
Thomas
 
mham001
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Re: US military interest in cargo bases in space

Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:09 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
One Russian or Chinese a-sat launch and no more space ammo dump.


Why would it have to be defenseless?

Which got me thinking about the reaction from the action of a gun in space. Which quickly went over my head - so, lasers.
 
WIederling
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Re: US military interest in cargo bases in space

Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:03 am

mham001 wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
One Russian or Chinese a-sat launch and no more space ammo dump.


Why would it have to be defenseless?

Which got me thinking about the reaction from the action of a gun in space. Which quickly went over my head - so, lasers.


earth orbit space warfare has a good chance of turning into universal denial.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kessler_syndrome

Currently the US is a magnitude more dependent on space access
for their power projection MoO than any other nation.

return to Bush43 times:
in simple words what Bush announced at the time was : "Space is ours".
what the Chinese A-sat launch and destruct offered was : "Think again".
 
NBGSkyGod
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Re: US military interest in cargo bases in space

Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:33 pm

I see this thread, and all I can think about is that air drop with the poorly attached Humvees falling to earth. It would be epic to watch a Humvee plummet from outer space.
 
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trpmb6
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Re: US military interest in cargo bases in space

Thu Aug 23, 2018 4:58 pm

NBGSkyGod wrote:
I see this thread, and all I can think about is that air drop with the poorly attached Humvees falling to earth. It would be epic to watch a Humvee plummet from outer space.


All I can think about is the videos from call of duty when someone calls in a care package and it smashes the dude under it who was completely oblivious to it coming in.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: US military interest in cargo bases in space

Thu Aug 23, 2018 7:10 pm

For small items, a land base ballistic missile delivery system would be more economical. You do not have to spend the energy to get the hardware to orbit.

Say you have a platoon on a classified mission that is running out of essentials (ammo, battery, medical etc.), you can get the necessary items to them with a ballistic payload with some sort of terminal guidance in terms of a GPS or radio telemetry guided glider/drone. Space base would be quicker . . . but by not more than 1/2 an hour.

bt
 
Ozair
Topic Author
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Re: US military interest in cargo bases in space

Thu Aug 23, 2018 9:22 pm

NBGSkyGod wrote:
I see this thread, and all I can think about is that air drop with the poorly attached Humvees falling to earth. It would be epic to watch a Humvee plummet from outer space.

Just a point of note as I assume you are talking about the German training exercise they certainly weren't poorly attached, a US Army soldier has been convicted of deliberately cutting parachute straps to make the vehicles fall.

A Germany-based cavalry scout was convicted Wednesday of destruction of government property and making a false official statement for his role in a botched Humvee air drop that destroyed three of the vehicles during an April 2016 training exercise.

A judge found Sgt. John Skipper, who was in charge of verifying that the parachutes were properly rigged, had intentionally cut their straps, causing hundreds of thousands of dollars in damage, according to a 7th Army release.

https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-arm ... -air-drop/

It certainly is not out of the realm of possibility that equipment pre-positioned in space could face a similar issue though.
 
WIederling
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Re: US military interest in cargo bases in space

Fri Aug 24, 2018 3:41 pm

NBGSkyGod wrote:
I see this thread, and all I can think about is that air drop with the poorly attached Humvees falling to earth. It would be epic to watch a Humvee plummet from outer space.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWMPe3wF9jQ
 
tommy1808
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Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: US military interest in cargo bases in space

Sat Aug 25, 2018 10:45 am

mham001 wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
One Russian or Chinese a-sat launch and no more space ammo dump.


Why would it have to be defenseless?


How to you defend against a metric ton of small ball bearings released on the other side of the planet?

It's space, you can easily hit your target at 15+ km/s, from as far out as you like or with the whole planet between you and a target, and since even a small projectile slices though whatever armor you can lunch you can lunch more projectiles than can be handled.

WIederling wrote:
mham001 wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
One Russian or Chinese a-sat launch and no more space ammo dump.


Why would it have to be defenseless?

Which got me thinking about the reaction from the action of a gun in space. Which quickly went over my head - so, lasers.


earth orbit space warfare has a good chance of turning into universal denial.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kessler_syndrome

Currently the US is a magnitude more dependent on space access
for their power projection MoO than any other nation.

return to Bush43 times:
in simple words what Bush announced at the time was : "Space is ours".
what the Chinese A-sat launch and destruct offered was : "Think again".


Exactly. Just about any nation with lunch capabilities can deny space to everyone for quite a while when they don't care about their own access.

Space warfare is nonsense.

Best regards
Thomas
 
WIederling
Posts: 10043
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: US military interest in cargo bases in space

Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:30 am

tommy1808 wrote:
Exactly. Just about any nation with lunch capabilities can deny space to everyone for quite a while when they don't care about their own access.

Space warfare is nonsense.


CarpetCulture.

In a way similar to early internet culture.
Strife in the subculture was kept in check by way of
"make a real ruckus and the owners would come down on the wider subculture all around".

Only the participants then were much brighter and realized their cooperative needs.
Not a place for brinkmanship.
 
Alfons
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Re: US military interest in cargo bases in space

Sun Aug 26, 2018 11:56 am

tommy1808 wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
One Russian or Chinese a-sat launch and no more space ammo dump.


And probably no more access to space for anyone for a long time.
That would be the about softest target in the history of military equipment.

Best regards
Thomas


Except this soft target is protected with anti-sam systems, like on earth. Just maybe with lasers, instead of rockets.

Alfons
 
WIederling
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Re: US military interest in cargo bases in space

Sun Aug 26, 2018 5:24 pm

Alfons wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
TWA772LR wrote:
One Russian or Chinese a-sat launch and no more space ammo dump.


And probably no more access to space for anyone for a long time.
That would be the about softest target in the history of military equipment.

Best regards
Thomas


Except this soft target is protected with anti-sam systems, like on earth. Just maybe with lasers, instead of rockets.


Irrelevant.

It makes no difference if you destroy the target or the attacking object or both.
At some point you get an avalanche of debris caused by the increased number of debris items hitting other assets
creating more parts that hit even more assets......
 
tommy1808
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Re: US military interest in cargo bases in space

Mon Aug 27, 2018 5:37 am

WIederling wrote:
Alfons wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:

And probably no more access to space for anyone for a long time.
That would be the about softest target in the history of military equipment.

Best regards
Thomas


Except this soft target is protected with anti-sam systems, like on earth. Just maybe with lasers, instead of rockets.


Irrelevant.

It makes no difference if you destroy the target or the attacking object or both.
At some point you get an avalanche of debris caused by the increased number of debris items hitting other assets
creating more parts that hit even more assets......


:checkmark:

Unless you get them in the boost phase, hitting them pretty much just increases the chance to being hit, even if it is not with the full force of the whole impactor. But if you fire retrograde, so the debris comes in at 15+ km/s you just need a pebble. One ounce of debris gives you more that 3MJ. That is enough to penetrate a light tank, and almost two pounds worth of TNT.

Alfons seems to forget that on Earth there is an Atmosphere slowing things down once you break them up. In Space nothing slows you down...

best regards
Thomas

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