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estorilm
Posts: 517
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:07 am

Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:41 pm

SuperiorPilotMe wrote:
RetiredWeasel wrote:
SuperiorPilotMe wrote:

You really need to stop giving that site views let alone keep using it for evidence and the basis of topics like this. He has zero authority, training or military experience whatsoever. He is the American Carlo Kopp, a fanboy, a Boeing fanboy at that. He thinks a F-15 with a KC-46 can bomb the whole world. Also he writes really creepy articles about women in uniform like it’s his fetish. Like in a sexual way.


You've got to be kidding on your last observation regarding that blog. Right? If somehow you're getting that vibe out of Rogoway's blog, then it says more about you than his articles. I've been reading him for over 2 years and although he misses frequently on accuracy, I never, never got any 'creepy' sexual connotation from him. Really don't know where you're coming from on your 'creepy' observation


Nice job sidestepping the issue I’ll take it as a tacit admission that you agree Rogoway has a spotty track record on his “facts.”

bikerthai wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
The electronics required to slave multiple uav’ s to an ac is not trivial but it is available now. Concept of operations and software are the gating items.


I do not dispute slaving UAV to an AC. My point is as of now, there is no UAV that can carry 22 missiles. The current slate of UAV are too slow to keep up with a strike package and does not have the same missile capacity. The next slate of UAV at more stealth like and also does not have the same capacity (perhaps with the exception of the new bomber.)

bt

This has literally nothing to do with F-15s. Another graduate from the school of Rogoway military journalism!

Agreed - and my general question here remains the same - why are we worried about capacity? No one is disputing the fact that this aircraft will light up like a Christmas tree on any modern 4th gen radar set, so stealth / penetration is out of the question.
If you need a bomb truck, USE A BOMBER!

Conversely (and the angle I think the USAF and indeed this entire thread was taking initially) is that they're just trying to replace the FIGHTERS (C/Ds) from an A2A-capability standpoint. That's what they're saying at least. I still think it's a politically-corrupt "freebie" contract to keep Boeing in the domestic fighter market.

35's are coming on-line faster than 15's are being retired, and additionally 35s will also be coming on-line faster than any 15X does. Doesn't that basically sum everything up? Keep doing exactly what we are doing. Maybe spend some of that $$$ fast-tracking the re-fit of the prototype / test F-22s, and on production / FAL / supplier efficiency studies for the F-35.
 
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bikerthai
Posts: 2624
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:08 pm

texl1649 wrote:
I'm a bit mystified at the offense of linking to Rogoway but whatever, feel free to ignore any future links, SuperiorPilotMe.


I'm with you. I guess with today everyone's a skeptic. People do not believe journalists any more, even if this journalist got quotes correctly from people who are involved with the subject matter. Here in Washington State there are still people skeptical in immunization ever though we currently have over thirty cases of the measles being spread through unimunized children. :roll:

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:23 pm

estorilm

Please read the various articles quoting the Airforce General on why he's buying the '15 even though if he had his rather he would buy only 35's.

If you foist this on political corruption, then the argument goes nowhere, as we here can not prove anything. If political coruption is the reason, then it would also spread to Israel as they also bought new F-35 and F-15's.

If keeping a second fighter line open was a reason, then to some it may be a defensible strategic reason. Placing that motive as political corruption is just a quick excuse from continuing the debate on the merit of the buy.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
Ozair
Posts: 3360
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Thu Feb 14, 2019 9:27 pm

I've put it here given the direct reference to the F-15X in the letter. Obviously Cornyn and Cruz are from Texas and therefore have a strong interest in preserving F-35 production and jobs but it is hard to deny what they are recommending.

Senators call on Trump to fully fund F-35

Sens. John Cornyn (R-TX), Ted Cruz (R-TX), Susan Collins (R-ME), Marco Rubio (R-FL) and Lisa Murkowski (R-AK) have sent a letter to President Trump urging him to support the current funding schedule for the F-35 as opposed to investing in what they call the "outdated, fourth-generation F-15X."

"We are extremely concerned that, over the last few years, the [Defense Department] has underfunded the F-35 Program and relied on Congress to fund increases in production, sustainment, and modernization," the letter states. "In order to meet the overmatch and lethality goals laid out in the National Security Strategy, the DOD needs to make these investments in the F-35 to affordably deliver and operate this fifth-generation fighter fleet. The F-35 is the most affordable, lethal, and survivable air dominance fighter, and now is the time to double down on the program."

"In order to ensure the United States service members are equipped with the most lethal aircraft capable of operating in the modern battlefield, we request your support and the support of the DOD in investing our defense funds in proven fifth-generation technology -- like the F-35 -- rather than technology that will be outdated before it even rolls off the production line," the senators write.

https://insidedefense.com/insider/senat ... -fund-f-35
 
bobinthecar
Posts: 10
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2018 3:16 am

Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:18 am

I've put it here given the direct reference to the F-15X in the letter. Obviously Cornyn and Cruz are from Texas and therefore have a strong interest in preserving F-35 production and jobs but it is hard to deny what they are recommending.


Replacing old ANG F-15s with new build rather than rebuild F-15s is not going to in any way detract from the F-35 buy. Its going to be cheaper in the long run to buy new upgraded F-15s rather than refurbish old ones. Its going to be cheaper in the long run to slot F-15s in to the ANG units rather than F-35s since the infrastructure and support for the F-15 is already there. If you replace F-15s with F-35s in those units all the pilots, all the maintainers have to be retrained and all the associated ground support equipment and depot stocks have to be bought. An F-15X will be more than adequate and in some ways due to superior speed and altitude, a better interceptor than the F-35 for defending airspace. The F-15X can also work in conjunction with the F-35 and act as a spear carrier and dog fighter in support of them. Lastly, I am not entirely sure that F-35 production can be ramped up fast enough to satisfy the additional demand.
 
Ozair
Posts: 3360
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:36 am

bobinthecar wrote:
I've put it here given the direct reference to the F-15X in the letter. Obviously Cornyn and Cruz are from Texas and therefore have a strong interest in preserving F-35 production and jobs but it is hard to deny what they are recommending.


Replacing old ANG F-15s with new build rather than rebuild F-15s is not going to in any way detract from the F-35 buy. Its going to be cheaper in the long run to buy new upgraded F-15s rather than refurbish old ones. Its going to be cheaper in the long run to slot F-15s in to the ANG units rather than F-35s since the infrastructure and support for the F-15 is already there. If you replace F-15s with F-35s in those units all the pilots, all the maintainers have to be retrained and all the associated ground support equipment and depot stocks have to be bought. An F-15X will be more than adequate and in some ways due to superior speed and altitude, a better interceptor than the F-35 for defending airspace. The F-15X can also work in conjunction with the F-35 and act as a spear carrier and dog fighter in support of them. Lastly, I am not entirely sure that F-35 production can be ramped up fast enough to satisfy the additional demand.

The thread is full of info on the costs to refit the existing F-15s and some reasonable assessment of why the F-15X slips into the infrastructure. There has to be a point though at which the existing infrastructure needs upgrading anyway, the threat environment the aircraft will operate in moves beyond that in which the F-15X can contribute, the cost to integrate and sustain the F-35 is lower than the F-15X and the USAF acknowledges that they won't get a useful life out of the F-15X airframe.

I get, to an extent, the need to replace the C/D fleet and it makes sense that a new F-15X can plug into that existing infrastructure but I wonder how much more funding it would require to convert those units over to F-35 and that that extra funding is probably a more worthy investment.

Given the US is now signalling a reduced defence budget this acquisition could well be the low hanging fruit that doesn't make the cut.
 
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bikerthai
Posts: 2624
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Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:08 pm

I suppose the timing and allocation of funding is what make the calculation hard to wrap your brain around. You have to juggle all the balls at the same time and figure where they will be years from now. In the long run it may be better to put the 12bil in the 35. But if you can not absorb that much money or train enough pilots in the short run, you risk a capacity gap.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
estorilm
Posts: 517
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:07 am

Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:19 pm

bikerthai wrote:
estorilm

Please read the various articles quoting the Airforce General on why he's buying the '15 even though if he had his rather he would buy only 35's.

If you foist this on political corruption, then the argument goes nowhere, as we here can not prove anything. If political coruption is the reason, then it would also spread to Israel as they also bought new F-35 and F-15's.

If keeping a second fighter line open was a reason, then to some it may be a defensible strategic reason. Placing that motive as political corruption is just a quick excuse from continuing the debate on the merit of the buy.

bt

Glad I saw your post as you didn't quote me. ;)
I'm agreeing with you - obviously none of us can PROVE political corruption, but I believe my posts speak for themselves when citing the production costs, capabilities of existing fighters, a limited budget, and the fact that by the time this production run is finished, these 4th gen aircraft will be relegated to basic tasks as their suitability in the modern battlespace is seriously questionable.

Personally it just didn't add up to me, and the entire program came out of left-field with no warning - it does seem like the US govt. is trying to throw Boeing a bone. That's all I was saying.

Also the F-15 line is already open for other countries, and we've got super hornets being built as well. The production lines aren't at risk. At some point, we don't need to have production lines remain open for domestic fighters anyways.

Again - I'm fine with the added capability, PROVIDED we can get them ASAP. This is where the corruption comes in, as the fine print seems to state that we get these things 5+ years out, at a painfully ridiculous production rate of ~13/year or something lasting 10+ years. THAT right there is purely throwing a bone to Boeing. Does nothing for out National defense strategy, and by the time we're done acquiring them, they're seen as fossils.
 
estorilm
Posts: 517
Joined: Fri Jan 16, 2009 3:07 am

Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:24 pm

Ozair wrote:
I've put it here given the direct reference to the F-15X in the letter. Obviously Cornyn and Cruz are from Texas and therefore have a strong interest in preserving F-35 production and jobs but it is hard to deny what they are recommending.

Senators call on Trump to fully fund F-35

Sens. John Cornyn (R-TX), Ted Cruz (R-TX), Susan Collins (R-ME), Marco Rubio (R-FL) and Lisa Murkowski (R-AK) have sent a letter to President Trump urging him to support the current funding schedule for the F-35 as opposed to investing in what they call the "outdated, fourth-generation F-15X."

"We are extremely concerned that, over the last few years, the [Defense Department] has underfunded the F-35 Program and relied on Congress to fund increases in production, sustainment, and modernization," the letter states. "In order to meet the overmatch and lethality goals laid out in the National Security Strategy, the DOD needs to make these investments in the F-35 to affordably deliver and operate this fifth-generation fighter fleet. The F-35 is the most affordable, lethal, and survivable air dominance fighter, and now is the time to double down on the program."

"In order to ensure the United States service members are equipped with the most lethal aircraft capable of operating in the modern battlefield, we request your support and the support of the DOD in investing our defense funds in proven fifth-generation technology -- like the F-35 -- rather than technology that will be outdated before it even rolls off the production line," the senators write.

https://insidedefense.com/insider/senat ... -fund-f-35

OMG THIS! ^^

Seriously though, there is a point here. You're already fully invested, the only different is staggering things and drawing them out for decades is costing the program MORE money in the long term. This plane isn't going anywhere, especially with the capabilities we now see with the Block-3F - just spend the money and get it over with. The sooner the production orders are fulfilled, the better.
 
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bikerthai
Posts: 2624
Joined: Wed Apr 28, 2010 1:45 pm

Re: USAF Considering New Build F-15X

Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:40 pm

estorilm wrote:
THAT right there is purely throwing a bone to Boeing. Does nothing for out National defense strategy, and by the time we're done acquiring them, they're seen as fossils.


If they keep the fossils long enough to keep LM honest and continue to drive down the cost of the F-35, then it would be money well spent. If one is skeptical of the F-15X, then one must also be cynical enough to believe that as soon as the purchase contract for the F-15X is shelved and the F-15 line shuts down, we will find some new issue with the F-35 that will require significant amount of money to fix.

Why not throw Boeing a bone, even though they really don't need it, you've been feeding enough steaks to LM to have a whole fleet of F-35 by now :drunk:

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
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