https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... 6s-450130/
Slovakia will purchase 14 new Block 70 F-16s.
Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
Updated: DoD awards Lockheed Martin Slovak F-16V fighter contract
Last edited by SQ22 on Fri Aug 02, 2019 7:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Title updated
Reason: Title updated
Re: Slovakia to purchase Block 70 F-16s
Great choice. The F-16 lives on. The number of aircraft ordered is quite low though. Also kind of sad that the venerable MiG-29 will be retired.
Re: Slovakia to purchase Block 70 F-16s
Ironic, considering that the MiG-29 had its first flight after the F-16.
Re: Slovakia to purchase Block 70 F-16s
JetBuddy wrote:Great choice. The F-16 lives on. The number of aircraft ordered is quite low though. Also kind of sad that the venerable MiG-29 will be retired.
I'd say the quantity is on par with a country that size and for the mission.
Re: Slovakia to purchase Block 70 F-16s
This is the aircraft the USAF should still be purchasing In the hundreds
instead of the F35
A proven, rugged and flexible design that’s been steadily updated
and is still a fearsome weapon, in fact more than ever
instead of the F35
A proven, rugged and flexible design that’s been steadily updated
and is still a fearsome weapon, in fact more than ever
Re: Slovakia to purchase Block 70 F-16s
mxaxai wrote:Ironic, considering that the MiG-29 had its first flight after the F-16.
The MiG-29 is still being made in it's the latest guise: MiG-35.
Re: Slovakia to purchase Block 70 F-16s
Max Q wrote:This is the aircraft the USAF should still be purchasing In the hundreds
instead of the F35
A proven, rugged and flexible design that’s been steadily updated
and is still a fearsome weapon, in fact more than ever
The F-16 is an incredible machine, and the latest blocks are potent fighters, but it can’t match the payload, range, and full capabilities of the F-35, especially once the F-35 gets full block 4 upgrades. The price of the F-35 is also steadily coming down to F-16 levels.
Re: Slovakia to purchase Block 70 F-16s
tjh8402 wrote:Max Q wrote:This is the aircraft the USAF should still be purchasing In the hundreds
instead of the F35
A proven, rugged and flexible design that’s been steadily updated
and is still a fearsome weapon, in fact more than ever
The F-16 is an incredible machine, and the latest blocks are potent fighters, but it can’t match the payload, range, and full capabilities of the F-35, especially once the F-35 gets full block 4 upgrades. The price of the F-35 is also steadily coming down to F-16 levels.
The F16 kills the F35 in a fight
So none of that other stuff really matters
Re: Slovakia to purchase Block 70 F-16s
Just goes to show that 4+ generation jets are still very relevant. The F-16 was well ahead of its time and is truly a fantastic piece of machinary.
Re: Slovakia to purchase Block 70 F-16s
Slug71 wrote:Just goes to show that 4+ generation jets are still very relevant. The F-16 was well ahead of its time and is truly a fantastic piece of machinary.
It really is, so well designed and flexible that it has stayed well ahead of obsolescence, with the exception of stealth
which is only a factor until you dominate the airspace in a battle
The F16 could go on for decades longer
If the USAF had been granted the funding to buy the 800+ F22’s they needed then updated F16’s would have been the perfect
lower cost supplement, as they were a superb partner to the F15 Eagle
Instead all three services are stuck with a massively expensive lemon in the shape of the ‘jack of all trades master of none’ F35
It was supposed to save money, as it is building those 800 F22’s would have been cheaper
Re: Slovakia to purchase Block 70 F-16s
Max Q wrote:tjh8402 wrote:Max Q wrote:This is the aircraft the USAF should still be purchasing In the hundreds
instead of the F35
A proven, rugged and flexible design that’s been steadily updated
and is still a fearsome weapon, in fact more than ever
The F-16 is an incredible machine, and the latest blocks are potent fighters, but it can’t match the payload, range, and full capabilities of the F-35, especially once the F-35 gets full block 4 upgrades. The price of the F-35 is also steadily coming down to F-16 levels.
The F16 kills the F35 in a fight
So none of that other stuff really matters
It doesn’t kill an F-35 in a fight. If you’re referring to the story from a few years ago about an F-16 beating an F-35 in a dogfight, that’s been debunked.
Re: Slovakia to purchase Block 70 F-16s
tjh8402 wrote:Max Q wrote:tjh8402 wrote:
The F-16 is an incredible machine, and the latest blocks are potent fighters, but it can’t match the payload, range, and full capabilities of the F-35, especially once the F-35 gets full block 4 upgrades. The price of the F-35 is also steadily coming down to F-16 levels.
The F16 kills the F35 in a fight
So none of that other stuff really matters
It doesn’t kill an F-35 in a fight. If you’re referring to the story from a few years ago about an F-16 beating an F-35 in a dogfight, that’s been debunked.
I think it depends a lot on the pilot, but I've spoke to a couple of pilots (at Sentry Eagle last year) and they both said the Viper is more agile will out maneuver the F-35. The F-35 has a BVR advantage though.
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- Planeflyer
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Re: Slovakia to purchase Block 70 F-16s
The US must assume worst case which means contested airspace. F16 will not last long in such airspace.
This is not 1980. Every nation developing new AC are designing in 5th or 6 th gen capabilities so while 4 th gen craft have some peacetime utility they have zero deterrence and zero utility in any sort of nest peer scenario.
Good looking plane for air shows
This is not 1980. Every nation developing new AC are designing in 5th or 6 th gen capabilities so while 4 th gen craft have some peacetime utility they have zero deterrence and zero utility in any sort of nest peer scenario.
Good looking plane for air shows
Re: Slovakia to purchase Block 70 F-16s
tjh8402 wrote:It doesn’t kill an F-35 in a fight. If you’re referring to the story from a few years ago about an F-16 beating an F-35 in a dogfight, that’s been debunked.
I wouldn’t waste your time with this. The facts have been provided to him multiple times…
For the F-16 Blk 70 it is interesting to note the difference in contract price between the FMS case, US$2.9 billion, and the signed deal, reportedly US$1.3 billion, with Slovakia. That is likely the flyaway cost of approximately US$92 million per aircraft.
FMS case details
The State Department has made a determination approving a possible Foreign Military Sale to Slovakia of F-16 Block 70/72 V configuration aircraft for an estimated cost of $2.91 billion. The Defense Security Cooperation Agency delivered the required certification notifying Congress of this possible sale on April 3, 2018.
The Slovak Republic has requested a possible sale of fourteen (14) F-16 Block 70/72 V configuration aircraft; up to sixteen (16) F-16 F110 General Electric or F100 Pratt & Whitney engines (MDE); fifteen (15) M61 A1 Vulcan 20mm Guns (MDE); sixteen (16) APG-83 Active Electronically Scanned Array (AESA) Radars (MDE); fourteen (14) Modular Mission Computers (MDE); fourteen (14) LINK-16 (MIDS-JTRS) secure communication systems (MDE); sixteen (16) LN260 EGI Embedded Global Positioning System Inertial Navigation Systems (EGI) (MDE); fourteen (14) Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing Systems (MDE); fourteen (14) Improved Programmable Display Generators (iPDGs) (MDE); thirty (30) AIM-120C7 air-to-air missiles, one hundred (100) AIM-9X air-to¬ air missiles; twelve (12) AIM-9X Captive Air Training Missiles, two (2) AIM-120C7, twenty-four (24) AIM-9X additional guidance units; two hundred twenty-four (224) each Computer Control Groups and Airfoil Groups for GBU-12 Paveway II 5001b Guided Bomb Kits; twenty (20) Enhanced Computer Control Groups for Enhanced Paveway II (GBU-49); one hundred fifty (150) KMU-572F/B Guidance Kits for Joint Direct Attack Munition (JDAM) 5001b Guided Bomb (GBU-38); sixty (60) LAU-129 Guided – Missile Launchers; thirty-six (36) MK-82 or BLU-111 500 lb Inert Fill Bomb; four hundred (400) MK-82 or BLU-111 500 lb Bomb Bodies; four hundred (400) FMU-152 Joint Programmable Fuzes; and six (6) AN/AAQ-33 Sniper Pods. Also included are fourteen (14) Joint Helmet Mounted Cueing System II; fourteen (14) AN/ALQ-213 Electronic Warfare Management Systems; sixteen (16) AN/ALQ-211 Advanced Integrated Defensive Electronic Warfare Suites; sixteen (16) AN/ALE-47 Countermeasure Dispensers; Advanced Identification Friend or Foe (AIFF), Secure Communications and Cryptographic Appliques; Joint Mission Planning System (JMPS); ground training device (flight simulator); Electronic Combat International Security Assistance Program (ECISAP) support; software and support; facilities and construction support; spares and repair/replace parts; personnel training and training equipment; publications and technical documentation; missile containers; DSU-38A/B Illuminated Target Detector (GBU-54); munition support and test equipment; aircraft and munition integration and test support; studies and surveys; U.S. Government and contractor technical, engineering and logistical support services; and other related elements of logistics and program support. The estimated total cost is $2.91 billion.
http://www.dsca.mil/major-arms-sales/sl ... n-aircraft
We don’t have a lot of details yet on what options have been selected, including which engine they will go for, and the actual number of weapons and support delivered with the contract. I think it is likely they will opt for the GE engine given this was selected by Bahrain and has been the main engine for export F-16s for a number of years now. I have also seen reports that engines with thrust upwards of 35k are now available from both manufacturers although I doubt Slovakia will take up that non-standard option.
This and other recent sales of the F-16 are impressive given the primary customer, the USAF, hasn’t taken a new build F-16 since 2004… The program has lived on a lower but maintainable production rate for a long time and it appears that Grenville will now continue to operate the F-16 line for quite a few more years. I don’t see too many other sales on the horizon but the upgrade work will keep LM in business for a long time to come. The elephant in the room is also the continued dominance of the F-16 in both used and new versions over the Gripen.
Re: Slovakia to purchase Block 70 F-16s
Max Q wrote:The F16 kills the F35 in a fight
So none of that other stuff really matters
I would suggest taking your uneducated comments to the local pub where they belong.
The Super Hornet has the most kills of alien space craft in movies. The USAF should be buying Super Hornets as they are clearly a 7th generation aircraft.
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- LightningZ71
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Re: Slovakia to purchase Block 70 F-16s
When will the myth of the F16 die? With any sort of usable mission payload, the F-35 out handles the F-16 in almost every area of the flight envelope. To have comparable range, the F-16 needs CFTs and external tanks. To have a reasonable bomb load, the F-16 will have multiple external stores stations occupied. To include A2A stores, it has to have even more external stations occupied. The same mission sees the F-35 carry its fuel internally, a pair of A2A missiles, and a pair of bombs internally. That's a clean F-35 vs. a very dirty F-16. If the F-16 wants to regain some maneuverability, it must eject its strike stores and tanks, rendering it useless for its mission.
If you're talking about just two planes meeting on patrol missions for A2A purposes, you still have the F-16 with CFTs, external tanks, and 4 external stations with A2A munitions to have comparable range and loadout to an F-35 with the same 4 A2A missiles. So, does the F-16 then dump it's tanks and then attempt to maneuver with a clean F-35?
I will grant anyone that, when head to head, the lighter, late model F-16s will outmaneuver the F-35 when both are running just 30 minutes of fuel and neither has any external stores. But, then, what are you really doing then? What mission are you trying to complete there? The F-16 still needs to get to its targets in contested air space. If it can be easily spotted and engaged, how often will it get there? The F-35 has the ability to get more places without being engaged. And, once the airspace is clear of SAMs and agressor fighters, the F-35 can be reconfigured to carry external stores and be just as capable or more so than even the most modern F-16s in being a ground strike aircraft.
If you're talking about just two planes meeting on patrol missions for A2A purposes, you still have the F-16 with CFTs, external tanks, and 4 external stations with A2A munitions to have comparable range and loadout to an F-35 with the same 4 A2A missiles. So, does the F-16 then dump it's tanks and then attempt to maneuver with a clean F-35?
I will grant anyone that, when head to head, the lighter, late model F-16s will outmaneuver the F-35 when both are running just 30 minutes of fuel and neither has any external stores. But, then, what are you really doing then? What mission are you trying to complete there? The F-16 still needs to get to its targets in contested air space. If it can be easily spotted and engaged, how often will it get there? The F-35 has the ability to get more places without being engaged. And, once the airspace is clear of SAMs and agressor fighters, the F-35 can be reconfigured to carry external stores and be just as capable or more so than even the most modern F-16s in being a ground strike aircraft.
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- Planeflyer
- Posts: 1651
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Re: Slovakia to purchase Block 70 F-16s
The F16 is but only one myth. Every 4th gen AC are target drones in a world with
Aesa.
Aesa.
Re: Slovakia to purchase Block 70 F-16s
Order has been formally lodged with LM for the Slovakian F-16Vs. I expect the cost of US$800 million likely doesn’t include the engine or perhaps the radar and other associated systems.
DoD awards Lockheed Martin Slovak F-16V fighter contract
https://www.janes.com/article/90215/dod ... r-contract
DoD awards Lockheed Martin Slovak F-16V fighter contract
The US Department of Defense (DoD) has awarded Lockheed Martin USD799.9 million to build 14 F-16V Block 70/72 Fighting Falcon multirole combat aircraft for Slovakia.
The award, which was announced by the DoD on 31 July, came seven months after Slovak Prime Minister Peter Pellegrini announced that his government had signed a EUR1.6 billion (USD1.78 billion) procurement contract for the aircraft, training, and weapons.
According to the DoD contract notification, work will be complete by 31 January 2024.
Although not specified in the DoD announcement, Slovakia is to receive 12 single-seat and two twin-seat aircraft, as well as Raytheon AIM-120C7 Advanced Medium-Range Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM) and AIM-9X Sidewinder air-to-air missiles. To date, no air-to-surface weaponry has been announced.
As previously reported by Jane's , the Eastern European country will take delivery of the first four aircraft in 2022, two of which will be two-seater variants and the remaining 10 single-seater aircraft in the beginning of 2024.
...
https://www.janes.com/article/90215/dod ... r-contract
Re: Slovakia to purchase Block 70 F-16s
Ozair wrote:For the F-16 Blk 70 it is interesting to note the difference in contract price between the FMS case, US$2.9 billion, and the signed deal, reportedly US$1.3 billion, with Slovakia. That is likely the flyaway cost of approximately US$92 million per aircraft.
Ozair wrote:Order has been formally lodged with LM for the Slovakian F-16Vs. I expect the cost of US$800 million likely doesn’t include the engine or perhaps the radar and other associated systems.
The editor's note in this Defense-Aerospace article puzzles over the price difference with the Bulgarian order.....
.....http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... vakia.html
"(EDITOR’S NOTE: Discounting the support part of this contract, the unit cost of each of these fourteen F-16 Block 70 fighters works out to $57.1 million.
By comparison, Bulgaria has been charged $1.26 billion for eight F-16s it is also buying, or a contract unit cost of $157.7 million, albeit with a small weapons and support contract.
There is no obvious explanation for a price that varies by a factor of 1:3 for the same aircraft, ordered at the same time, except that Lockheed charges its direct sales customers as much as the market can bear.
Another possibility is that it offers other inducements to persuade buyers to pay substantially more for its products than other competitors are offering.)"
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- ThePointblank
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Re: Slovakia to purchase Block 70 F-16s
Support contracts can easily cost 2-3 times the original value of the equipment in question.
Re: Slovakia to purchase Block 70 F-16s
Devilfish wrote:Ozair wrote:For the F-16 Blk 70 it is interesting to note the difference in contract price between the FMS case, US$2.9 billion, and the signed deal, reportedly US$1.3 billion, with Slovakia. That is likely the flyaway cost of approximately US$92 million per aircraft.Ozair wrote:Order has been formally lodged with LM for the Slovakian F-16Vs. I expect the cost of US$800 million likely doesn’t include the engine or perhaps the radar and other associated systems.
The editor's note in this Defense-Aerospace article puzzles over the price difference with the Bulgarian order.....
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... vakia.html
"(EDITOR’S NOTE: Discounting the support part of this contract, the unit cost of each of these fourteen F-16 Block 70 fighters works out to $57.1 million.
By comparison, Bulgaria has been charged $1.26 billion for eight F-16s it is also buying, or a contract unit cost of $157.7 million, albeit with a small weapons and support contract.
There is no obvious explanation for a price that varies by a factor of 1:3 for the same aircraft, ordered at the same time, except that Lockheed charges its direct sales customers as much as the market can bear.
Another possibility is that it offers other inducements to persuade buyers to pay substantially more for its products than other competitors are offering.)"
You lose logic when you quote his Editors Notes…
The contract given to LM was for the airframe which almost certainly does not include the engine, radar etc as I indicated above. With most previous generation airframes the US acquired the respective components separately, airframe, engine, radar, HMS and so on.
The Bulgarian contract was US$1.26 billion for eight aircraft while the Slovakian contract was US$1.8 billion for 14. Divide both of those by the order quantities and you arrive at the very rationale figure of US$130 mill all up for Slovakia and US$157 mill for Bulgaria. If you factor in potentially different sustaiment costs and timeframe, perhaps different numbers of weapons, training schemes, local support, Slovakia ordered nearly twice as many etc you can see why the cost difference is minimal. All of a sudden we have gone from an outlandish 300% cost claim to just 30%... Amazing the difference if you actualy compare the same numbers...
Let us be clear then, this is again Giovanni de Briganti being deliberately factually incorrect to confuse and mislead the reader for his own purposes. There is no other way one could be so incorrect and not use simple common sense and available numbers to draw a valid, and logical, conclusion.
Re: Slovakia to purchase Block 70 F-16s
Max Q wrote:This is the aircraft the USAF should still be purchasing In the hundreds
instead of the F35
A proven, rugged and flexible design that’s been steadily updated
and is still a fearsome weapon, in fact more than ever
How does the F-16 solve any problems for the Marines? What about Navy? What about other countries with similar concerns ordering TONS of the B model? Everyone needed the F-35, like it or not.
Completely ignoring the fact that the F-35 is exponentially more lethal (in real combat, BVR is everything.. ) both A2A and as a battle space management tool for complete situational awareness, in conventional/dirty form it carries a much higher payload over a longer distance. Even in a WVR engagement, F-35As with blk III are pulling 9g just fine - they also have HOBS 9X, which I suppose the V will have with the JHMCS - but that's a new thing for the 16.
The 16 is simply not an air superiority aircraft (in the context of the USA) and has a limited ground attack capability. With the USA's threats in mind, that leaves you with a somewhat useless plane. It's still a great aircraft, but when the $hit hits the fan, they'd be the last to go in, and the last to be utilized. There are better/safer options for A2A and A2G - modern SAM threats specifically are a huge issue for any new non-5th gen. The only single advantage would be cost.
It's a perfect export aircraft for smaller countries, facing older (and more limited / consolidated) threats.
edit: SORRY - just realized how old the quoted message was, my bad.
But yes - I don't think any of the comparisons, training, engagements, or even airshows at the time the earlier messages were posted involved the unrestricted G Block III upgrades. I'd imagine things are very different now, after seeing some of the Lightning II Demo Team's videos.Who is online
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