na
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US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:23 am

Although this deal is over a month old I cannot find its been mentioned on a.net yet:

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/21 ... ng-777-jet

The US Army has aquired Saudi Arabian 777-268ER, registered HZ-AKF, built in 1997, and retired last year. It will be blown up in an anti-terrorist exercise to evaluate how a modern day airliner reacts to on-board bomb. Btw about 20 years ago a similar test was done in Britain with an early-built 747-100.
 
IWMBH
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:06 am

I can't open the link in the Netherlands but why is the US army doing this exercise and not the air force?
 
george77300
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:10 am

IWMBH wrote:
I can't open the link in the Netherlands but why is the US army doing this exercise and not the air force?


Why would it be the air force?

In a real situation after a possible hijaking/terrorist incident the army/armed police is who responds. I guess they want to test how it explodes. The air force will be in their own jets flying. They won't do on board bomb tests.
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Slash787
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:24 am

Iran Air could have used this plane
 
Joelatbsl
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:37 am

HZ-AKF was the VIP transport of Saudia, so definitely an oddball that is probably not worth being taken up by another airline anywhere. Add to that, would Iran pick up something from Saudi Arabia just like that?
 
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Momo1435
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:41 am

IWMBH wrote:
I can't open the link in the Netherlands but why is the US army doing this exercise and not the air force?

The tests are done by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security to see what happens to a plane when a bomb explodes on board. They will also get several cargo holds of 4 747s for similar tests. It's all related to anti terrorism measures. The tests are not to see what could be the best way to blow up a plane.
 
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hOMSaR
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Wed Jul 11, 2018 11:57 am

Are there still any of the 787 prototypes that couldn’t be sold that are still in theoretically flyable condition (with a little prep-work perhaps) and haven’t been donated to a museum?

Reading that they want to know how a modern airliner reacts to explosives, I’d think they might be interested in how an all-CFRP fuselage does.

And of course there are some homeless early-build ex-SQ A380s.
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par13del
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:08 pm

hOMSaR wrote:
Are there still any of the 787 prototypes that couldn’t be sold that are still in theoretically flyable condition (with a little prep-work perhaps) and haven’t been donated to a museum?

Reading that they want to know how a modern airliner reacts to explosives, I’d think they might be interested in how an all-CFRP fuselage does.

And of course there are some homeless early-build ex-SQ A380s.

Do you really think Airbus would allow the US Army to blow up an A380?
My bet is on if this becomes an issue that the safety regulators decide to sign off on, it will be done in Europe by Europeans and the results will be shared with US regulators.
 
kalvado
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:18 pm

par13del wrote:
hOMSaR wrote:
Do you really think Airbus would allow the US Army to blow up an A380?.

Can they prevent that? if the plane is paid for, it is the property of the owner. Manufacturer can refuse supporting the exercise and revoke future support for (whats left of) the plane, so it cannot be returned to service.. But I don't think return to service is an objective.
 
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par13del
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:37 pm

Well let's hope the carrier has no other Airbus a/c in house, do some google searches on Boeing purchasing clients Airbus a/c to allow the replacement with Boeing frames, if my memory is accurate, Airbus went on record stating they would deny continued support.
 
VSMUT
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Wed Jul 11, 2018 12:49 pm

kalvado wrote:
par13del wrote:
hOMSaR wrote:
Do you really think Airbus would allow the US Army to blow up an A380?.

Can they prevent that? if the plane is paid for, it is the property of the owner. Manufacturer can refuse supporting the exercise and revoke future support for (whats left of) the plane, so it cannot be returned to service.. But I don't think return to service is an objective.


They could always bid higher. But in the end, the scrapped A380s aren't going to be cheap. Spare parts for A380s are expensive, and as such they will be probably be sold for a good amount.

At less than 7 mio USD for a functional aircraft, the same can't be said for 777-200ERs unfortunately, and it is a good bet that this is why they chose that type in particular. They could probably even sell the engines for a few mio. each, meaning that the total cost might not be more than 3 mio USD.
 
iamlucky13
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:34 pm

IWMBH wrote:
I can't open the link in the Netherlands but why is the US army doing this exercise and not the air force?


It actually says this is being done for the Department of Homeland Security, so the project doesn't even originate with the DoD.

However, it is being done at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, which is an Army facility. This is probably because they have appropriate space and the trained personnel to do large scale explosive testing.
 
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Spacepope
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:42 pm

Slash787 wrote:
Iran Air could have used this plane

Maybe they can have it after DHS is done with it.
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FatCat
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Wed Jul 11, 2018 1:51 pm

na wrote:
Although this deal is over a month old I cannot find its been mentioned on a.net yet:

http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/21 ... ng-777-jet

The US Army has aquired Saudi Arabian 777-268ER, registered HZ-AKF, built in 1997, and retired last year. It will be blown up in an anti-terrorist exercise to evaluate how a modern day airliner reacts to on-board bomb. Btw about 20 years ago a similar test was done in Britain with an early-built 747-100.

Was it the 747 now parked in Roswell NM?



Edit: no, this one is / was used by the FAA for non-destructive testing.
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Etheereal
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:07 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
I can't open the link in the Netherlands but why is the US army doing this exercise and not the air force?


It actually says this is being done for the Department of Homeland Security, so the project doesn't even originate with the DoD.

However, it is being done at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, which is an Army facility. This is probably because they have appropriate space and the trained personnel to do large scale explosive testing.

on Great Britain?
 
FatCat
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:12 pm

Etheereal wrote:
iamlucky13 wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
I can't open the link in the Netherlands but why is the US army doing this exercise and not the air force?


It actually says this is being done for the Department of Homeland Security, so the project doesn't even originate with the DoD.

However, it is being done at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, which is an Army facility. This is probably because they have appropriate space and the trained personnel to do large scale explosive testing.

on Great Britain?

Maryland

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aberdeen_Proving_Ground
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smithbs
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Wed Jul 11, 2018 2:14 pm

There would be an argument for USAF involvement because they have extensive knowledge of aircraft structures and how they take damage - they could provide some good advice and could probably help scrub the results. But in the end it looks like they are just blowing up a large structure on the ground, and Army test grounds are good for that.

Still, I wonder why they need a whole 777 airframe. If you are worried about smuggled terrorist bombs then I'd think that small-scale tests against panels and sub-assemblies would suffice. A whole airframe would be useful if you are looking at more exotic plots, of which I can think of but won't mention here.
 
iamlucky13
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:19 pm

smithbs wrote:
There would be an argument for USAF involvement because they have extensive knowledge of aircraft structures and how they take damage - they could provide some good advice and could probably help scrub the results. But in the end it looks like they are just blowing up a large structure on the ground, and Army test grounds are good for that.

Still, I wonder why they need a whole 777 airframe. If you are worried about smuggled terrorist bombs then I'd think that small-scale tests against panels and sub-assemblies would suffice. A whole airframe would be useful if you are looking at more exotic plots, of which I can think of but won't mention here.


The Army has extensive knowledge of aircraft structures, too, but Homeland Security can solicit additional information from both the Army and Air Force as needed, in addition to from the manufacturers. This article relates specifically to sourcing a test article by the organization that agreed to conduct the actual test.

Small scale tests against panels and sub-assemblies don't replicate how the pressure wave propagates in an enclosed, pressurized environment, nor how it affects the structure while under pressure.

I'm sure there already has been quite a bit of testing involving salvaged panels or perhaps even barrels. In such case, a larger scale test may, aside from providing direct data about how the full aircraft is affected, also help establish what the differences are between sub-scale, unpressurized testing and full scale, pressurized testing.

That in turn would help use future subscale testing to more accurately predict what full scale results would be.

They may also have computational fluid dynamics and FEA structural modelling they are hoping to validate.
 
iamlucky13
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:23 pm

Etheereal wrote:
iamlucky13 wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
I can't open the link in the Netherlands but why is the US army doing this exercise and not the air force?


It actually says this is being done for the Department of Homeland Security, so the project doesn't even originate with the DoD.

However, it is being done at Aberdeen Proving Grounds, which is an Army facility. This is probably because they have appropriate space and the trained personnel to do large scale explosive testing.

on Great Britain?


Interesting. I didn't realize both the US and UK had military bases near cities named Aberdeen.
 
777PHX
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:23 pm

The US military’s primary counter-terrorism/hostage rescue group is Delta Force, which is a division of the US Army, so it does make some sense that the Army would be leading this.
Last edited by 777PHX on Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:24 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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OA940
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:27 pm

Sure why not
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United787
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:27 pm

hOMSaR wrote:
Are there still any of the 787 prototypes that couldn’t be sold that are still in theoretically flyable condition (with a little prep-work perhaps) and haven’t been donated to a museum?

Reading that they want to know how a modern airliner reacts to explosives, I’d think they might be interested in how an all-CFRP fuselage does.

And of course there are some homeless early-build ex-SQ A380s.


I was thinking the same thing. If they did this 20 years ago with a 741, why do it now with a 777? I didn't think there was that much difference between the structure of a 747 and 777. The 787 would be different.

Also, just because the US Army is conducting the tests, doesn't mean that the USAF isn't a party to the testing and analysis.
 
santi319
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:30 pm

Our taxes at work...
 
Etheereal
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:44 pm

santi319 wrote:
Our taxes at work...

please..
 
32andBelow
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:45 pm

george77300 wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
I can't open the link in the Netherlands but why is the US army doing this exercise and not the air force?


Why would it be the air force?

In a real situation after a possible hijaking/terrorist incident the army/armed police is who responds. I guess they want to test how it explodes. The air force will be in their own jets flying. They won't do on board bomb tests.

The US army wouldn’t respond to any domestics us terorrist incidents.
 
UltimoTiger777
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:03 pm

32andBelow wrote:
The US army wouldn’t respond to any domestics us terorrist incidents.


I'm sure in certain circumstances they would.
 
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:29 pm

 
Varsity1
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:33 pm

32andBelow wrote:
george77300 wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
I can't open the link in the Netherlands but why is the US army doing this exercise and not the air force?


Why would it be the air force?

In a real situation after a possible hijaking/terrorist incident the army/armed police is who responds. I guess they want to test how it explodes. The air force will be in their own jets flying. They won't do on board bomb tests.

The US army wouldn’t respond to any domestics us terorrist incidents.


They are doing the research because they have the means and resources.

Results will be shared with everyone who should know.
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jakubz
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:41 pm

smithbs wrote:
There would be an argument for USAF involvement because they have extensive knowledge of aircraft structures and how they take damage - they could provide some good advice and could probably help scrub the results. But in the end it looks like they are just blowing up a large structure on the ground, and Army test grounds are good for that.

Still, I wonder why they need a whole 777 airframe. If you are worried about smuggled terrorist bombs then I'd think that small-scale tests against panels and sub-assemblies would suffice. A whole airframe would be useful if you are looking at more exotic plots, of which I can think of but won't mention here.


Maybe they will have the cabin pressurized to see the combined effect of the explosive and the air rushing out? Kind of hard to do that with just a small section of the aircraft.
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:47 pm

par13del wrote:
hOMSaR wrote:
Are there still any of the 787 prototypes that couldn’t be sold that are still in theoretically flyable condition (with a little prep-work perhaps) and haven’t been donated to a museum?

Reading that they want to know how a modern airliner reacts to explosives, I’d think they might be interested in how an all-CFRP fuselage does.

And of course there are some homeless early-build ex-SQ A380s.

Do you really think Airbus would allow the US Army to blow up an A380?
My bet is on if this becomes an issue that the safety regulators decide to sign off on, it will be done in Europe by Europeans and the results will be shared with US regulators.

More like, A380 is so special that it doesn't really have that much reference value
 
iamlucky13
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:23 pm

United787 wrote:
hOMSaR wrote:
Are there still any of the 787 prototypes that couldn’t be sold that are still in theoretically flyable condition (with a little prep-work perhaps) and haven’t been donated to a museum?

Reading that they want to know how a modern airliner reacts to explosives, I’d think they might be interested in how an all-CFRP fuselage does.

And of course there are some homeless early-build ex-SQ A380s.


I was thinking the same thing. If they did this 20 years ago with a 741, why do it now with a 777? I didn't think there was that much difference between the structure of a 747 and 777. The 787 would be different.

Also, just because the US Army is conducting the tests, doesn't mean that the USAF isn't a party to the testing and analysis.


That test was followup to the Lockerbie bombing. It simultaneously tested several concepts for reinforcements to the aircraft and/or cargo containers (I'm not clear exactly what the reinforcements were), plus a control explosion, to research improvements that could be made to reduce the vulnerability of aircraft to high explosives.

It no doubt leaves numerous questions open about the range of possible explosive types and quantities that could be used, and where they might be placed, especially with regards to attacks that are not state sponsored. The amount of instrumentation may very well have been lacking compared to what researchers currently would like to see data from, especially with CFD and FEA having become common engineering tools since then, and the improved ease of recording more channels at high sampling rates. I expect it is also of interest to them that the 777 was subject to several significantly more stringent crash-worthiness requirements than the 747 that may also affect the results.

I don't see much reason for them to do the test with a CFRP fuselage if they still have major questions about aluminum fuselages. Less than 4% of aircraft in service have CFRP fuselages, and that percentage is not going to grow very quickly because somewhere around 85% of new deliveries through at least 2025 will have aluminum fuselages.
 
m007j
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:28 pm

UltimoTiger777 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
The US army wouldn’t respond to any domestics us terorrist incidents.


I'm sure in certain circumstances they would.

They cannot, the posse comitatus act does not allow the regular Army to intervene at all domestically. The National Guard and the Air National Guard are the only ones who can operate when civilians are involved on US soil. Even during 9/11, most of the fighters launcheed were from the ANG, save a few from the 1st Fighter Wing in Langley, VA becuause neither Maryland or Pennsylvania has fighters in it's ANG units.
 
iamlucky13
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:32 pm

I found some interesting related reading:
https://www.dhs.gov/science-and-technol ... -explosive

DHS already has a test facility run in partnership with the US Army at Aberdeen. This includes a pressure vessel they can attach fuselage panel samples to for sub-scale testing in enclosed environments.
 
777PHX
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:08 pm

32andBelow wrote:
The US army wouldn’t respond to any domestics us terorrist incidents.


They have in the past. They were on hand at Waco back in 1993.
 
smithbs
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Wed Jul 11, 2018 6:43 pm

777PHX wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
The US army wouldn’t respond to any domestics us terorrist incidents.


They have in the past. They were on hand at Waco back in 1993.


I believe that was Army National Guard, which can be called up by the state governor for state business in accordance with state laws, which would be a Title 32 status. Call-up on Title 10 service is for federal non-domestic use.
 
DL757NYC
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Wed Jul 11, 2018 7:56 pm

For a plane that was such a game changer there sure have been many frames that were retired young and parted out. I guess it’s the lack of a cargo conversion. When then practically MD-11 was dumped. By AA/DL UPS AND fed ex picked them right up. They still are buying them
 
checksixx
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:56 pm

george77300 wrote:
IWMBH wrote:
I can't open the link in the Netherlands but why is the US army doing this exercise and not the air force?


Why would it be the air force?

In a real situation after a possible hijaking/terrorist incident the army/armed police is who responds. I guess they want to test how it explodes. The air force will be in their own jets flying. They won't do on board bomb tests.


Wrong. It falls to the FBI's jurisdiction for all aviation hijackings in the US.
 
checksixx
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Wed Jul 11, 2018 9:57 pm

m007j wrote:
UltimoTiger777 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
The US army wouldn’t respond to any domestics us terorrist incidents.


I'm sure in certain circumstances they would.

They cannot, the posse comitatus act does not allow the regular Army to intervene at all domestically. The National Guard and the Air National Guard are the only ones who can operate when civilians are involved on US soil. Even during 9/11, most of the fighters launcheed were from the ANG, save a few from the 1st Fighter Wing in Langley, VA becuause neither Maryland or Pennsylvania has fighters in it's ANG units.


Wrong. All of the alert aircraft launched on 9/11 were from ANG units. The active components had no jets sitting alert.
 
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N328KF
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:47 am

m007j wrote:
UltimoTiger777 wrote:
They cannot, the posse comitatus act does not allow the regular Army to intervene at all domestically. The National Guard and the Air National Guard are the only ones who can operate when civilians are involved on US soil. Even during 9/11, most of the fighters launcheed were from the ANG, save a few from the 1st Fighter Wing in Langley, VA becuause neither Maryland or Pennsylvania has fighters in it's ANG units.


If the threat level was sufficient, this act would be ignored and the legalities would be figured out later.
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737tanker
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Thu Jul 12, 2018 3:04 am

m007j wrote:
UltimoTiger777 wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
The US army wouldn’t respond to any domestics us terorrist incidents.


I'm sure in certain circumstances they would.

They cannot, the posse comitatus act does not allow the regular Army to intervene at all domestically. The National Guard and the Air National Guard are the only ones who can operate when civilians are involved on US soil. Even during 9/11, most of the fighters launcheed were from the ANG, save a few from the 1st Fighter Wing in Langley, VA becuause neither Maryland or Pennsylvania has fighters in it's ANG units.

The US Army can and has responded to domestic situations. For example in 1992 President George HW Bush deployed units of the Army’s 7th Infantry Division and the 1st Marine Division to Los Angeles in response to the Rodney King riots.
 
na
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:25 am

Very odd to turn to the question why not a A380.

Anyway, the 777 is the perfect type for such a test. Its the most common widebody type, especially in the US and therefore the most likely target for a terrorist bomb. And there are plenty old jobless 777s around which can be had for relatively small money.
 
na
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Thu Jul 12, 2018 9:27 am

Why has this thread been moved to the military sector? The 777 a CIVILIAN airplane, and the test is to prevent CIVILIAN airliners from bombing.
 
m007j
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Thu Jul 12, 2018 12:00 pm

checksixx wrote:
m007j wrote:
UltimoTiger777 wrote:

I'm sure in certain circumstances they would.

They cannot, the posse comitatus act does not allow the regular Army to intervene at all domestically. The National Guard and the Air National Guard are the only ones who can operate when civilians are involved on US soil. Even during 9/11, most of the fighters launcheed were from the ANG, save a few from the 1st Fighter Wing in Langley, VA becuause neither Maryland or Pennsylvania has fighters in it's ANG units.


Wrong. All of the alert aircraft launched on 9/11 were from ANG units. The active components had no jets sitting alert.

From the Aviationist: "Among them, the VMFA-321, based at Andrews AFB, whose F-18 Hornets with callsign “Angel” covered the higher part of the airspace from FL270 and above; the 1st FW F-15s scrambled from Langley as “First” and covering the FL230 – FL260 block levels"
https://theaviationist.com/2011/09/07/9-11/
 
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bikerthai
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Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Thu Jul 12, 2018 1:39 pm

Here are probably some reason why the 777 was chosen:

1) The 777 is now the most widely used intercontinental aircraft in the world. They have just a certain amount of money and they want to use it on a plane that is carrying the most people to enter the United state from oversees. The 747 will soon be retired. There A380 are not carrying a significant of folks in to the US.

2) While data existed for the 747, the skin/stringer/frames configuration of the 747 is much different from the 777. The type of construction (joints and fasteners etc.) may impact how the frame react to the blast.

3) They typically want to use a frame with the most flight time as that frame would have been most weakened by fatigue and thus pose the greatest danger. The 787 have not flown enough to achieve this. Boeing has one 787 fatigue test frame I believe, but I believe after testing, they would be cutting it up for analysis.

4) Of the remaining frames, they may have data for the 737 via the P-8A ordinance testing. I am not sure if the A320 was tested, but that would be the next logical frame to test. The 767 will probably be tested as part of the KC-46 evaluation.

bt
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dragon6172
Posts: 900
Joined: Sat Jul 14, 2007 9:56 am

Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Thu Jul 12, 2018 6:31 pm

m007j wrote:
checksixx wrote:
m007j wrote:
They cannot, the posse comitatus act does not allow the regular Army to intervene at all domestically. The National Guard and the Air National Guard are the only ones who can operate when civilians are involved on US soil. Even during 9/11, most of the fighters launcheed were from the ANG, save a few from the 1st Fighter Wing in Langley, VA becuause neither Maryland or Pennsylvania has fighters in it's ANG units.


Wrong. All of the alert aircraft launched on 9/11 were from ANG units. The active components had no jets sitting alert.

From the Aviationist: "Among them, the VMFA-321, based at Andrews AFB, whose F-18 Hornets with callsign “Angel” covered the higher part of the airspace from FL270 and above; the 1st FW F-15s scrambled from Langley as “First” and covering the FL230 – FL260 block levels"
https://theaviationist.com/2011/09/07/9-11/

For what its worth, VMFA-321 was a USMC Reserve squadron at the time. Decommissioned now.
Phrogs Phorever
 
checksixx
Posts: 1159
Joined: Wed Mar 09, 2005 11:39 pm

Re: US Army buys a 777 to blow it up

Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:44 am

m007j wrote:
From the Aviationist: "Among them, the VMFA-321, based at Andrews AFB, whose F-18 Hornets with callsign “Angel” covered the higher part of the airspace from FL270 and above; the 1st FW F-15s scrambled from Langley as “First” and covering the FL230 – FL260 block levels"
https://theaviationist.com/2011/09/07/9-11/


That would be 100% incorrect. There were no uploaded (armed) F-15's at Langley to scramble...and none did. I was there. MUCH later after the mornings events, the Langley F-15's were used at CAP stations.

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