texl1649 wrote:

I’d pull for the Saab here.

texl1649 wrote:

It would be interesting to see if a package with cargo/tanker with kc390 might even make sense.

Dutchy wrote:

Are most of the competitors even in production by then?

Dutchy wrote:

The Eurofighter Typhoon isn't built by Airbus alone.

texl1649 wrote:

I agree overall but I do think the pending protracted American withdrawal from European defense will necessitate some different thinking in sustainment and cargo missions in Europe. Options won’t hurt.

texl1649 wrote:

I agree overall but I do think the pending protracted American withdrawal from European defense will necessitate some different thinking in sustainment and cargo missions in Europe. Options won’t hurt.

texl1649 wrote:

I’d pull for the Saab here. It would be interesting to see if a package with cargo/tanker with kc390 might even make sense.

ThePointblank wrote:

The Swiss don't even operate airlifters; the biggest transport aircraft they operate are a Beechcraft King Air, a DHC-6 Twin Otter, and Pilatus PC-6 Porter's.

The Swiss don't have a need for such aircraft as the Swiss military doesn't do overseas deployment, nor are they tied to any of their neighbours in any mutual defence agreements. The Swiss are primarily a territorial defence military, focused on the defence of Swiss territory.

texl1649 wrote:

And the Swiss, while yes not a part of the EU/Nato (not sure how that was surfaced as a relevant topic), They also, yes, do deploy on various missions.

texl1649 wrote:

remain a part of Europe that is shifting in it's border/security postures as it hasn't done since at least 1989.

The Federal Constitution and the Military Act assign three central missions to the Swiss Armed Forces: defense; support of the civilian authorities; and the promotion of peace within an international context.

The first Request For Quotations for the next fighter jets has been sent to the government agencies of the manufacturers. armasuisse expects offers in response by the end of January 2019.

On the basis of the requirements published by the DDPS on 23 March 2018, armasuisse, on July 6, 2018, sent the request for quotations for the next combat aircraft to the governmental agencies of the five manufacturers concerned:
-- Germany (Airbus Eurofighter),
-- France (Dassault Rafale),
-- Sweden (Saab Gripen E), and the
-- United States (Boeing F / A-18 Super Hornet, Lockheed-Martin F-35A).

After making contact with their government agency, manufacturers have the option to submit their offer to armasuisse until the end of January 2019.

Tenders must include the following information:

-- calculation of the number of aircraft required by the manufacturer to fulfill the missions of the Swiss Air Force (and in particular to fly four planes permanently for four weeks);

-- price for 40 and 30 aircraft, logistical costs and guided missiles included, as a basis for the subsequent determination of the required number;

-- information and proposals for cooperation between armed forces and procurement authorities;

-- indication as to the possibility of offsets and other compensation.

Evaluation and analysis of costs and effectiveness

Then, the indications of the manufacturers will be analyzed in detail. To do this, the DDPS has defined a weighting of the four main evaluation criteria concerning the effectiveness of the system:
-- effectiveness (operational, endurance) 55%
-- product support (ease of maintenance, autonomous assistance) 25%
-- cooperation 10%
-- direct compensations (offsets) 10%

This weighting will also apply to the surface-to-air defense system (DSA) for which the request for tenders should be sent at the end of the summer.

This time, the comparison of candidates for the new combat aircraft and of the new ground-to-air defense system will be based, in addition to the overall effectiveness, on the acquisition and operating costs.

Next steps

From May to July 2019, fighter jets will undergo, one after the other, in-flight and ground tests in Payerne, after which a second request for proposals will be sent by armasuisse in November 2019, with responses expected by the end of May 2020.

The observations made during the flight and ground tests, as well as the evaluation of the initial quotations, will be included in this second request for proposal. It will ask manufacturers to submit their best possible offer for Switzerland.

The evaluation report will be drawn up from June to the end of 2020, and then submitted to the Federal Council at the same time as the surface-to-air defense system, in order to decide on the model.

Ozair wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

The Eurofighter Typhoon isn't built by Airbus alone.

While it has production lines in Britain, Germany, Spain and Italy and different manufacturers from each nation have geographical responsibility for production and export the overall program is managed by Airbus. In the case of the Swiss contract I believe it is German Airbus that has the right to offer the aircraft.

The Socialist Party wants to give voice to the Air2030 project. For him, the model proposed by the DDPS is too expensive and does not correspond to a modern army. For this, the PS proposes its own model and we will see, that this one is in itself a vast humbness. It seems that PS who found that the police of the sky was useless, there is little, returned his jacket history of pleasing for the next Federal elections.

The socialist proposal:

For the PS planes proposed in the framework of the project Air2030 are too expensive and especially exceeded! In fact, the Socialists propose to evaluate the following aircraft: the M-346 of the Italian Leonardo, the Aerovodochody L-159 and the South Korean KAI T-50. These planes cost between 10 and 20 million euros each. For comparison: the jets that Switzerland wants to buy (Rafale, Eurofighter, Gripen, F-35, Super Hornet) cost 100 million and more each according to the PS. Note that the PS also seeks to wait until the arrival of future aircraft such as Scaf and Tempest. The number of light jets to be purchased "also depends on the type purchased," says PS Zurich's security officer Priska Seiler Graf. "The order of magnitude is a dozen aimed at ensuring airspace security in the air force while awaiting the retirement of F / A-18s.

Ozair wrote:

The Swiss socialist party is proposing that the Swiss Air Force procure lead In trainers such as the M-346, L-159 or T-50 instead of a dedicated fighter aircraft with the intent to wait until FCAS or tempest is available to acquire. A plan doomed to fail…

A google translate of a portion of the article is below.

Air2030, la grande farce du Parti Socialiste !

The Socialist Party wants to give voice to the Air2030 project. For him, the model proposed by the DDPS is too expensive and does not correspond to a modern army. For this, the PS proposes its own model and we will see, that this one is in itself a vast humbness. It seems that PS who found that the police of the sky was useless, there is little, returned his jacket history of pleasing for the next Federal elections.

The socialist proposal:

For the PS planes proposed in the framework of the project Air2030 are too expensive and especially exceeded! In fact, the Socialists propose to evaluate the following aircraft: the M-346 of the Italian Leonardo, the Aerovodochody L-159 and the South Korean KAI T-50. These planes cost between 10 and 20 million euros each. For comparison: the jets that Switzerland wants to buy (Rafale, Eurofighter, Gripen, F-35, Super Hornet) cost 100 million and more each according to the PS. Note that the PS also seeks to wait until the arrival of future aircraft such as Scaf and Tempest. The number of light jets to be purchased "also depends on the type purchased," says PS Zurich's security officer Priska Seiler Graf. "The order of magnitude is a dozen aimed at ensuring airspace security in the air force while awaiting the retirement of F / A-18s.

http://psk.blog.24heures.ch/archive/201 ... 66748.html

Slug71 wrote:

I bet the French and Germans are happy to hear that.
Not really sure how going with a Lead-in fighter / trainer for the interim will work out though.
Could be good news for the FCAS though.

The SP supports classical social democratic policies. To that rule, the SP stands for a government offering strong public services. The SP is against far-reaching economic liberalism, in favor of social progressivism, environmental policy with climate change mitigation, for an open foreign policy, and a national security policy based on pacifism.

Ozair wrote:

If this idea actually caught on, the Boeing T-X is probably a couple of years too late in being considered but this change would almost certainly require a new competition and selection criteria anyway so perhaps not.

Ozair wrote:

Slug71 wrote:

I bet the French and Germans are happy to hear that.
Not really sure how going with a Lead-in fighter / trainer for the interim will work out though.
Could be good news for the FCAS though.

Noting that the Swiss Socialist Party are the second largest party in the country, at least by votes last election, this suggestion shouldn’t be a surprise.

The SP supports classical social democratic policies. To that rule, the SP stands for a government offering strong public services. The SP is against far-reaching economic liberalism, in favor of social progressivism, environmental policy with climate change mitigation, for an open foreign policy, and a national security policy based on pacifism.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_De ... witzerland

The thing to note though is if they suggest this downgrade for this competition why wouldn’t they also suggest similar for the later selection? I doubt the party officials really understand FCAS or Tempest or what those aircraft will bring capability wise, it is more likely a justification to delay or reduce defence spending today and then do the same again in another 20+ years.

As for using a lead in trainer, perhaps the T-50 would have the speed for the air policing mission (but likely not the fuel required to maintain that speed) but the M-346 and L-159 would be wholly inadequate in that role.

If this idea actually caught on, the Boeing T-X is probably a couple of years too late in being considered but this change would almost certainly require a new competition and selection criteria anyway so perhaps not.

agill wrote:

Ozair wrote:

If this idea actually caught on, the Boeing T-X is probably a couple of years too late in being considered but this change would almost certainly require a new competition and selection criteria anyway so perhaps not.

Well the T-X doesn't have any weapons so I doubt it would be a candidate.

Slug71 wrote:

My thoughts exactly.

The Boeing T-X was the first thing that came to mind when I read that. You're probably right about timing though.
Is the L-159 even in production still?
Of those options, only the T-50 makes sense for what they want.

The Swiss have kicked off flying season for the five types of combat aircraft under consideration to replace the country’s aging fleet, with several demonstrations scheduled between now and early July.

The probes are part of the Swiss “Air 2030” program, an $8.2 billion project to buy new aircraft and ground-based equipment for policing the country's airspace. The evaluation phase began in earnest earlier this year, as Swiss officials took the contender aircraft for a spin in the simulators of their respective home countries. Now they want to see how the planes fare in the famously neutral nation, whose alpine terrain makes engine thrust and maneuverability handy attributes.

Bringing the Eurofighter Typhoon, the Boeing F-18 Super Hornet, the Dassault Rafale, the Lockheed Martin F-35A and the Saab Gripen E to the Payerne air base near Bern is a “significant effort” for the vendors and governments involved, said an industry official from one of the competing teams. But the payoff — an estimated $6 billion of the total Air 2030 budget — is winning “one of the big, promising campaigns out there,” that official said.

All contenders must complete eight test flights each, including one at night. The mission profiles are the same for all parties to ensure equal treatment, according to the Swiss defense ministry.

Notably, the Swiss requirement for competitors is only to bring one or two aircraft specimens, according to a spokesman for Armasuisse, the defense ministry’s acquisition arm. Lockheed Martin expects to bring four of its fifth-generation, stealthy jets to Switzerland for demonstrations beginning in early June.

...

flyingturtle wrote:

The Payerne air base offers limited places for plane spotters.

I guess they are all booked by now.

The different jets are demonstrated on different days.

The Swiss government will split off its purchase of new fighter jets from its order of new surface-to-air defenses, it said on Thursday, setting a budget of 6 billion Swiss francs ($5.96 billion) for the jets alone.

The neutral Alpine country had previously agreed to spend up to 8 billion francs for a combined package under its Air2030 program, but has now divided the plan so that voters could decide separately on buying new jets in a likely referendum.

European aerospace group Airbus, France's Dassault, Sweden's Saab, and Boeing and Lockheed Martin from the United States submitted bids in January to replace the aging Swiss fighter fleet.

Switzerland's stable of Boeing McDonnell Douglas F/A-18C and D Hornets and Northrop F-5 Tigers is scheduled to be retired within years. Airbus's Eurofighter, Boeing's F/A-18 Super Hornet, Dassault's Rafale, F-35As made by Lockheed Martin and Saab's Gripen E are in the running.

"It is clear to the government that public expectations to decide on the procurement by referendum pertain only to the fighter jets," the cabinet said while asking the defense ministry to draw up a plan for this by early September.

The two weapons systems remain interlinked, however, so the deals should proceed in parallel, it added. It also decided that offset deals should cover 60 percent of the purchase amount rather than 100 percent as first planned.

...

art wrote:

I wonder how many radar modes Typhoon and Gripen E can demonstrate at the moment. If very limited this could work against their selection. Perhaps not if the Swiss are convinced that they will be fully developed by the time a selection is made.

art wrote:

If the performance of Gripen E is judged to be adequate I think that Gripen E will be the least expensive to procure and the least expensive to operate. If Sweden has a need for the kind of trainer that Pilatus can offer, I don't see how any other competitor can match that.

flyingturtle wrote:

This just in - surprisingly, Saab has retracted its Gripen E offer.

The reason is that the Swiss Air Force only wants to evaluate planes that already are in operational duty - the Gripen E isn't.

SAS A340 wrote:

The Euro canard is most certainly out......

Ozair wrote:

SAS A340 wrote:

The Euro canard is most certainly out......

I don't agree. The following from SAAB, which the Flightglobal article used, makes it clear that Saab's offer still stands and that the Gripen E will be in service by the time the Swiss acquire.

https://saabgroup.com/media/news-press/ ... ght-tests/

It doesn't help their proposal but I don't think we can formally remove the Griepn from the Swiss acquisition program just yet.

Ozair wrote:

F-35 will be the least expensive to acquire without doubt but will have a higher operating cost than Gripen E.

philzh wrote:

Ozair wrote:

F-35 will be the least expensive to acquire without doubt but will have a higher operating cost than Gripen E.

Even though the Gripen E, from all I read in our newspapers, is unfortunately well and truly out, I'm still very curious here… Please excuse my uninformed asking, but I was under the impression that the F-35 has significantly higher per-airplane prices than Gripen (hardly a neutral source, but https://bestfighter4canada.blogspot.com ... ripen.html).

Is it the case that the Gripen E is or will be a lot more expensive than the Gripen C?

Ozair wrote:

Gripen E was sold to Brazil at US$4.7 billion for 36 aircraft. Take out the local manufacture cost, some weapons integration costs and the total comes out around US$100 million per aircraft. Brazil then also has to fund the development of the F model. The build rate of the Gripen E is so low, likely approx 12 a year, that they don't get the advantage in ordering materials and systems in bulk quantities as well as Saab being happy to sell the local manufacture of the aircraft like they did with Brazil and have offered other nations such as Canada and Finland.

Conversely the F-35, while a larger and more complex aircraft, is being manufactured over 130 a year today and by the time the Swiss would be receiving them would be greater than 160 a year. That provides massive savings for nations that can tac onto the production line. Same thing happened with F-16. We know the US and partners will be paying less than US$80 million by Lot 14 and this cost reduction will go further once the US can negotiate a bulk buy order.

What that translates to is the entire expected Gripen E production run over the next ten years is less than a single year of F-35 production...

The operating cost will likely initially favour the Gripen but I also expect, like the F-16, the size of the global F-35 fleet and their ability to buy in bulk will significantly reduce long term sustainment costs. The plan is to be below 4th gen aircraft sustainment costs by 2025.

Ozair wrote:

The operating cost will likely initially favor the Gripen but I also expect, like the F-16, the size of the global F-35 fleet and their ability to buy in bulk will significantly reduce long term sustainment costs. The plan is to be below 4th gen aircraft sustainment costs by 2025.

Dutchy wrote:

Ozair wrote:

The operating cost will likely initially favor the Gripen but I also expect, like the F-16, the size of the global F-35 fleet and their ability to buy in bulk will significantly reduce long term sustainment costs. The plan is to be below 4th gen aircraft sustainment costs by 2025.

Wow, I would have expected that the F-35, given its complexity and stealth characteristics, would have been inherent more expensive to maintain than a 4th generation jet.

ThePointblank wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

Ozair wrote:

The operating cost will likely initially favor the Gripen but I also expect, like the F-16, the size of the global F-35 fleet and their ability to buy in bulk will significantly reduce long term sustainment costs. The plan is to be below 4th gen aircraft sustainment costs by 2025.

Wow, I would have expected that the F-35, given its complexity and stealth characteristics, would have been inherent more expensive to maintain than a 4th generation jet.

That is what happens when you have production runs that go into the thousands versus maybe at best a hundred. The difference in volume means manufacturers are more willing to give discounts for large orders of components, and there's efficiencies involved as well when you have such large, uninterrupted production runs.

Dutchy wrote:

ThePointblank wrote:

Dutchy wrote:

Wow, I would have expected that the F-35, given its complexity and stealth characteristics, would have been inherent more expensive to maintain than a 4th generation jet.

That is what happens when you have production runs that go into the thousands versus maybe at best a hundred. The difference in volume means manufacturers are more willing to give discounts for large orders of components, and there's efficiencies involved as well when you have such large, uninterrupted production runs.

He says maintenance will cost less than a 4th generation jet, like the F-16. That surprises me because all the benefits you summed up, also goes for the F-16.

Ozair wrote:

The operating cost will likely initially favour the Gripen but I also expect, like the F-16, the size of the global F-35 fleet and their ability to buy in bulk will significantly reduce long term sustainment costs. The plan is to be below 4th gen aircraft sustainment costs by 2025.

Swiss Social Democrat (SP) members of parliament (MPs) have proposed the country procure Leonardo’s M-346FA light combat aircraft, followed by an F/A-18 replacement, instead of 40 multi-role fighters following a briefing at the company’s Venegono plant on 30 October.

Led by MP and SP security policy spokesperson Priska Seiler-Graf, the delegation was received at Venegono plant by Cristiano Biancani, vice-president of sales and marketing, and Mauro Delle Donne, marketing director for Europe, Israel, and NATO. The briefings were focused on the armed LCA version of the M-346 Master, the Griffo radar-equipped M-346FA.

The SP does not support the CHF8 billion (USD8.1 billion) Air 2030 fighter and ground-based air-defence (GBAD) procurement programme launched in 2017, mainly for cost reasons.

…

Rossner said that Switzerland would be a good match also as it looks to replace its ageing Northrop F-5E/F Tiger II and Boeing F/A-18 Hornet fleets. Airbus has proposed up to 40 Eurofighters for Switzerland, with type selection by the Federal Council due at the end of 2020 / early 2021.

Ozair wrote:

An alternate suggestion for the Swiss fighter procurement. Given the low acquisition numbers already, if they split the competition I expect the overall costs would still likely end up being very similar to a single higher performance fighter fleet and this option wouldn’t save any real money.

Swiss Social Democrats propose split fighter acquisition

Swiss Social Democrat (SP) members of parliament (MPs) have proposed the country procure Leonardo’s M-346FA light combat aircraft, followed by an F/A-18 replacement, instead of 40 multi-role fighters following a briefing at the company’s Venegono plant on 30 October.

Led by MP and SP security policy spokesperson Priska Seiler-Graf, the delegation was received at Venegono plant by Cristiano Biancani, vice-president of sales and marketing, and Mauro Delle Donne, marketing director for Europe, Israel, and NATO. The briefings were focused on the armed LCA version of the M-346 Master, the Griffo radar-equipped M-346FA.

The SP does not support the CHF8 billion (USD8.1 billion) Air 2030 fighter and ground-based air-defence (GBAD) procurement programme launched in 2017, mainly for cost reasons.

…

https://www.janes.com/article/92366/swi ... cquisition

Dutchy wrote:

so MEP are specialists in fighter procurement now? We in the Netherlands aren't so fortunate, we have to rely on the military and other specialists to choose the right package.

Ozair wrote:

This competition is more political than most and given how diverse the Swiss parliament is with a minority ruling party and the Social democrats having the second largest representation their opinion, and desire to not spend money, play a role.

Dutchy wrote:

so MEP are specialists in fighter procurement now? We in the Netherlands aren't so fortunate, we have to rely on the military and other specialists to choose the right package.

The social democrats are traveling to Italy to inform themselves about the M-346, and because it's multi-role (trainer, fighter, attack) and cheaper than pure fighter jets, then they can put the M-346 to the conservative politicians and ask them why they insist on a jet that is comparable to ones flown by major European players.