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Mortyman wrote:* South Korea (na)
Amid the prospect of a multiple-party contest, some observers said that the naval project should be put to an open bidder, which could help lower prices.
But a DAPA official said that the U.S. government proposed a reasonable price for the Boeing aircraft similar to that of Saab's Swordfish.
"Should we opt for an open contest, Poseidon's price could go up 10 to 28 percent per unit, which would limit the number of planes we could buy within the total budget," the official said on condition of anonymity.
The DAPA plans to send the letter of request (LOR) for the procurement project to Washington this month. But sources said the project could be delayed should the U.S. government fail to offer the letter of offer and acceptance (LOA) through a congressional approval process by November.
bikerthai wrote:Mortyman wrote:* South Korea (na)
Defense News suggest Korea is getting 6.
bt
Mortyman wrote:Not a large number for a country like South Korea ...
Mortyman wrote:bikerthai wrote:Mortyman wrote:* South Korea (na)
Defense News suggest Korea is getting 6.
bt
Not a large number for a country like South Korea ...
Mortyman wrote:So the air forces that has or is about to get P-8's are so far the following:
* USA (122)
* UK (9)
* Australia (12-15)
* Norway (5)
* New Zealand (4)
* South Korea (na)
* India (12)
wezgulf3 wrote:Saudi have some in order too.
Kiwirob wrote:But we need 5 at least, we have one of the largest SAR zones in the world, 4 won’t be enough.
Kiwirob wrote:But we need 5 at least, we have one of the largest SAR zones in the world, 4 won’t be enough.
Mortyman wrote:Kiwirob wrote:But we need 5 at least, we have one of the largest SAR zones in the world, 4 won’t be enough.
The Boeing P-8 isn't really primarely a SAR aircraft is it ?
Mortyman wrote:I thought the P-8 was primarely a ASW, ASUW and ESM Aircraft …
In Norway it's primarely the Westland Sea King / AgustaWestland AW101 that do the SAR work. Norway has the second largest coastline in the world and an Ocean area 7 times of Norway's landmass. I don't know how large the NZ ocean area is.
Mortyman wrote:I thought the P-8 was primarely a ASW, ASUW and ESM Aircraft …
In Norway it's primarely the Westland Sea King / AgustaWestland AW101 that do the SAR work. Norway has the second largest coastline in the world and an Ocean area 7 times of Norway's landmass. I don't know how large the NZ ocean area is.
ZKNCI wrote:Mortyman wrote:Kiwirob wrote:But we need 5 at least, we have one of the largest SAR zones in the world, 4 won’t be enough.
The Boeing P-8 isn't really primarely a SAR aircraft is it ?
The RNZAF's six P-3K2s are the main SAR asset in the South Pacific and SAR is their primary role alongside fisheries. So those P-8s are just going to have to get used to being thrashed in SAR ops!
Due to the lack of other SAR aircraft about, the P-3s also get used on short-range work, where the high utilisation bites, along with training. Something smaller and cheaper would be better for that, leaving the P-8s for the long-range work, but the RNZAF lacks such an aircraft. Four P-8s alone will be strained to handle the commitments 5sqn fulfills, simply because the number of tasks and their physical spread of ranges is too great.
At least the RNZAF is finally getting something, and something with the range necessary
ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:Mortyman wrote:I thought the P-8 was primarely a ASW, ASUW and ESM Aircraft …
In Norway it's primarely the Westland Sea King / AgustaWestland AW101 that do the SAR work. Norway has the second largest coastline in the world and an Ocean area 7 times of Norway's landmass. I don't know how large the NZ ocean area is.
The NZ SAR region is huge. Essentially imagine if the Norway had to cover all of Europe and a chunk of Africa, from Norway.
https://teara.govt.nz/en/map/13199/new- ... cue-region
https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/commen ... ransposed/
The upgraded radar and such will be very useful for SAR stuff.
Mortyman wrote:ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:Mortyman wrote:I thought the P-8 was primarely a ASW, ASUW and ESM Aircraft …
In Norway it's primarely the Westland Sea King / AgustaWestland AW101 that do the SAR work. Norway has the second largest coastline in the world and an Ocean area 7 times of Norway's landmass. I don't know how large the NZ ocean area is.
The NZ SAR region is huge. Essentially imagine if the Norway had to cover all of Europe and a chunk of Africa, from Norway.
https://teara.govt.nz/en/map/13199/new- ... cue-region
https://www.reddit.com/r/MapPorn/commen ... ransposed/
The upgraded radar and such will be very useful for SAR stuff.
Ah, OK you are looking beyond New Zealand waters. I was just comparing to Norwegian waters. If you are comparing more or less the entire South Pacific Ocean then that is obviously a much larger area.
Which is why I think we are buying the wrong aircraft, I think the P1 suits what we do much better than the P8, plus form what I have read they are cheaper and we could afford 5 of them for the price of 4 P8's. I also don't like the idea of being beholden to the US for anything...
Kiwirob wrote:I think the P1 suits what we do much better than the P8, plus form what I have read they are cheaper and we could afford 5 of them for the price of 4 P8's.
ZKNCI wrote:The RNZAF's six P-3K2s are the main SAR asset in the South Pacific and SAR is their primary role alongside fisheries. So those P-8s are just going to have to get used to being thrashed in SAR ops!
Due to the lack of other SAR aircraft about, the P-3s also get used on short-range work, where the high utilisation bites, along with training. Something smaller and cheaper would be better for that, leaving the P-8s for the long-range work, but the RNZAF lacks such an aircraft. Four P-8s alone will be strained to handle the commitments 5sqn fulfills, simply because the number of tasks and their physical spread of ranges is too great.
At least the RNZAF is finally getting something, and something with the range necessary
Ozair wrote:ZKNCI wrote:The RNZAF's six P-3K2s are the main SAR asset in the South Pacific and SAR is their primary role alongside fisheries. So those P-8s are just going to have to get used to being thrashed in SAR ops!
Due to the lack of other SAR aircraft about, the P-3s also get used on short-range work, where the high utilisation bites, along with training. Something smaller and cheaper would be better for that, leaving the P-8s for the long-range work, but the RNZAF lacks such an aircraft. Four P-8s alone will be strained to handle the commitments 5sqn fulfills, simply because the number of tasks and their physical spread of ranges is too great.
At least the RNZAF is finally getting something, and something with the range necessary
NZ almost needs a coast guard organisation (other than the voluntary one at present) that operate a smaller aircraft for littoral duties.
I do like the idea of supplementing the P-8s in the future with a UAV of some sort. Adding a couple of MQ4C Triton that would be operated/maintained out of NZ but controlled from Adelaide may be of benefit but probably unlikely to happen given Triton’s cost.
ThePointblank wrote:Ozair wrote:ZKNCI wrote:The RNZAF's six P-3K2s are the main SAR asset in the South Pacific and SAR is their primary role alongside fisheries. So those P-8s are just going to have to get used to being thrashed in SAR ops!
Due to the lack of other SAR aircraft about, the P-3s also get used on short-range work, where the high utilisation bites, along with training. Something smaller and cheaper would be better for that, leaving the P-8s for the long-range work, but the RNZAF lacks such an aircraft. Four P-8s alone will be strained to handle the commitments 5sqn fulfills, simply because the number of tasks and their physical spread of ranges is too great.
At least the RNZAF is finally getting something, and something with the range necessary
NZ almost needs a coast guard organisation (other than the voluntary one at present) that operate a smaller aircraft for littoral duties.
I do like the idea of supplementing the P-8s in the future with a UAV of some sort. Adding a couple of MQ4C Triton that would be operated/maintained out of NZ but controlled from Adelaide may be of benefit but probably unlikely to happen given Triton’s cost.
Or, get a number of C-130's and outfit them for SAR duties, like how a number of other users use the C-130.
bikerthai wrote:Interesting insight on the pricing of the P-8A.
http://english.yonhapnews.co.kr/nationa ... 52315.htmlAmid the prospect of a multiple-party contest, some observers said that the naval project should be put to an open bidder, which could help lower prices.
But a DAPA official said that the U.S. government proposed a reasonable price for the Boeing aircraft similar to that of Saab's Swordfish.
"Should we opt for an open contest, Poseidon's price could go up 10 to 28 percent per unit, which would limit the number of planes we could buy within the total budget," the official said on condition of anonymity.
Such pricing is probably because of the benefit of tagging on to the US Navy multi-year buy.
Mortyman wrote:bikerthai wrote:Mortyman wrote:* South Korea (na)
Defense News suggest Korea is getting 6.
bt
Not a large number for a country like South Korea ...
cumulushumilis wrote:Or better yet, buy a lower cost platform like the C 295 or C-27J. C-130J are way too costly to be flying low and slow for dedicated SAR work.
Revelation wrote:kick out a raft
bikerthai wrote:Revelation wrote:kick out a raft
For the P-8A I believe the SAR kit is loaded into the bomb bay.
Man handling the raft through the bail out door is not something you don't want to do as standard practice.
bt
Kiwirob wrote:4 isn’t enough it should be 5 or 6.
bunumuring wrote:Hey guys,
I wonder how closely us Aussies will work with the Kiwis on joint training and maintenance etc on the Poseidons? Anyone know how 'similar' the Aussie and Kiwi P-8s will be?
Cheers,
Bunumuring
The RAF’s first of nine Boeing P-8A Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft will be delivered to the service in November 2019, with its second aircraft following in early 2020, the US Navy has revealed.
bigjku wrote:bunumuring wrote:Hey guys,
I wonder how closely us Aussies will work with the Kiwis on joint training and maintenance etc on the Poseidons? Anyone know how 'similar' the Aussie and Kiwi P-8s will be?
Cheers,
Bunumuring
My understand is that the US, UK, Australia and NZ variants will be very similar. The Indian variant is not. Unless NZ wants to substitute certain things they almost certainly will have huge commonality with the other 5 Eyes users.
Caryjack wrote:Canada is the 5th Eye and should have a similar variant.
bikerthai wrote:Caryjack wrote:Canada is the 5th Eye and should have a similar variant.
Not with the current relation between Canada and Boeing.
If it's a FMS then they may be able to talk themselves around it . . . but I would be surprise it Canada will order the P-8A any time soon. And cynics will predict that Canada will finally order some P-8A but only after the line shut down and they would have to get them used from the US Navy.
bt
bigjku wrote:bikerthai wrote:Caryjack wrote:Canada is the 5th Eye and should have a similar variant.
Not with the current relation between Canada and Boeing.
If it's a FMS then they may be able to talk themselves around it . . . but I would be surprise it Canada will order the P-8A any time soon. And cynics will predict that Canada will finally order some P-8A but only after the line shut down and they would have to get them used from the US Navy.
bt
Canada just needs to pay it’s fair share and show it takes its NATO and NORAD responsibilities half seriously. Hasn’t don’t that for at least 30 years.
Slug71 wrote:I think it's more likely that Canada becomes the launch customer for the A320 MPA.
Slug71 wrote:bigjku wrote:bikerthai wrote:
Not with the current relation between Canada and Boeing.
If it's a FMS then they may be able to talk themselves around it . . . but I would be surprise it Canada will order the P-8A any time soon. And cynics will predict that Canada will finally order some P-8A but only after the line shut down and they would have to get them used from the US Navy.
bt
Canada just needs to pay it’s fair share and show it takes its NATO and NORAD responsibilities half seriously. Hasn’t don’t that for at least 30 years.
I think it's more likely that Canada becomes the launch customer for the A320 MPA.
For Boeing’s P-8A Poseidon, sufficient references were provided for the DAPA to fully assess the aircraft and make a decision, whereas neither Saab’s Swordfish MPA nor Airbus’s C295 turbo-prop MPA provided the necessary references to meet DAPA’s requirements.
. and the P-8A Poseidon is already in use by at least five navies around the world, including the navies of Japan and India.
The ROKN’s procurement of P-8As provides a useful fillip to Trump’s “America First” policy, and will hopefully mitigate U.S. pressure on cost-sharing. Thus, the strategic implications of acquiring P-8As must take account of the utility of such a quid pro quo.
Finally, the ROKN’s pilots have become familiar with the P-3C Orion since the mid-1990s, and many of them are reluctant to retrain for a substantially different kind of MPA. For a number of reasons, the pilots prefer the P-8A Poseidon to the Saab Swordfish MPA or the Airbus C295 MPA, and this preference was surely considered by DAPA when deciding which next-generation MPA to acquire to replace the aging P-3C.
DeltaMD90 wrote:but the P-3 does have an advantage when it comes to loiter time.