Turkey's newly announced 300+ metre STOBAR Aircraft carrier

Turkey has announced a program to design, develop and produce a 300+ metre STOBAR Aircraft Carrier by 2029. What we know so far from Turkish media:

ICDAS Shipyard has acquired a new dry dock which measures 370m by 70m for this sole purpose.

Turkey intends to field a CV variant of the TF-X fighter (or another fighter to be developed with ROSTEC of Russia).

TEKSAV Teknoloji, a Turkish company which produces Aircraft Arresting systems has been asked to develop the STOBAR system.

Turkey's success in developing surface-combatant carrier escorts (AAW Frigates, MILDEN Submarine etc) has paved the way for the CV program

There is a graphic at this link. http://www.star.com.tr/ekonomi/ilk-ucak ... r-1345284/

Seems a pretty bold move by Turkey. That is a big ship for what is essentially the Mediterranean and the Black Sea but I don’t see any reason Turkey couldn’t build the ship and a STOBAR carrier is less complex than going full CATOBAR. Will also be interesting to see what they equip it with as the TF-X still has a long way to go while I have seen a rumour that a co-produced fighter with Russia will try and revive the YAK-141 concept...

Either way is an interesting further development. Turkey has really been pushing an enhanced and upgraded military even before the recent political turmoil.

Surely they can control the press with their current military resources..seems like a huge waste of money.

Surely the pros for going CATOBAR or EMALS far outweigh the Pros and Cons of going STOBAR? They have plenty of time to come up with a good design. Possibly even work with China or Russia while they develop their own. I would imagine the RCS of a STOBAR is greater too? I suppose it could be negligible though.

Slug71 wrote:

Surely the pros for going CATOBAR or EMALS far outweigh the Pros and Cons of going STOBAR? They have plenty of time to come up with a good design.

Just a point of note, CATOBAR is a system while EMALS is a variant for launching from CATOBAR, in place of steam.

As for STOBAR versus CATOBAR, most of the market is now STOBAR or STOVL. In production CATOBAR capable aircraft are the F-35, Rafale and SH. Designing an aircraft for CATOBAR takes a little more effort than a comparable STOBAR airframe but the big difference is in the vessel. A CATOBAR vessel needs either the steam Cats or EMALS piping/cabling fitout and either way is an additional level of complexity and cost, as well as long term maintenance.

Of the three variants, the complexity and training proficiency required for both ship and aircrew goes from STOVL, STOBAR to CATOBAR. Many left CATOBAR and I don’t think any have returned…

Slug71 wrote:

Possibly even work with China or Russia while they develop their own. I would imagine the RCS of a STOBAR is greater too? I suppose it could be negligible though.

RCS would be realistically be no different, it is an aircraft carrier after all.

Perhaps they could design with Russia but a new Russian carrier, while a few concepts have been shown, is a 2040+ timeframe, not 2029 like Turkey are seeking for their own design and I doubt Russia’s designs are any further along in maturity. I don’t see China and Turkey co-operating in that way either unless all they want is a Chinese EMALS but this probably is as much about domestic pride as it is about military capability.

Perhaps Turkey sees some export potential but I’m not sure how many other militaries would be interested.

wingman wrote:

Surely they can control the press with their current military resources..seems like a huge waste of money.

Definitely. It serves only to boost the ego of Erdogan.

Within Black Sea and East Mediterranean area, they can deploy aircraft from land bases more cheaply, given that land based aircraft have much more range than carrier aircraft, whether STOBAR or not.

The purpose of aircraft carrier is to show flag on distant seas. Where would Turkey send that? Indian Ocean? Apparently Turkey wants to be an independent military power, alienating from NATO, challenging Arabs, Israel and Iran, maybe dreaming of a new empire (like many others, too, unfortunately).

I wonder if they envision a Kuznetsov or Type 001A derived design. Those are roughly 300 meter long STOBAR designs, and could possibly be built before 2029. Seems like most complex projects they built so far (MBTs, turboprop trainers, attack helicopters, new medium tank, SPGs, howitzers, rocket artillery etc, even the TF-X is being assisted by BAe) were based on imported designs too.

YIMBY wrote:

wingman wrote:

Surely they can control the press with their current military resources..seems like a huge waste of money.

Definitely. It serves only to boost the ego of Erdogan.

Within Black Sea and East Mediterranean area, they can deploy aircraft from land bases more cheaply, given that land based aircraft have much more range than carrier aircraft, whether STOBAR or not.

The purpose of aircraft carrier is to show flag on distant seas. Where would Turkey send that? Indian Ocean? Apparently Turkey wants to be an independent military power, alienating from NATO, challenging Arabs, Israel and Iran, maybe dreaming of a new empire (like many others, too, unfortunately).

They have interests in the Mediterranean and around the African Horn, and who knows what else they could decide was of interest once they get the tools for it. Given the interest also shown by China, India and Brazil in Africa, this could well be in preparation for future (proxy) conflicts on that continent.

Tripoli is already some 1400 km from Turkey, which is already stretching the F-16, and Somalia is completely out of reach by the Turkish AF if they can't rely on allied bases. Italy has 2 carriers and 3 helicopter carriers (and building 1 new carrier and 3 new LHD/LPDs) that more or less stay in the Mediterranean anyway, so why not a single big one for Turkey?

VSMUT wrote:

Tripoli is already some 1400 km from Turkey, which is already stretching the F-16, and Somalia is completely out of reach by the Turkish AF if they can't rely on allied bases. Italy has 2 carriers and 3 helicopter carriers (and building 1 new carrier and 3 new LHD/LPDs) that more or less stay in the Mediterranean anyway, so why not a single big one for Turkey?

To use one effectively ie having one available at all times they really need 2 of them. A stobar version of CVF would be a nice idea, I'm sure BAE would happily sell the design and accept a fat check to modify it.

Kiwirob wrote:

VSMUT wrote:

Tripoli is already some 1400 km from Turkey, which is already stretching the F-16, and Somalia is completely out of reach by the Turkish AF if they can't rely on allied bases. Italy has 2 carriers and 3 helicopter carriers (and building 1 new carrier and 3 new LHD/LPDs) that more or less stay in the Mediterranean anyway, so why not a single big one for Turkey?

To use one effectively ie having one available at all times they really need 2 of them. A stobar version of CVF would be a nice idea, I'm sure BAE would happily sell the design and accept a fat check to modify it.

True, but then France managed with just 1 for ages. They also have the Juan Carlos class coming at some point too, so they will sorta have a second less capable carrier.

VSMUT wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

VSMUT wrote:

Tripoli is already some 1400 km from Turkey, which is already stretching the F-16, and Somalia is completely out of reach by the Turkish AF if they can't rely on allied bases. Italy has 2 carriers and 3 helicopter carriers (and building 1 new carrier and 3 new LHD/LPDs) that more or less stay in the Mediterranean anyway, so why not a single big one for Turkey?

To use one effectively ie having one available at all times they really need 2 of them. A stobar version of CVF would be a nice idea, I'm sure BAE would happily sell the design and accept a fat check to modify it.

True, but then France managed with just 1 for ages. They also have the Juan Carlos class coming at some point too, so they will sorta have a second less capable carrier.

I don't disagree with your point, but the Juan Carlos is a Spanish class of amphibious assault ship. The French class is the Mistral class and they have 3. The first was commissioned in 2004 I think. Egypt also has the two that the French build for Russia but didn't deliver.

Technically the French have 4 "aircraft carriers" at this time.

Cheers

MikeDrop wrote:

I don't disagree with your point, but the Juan Carlos is a Spanish class of amphibious assault ship.

Yep, and Turkey is getting one in 2019, claiming that it is a light carrier and that it could potentially carry F-35Bs or whatever they develop themselves.

The Algerians also got themselves a development of the Italian San Giorgio class amphib. It seems like most of the Mediterranean nations are arming up with these kind of ships.

VSMUT wrote:

MikeDrop wrote:

I don't disagree with your point, but the Juan Carlos is a Spanish class of amphibious assault ship.

Yep, and Turkey is getting one in 2019, claiming that it is a light carrier and that it could potentially carry F-35Bs or whatever they develop themselves.

The Algerians also got themselves a development of the Italian San Giorgio class amphib. It seems like most of the Mediterranean nations are arming up with these kind of ships.

Is Turkey seriously thinking to develop a fighter with VSTOL capability? That would be very expensive, far cheaper to buy the F-35B.

VSMUT wrote:

MikeDrop wrote:

I don't disagree with your point, but the Juan Carlos is a Spanish class of amphibious assault ship.

Yep, and Turkey is getting one in 2019, claiming that it is a light carrier and that it could potentially carry F-35Bs or whatever they develop themselves.

The Algerians also got themselves a development of the Italian San Giorgio class amphib. It seems like most of the Mediterranean nations are arming up with these kind of ships.

My bad - I thought you were talking about the French. I didn't know the Turks were getting a Juan Carlos - or about the Algerians. Got any links?

Cheers

MikeDrop wrote:

VSMUT wrote:

MikeDrop wrote:

I don't disagree with your point, but the Juan Carlos is a Spanish class of amphibious assault ship.

Yep, and Turkey is getting one in 2019, claiming that it is a light carrier and that it could potentially carry F-35Bs or whatever they develop themselves.

The Algerians also got themselves a development of the Italian San Giorgio class amphib. It seems like most of the Mediterranean nations are arming up with these kind of ships.

My bad - I thought you were talking about the French. I didn't know the Turks were getting a Juan Carlos - or about the Algerians. Got any links?

Cheers

The wiki page has sufficient details on the acquisition by Turkey of the LHD.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TCG_Anadolu

I've also seen reports they are seeking a second vessel.

Unlike the Juan Carlos the Algerian modified San Giorgio-class are not fixed wing capable similar to the Mistrals.
http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... ogram.html

Dutchy wrote:

Is Turkey seriously thinking to develop a fighter with VSTOL capability? That would be very expensive, far cheaper to buy the F-35B.

As per what I wrote in the opening post they are considering, if denied the F-35B, a STOVL aircraft possibly designed with Russia and based loosely around the Yak-141. That is obviously a long term project...

Ozair wrote:

MikeDrop wrote:

VSMUT wrote:

Yep, and Turkey is getting one in 2019, claiming that it is a light carrier and that it could potentially carry F-35Bs or whatever they develop themselves.

The Algerians also got themselves a development of the Italian San Giorgio class amphib. It seems like most of the Mediterranean nations are arming up with these kind of ships.

My bad - I thought you were talking about the French. I didn't know the Turks were getting a Juan Carlos - or about the Algerians. Got any links?

Cheers

The wiki page has sufficient details on the acquisition by Turkey of the LHD.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TCG_Anadolu

I've also seen reports they are seeking a second vessel.

Unlike the Juan Carlos the Algerian modified San Giorgio-class are not fixed wing capable similar to the Mistrals.
http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... ogram.html

Dutchy wrote:

Is Turkey seriously thinking to develop a fighter with VSTOL capability? That would be very expensive, far cheaper to buy the F-35B.

As per what I wrote in the opening post they are considering, if denied the F-35B, a STOVL aircraft possibly designed with Russia and based loosely around the Yak-141. That is obviously a long term project...

Thanks!

VSMUT wrote:

Kiwirob wrote:

VSMUT wrote:

Tripoli is already some 1400 km from Turkey, which is already stretching the F-16, and Somalia is completely out of reach by the Turkish AF if they can't rely on allied bases. Italy has 2 carriers and 3 helicopter carriers (and building 1 new carrier and 3 new LHD/LPDs) that more or less stay in the Mediterranean anyway, so why not a single big one for Turkey?

To use one effectively ie having one available at all times they really need 2 of them. A stobar version of CVF would be a nice idea, I'm sure BAE would happily sell the design and accept a fat check to modify it.

True, but then France managed with just 1 for ages. They also have the Juan Carlos class coming at some point too, so they will sorta have a second less capable carrier.

France aren’t managing with one carrier, the navy have been begging for a second one since forever. Why the France really need is two new carriers and to scrap CdG.

Dutchy wrote:

Is Turkey seriously thinking to develop a fighter with VSTOL capability? That would be very expensive, far cheaper to buy the F-35B.

If you believe them, quite possibly. I for one wouldn't want to bet on it, even if the Russians decide to lend a hand and resuscitate the Yak-141. They will have one, maybe two Juan Carlos', hardly enough to justify an entire fleet of unique STOVL fighters.

There is also the talk about second hand USMC Harriers:
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/16 ... -to-follow

Kiwirob wrote:

France aren’t managing with one carrier, the navy have been begging for a second one since forever. Why the France really need is two new carriers and to scrap CdG.

They achieved all that the politicians asked from them with the current setup.

Why!!!???? Do they also plan on deploying the rest of the support ships? Carriers are one big fat target without some screening....

I can't imagine that they would go any other route than to pay China for the plans for the Type 001A and then build it themselves. Striking out on their own and designing their own STOBAR carrier of that size as a first effort would be madness and take a decade or more.

LightningZ71 wrote:

I can't imagine that they would go any other route than to pay China for the plans for the Type 001A and then build it themselves. Striking out on their own and designing their own STOBAR carrier of that size as a first effort would be madness and take a decade or more.

Turks scrapped three Invincible-class aircraft carriers. We can assume they have made pretty detailed plans of a STOBAR carrier.
Granted, Invincible was 210 m long, rather than 300 m, but 300 m might be more of a slogan, rather than a goal

bhill wrote:

Why!!!???? Do they also plan on deploying the rest of the support ships? Carriers are one big fat target without some screening....

They are buying 4-6 TF2000 class air defence frigates, a new fleet replenishment ship, 8 MILGEM corvettes, 4 TF100 class frigates and 6 Type 214 AIP submarines. They also upgraded the OHPs quite significantly, among other things with a Mk.41 VLS system up front similar to the Australian variants.

Phosphorus wrote:

Turks scrapped three Invincible-class aircraft carriers. We can assume they have made pretty detailed plans of a STOBAR carrier.
Granted, Invincible was 210 m long, rather than 300 m, but 300 m might be more of a slogan, rather than a goal

Forget the Invincibles, the Juan Carlos/Anadolu is being built in Turkey, the Spaniards having transferred technology and blueprints to them.

VSMUT wrote:

Forget the Invincibles, the Juan Carlos/Anadolu is being built in Turkey, the Spaniards having transferred technology and blueprints to them.

What’s really stupid is they aren’t building the upgraded and improved Australia Juan Carlos they are building the original, they are even using the same suppliers and paying for outdated equipment to be remanufactured rather than using the equipment used in the Aussie ships. It’s pure madness.

Not using Australian upgraded version may be madness for you, but very reasonable for us as the money stays in the country. Turkey is redesigning everything according to its needs, using its own manufacturers. What Spain provides is basically the frame design of the ship.

You’re building an inferior vessel to what it could be, you didn’t just buy the design you’re also buying into the existing supply chain, but instead of getting the latest kit you’re starting back at the base line.

They are starting from the technology and equipment that they can produce and maintain themselves. That's the point. And, while it may not have the bells and whistles of the Australian improved design, if it meets their tactical and strategic needs, then it's good enough for the mission.

For the 300M STOBAR ship though, that's a fairly large departure from what they currently have. If they want it up and running in the next decade, they have to take a shortcut somewhere. That shortcut will likely be to buy the 001A design, which China has already signaled is not something that they are going to build more of, opting to go their own home-grown supercarrier design for new ships. The deal works for everyone. China makes money from the sale. Turkey gets a ship sooner that has had a lot of the bug worked out of it. If this deal works out for them both, I can see possible future sales to other countries. Brazil is still kicking around the idea of a new carrier. There are other opportunities.