CFWAD
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Canada looks to replace ageing VIP Transport

Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:35 pm

Seems about time to replace the ex-Wardair 'CanForce One'.

Up until the recent Boeing spat, some end of the line B763s would have looked good. Perhaps they follow other countries (in particular fellow Commonwealth countries GBR and AUS) and go for the military version of the A330.

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/politics/can-force-one-replacement-1.4558838
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aircanadaa330
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Re: Canada looks to replace ageing VIP Transport

Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:08 pm

A380?

Seriously though, I’m putting my money on the A330. I highly doubt they will buy new.
Cheers;
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Canada looks to replace ageing VIP Transport

Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:09 pm

Are they also going to replace all the A310 (5), including the tankers?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
WIederling
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Re: Canada looks to replace ageing VIP Transport

Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:13 pm

aircanadaa330 wrote:
A380?

Seriously though, I’m putting my money on the A330. I highly doubt they will buy new.


Germany swapped (some of) their ex Interflug A310 out for ( ex LH?) A340.
Perfect frame for the task.
Murphy is an optimist
 
aircanadaa330
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Re: Canada looks to replace ageing VIP Transport

Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:06 pm

WIederling wrote:
aircanadaa330 wrote:
A380?

Seriously though, I’m putting my money on the A330. I highly doubt they will buy new.


Germany swapped (some of) their ex Interflug A310 out for ( ex LH?) A340.
Perfect frame for the task.

True, does Germany use the A340s for inflight refuelling?
Cheers;
 
WIederling
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Re: Canada looks to replace ageing VIP Transport

Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:03 am

aircanadaa330 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
aircanadaa330 wrote:
A380?

Seriously though, I’m putting my money on the A330. I highly doubt they will buy new.


Germany swapped (some of) their ex Interflug A310 out for ( ex LH?) A340.
Perfect frame for the task.

True, does Germany use the A340s for inflight refuelling?


inflight refuelling?
only the payload :-)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Konrad_Ad ... ircraft%29
( 3 A310 taken over from Interflug no2 A310 was back up, no3 is in regular airline config.)

The "grey" German MRT(T) were not used for civil government transport.
see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A310_MRTT
they see quite some use in the MedEvac and HumHelp role.
Murphy is an optimist
 
WIederling
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Re: Canada looks to replace ageing VIP Transport

Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:52 am

aircanadaa330 wrote:
A380?
.

Cheaply available and you can snitch on hotel cost abroad.
Murphy is an optimist
 
YIMBY
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Re: Canada looks to replace ageing VIP Transport

Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:12 pm

For government VIP transport CSeries is definitely enough.

If they have other military purposes, it may be another thing, but a democratic country does not need anything bigger to boost the national ego.
 
cumulushumilis
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Re: Canada looks to replace ageing VIP Transport

Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:27 pm

My betting money is on the A-330. Keep in mind this VIP bird also is sometimes used in the strategic lift role. Although not as much as the other four.
 
Andre3K
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Re: Canada looks to replace ageing VIP Transport

Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:01 pm

It's 99% for sure going to be an A330. But wouldn't it be crazy if they downsized and went with a bunch of CS300's?
 
SamTheGeek
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Re: Canada looks to replace ageing VIP Transport

Sat Mar 03, 2018 4:59 pm

Andre3K wrote:
It's 99% for sure going to be an A330. But wouldn't it be crazy if they downsized and went with a bunch of CS300's?


Don't they already have a few CL-604 for this role? The big plane is for intercontinental flying on state trips, unlike Air Force One it isn't used domestically (as the PM travels with a much smaller staff than POTUS). IIRC, it has even been used on trips to KADW
 
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Slug71
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Re: Canada looks to replace ageing VIP Transport

Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:55 pm

They could go with the A330 MRTT and fit it in a VIP configuration like Australia does.
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Canada looks to replace ageing VIP Transport

Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:10 pm

cumulushumilis wrote:
Keep in mind this VIP bird also is sometimes used in the strategic lift role. Although not as much as the other four.

I hear this is not yet spoken for..... :listen: .....

https://www.flickr.com/photos/146519169 ... 171457228/


And there could be five others which might be looking for a home :!: :cheerful:
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
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kc135topboom
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Re: Canada looks to replace ageing VIP Transport

Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:41 pm

The A-330 is way to big for Canada. The best new build airframe available would be a B-767-2C for the VIP, and 4 KC-46s without the Boom Air Refueling systems, perhaps a "B" model, just keeping the centerline drogue system and the WARPs.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Canada looks to replace ageing VIP Transport

Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:18 am

kc135topboom wrote:
The A-330 is way to big for Canada. The best new build airframe available would be a B-767-2C for the VIP, and 4 KC-46s without the Boom Air Refueling systems, perhaps a "B" model, just keeping the centerline drogue system and the WARPs.


Why is it too big? Doesn't seem to be for a number of countries. And don't the F-35's get the boom system?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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kc135topboom
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Re: Canada looks to replace ageing VIP Transport

Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:45 am

yes, but the F-35 sale is not certain. RCAF also has C-17s that boom refuels. The B-767-2C/KC-46 is much closer in size to the current CC-150s, and they work just fine for the RCAF.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Canada looks to replace ageing VIP Transport

Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:55 am

kc135topboom wrote:
The A-330 is way to big for Canada. The best new build airframe available would be a B-767-2C for the VIP, and 4 KC-46s without the Boom Air Refueling systems, perhaps a "B" model, just keeping the centerline drogue system and the WARPs.


Unlike in the US, the cost of the aircraft will be a major consideration. So buying new, I don't see it happening. As for size, A330 and 767 are not that different.

But clearly we're talking about 2 separate things, VIP transport and military planes (tankers).

YIMBY wrote:
For government VIP transport CSeries is definitely enough.

If they have other military purposes, it may be another thing, but a democratic country does not need anything bigger to boost the national ego.


Is there a CJ version of the CSeries, with additional fuel tanks and the like ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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Slug71
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Re: Canada looks to replace ageing VIP Transport

Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:29 am

kc135topboom wrote:
The A-330 is way to big for Canada. The best new build airframe available would be a B-767-2C for the VIP, and 4 KC-46s without the Boom Air Refueling systems, perhaps a "B" model, just keeping the centerline drogue system and the WARPs.


A Boeing product would be a hard sell to Canada currently. Given the relationship between Airbus and BBD now, I'd say this is Airbus's order to lose. The A330 MRTT fits the bill well here since Australia already uses a KC-30A in a VIP configuration as needed. Though they may have one permanently configured for VIP now.
 
bunumuring
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Re: Canada looks to replace ageing VIP Transport

Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:16 am

Hey guys,
Could some of the Air Canada A330-300s be bought and converted into some form of MRTT/VIP?
Or Air Canada 767-300ERs be likewise purchased and converted?
A couple of nations have already done the latter and we here in Australia are converting two ex-Qantas A330s (albeit the -200 model) into KC-30s...
I would fully expect a small fleet of CSeries to be eventually purchased by the RCAF for general transport and VIP duties, to supplement a few larger VIP jets.
Cheers,
Bunumuring
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WIederling
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Re: Canada looks to replace ageing VIP Transport

Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:29 pm

kc135topboom wrote:
The A-330 is way to big for Canada. The best new build airframe available would be a B-767-2C for the VIP, and 4 KC-46s without the Boom Air Refueling systems, perhaps a "B" model, just keeping the centerline drogue system and the WARPs.


Do you really think that after Boeing went Dynamite Fishing in Canada that that is a viable "preferred choice" solution?
Murphy is an optimist
 
cumulushumilis
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Re: Canada looks to replace ageing VIP Transport

Mon Mar 05, 2018 5:05 pm

Back to the original topic at hand. The 5 A310s purchased in the early 90s were 100 percent political and designed to keep Canadian Airlines afloat who inherited a very young costly fleet of A310s from Wardair. For the the first 15-20 years, the Polaris fleet lacked tanker capabilities and the during this time the tanker role fell onto 435 Squadron and with the 4 C-130Hs configured for tactical AAR. There is a requirement however, the B-767-2C/KC-46 is overkill whereas the KC-30 fills the role of a strategic transport, VIP transport, and tanker at a lower cost. Due to political blowback its almost a guarantee that the next VIP bird becomes less "VIP" ends up having a basic cabin may be with addition ot some J class seats. What is even more interesting is what does Canada do when it loses its tactical AAR capability? The Hercs are eventually going to be on their way out the door. Do they modify a few J models or abandon the capability all together? Mostly used now for AAR training..

Keeping one or two C series on hand and having an orphan fleets seems to be a bit of overkill in terms of cost and capability. Better off to replace the current challenger fleet if they want to move to the C-series.
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Canada looks to replace ageing VIP Transport

Mon Mar 05, 2018 6:58 pm

I'll bring again my ironic touch here; why not use the usual/historical USAF/Boeing hat trick...

We should just issue a RFP with detailed specs/capacities/range/MTOW/OEW corresponding EXACTLY to a CS500. R&D/certification all paid for by the RCAF.

In the 60s, the RCAF Transport Command had such a VIP/troop carrying transport fleet, locally made by Canadair:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... atwick.jpg (a non swing tail CL-44) This one doing the Trenton / Gatwick / Lahr run.
 
Ozair
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Re: Canada looks to replace ageing VIP Transport

Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:22 pm

Slug71 wrote:
The A330 MRTT fits the bill well here since Australia already uses a KC-30A in a VIP configuration as needed.

This is my bet as well. A used A332 would be perfect for what Canada needs. Perhaps modified for tanker duties but not essential depending upon the amount of VIP work.
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Canada looks to replace ageing VIP Transport

Mon Mar 05, 2018 10:30 pm

Ozair wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
The A330 MRTT fits the bill well here since Australia already uses a KC-30A in a VIP configuration as needed.

This is my bet as well. A used A332 would be perfect for what Canada needs. Perhaps modified for tanker duties but not essential depending upon the amount of VIP work.
And sub-contract the operation/maintenance to AirTransat... (that could supplement some of theirs as a back-up)
 
ExMilitaryEng
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Re: Canada looks to replace ageing VIP Transport

Mon Mar 05, 2018 11:40 pm

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
And sub-contract the operation/maintenance to AirTransat...
Jokes aside, are there still private contractors in the air refueling business? (I recall our old air refuellers (B707) were purchased by one of them)
 
Ozair
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Re: Canada looks to replace ageing VIP Transport

Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:02 am

ExMilitaryEng wrote:
ExMilitaryEng wrote:
And sub-contract the operation/maintenance to AirTransat...
Jokes aside, are there still private contractors in the air refueling business? (I recall our old air refuellers (B707) were purchased by one of them)

Yes, RAAF has used Omega a number of times. http://www.omegaairrefueling.com/
 
WIederling
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Re: Canada looks to replace ageing VIP Transport

Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:01 am

Ozair wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
The A330 MRTT fits the bill well here since Australia already uses a KC-30A in a VIP configuration as needed.

This is my bet as well. A used A332 would be perfect for what Canada needs. Perhaps modified for tanker duties but not essential depending upon the amount of VIP work.


do the current A310 "Polaris" frames actually have the full MRTT complement?
( i.e. the full complement of pallet based stuffings: <empty for freight>, Y seating, simple MedEvac, MiniHospital MedEvac ... )
Murphy is an optimist
 
Ozair
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Re: Canada looks to replace ageing VIP Transport

Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:58 am

WIederling wrote:
do the current A310 "Polaris" frames actually have the full MRTT complement?
( i.e. the full complement of pallet based stuffings: <empty for freight>, Y seating, simple MedEvac, MiniHospital MedEvac ... )

The RCAF website says the following,

A multi-purpose, twin-engine, long-range jet aircraft that can be converted for passenger, freight or medical transport, or a combination of these configurations. Can also be configured to carry VIP passengers or be fitted as a tanker for strategic air-to air refuelling. The Polaris can reach a speed of Mach 0.84 (1029 km/h) carrying 194 passengers or a load of 32,000 kg.

http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/air ... c-150.page
 
WIederling
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Re: Canada looks to replace ageing VIP Transport

Tue Mar 06, 2018 9:59 am

Ozair wrote:
http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/aircraft-current/cc-150.page


that is the full shebang then. :-)

Afaik nobody ordered this yet for the A330 MRTT frames? All are just tanker or tanker/pax seating combis.
Did anyone actually order a freight door on their A330 MRTT ?
Murphy is an optimist
 
Ozair
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Re: Canada looks to replace ageing VIP Transport

Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:44 am

WIederling wrote:

that is the full shebang then. :-)

Afaik nobody ordered this yet for the A330 MRTT frames? All are just tanker or tanker/pax seating combis.
Did anyone actually order a freight door on their A330 MRTT ?

In the RAAF case the C-17 is the primary aeromedical transport.

Image

Given the UK and Canada both also operate C-17s that may be their aircraft of choice for the medical role as well.
 
WIederling
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Re: Canada looks to replace ageing VIP Transport

Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:51 am

Ozair wrote:
........... C-17s .......


Apropos for the C-17 ( and other big transports too ) there is a VIP Cage available for secure transport:
http://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/14 ... istan-trip
Murphy is an optimist
 
cumulushumilis
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Re: Canada looks to replace ageing VIP Transport

Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:32 pm

WIederling wrote:
Ozair wrote:
http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/aircraft-current/cc-150.page


that is the full shebang then. :-)

Afaik nobody ordered this yet for the A330 MRTT frames? All are just tanker or tanker/pax seating combis.
Did anyone actually order a freight door on their A330 MRTT ?



That's a great question, Is there not a blister around the nose gear door on the A330 freighter to accommodate and extended length as the A330 is not level for containers?
 
WIederling
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Re: Canada looks to replace ageing VIP Transport

Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:43 pm

cumulushumilis wrote:
That's a great question, Is there not a blister around the nose gear door on the A330 freighter to accommodate and extended length as the A330 is not level for containers?


The A330-200F freighter as built by Airbus has the blister.
All other A330 with a freight door ( prominently the P2F conversions ) seem to cope as they are.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Canada looks to replace ageing VIP Transport

Thu Mar 15, 2018 5:10 am

kc135topboom wrote:
The A-330 is way to big for Canada. The best new build airframe available would be a B-767-2C for the VIP

While not as large as others, they also do travel with a considerable entourage to various countries in the world on state or trade missions. The A338's range and capacity make it uniquely suitable and a good step up from the A310 for the role. And considering it would be in service for a long time, the more modern powerplants ensure that it stays relevant during its stint. Airbus helped the CSeries through a tough spot...maybe Canada could return the favor and throw the A338 a lifeline :?:


Image
https://www.flightglobal.com/assets/get ... emid=73135


Doubtless Airbus would appreciate the gesture and take pride in providing the dedicated Head of State transport...so much so that the airframer might offer them a very sweet deal on the other two A338s which are assigned production slots. :highfive: :veryhappy:
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
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flyingclrs727
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Re: Canada looks to replace ageing VIP Transport

Wed Mar 28, 2018 10:20 pm

CFWAD wrote:
Seems about time to replace the ex-Wardair 'CanForce One'.

Up until the recent Boeing spat, some end of the line B763s would have looked good. Perhaps they follow other countries (in particular fellow Commonwealth countries GBR and AUS) and go for the military version of the A330.

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/politics/can-force-one-replacement-1.4558838


Why buy a brand new plane that sits on the ground most of the time. Unless there is a need for midair refueling with the PM on board, why get the A330 MRTT? A gently used A330-200 would be ideal for an overseas capable VIP plane.
 
Powerslide
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Re: Canada looks to replace ageing VIP Transport

Thu Mar 29, 2018 6:09 pm

It would be a disgrace to the military if the government got a new transport fleet before the fighters are replaced.
 
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Slug71
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Re: Canada looks to replace ageing VIP Transport

Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:05 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
CFWAD wrote:
Seems about time to replace the ex-Wardair 'CanForce One'.

Up until the recent Boeing spat, some end of the line B763s would have looked good. Perhaps they follow other countries (in particular fellow Commonwealth countries GBR and AUS) and go for the military version of the A330.

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/politics/can-force-one-replacement-1.4558838


Why buy a brand new plane that sits on the ground most of the time. Unless there is a need for midair refueling with the PM on board, why get the A330 MRTT? A gently used A330-200 would be ideal for an overseas capable VIP plane.


It can be used as a tanker/transport when not used for VIP. The VIP outfit can be Pelletized. At least I that's how I understand the RAAF makes use of a couple of their KC-30s.
 
SkyGrunt
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Re: Canada looks to replace ageing VIP Transport

Wed Apr 11, 2018 8:36 pm

flyingclrs727 wrote:
CFWAD wrote:
Seems about time to replace the ex-Wardair 'CanForce One'.

Up until the recent Boeing spat, some end of the line B763s would have looked good. Perhaps they follow other countries (in particular fellow Commonwealth countries GBR and AUS) and go for the military version of the A330.

http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/politics/can-force-one-replacement-1.4558838


Why buy a brand new plane that sits on the ground most of the time. Unless there is a need for midair refueling with the PM on board, why get the A330 MRTT? A gently used A330-200 would be ideal for an overseas capable VIP plane.
The A310s hardly sit around. They are gone all the time. Canada does not have a dedicated VIP plane just a airlift pax plane painted white. We also need the MRTT capability not just for whatever fighter we buy, but also coalition/NATO interoperability. The 310s are not terribly old but falling apart from hard use. A fancy paint job just glosses over a pretty sad fleet. FWIW I can't see Canada getting anything other than the 330. The NEO would be fun and all but the conversions are for the CEO and Airbus isn't about to develop it for 5-7 plane order.

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