Scorpius
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New weapon. Russia.

Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:16 pm

"Sarmat"
Image
Currently, the Ministry of defence together with the enterprises of the rocket and space industry has begun an active phase of testing a new missile complex with a heavy Intercontinental missile. We called it "Sarmat".
This missile system will replace the complex "P-36M", created in the Soviet Union.
But the capabilities of the Sarmat missile are much higher. With a weight of over 200 tons, it has a short active section of the flight, which makes it difficult to intercept by means of missile DEFENSE. The range of the new heavy rocket, the number and power of combat units – more than the "P-36M". "Sarmat" will be equipped with a wide range of high-power nuclear ammunition, including hypersonic, and the most modern systems to overcome missile DEFENSE.
The "P-36M" range-11 thousand kilometers, the new system has virtually no restrictions on the range.
It is able to attack targets through both the North and the South pole. "Sarmat" - this is a very formidable weapon, because of its characteristics, no, even promising system ABOUT it is not a hindrance.

Cruise missile unlimited range of a nuclear power plant
Image
Small-sized heavy-duty nuclear power plant, which is located in the body of a cruise missile such as our newest missile X-101 air – based or American "Tomahawk", but provides dozens of times-dozens of times! - long range flight, which is virtually unlimited. Low-flying stealth cruise missile carrying a nuclear warhead with practically unlimited range, unpredictable flight path and can overcome the boundaries of interception and is invulnerable to all existing and future systems such as missile defense and air defense.
At the end of 2017, a successful launch of the latest Russian cruise missile with a nuclear power plant took place at the Central test site of the Russian Federation. During the flight, the power plant reached the specified capacity, provided the required level of traction.
The launch of the missile and a set of ground tests make it possible to proceed to the creation of a fundamentally new type of weapon – a strategic nuclear weapons complex with a missile equipped with a nuclear power plant.
Shows the bypass lines of defense. Since the range is not limited, it can maneuver as long as you like.
As you know, no one in the world has anything like this yet.
Image

Hypersonic aircraft missile complex " Dagger"
Image
The most important stage of modern weapons systems was the creation of a high-precision hypersonic aviation missile system, as you have already understood for sure, which has no analogues in the world. Its tests have been successfully completed, and, moreover, since December 1 last year, the complex began to carry out experimental combat duty at the airfields of the southern military district.
The unique flight performance of the high-speed carrier aircraft allows the missile to be delivered to the drop point in minutes. At the same time, the rocket, flying at a hypersonic speed exceeding the speed of sound by ten times, also manoeuvres on all parts of the flight path, which allows it also to overcome all existing and, I think, promising systems of anti-aircraft and missile defense, delivering to the target a range of more than two thousand kilometers of nuclear and conventional warheads. We called this system the dagger.


System "Status-6"
Russia has developed unmanned underwater vehicles that can move at very great depths, and on Intercontinental range. The speed is a multiple of the speed of submarines, the most modern torpedoes and all kinds of surface ships.
They have low noise, high maneuverability and almost invulnerable to the enemy. The means that can resist them, to date, the world simply does not exist.
Unmanned underwater vehicles can be equipped with both conventional and nuclear munitions. This will enable us to hit a wide range of targets, including aircraft carrier groups, coastal fortifications and infrastructure.
In December 2017, the long-term test cycle of the innovative nuclear power plant to equip this Autonomous unmanned vehicle was fully completed.
The nuclear plant has a uniquely small size and at the same time ultrahigh power. With a volume of one hundred times less than that of modern nuclear submarines, it has more power and 200 times less time to enter combat mode, that is, the maximum power.
The results of the tests gave us the opportunity to start creating a fundamentally new type of strategic weapon equipped with high-capacity nuclear ammunition.

Missile with hypersonic cruise planning unit
A real technological breakthrough is the creation of a promising strategic missile system with a fundamentally new combat equipment – a planning winged unit, the tests of which are also successfully completed.
This system differs from the existing types of combat equipment in its ability to fly in dense layers of the atmosphere at Intercontinental range at hypersonic speeds exceeding the Mach number by more than 20 times.
When driving to the goal planning winged unit conducting deep maneuver as on the side (and a few thousand kilometers) and tall. This makes it absolutely invulnerable to any means of air and missile defense.
The use of new composite materials allowed to solve the problem of a long-term controlled flight of the planning winged block practically in the conditions of plasma formation. He goes to the target like a meteorite, like a burning balloon, like a fireball. The temperature on the surface of the product reaches 1600-2000 degrees Celsius, the winged unit is reliably controlled.
For obvious reasons we cannot show a true image of the true appearance of this product. Even that makes a big difference today. I think everyone understands that. But I assure you, all this is available and works well. Moreover, Russian industrial enterprises have begun mass production of this system, another new type of strategic weapon. We called it "Avangard".

Combat laser systems
Image
Since last year, the troops had already received military laser systems.

All data is taken from the speech of Vladimir Putin during the annual official message of the President of the Russian Federation to the Federal address. According to Putin, the development of these types of weapons is a forced response to a military threat from the United States and the NATO bloc, including in response to the us withdrawal from the anti-ballistic missile Treaty and the emergence of missile DEFENSE systems in Europe.
 
salttee
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:27 pm

It's interesting to see that the Russian propaganda outlets are so much in sync with each other. I congratulate you guys on your coordination. And Scorpius, you should get credit for leading the charge. This is one of yours from a couple of days ago:
Scorpius wrote:
And then from your cities will only slag and ashes.
 
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Mortyman
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:39 pm

A video in this article from Norwegian Broadcasting Corporation of the new missile here where Florida is the target ...

https://www.nrk.no/urix/putin-skryter-a ... 1.13940154
 
WIederling
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Thu Mar 01, 2018 2:47 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Cruise missile unlimited range of a nuclear power plant

back when:

the Cruise Missile:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersoni ... de_Missile
the engine:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Pluto

essentially kind of a "Warlock's Wheel" device.
Murphy is an optimist
 
estorilm
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:01 pm

We are doomed!

Has everyone forgotten that the MAD concept STILL APPLIES when one country has an increased probability of their weapons "getting through" enemy defenses?

Nothing about the concept has changed, since Russia would still be completely incapable of stopping land, air, and sea-based nuclear strike options from allies.

I hope we're not getting back into the technical races, developing even more effective weapons while forgetting that no one is still able to press the button without being erased off the map. :lol:

Technology is great, but that fact will always remain.
 
Scorpius
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:01 pm

WIederling wrote:
Scorpius wrote:
Cruise missile unlimited range of a nuclear power plant

back when:

the Cruise Missile:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supersoni ... de_Missile
the engine:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Pluto

essentially kind of a "Warlock's Wheel" device.

previously, all these systems were not implemented in the end. If it turned out now - it could be the beginning of a new era of development of aircraft, including space purposes.
 
Scorpius
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:04 pm

estorilm wrote:
We are doomed!

Has everyone forgotten that the MAD concept STILL APPLIES when one country has an increased probability of their weapons "getting through" enemy defenses?

Nothing about the concept has changed, since Russia would still be completely incapable of stopping land, air, and sea-based nuclear strike options from allies.

I hope we're not getting back into the technical races, developing even more effective weapons while forgetting that no one is still able to press the button without being erased off the map. :lol:

Technology is great, but that fact will always remain.


Russia's defense doctrine is based on the inevitability of retaliatory strike in case of an attack on Russia or its allies. That is not a first strike, retaliatory strike.
 
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Tugger
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:08 pm

Scorpius wrote:
, the development of these types of weapons is a forced response to a military threat from the United States and the NATO bloc, including in response to the us withdrawal from the anti-ballistic missile Treaty and the emergence of missile DEFENSE systems in Europe.

An interesting set of new weapons, but apparently not of much use. If your last statement is correct Russia is just wasting money then if they are to defend against NATO and the US. Since neither will ever attack Russia such that any such weapon would need to be used.

The one thing I will note is that these are "final weapons" ones used to destroy an enemy, and we have had those for decades now so there is nothing really that new. The range may be impressive but Russia has been able to destroy the USA and NATO with nukes for a long time now so it is really nothing that new. I actually think this is just election campaigning by Putin to seem strong and tough.

You attack and destroy us, and in turn you will be attacked and destroyed as well. I had thought/hoped we had moved beyond that but I guess not. Sad.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:11 pm

Russia has been complaining about the West's missile defense systems for years. And they've stated multiple times that since they can't build anything similar themselves, they'll improve the offensive capabilities instead. And this is the result.
 
Scorpius
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Thu Mar 01, 2018 3:22 pm

Tugger wrote:
An interesting set of new weapons, but apparently not of much use. If your last statement is correct Russia is just wasting money then if they are to defend against NATO and the US. Since neither will ever attack Russia such that any such weapon would need to be used.

The one thing I will note is that these are "final weapons" ones used to destroy an enemy, and we have had those for decades now so there is nothing really that new. The range may be impressive but Russia has been able to destroy the USA and NATO with nukes for a long time now so it is really nothing that new. I actually think this is just election campaigning by Putin to seem strong and tough.

You attack and destroy us, and in turn you will be attacked and destroyed as well. I had thought/hoped we had moved beyond that but I guess not. Sad.

Tugg

I have repeatedly said that the level of relations with Russia is the fault of Western countries and the result of their actions towards Russia. However, we will leave this subject. I consider in Putin's statement today the potential for a new era to begin in the development of aircraft. Compact nuclear facility and hypersonic controlled flight - this can lead to the emergence of entirely new tools, including the means of delivery of cargo into orbit.
 
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Tugger
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:22 pm

Scorpius wrote:
today the potential for a new era to begin in the development of aircraft. Compact nuclear facility and hypersonic controlled flight - this can lead to the emergence of entirely new tools, including the means of delivery of cargo into orbit.

Great, lets hope so, weapons are a waste of money and resources essentially when one is not under actual threat. So more power to you, I hope Russia can develop its flight and space capabilities once again. It once lead in that and now does not, putting emphasis and resources there would be better and more useful than what was presented yesterday.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
VSMUT
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Thu Mar 01, 2018 5:27 pm

estorilm wrote:
We are doomed!

Has everyone forgotten that the MAD concept STILL APPLIES when one country has an increased probability of their weapons "getting through" enemy defenses?

Nothing about the concept has changed, since Russia would still be completely incapable of stopping land, air, and sea-based nuclear strike options from allies.

I hope we're not getting back into the technical races, developing even more effective weapons while forgetting that no one is still able to press the button without being erased off the map. :lol:

Technology is great, but that fact will always remain.


No offense, but the concept of mutually assured destruction has been skewed in the recent years by the American missile defence shield in Eastern Europe, and now also in parts of Asia (officially to defend against North Korea, but that's not far from Russia either). The way I see it, these new Russian systems are meant to level the playing field and restore the threat of MAD against the US again, not to give Russia the ability to knock out the US without risk of retribution. The Russians have complained loudly about this ever since the missile shield project was launched, and it isn't without reason that during the cold war treaties were put in place limiting the number of missile defenses each side could have. In this case, it is the Americans who disturbed the balance some 15 years ago (to protect against Iranian attacks), and the Russians are just now beginning to react.

There is obviously a lot of hype/propaganda involved, but really, US defence manufacturers are no better in this regard.
 
o0OOO0oChris
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Thu Mar 01, 2018 6:25 pm

Interesting article:
https://www.nextbigfuture.com/2018/03/r ... ot-us.html
The editor-in-chief of the Kremlin-backed RT news outlet tweeted “Elon Musk my ass” in response to the new strategic nuclear weapons, poking fun at America’s obsession with private space companies like Space X. This seems to show that Russia envies Elon Musk and SpaceX ability to dominate news with videos and promotions of SpaceX rockets.

What a sad development. Putin spends big bucks on the military side to win the power showcase game, only to put the result of this money pit into some silo`s and hide them away hoping never to use them.

Lots of new stuff to only show off and store/maintain forever, while the commercial rocket business side, once a successful means of foreign currency income and export hit, is lacking funds, reliability and innovation badly.

The result is obvious: international commercial orders for the useflul and budget-relevant rocket business stalling.

But it looks like it pays out. Despite wasting ton`s of money and loosing good business opportunities, showing off military strengh is what get`s the voters attention and approval. What a shame.

Excellent news for elon musk. The money to catch up on him is already spent in a useless way, at least in russia.
 
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Tugger
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Thu Mar 01, 2018 11:07 pm

Regarding the nuclear engined cruise missile, what process is powering it? What kind of engine would it use? I am guessing the only one that would be practical for it would be a " direct cycle" one that spews nuclear radiation into the air as it is the lightest one. Other nuclear engine types have a lot of additional weight and would seem to be unsuited to this. I would also think it would have minimal shielding (I'm guessing the control electronics would need to be).

I supposed a direct type wouldn't matter as this weapon is basically only going to be used if things go terribly wrong in the world.

But does anyone else have more options as to what would power such a weapon?

BTW, I do think most of the weapons presented are just "PowerPoint weapons".

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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Tugger
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:11 am

This article discusses the engine options decently:
https://www.npr.org/sections/parallels/ ... mited-rang

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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cpd
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:37 am

Scorpius wrote:
Cruise missile unlimited range of a nuclear power plant
Image
Small-sized heavy-duty nuclear power plant, which is located in the body of a cruise missile such as our newest missile X-101 air – based or American "Tomahawk", but provides dozens of times-dozens of times! - long range flight, which is virtually unlimited. Low-flying stealth cruise missile carrying a nuclear warhead with practically unlimited range, unpredictable flight path and can overcome the boundaries of interception and is invulnerable to all existing and future systems such as missile defense and air defense.
At the end of 2017, a successful launch of the latest Russian cruise missile with a nuclear power plant took place at the Central test site of the Russian Federation. During the flight, the power plant reached the specified capacity, provided the required level of traction.
The launch of the missile and a set of ground tests make it possible to proceed to the creation of a fundamentally new type of weapon – a strategic nuclear weapons complex with a missile equipped with a nuclear power plant.
Shows the bypass lines of defense. Since the range is not limited, it can maneuver as long as you like.
As you know, no one in the world has anything like this yet.
Image


This is an old idea, a very old one. The Soviet Union and the USA both experimented with these ideas before and both arrived at the same conclusion, the missile (or plane) would be extremely dangerous if it crashed in ones own territory, along with the exhaust emissions being radioactive. Unacceptable risk to ones own population.

And yet here you are cheering it on like it is the greatest invention since the light bulb.
 
jupiter2
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:02 am

I hope there aren't any living things near or on this testing range, because with radiation spewing out the rear end of cruise missiles flying around, they won't be alive for much longer. Seems like we've timed warped back to the 1950's.
 
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Tugger
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:01 am

cpd wrote:
This is an old idea, a very old one. The Soviet Union and the USA both experimented with these ideas before and both arrived at the same conclusion, the missile (or plane) would be extremely dangerous if it crashed in ones own territory, along with the exhaust emissions being radioactive. Unacceptable risk to ones own population.

Makes me wonder if this incident is connected:
Russian nuclear incident http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1378533
Any test of a nuclear powered missile would have an impact that, while not resulting is a nuclear blast, could probably still result in a fairly serious release of nuclear material.

Not saying it is for certain or anything, we don't know of course, just hypothesizing.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
Scorpius
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:09 am

Tugger wrote:
cpd wrote:
This is an old idea, a very old one. The Soviet Union and the USA both experimented with these ideas before and both arrived at the same conclusion, the missile (or plane) would be extremely dangerous if it crashed in ones own territory, along with the exhaust emissions being radioactive. Unacceptable risk to ones own population.

Makes me wonder if this incident is connected:
Russian nuclear incident http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1378533
Any test of a nuclear powered missile would have an impact that, while not resulting is a nuclear blast, could probably still result in a fairly serious release of nuclear material.

Not saying it is for certain or anything, we don't know of course, just hypothesizing.

Tugg

the reactor can also be used to power an electric turbo-fan engine
 
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Faro
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:27 am

Scorpius wrote:

the reactor can also be used to power an electric turbo-fan engine



Good God how (in)efficient is that?...and how heavy the thing would be...though weight would theoretically not be a consideration, given the nuclear power option...blunt, brute force engineering, chunky, dreadnought aeronautics...Soviet Russia is back...Soviets were never really known for lean, elegant concepts or designs...

I wonder how good component reliability can be on a cruise missile which can fly for days on end?...fair chance a substantial proportion of them would just plunk into the ocean due to a faulty weld, mis-rigged actuators or a loose screw...don't forget alcoholism is still a very major blight on Russia's workers and labour productivity...Russian men have a life expectancy of 66.5 years, up from a low of around 62 under Yeltsin...when Egypt for example has a male life expectancy of around 67 years now...this is third-world level statistics...quality control is nowhere near Western levels when one talks of high-technology products and processes...and here we are talking of mini nuclear technology...yeah...dream on...


Faro
The chalice not my son
 
Scorpius
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:31 am

Faro wrote:
Scorpius wrote:

the reactor can also be used to power an electric turbo-fan engine



Good God how (in)efficient is that?...and how heavy the thing would be...though weight would theoretically not be a consideration, given the nuclear power option...blunt, brute force engineering, chunky, dreadnought aeronautics...Soviet Russia is back...Soviets were never really known for lean, elegant concepts or designs...

I wonder how good component reliability can be on a cruise missile which can fly for days on end?...fair chance a substantial proportion of them would just plunk into the ocean due to a faulty weld, mis-rigged actuators or a loose screw...don't forget alcoholism is still a very major blight on Russia's workers and labour productivity...Russian men have a life expectancy of 66.5 years, up from a low of around 62 under Yeltsin...when Egypt for example has a male life expectancy of around 67 years now...this is third-world level statistics...quality control is nowhere near Western levels when one talks of high-technology products and processes...and here we are talking of mini nuclear technology...yeah...dream on...


Faro

That for delirium I just read?
 
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Faro
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:43 am

Scorpius wrote:
Faro wrote:
Scorpius wrote:

the reactor can also be used to power an electric turbo-fan engine



Good God how (in)efficient is that?...and how heavy the thing would be...though weight would theoretically not be a consideration, given the nuclear power option...blunt, brute force engineering, chunky, dreadnought aeronautics...Soviet Russia is back...Soviets were never really known for lean, elegant concepts or designs...

I wonder how good component reliability can be on a cruise missile which can fly for days on end?...fair chance a substantial proportion of them would just plunk into the ocean due to a faulty weld, mis-rigged actuators or a loose screw...don't forget alcoholism is still a very major blight on Russia's workers and labour productivity...Russian men have a life expectancy of 66.5 years, up from a low of around 62 under Yeltsin...when Egypt for example has a male life expectancy of around 67 years now...this is third-world level statistics...quality control is nowhere near Western levels when one talks of high-technology products and processes...and here we are talking of mini nuclear technology...yeah...dream on...


Faro


That for delirium I just read?



The wonderful thing about personal (and by extension, political...) freedoms...is that one is not forced to believe anything one doesn't want to...if you believe --or indeed know-- that this is delirium...I will certainly not be the one to force upon you that it is not...

The references on male life expectancy in Russia (and its deterioration from the Soviet era under Yeltsin...and subsequent partial improvement with Putin) are plentiful on the net for you to consult...and believe in or not believe in...that is up to you...and your personal freedom and liberty...


Faro
The chalice not my son
 
WIederling
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 12:20 pm

Tugger wrote:
Regarding the nuclear engined cruise missile, what process is powering it? What kind of engine would it use? I am guessing the only one that would be practical for it would be a " direct cycle" one that spews nuclear radiation into the air as it is the lightest one. Other nuclear engine types have a lot of additional weight and would seem to be unsuited to this. I would also think it would have minimal shielding (I'm guessing the control electronics would need to be).

I supposed a direct type wouldn't matter as this weapon is basically only going to be used if things go terribly wrong in the world.

But does anyone else have more options as to what would power such a weapon?


I'd guess it follows what the US had in mind with project "Pluto" and the "SLAM". ( links to WP pages further up )
unshielded reactor as heat source in a supersonic ramjet engine.
In a way a low flying continuous neutron bomb. Over the top Schrecklichkeit.
Military brass at the time must have worn their wet spots proudly.
Murphy is an optimist
 
tommy1808
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:40 pm

WIederling wrote:
I'd guess it follows what the US had in mind with project "Pluto" and the "SLAM". ( links to WP pages further up )
unshielded reactor as heat source in a supersonic ramjet engine.
In a way a low flying continuous neutron bomb. Over the top Schrecklichkeit.
Military brass at the time must have worn their wet spots proudly.


the Situation in Russia musst be much, much worse than we think when they are already in the "Wunderwaffe" stage of Propaganda....

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
WIederling
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:53 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
the Situation in Russia musst be much, much worse than we think when they are already in the "Wunderwaffe" stage of Propaganda....


IT probably is the correct answer to US moves to "contract reaction times" on the path to a survivable (haha) first strike from the US.
Brinkmanship, Family Atomics.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Balerit
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 2:58 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
I'd guess it follows what the US had in mind with project "Pluto" and the "SLAM". ( links to WP pages further up )
unshielded reactor as heat source in a supersonic ramjet engine.
In a way a low flying continuous neutron bomb. Over the top Schrecklichkeit.
Military brass at the time must have worn their wet spots proudly.


the Situation in Russia musst be much, much worse than we think when they are already in the "Wunderwaffe" stage of Propaganda....

best regards
Thomas


Well, you just have to look at a map depicting all the US missiles and warships that currently have Russia surrounded and you'll see why Russia is feeling a bit claustrophobic.

Image
Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (retired).
 
tommy1808
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:07 pm

Balerit wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
WIederling wrote:
I'd guess it follows what the US had in mind with project "Pluto" and the "SLAM". ( links to WP pages further up )
unshielded reactor as heat source in a supersonic ramjet engine.
In a way a low flying continuous neutron bomb. Over the top Schrecklichkeit.
Military brass at the time must have worn their wet spots proudly.


the Situation in Russia musst be much, much worse than we think when they are already in the "Wunderwaffe" stage of Propaganda....

best regards
Thomas


Well, you just have to look at a map depicting all the US missiles and warships that currently have Russia surrounded and you'll see why Russia is feeling a bit claustrophobic.

Image



In times of intercontinental missiles that is pretty much just mental issue and has not much to do with any threat.

WIederling wrote:
tommy1808 wrote:
the Situation in Russia musst be much, much worse than we think when they are already in the "Wunderwaffe" stage of Propaganda....


IT probably is the correct answer to US moves to "contract reaction times" on the path to a survivable (haha) first strike from the US.
Brinkmanship, Family Atomics.


Thinking there is something like a survivable first strike on the other hand is probably full on bad sh*the crazy.

Best regards
Thomas
 
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Tugger
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:12 pm

WIederling wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Regarding the nuclear engined cruise missile, what process is powering it? What kind of engine would it use? I am guessing the only one that would be practical for it would be a " direct cycle" one that spews nuclear radiation into the air as it is the lightest one. Other nuclear engine types have a lot of additional weight and would seem to be unsuited to this. I would also think it would have minimal shielding (I'm guessing the control electronics would need to be).

I supposed a direct type wouldn't matter as this weapon is basically only going to be used if things go terribly wrong in the world.

But does anyone else have more options as to what would power such a weapon?


I'd guess it follows what the US had in mind with project "Pluto" and the "SLAM". ( links to WP pages further up )
unshielded reactor as heat source in a supersonic ramjet engine.
In a way a low flying continuous neutron bomb. Over the top Schrecklichkeit.
Military brass at the time must have worn their wet spots proudly.

Wow, that is a pretty dense or, to me at least, stupid/meaningless statement?
But I would say (guess?) it doesn't follow the Pluto or SLAM (good googling or your part BTW, mine too, I am very proud of myself) as they were not produced nor used as a weapon system after review found the serious stupidity.... err... flaws with the concept. I.e. that it spews radiation everywhere and is dangerous to everything.

You make some very bizarre post with your attempts to always drag the USA into something and make it appear the US is the one to blame or at fault. But that is your MO so it doesn't surprise much.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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Tugger
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:16 pm

Balerit wrote:
Well, you just have to look at a map depicting all the US missiles and warships that currently have Russia surrounded and you'll see why Russia is feeling a bit claustrophobic.

Image

Well there goes that persecution complex again! You should see all the Chinese flags surround anyone that goes into a store in the USA! My god man, we are surrounded!

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:21 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Thinking there is something like a survivable first strike on the other hand is probably full on bad sh*the crazy.

As I stated in another thread: Such weapons allow dead people to kill other dead people.... Hooray! The dead won!!!

These types of weapons are overall useless to "protect" any nation since if used it means the effective end of the nation as they are so terrible that they can only be reacted to terribly. And that is exactly what MAD is: Escalation to annihilation.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
mmo
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:21 pm

Balerit wrote:

Well, you just have to look at a map depicting all the US missiles and warships that currently have Russia surrounded and you'll see why Russia is feeling a bit claustrophobic.


I think you might be using a very outdated map. There are several "bases' as you sy which are not really bases and to the best of my knowledge there are no MRBM bsed in Europe or Asia. So, you might want to update your source.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:32 pm

Scorpius wrote:
the reactor can also be used to power an electric turbo-fan engine

Yes, it can but it adds significant weight and therefore performance/maneuverability is greatly affected. And at the end the exact same thing happens, the weapon detonates and everything is irradiated. So it really makes very little sense to do it that way.

Again remember, this is for placing a nuclear weapon into another nation. That is a worst case scenario for war.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
Scorpius
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:55 pm

Tugger wrote:
And at the end the exact same thing happens, the weapon detonates and everything is irradiated

it is rather strange to talk about it - at the end a nuclear charge explodes, and irradiation with a couple of kilograms of fuel from the plant is the least of the problems.
 
sharles
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:16 pm

There is something I completely don't get. Russia has more missiles than USA will ever have interceptors, and you probably need multiple interceptors per missile. To me, this just seems like posturing to distract from domestic issues.
 
WIederling
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:51 pm

sharles wrote:
There is something I completely don't get. Russia has more missiles than USA will ever have interceptors, and you probably need multiple interceptors per missile. To me, this just seems like posturing to distract from domestic issues.


The US all the time tries to shorten the available reaction time for Russia.
Objective is to allow a first strike with no immediate retaliation. "overrun".

the presented weapons seem to be designed to frustrate that success by way of a dead man device.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:55 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Tugger wrote:
And at the end the exact same thing happens, the weapon detonates and everything is irradiated

it is rather strange to talk about it - at the end a nuclear charge explodes, and irradiation with a couple of kilograms of fuel from the plant is the least of the problems.

That is exactly what I am saying.

I believe there was a miss-communication, you noted "the reactor can also be used to power an electric turbo-fan engine". What did you mean to communicate with that? Because based on the supposed picture of the missile in flight it would have to be a Direct Air Cycle engine, with the reactor core heating the air sufficiently that it produces the "glowly" trust you see in the picture. If it were an electric turbo fan it would more likely be a closed system since it is only needed to generate electricity to turn the fan. So no glow, no spewing radioactive air. I was trying to say that based on that, since a closed system adds weight (and doesn't match what the picture implies) and the end result is just more nuclear radiation, they would see no need for the added complexity.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:04 pm

WIederling wrote:
sharles wrote:
There is something I completely don't get. Russia has more missiles than USA will ever have interceptors, and you probably need multiple interceptors per missile. To me, this just seems like posturing to distract from domestic issues.


The US all the time tries to shorten the available reaction time for Russia.
Objective is to allow a first strike with no immediate retaliation. "overrun".

the presented weapons seem to be designed to frustrate that success by way of a dead man device.

Ahh WIedering, yes it is all due to the USA as usual. It is nice to rule the world (well your world at least). You have the USA all figured out inside that echo chamber of your mind. That is exactly why we put a limited number of anti-missile systems out there that have no value in what you are claiming as they are vastly outnumbered by Russian missiles.

But it wouldn't be you with out the predictable US bashing.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
Planeflyer
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Fri Mar 02, 2018 8:13 pm

A quedtion for W and all the Russians participating; do you really think all this is directed at just the US?

Russia knows well how to do a risk assessment.
 
WIederling
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:03 pm

Planeflyer wrote:
A quedtion for W and all the Russians participating; do you really think all this is directed at just the US?

Russia knows well how to do a risk assessment.


The US is the only and very active aggressor with reach around today knocking at Russias door.
And the only nation currently with an expansive behavior. not necessarily territorial ...
Internally driven by problems and a culture of perceived unexceptionably.
Result: another form of Jihad.

Add in that Soviet/Russian doctrine is to never allow a big defensive war on their territory.
In that context whittling down the "safety belt" is problematic.
Keep in mind that the US went hysteric on much lesser ( more like nonexisting ) grounds : Grenada, Panama.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Dutchy
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:23 pm

Remember Ukraine Crimea and Eastern part, Georgia (twice).... Quite a regional power with expansion ambitions we are dealing with here.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 1:34 pm

Interesting article in the Barents Observer - stating that mysterious radioactivity in the air around Scandinavia could be from these nuclear powered missiles.

A nuclear powered cruise missile with near unlimited range worries me a bit.

In Norway and Finland, radioactive isotopes were discovered at monitoring stations in January and March last year, as well as in January and February this year. The first cloud of radioactivity last year was first detected at Svanhovd air filter station on Norway’s border to Russia in the north, but spread over most of Europe south to France and Spain over the following two weeks.


https://thebarentsobserver.com/en/ecolo ... tivity-air
 
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Tugger
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:25 pm

WIederling wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
A quedtion for W and all the Russians participating; do you really think all this is directed at just the US?

Russia knows well how to do a risk assessment.


The US is the only and very active aggressor with reach around today knocking at Russias door.
And the only nation currently with an expansive behavior. not necessarily territorial ...
Internally driven by problems and a culture of perceived unexceptionably.
Result: another form of Jihad.

Add in that Soviet/Russian doctrine is to never allow a big defensive war on their territory.
In that context whittling down the "safety belt" is problematic.
Keep in mind that the US went hysteric on much lesser ( more like nonexisting ) grounds : Grenada, Panama.

Like I have been saying, Russia has a persecution complex. It is false and self created so there is nothing that the US or other countries can do to assuage it or change it, it is their problem alone.
The claims you make are about as imagined as can be, you conveniently forget that the loss of the "safety belt" was due to Russia's own failure, it's last failed safety belt of the "Iron Curtain" that Russia created after WWII to fulfill the "doctrine" you are claiming. Because of Russia's failure and abuse of the countries in that "safety belt" those countries ran as soon as they were able away from the horrible aggression and oppression of Russian rule and influence.

The USA has lots of flaws but you try to paper over, to claim that the USA is everything asnd other countries are nothing in what is.has happened and that is simply false. You use a word like "problematic" to cover over the fact that all those nations acted on their own to leave Russia's sphere of control. The word "problematic" holds the huge issue that Russia would have forced those nations to stay weak and under their control. Your intentional blindness, you intentional attempts to push a failed states desired to dominate its neighbors as innocent and not the cause of their own situation directly is problematic itself.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
GDB
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:18 pm

To add to Tugger's point, in 1956 when Hungary wanted harsh Soviet control ended, or just relaxed, in came the tanks and 1000's died.
In 1968 the Czechs wanted a more moderate version of Communism, not unlike Yugoslavia, in came the tanks.
They made sure the East Germans knew their place too, in barbed wire, concrete, mines and armed guards.
In 1981 workers in one of the 'worker's paradise' of the Warsaw Pact, went on strike and the massing of Russian forces told the Polish government to 'get on with the crackdown, or we'll do it for you'.

In 1966, France, or President CDG really, had one of his hissy fits and withdrew France from NATO.
Other NATO members, the US being the most powerful of course and whose forces were expelled from France as a result of this move, did.................nothing.
Not even economic retaliation.

I wonder why former Warsaw 'Pact' nations who were eligible, joined NATO the first chance they got?

However, the US effectively pulling out of the ABM treaty - signed by a previous right wing Republican President - was a move that was poorly thought through (like most things GWB administration wise) and was not supported by many US allies.
IMHO there is/was a case for BMD at a more tactical level, hence the USN and some allies having upgraded Standard missile on warships, or incremental improvements to systems like Patriot or the ASTER series.
Which the Russians could hardly object to, since they have the same capabilities, at least in land based systems.

I never really brought the 'rogue state might launch one of two' argument, if so and they are nuke tipped, they know what is coming back at them, that is deterrence, which in the nuclear area at least seems to, thankfully, work.

Finally, just consider who Putin was when the wall came down, completely shocking him he has said since.
What him, a KGB officer?
But he was a mid ranking KGB officer, too removed from 'the street' but not at the level to see the bigger picture of the crumbling empire.
Maybe unsurprising he thinks it was some 'western plot', not that the economic and political game was up for both the USSR and Warsaw Pact.
 
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Faro
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:22 pm

Is there any official or semi-official response from Western military circles re the effective feasibility and entry into service of these new Russian weapons?...


Faro
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:49 pm

Tugger wrote:
The claims you make are about as imagined as can be, you conveniently forget that the loss of the "safety belt" was due to Russia's own failure, it's last failed safety belt of the "Iron Curtain" that Russia created after WWII to fulfill the "doctrine" you are claiming. Because of Russia's failure and abuse of the countries in that "safety belt" those countries ran as soon as they were able away from the horrible aggression and oppression of Russian rule and influence. Tugg


You and GBD put it perfectly well, and probably worth adding that it was Wldering's very own Nazi grandparents slaughtering Russians, Jews and others by the millions that were directly responsible for WWII and the Russian shitstorm in Eastern Europe that followed in the next 40 years. To hear a German defending Russia while slamming every single aspect of American foreign policy since is beyond rich. He's easily one of the most ludicrous posters in this forum. It's almost as if his German schools skipped over Europe's reconstruction and the East Germany dream story.

The horrible truth about Russia is that since Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture they've done absolutely nothing, contributed not a single positive advancement to general human history. They export natural resources and fear, I honestly can't think of a single thing any Russian could be proud of about their country. Sure they can beat the beat out of tiny neighbors but what else is there exactly? Even the Dutch, French and Texans make better Vodka now. No wonder they collectively wank off to a tyrant like Putin, he is literally all they have to revel in a sorry fantasy that anyone gives a shit. All you had to do to see this truth is Putin doing his pathetic cruise missile power point and actually blurting out "now they will have to listen to me". OK Vlado, we're all ears, you can blow up the whole fucking planet right? Let us all egt on our knees and bow down to your wonderful contribution to humanity. And thanks for Trump, that was a precious gift.
 
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Aesma
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:32 pm

Scorpius wrote:
Tugger wrote:
And at the end the exact same thing happens, the weapon detonates and everything is irradiated

it is rather strange to talk about it - at the end a nuclear charge explodes, and irradiation with a couple of kilograms of fuel from the plant is the least of the problems.


Well it's a common misconception but the destructive nature of a bomb is first and foremost its power. Long term irradiation is not a given, it's possible to design relatively "clean" bombs that won't leave places uninhabitable. In fact even without doing that, Hiroshima and Nagasaki have both been rebuilt and many people live there.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
fab81
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:36 pm

GDB wrote:

In 1966, France, or President CDG really, had one of his hissy fits and withdrew France from NATO.
Other NATO members, the US being the most powerful of course and whose forces were expelled from France as a result of this move, did.................nothing.
Not even economic retaliation.


If you didn't know, CIA was already doing everything possible to get ride of President Charles De Gaulle in the early sixties... they started as soon he made clearly France would not be aligned with the US.
There a lot of materials available on the net about that but its in french based on declassified secret archives , for example https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xdy7u9.
 
Scorpius
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:40 pm

Aesma wrote:
Well it's a common misconception but the destructive nature of a bomb is first and foremost its power. Long term irradiation is not a given, it's possible to design relatively "clean" bombs that won't leave places uninhabitable. In fact even without doing that, Hiroshima and Nagasaki have both been rebuilt and many people live there.


In Hiroshima and Nagasaki, decontamination activities were carried out for several years. Among other things, they included the removal of a layer of soil about a meter thick and its disposal. And only after all this can you live there.
In addition, do not forget that at the time of the explosion, the materials in the rocket are likely to be sprayed into the smallest parts. They're actually going to be in the middle of an atomic explosion. Thus, the real danger to the environment posed by such missiles was no greater than the existing atomic munitions, for example.
 
salttee
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:16 am

Faro wrote:
Is there any official or semi-official response from Western military circles re the effective feasibility and entry into service of these new Russian weapons?
I can give you an unofficial assessment of Putin's claim of a nuke powered space ship. You don't have to do much research about it, there's nothing to it.
This whole brouhaha is just a PR stunt, it's part of an obvious, quite orchestrated PR campaign begun by the Russians in the last week or so. We've seen it from our usual Russian trolls on a.net.

To begin with, such a device is completely unnecessary for it's stated purpose: war. The US missile shield is pretty much a PR stunt as most knowledgeable people know (they haven't even gotten to the point where they can intercept a Scud yet (see recent events in Saudi Arabia), if the US can't deliver a system to stop a (single) Scud then there's not a snowball's chance in hell of the US being able to stop hundreds of Soviet built ICBMs, (not to mention SLBMS and Tu-160M2's etc.) The technology behind Putin's claimed nuke powered low altitude space ship is well understood and has been so for many decades, that's why none of them have ever been built. One of them would be a near certain catastrophe in the making and a country which has already produced the Kyshtym and Chernobyl disasters would be very unlikely to tempt fate to make a third global screw up. Even an early stage test crash of such a monstrosity would be a nuclear accident on a global scale, and the complexity of the claimed device would require many test flights even before one was actually stocked with a payload of dozens of nuclear weapons and set aloft And if such a thing existed, it could probably be easily defeated by spoofing GPS signals, which it would be dependent on. Then there is the development cost for a huge project like that to consider, resources would have to be diverted away from their other aerospace efforts, and Russia isn't exactly bubbling over with excess aerospace capacity.

But if it's actual purpose is as a PR stunt, this makes all the sense in the world (assuming that saber rattling is a clever idea), and it is very low cost: just the cost of photo-shopping a graphic. If you look at the claims in even slight detail you will notice that its proponents claim that it will fly under the radar at mach 10, that would be a nice trick to pull off!

LOL, nothing to see here, move along folks.

Now to change the subject:
fab81 wrote:
If you didn't know, CIA was already doing everything possible to get ride of President Charles De Gaulle in the early sixties... they started as soon he made clearly France would not be aligned with the US. There a lot of materials available on the net about that but its in french based on declassified secret archives , for example https://www.dailymotion.com/video/xdy7u9.
This is an English language site, so you are required to post your propaganda in English here. But I can tell you I was in the US Army in Europe from 63-65, operating an air defense radar, so I know a little about Franco American relations back then. They may not have been in NATO, but there was a French anti aircraft Battalion in Bitburg Germany, protecting the American AFB there, I once took a tour of their facility. I have no doubt that somebody in the CIA was closely watching De Gaulle, hoping to find a way to trip him up, he certainly wasn't the most popular guy in American circles. But neither the CIA or anyone else in the US government was doing much of anything to meddle in French affairs and France was in a pretty vulnerable position back then with the Algerian crisis going on. You're trying to sell a falsehood.
 
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Aesma
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Re: New weapon. Russia.

Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:57 am

France never left the political side of NATO. Today it's the only side that should exist anyway, along with cooperation between the nations' militaries. I can't understand why so many countries accept to have US military bases on their soil, it's not like the US would accept such a thing.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams

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