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bikerthai
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Thu Apr 26, 2018 1:29 pm

Slug71 wrote:
I don't think there's much contention for the P-8A anyway TBH.


Nothing like some sable rattling by Putin to scare them into moving the timeline to the left and get a capable plane ASAP.
Although Germany and France don't have the capability gap like the British.

bt
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keesje
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:45 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
keesje wrote:
Most likely it will become a derivative. Using high MTOW A320NEO components.

It the market is large enough a dedicated optimized platform might become feasible.

It seems the requirements changed a lot since the cold war.

Aircraft like the CN-235 / 295 MPA and ATR 42/72 MP could provide coastal coverage.

A bigger platform should probably be more capable than traditional ASW / patrol.

Image


Or they could do that smart thing and buy the already existing built for purpose P1 and add local content.


In the past apparently the electronic suites where the ones moved around between different aircraft types. Probably various packages could be bought from the P1, P7, R1 Sentinel to reduce costs, risk and improve inter operability, some be developed new.
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
strfyr51
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Thu Apr 26, 2018 8:17 pm

Ozair wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
Looks good keesje! I've wondered for some time why Airbus hasn't launched a MPA version of the A320/321 to compete with the P-8.

There have been many attempts over the years but nothing has come to fruition, as this article states the requirement has been around as far back as 2002, https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2014/01/future-maritime-patrol-part-3-dedicated-long-range-aircraft-p3-p1-atl-319/

The A319 MPA was offered to both Australia and India a number of years ago but lost to the P-8. The A320 has also been suggested as a AEW&C platform and Airbus made several models that were displayed at defence shows. Some info from a thread keesje created 9 years ago, viewtopic.php?t=1022815

My question? Does Airbus own the technology to develop an airplane to compete with the P-8A?? Did they to compete with the P-3C??
Just having an airframe is one thing,, but having the knowledge to match the capability is a totally different thing. They could partner with Lockheed or L3. but they'd be buying "off the shelf" Equipment designs that may or May NOT be owned by DARPA. thus unavailable to them. The British and the Germans though have built and operated their own unique designs and I'm sure could equip any Airbus airframe with modifications. How long did Boeing develop their airplane??
I remember Boeing having an ASW-707 parked on the Tarmac at NAS Moffett Field, CA while I served in the USN with VP-47 flying the P3-C. So??
They've been at this for a damn long time, as that was around 1975 that I first saw that airplane.
 
Ozair
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:02 pm

strfyr51 wrote:
My question? Does Airbus own the technology to develop an airplane to compete with the P-8A?? Did they to compete with the P-3C??
Just having an airframe is one thing,, but having the knowledge to match the capability is a totally different thing. They could partner with Lockheed or L3. but they'd be buying "off the shelf" Equipment designs that may or May NOT be owned by DARPA. thus unavailable to them. The British and the Germans though have built and operated their own unique designs and I'm sure could equip any Airbus airframe with modifications. How long did Boeing develop their airplane??
I remember Boeing having an ASW-707 parked on the Tarmac at NAS Moffett Field, CA while I served in the USN with VP-47 flying the P3-C. So??
They've been at this for a damn long time, as that was around 1975 that I first saw that airplane.

There is more than enough tech and knowledge available with European Defence Contractors to develop and build an ASW system for an A320 MPA with several existing systems already in service.

For example the below is used by the US, UK, France, Norway and Sweden.
https://www.thalesgroup.com/en/worldwid ... ne-systems

The Italians have received new ATR-72 that are designed for MPA operations but without ASW which could be added later is required.
https://www.defensenews.com/air/2016/12 ... -aircraft/

So plenty of tech and expertise in Europe and no reason they couldn’t develop a system as advanced as the P-8, the issue just comes down to cost and time. Given Germany and France have demonstrated with the A400M, Rafale, Eurofighter and now with the new European Fighter they are willing to spend vast amounts of cash to preserve domestic industries I don't see why a joint MPA will be any different.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:23 pm

I suspect what they are doing is just set up one organization to act as an integrator. They would select the A320 as a baseline aircraft. All the Mission System suite will be competitively bid if competition exists. Otherwise they will probably purchase existing system from the various electronics company. If commonality with the P-8A systems is desired, I doubt that US company will be prevented from providing those systems for this project.

bt
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CX747
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Thu May 03, 2018 10:43 pm

If you want commonality, then you can buy the P-8.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... ubmarines/

In service, already developed, capable of accepting new hardware. That saves everyone a bundle of money.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
Kiwirob
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Fri May 04, 2018 9:37 am

CX747 wrote:
If you want commonality, then you can buy the P-8.

https://www.seattletimes.com/business/b ... ubmarines/

In service, already developed, capable of accepting new hardware. That saves everyone a bundle of money.


But it doesn't give jobs to Europeans and is based on an arguably inferior aircraft to the A320NEO.
 
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bikerthai
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Fri May 04, 2018 1:26 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
But it doesn't give jobs to Europeans and is based on an arguably inferior aircraft to the A320NEO.


If they want to create jobs, take the money you save from avoiding the development cost and feed it into some non-military related job creation program. It would probably benefit you more. But that is a political calculation that we are not qualified to make :white:

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
barbulam1
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Tue May 08, 2018 1:12 pm

There is also the SC-130J, Lockheed's newer entry into the MPA realm.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjFijMCgh24
 
brindabella
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Tue May 08, 2018 1:51 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
pygmalion wrote:
Not that it shouldn't be looked at. Airbus Military is a bit short on cash though with the latest A400M charges.


Isnt the A400M saga over? Atleast where Airbus financials are concerned?

Isnt the European taxpayer is footing the bill for that screwup?
t

Good question!

Anybody know what was actually agreed?

(I thought that the parties have mostly "agreed to agree").

:boggled:

cheers
Billy
 
brindabella
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Tue May 08, 2018 2:11 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
You can't have sensor operators staring at the same screen for hours on end and expect that sensor to be 'optimized' - mental and visual fatigue becomes a major factor. You need to provide enough coverage with the crew size to allow people to have breaks so they can mentally reset..


We live in the times of deep learning, it is unlikely that a human operator can beat such a system. Those beat us in everything else someone took the time to train them.

So at some point the operator will have his Attention guided and doesn´t have to focus all the time. There is still lots of potential in concentration aids....

Quality control system are there for quite a while now.

best regards




So interesting.


Please post a lot more.

cheers
Billy
 
brindabella
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Tue May 08, 2018 2:15 pm

Ozair wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
It makes you wonder what is the point in an MPA doesn’t it.

I don’t think there is much doubt about the purpose of an MPA.
A maritime patrol aircraft (MPA), also known as a patrol aircraft, maritime reconnaissance aircraft, or by the older American term patrol bomber, is a fixed-wing aircraft designed to operate for long durations over water in maritime patrol roles — in particular anti-submarine warfare (ASW), anti-ship warfare (AShW), and search and rescue (SAR).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maritime_patrol_aircraft

Within the search and rescue context we can’t expect the MPA to find something when, as it subsequently became clear, wasn’t actually there in the first place…
!

A mere detail.

No silly quibbles please!


;)

cheers
Billy
 
brindabella
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Tue May 08, 2018 2:24 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
Maybe the European governments should fund a new wing that can hold more fuel so that it can increase it's loiter time at an increased weight?

Fred


NOT OK.!


I've dredged thru 2 months of stuff to see if anyone answered this ...

Very naughty!

I can see what you are up to.

You know the expression .. "wash your mouth out with soap!"?

:o

cheers
Billy
 
flipdewaf
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Tue May 08, 2018 3:04 pm

brindabella wrote:
flipdewaf wrote:
Maybe the European governments should fund a new wing that can hold more fuel so that it can increase it's loiter time at an increased weight?

Fred


NOT OK.!


I've dredged thru 2 months of stuff to see if anyone answered this ...

Very naughty!

I can see what you are up to.

You know the expression .. "wash your mouth out with soap!"?

:o

cheers

Haha, it took so long for a bite I’d almost forgotten about it.

Fred


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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VSMUT
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:35 pm

It looks like there may be some evidence that the Airbus A319 based MPA is actually cheaper than the Boeing P-8:

https://www.janes.com/article/82243/ind ... i-aircraft

In a report tabled in parliament on 7 August, the CAG revealed that the MoD had “incorrectly” declared Boeing’s financial bid for the P-8Is to be lower than that of Spain’s EADS CASA, which had also had its Airbus A319 maritime patrol aircraft (MPA) shortlisted for acquisition following trials in 2008–09.

The CAG claimed that the MoD had “enhanced” EADS CASA’s bid by including its 20-year support package in the company’s overall offer, but “ignored” this element in Boeing’s offer.


Interesting, given that the P-8 was already developed, and the A319MPA wasn't... :scratchchin:
 
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Stitch
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Thu Aug 09, 2018 7:49 pm

Or it is just the Indian military tracking true to form and looking to renegotiate a contract to get a better deal - if not for the country, then at least for the procurers.
 
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keesje
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Thu Aug 09, 2018 10:22 pm

The project is named A320M3 now.

Image
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Slug71
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:44 am

keesje wrote:
The project is named A320M3 now.

Image


Good platform for a AWACS/JSTARS too.
 
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Erebus
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Fri Aug 10, 2018 2:47 am

kanban wrote:
My first thought was Airbus must see the losses for the A400 ending and need another hole to lose money in.


Somewhat off-base there. A logical line of thinking would be that Airbus, having had success in the A330 MRTT programme, is looking to expand their military portfolio by doing yet another conversion of a highly successful and well tested commercial airliner into a military version. I don't expect them to dig a hole for this, at least not to the tune of losing say $3 billion to get the conversion right. :duck:



Didn't see this posted anywhere in this thread but I'll just put it in now.

Airbus evaluates an A320neo multi-mission version

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faFxUoGt2WU
 
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bikerthai
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Fri Aug 10, 2018 1:46 pm

VSMUT wrote:
It looks like there may be some evidence that the Airbus A319 based MPA is actually cheaper than the Boeing P-8:


The evidence is base on the bids only. As many of us here have seen being a low bidder does not necessarily means the least expensive contract. If true, while the P-8I may become a higher bid with the support contract (We were just as curious on why the India Navy did not want the support contract up front.), the development that was done for the P-8A have reduce the risk of execution for the P-8I significantly. I do not recall the P-8I's being delivered late (or significantly late). You can not be assured the same for the A319 based aircraft.

Considering that the P-8I was built similar to the P-8A where the mission system provision was already built into the green aircraft, which is the benefit of tagging on to the 117 quantity order of the P-8A. Can we say that the A319 MMA would be able to do the same for 8 frames? The A319 MMA would have to be a post production mod (chop and patch) otherwise the non-recuring cost for in-line production would go through the roof.

There is one benefit of a post production mod though. The mod could be done in India, thus providing significant off-sets. But having had the hind sight of a few years of working with India aerospace industry, I would predict that any A319 MMA being mod in India 8 years ago would have faced significant delays due to the learning curve. If mod could begin today, I would be more confident, but 8 years ago? Not so confident . . .

bt
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bikerthai
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:02 pm

Looks like with the number of frames involved, the A320 looks more and more like a good possibility

https://www.janes.com/article/77947/nat ... aft-effort.

The two nations join France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Spain, and Turkey in the multinational effort to develop a replacement for many of the alliance’s ageing maritime patrol and anti-submarine warfare (ASW) aircraft that will be nearing the end of their service lives in the coming years.


bt
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keesje
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:20 pm

bikerthai wrote:
Looks like with the number of frames involved, the A320 looks more and more like a good possibility

https://www.janes.com/article/77947/nat ... aft-effort.

The two nations join France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Spain, and Turkey in the multinational effort to develop a replacement for many of the alliance’s ageing maritime patrol and anti-submarine warfare (ASW) aircraft that will be nearing the end of their service lives in the coming years.


bt


With Airbus, Germany, France & Canada involved some further, maybe more efficient options could come under consideration. Such as e.g. an A220 MPA or even a decicated purpose designed platform. An MPA is a bit expensive to fly around people & goods too.

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Concept Steve Daly, Stephen Priestly images
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Slug71
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Mon Aug 20, 2018 3:26 pm

keesje wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
Looks like with the number of frames involved, the A320 looks more and more like a good possibility

https://www.janes.com/article/77947/nat ... aft-effort.

The two nations join France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Spain, and Turkey in the multinational effort to develop a replacement for many of the alliance’s ageing maritime patrol and anti-submarine warfare (ASW) aircraft that will be nearing the end of their service lives in the coming years.


bt


With Canada involved some further, maybe more efficient options could come under consideration, such as an A220 MPA.

Image
Concept Steve Daly, Stephen Priestly images


Considering the previous proposal was a stretched A319,and now a A320, a A220 is probably too small.

Having watched the video posted above, why would there be a separate SIGINT variant? Wouldn't it make more sense to include those capabilities into the MPA and AEW&C variants?
 
IADFCO
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:22 pm

Given the latest international developments, taking steps toward solutions with no US content would seem like an understandable choice by the EU and other countries, even if the choice carries some financial costs.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Mon Aug 20, 2018 8:11 pm

IADFCO wrote:
Given the latest international developments, taking steps toward solutions with no US content would seem like an understandable choice by the EU and other countries, even if the choice carries some financial costs.


Do you mean mission specific equipment or in general? I guess that the equipment could be possible, but the A320 itself has a lot of American components which could not easily be replaced. But perhaps it would be possible.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Ozair
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Mon Aug 20, 2018 9:47 pm

Slug71 wrote:

Having watched the video posted above, why would there be a separate SIGINT variant? Wouldn't it make more sense to include those capabilities into the MPA and AEW&C variants?

No. That just increases cost of integrating all the respective systems into the one airframe. It would be cheaper and likely less risky to install SIGINT related systems into the same airframe but with no conflicting systems.
 
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keesje
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Mon Aug 20, 2018 10:41 pm

Slug71 wrote:
Considering the previous proposal was a stretched A319,and now a A320, a A220 is probably too small.


It seems the A319MPA was a bit oversized. Now adding transport capability is maybe a solution for a problem that can be avoided..

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bikerthai
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:33 pm

keesje wrote:
It seems the A319MPA was a bit oversized.


Not sure how it is over there, but seems to me in the US if you give them a bigger airplane, they will find a way to fill it :boxedin:

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.

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