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keesje
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A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:19 pm

It seems France & Germany are together looking for a replacements of their aging MPA's.

Gemany P3 and France Atlantique II are up for replacement.

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https://airlinerwatch.com/airbus-considers-a-military-version-of-a320neo/
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Dutchy
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:32 pm

Looks cool.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Slug71
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:52 pm

Looks good keesje! I've wondered for some time why Airbus hasn't launched a MPA version of the A320/321 to compete with the P-8.
 
LightningZ71
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:05 pm

Why even use the A320 length? Use a platform based on the A321NEO-LR, but use the A319NEO fuselage length. Its still plenty of room for modern equipment, but will have less wasted mass and more cruise range/loiter time.
 
Ozair
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:38 pm

Slug71 wrote:
Looks good keesje! I've wondered for some time why Airbus hasn't launched a MPA version of the A320/321 to compete with the P-8.

There have been many attempts over the years but nothing has come to fruition, as this article states the requirement has been around as far back as 2002, https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2014/01/future-maritime-patrol-part-3-dedicated-long-range-aircraft-p3-p1-atl-319/

The A319 MPA was offered to both Australia and India a number of years ago but lost to the P-8. The A320 has also been suggested as a AEW&C platform and Airbus made several models that were displayed at defence shows. Some info from a thread keesje created 9 years ago, viewtopic.php?t=1022815
 
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Slug71
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:15 pm

Ozair wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
Looks good keesje! I've wondered for some time why Airbus hasn't launched a MPA version of the A320/321 to compete with the P-8.

There have been many attempts over the years but nothing has come to fruition, as this article states the requirement has been around as far back as 2002, https://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2014/01/future-maritime-patrol-part-3-dedicated-long-range-aircraft-p3-p1-atl-319/

The A319 MPA was offered to both Australia and India a number of years ago but lost to the P-8. The A320 has also been suggested as a AEW&C platform and Airbus made several models that were displayed at defence shows. Some info from a thread keesje created 9 years ago, viewtopic.php?t=1022815


Oh wow. Thanks for sharing Ozair! Oddly enough, i've never stumbled across that.

LightningZ71 wrote:
Why even use the A320 length? Use a platform based on the A321NEO-LR, but use the A319NEO fuselage length. Its still plenty of room for modern equipment, but will have less wasted mass and more cruise range/loiter time.


I also just stumbled across this this,

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A319_MPA

It appears that A319 proposal has a small stretch (backed up by the proposal in the link Ozair shared). 36m vs the standard 33.84m length for a A319 and slightly shy of the 37.57m A320. So in that case, it would make more sense to just use the A320 frame. I'm guessing the stretch was to accommodate the weapons bay.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Thu Feb 15, 2018 3:33 am

Ozair wrote:
The A319 MPA was offered to both Australia and India a number of years ago but lost to the P-8. The A320 has also been suggested as a AEW&C platform and Airbus made several models that were displayed at defence shows. Some info from a thread keesje created 9 years ago, viewtopic.php?t=1022815


FWIR, there was some issue with carrying/launching torpedoes in the A319MPA on offer to India.

Perhaps the A320 version will not have this limitation.

The Indian requirement for replacing the Tu-142 was met with the P8 induction. So no chance of an Indian order for another 30 years atleast.
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seahawk
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Thu Feb 15, 2018 6:15 am

Buy some C-295W ASW and be done with it.
 
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:43 am

seahawk wrote:
Buy some C-295W ASW and be done with it.


The C295 can carry very few weapons - only 4/5 external points in all?

The A320 based MPA can possibly carry 3 times that plus much more powerful suites for various missions leading to more operational flexibility.
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bigjku
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Thu Feb 15, 2018 10:25 am

BawliBooch wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Buy some C-295W ASW and be done with it.


The C295 can carry very few weapons - only 4/5 external points in all?

The A320 based MPA can possibly carry 3 times that plus much more powerful suites for various missions leading to more operational flexibility.


None of these programs are really cheap. Jet powered MPA have unique operational challenges to sort out (and many benefits). You are talking a couple billion easily. That has been he big stumbling block. The P-8 probably has the huge majority of the western market already locked down. Spreading R&D cost across 30 frames or so will lead to high unit cost and political issues trying to get the thing built.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:41 pm

bigjku wrote:
None of these programs are really cheap. Jet powered MPA have unique operational challenges to sort out (and many benefits). You are talking a couple billion easily. That has been he big stumbling block. The P-8 probably has the huge majority of the western market already locked down. Spreading R&D cost across 30 frames or so will lead to high unit cost and political issues trying to get the thing built.


I get what you are saying.

But if we went by this logic, perhaps the A320 itself would never have been built. The civil aircraft market in the 80's was a duopoly with the market "locked down" between Boeing & MDD. Airbus came in with the A320 in a very competitive market and is now the number 1.

So if Airbus/EADS can find a way to fund the MPA project, it will yield returns in the future. The Boeing monopoly works to no ones advantage. Europe must find a way.
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pygmalion
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:19 pm

The 737/A320 market is/was thousands of frames not a few dozen for the MPA. Payback on the investment could take decades.

Not that it shouldn't be looked at. Airbus Military is a bit short on cash though with the latest A400M charges.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:40 pm

pygmalion wrote:
Not that it shouldn't be looked at. Airbus Military is a bit short on cash though with the latest A400M charges.


Isnt the A400M saga over? Atleast where Airbus financials are concerned?

Isnt the European taxpayer is footing the bill for that screwup?
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:57 am

Seeing that A320 so low without slats and flaps is a bit concerning !
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BawliBooch
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:18 am

Aesma wrote:
Seeing that A320 so low without slats and flaps is a bit concerning !


This is clearly photoshopped! :)

Wouldnt the Flight control software have to be modified in the real world for the A320 to be able to do this sort of thing?
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WIederling
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:13 am

BawliBooch wrote:
Aesma wrote:
Seeing that A320 so low without slats and flaps is a bit concerning !


This is clearly photoshopped! :)

Wouldnt the Flight control software have to be modified in the real world for the A320 to be able to do this sort of thing?


Why?
Higher speed flight in ground proximity. no high lift needed. ( Look at some of those pilot grounding airfield buzzes on Boeing deliveries :-)
It is not that they would try a Habsheim ( Slow Flyer just hanging on. too much drag and thus fuel use.. )
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flipdewaf
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Fri Feb 16, 2018 12:40 pm

Maybe the European governments should fund a new wing that can hold more fuel so that it can increase it's loiter time at an increased weight?

Fred
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:35 pm

If France and Germany wants to fund this aircraft, it would be because of pure will power to have indigenous manufacturing. Unless they set up a production line similar to how Boeing does it with the P-8A, they will not be able to compete in price. With a potential of 100+ or so international sales and Boeing has locked up a number of those already and with Japan with their P-1, is there enough potential customer out there to sell to?

At most you can try to sell the plane at cost and let Germany and France eat the development cost. But even then, I'm not sure if you can make it cheaper than a P-8A or P-8I. Finally, how many years it will take to develop this aircraft and get it to deployment? Customer can order the P-8A/I now and have it in service in about two years.

By the time this plane is ready, the P-8A will probably be near the end of the production run. I was wondering why Boeing recently made a comment that it will keep the P-8A line open as long as there are customers (even after BCA completely switched over to the MAX?). Now I know . . . to make Germany and France's decision a little more difficult ;)

bt
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wingman
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:37 pm

Aesma wrote:
Seeing that A320 so low without slats and flaps is a bit concerning !


Not if it's doing a 550 MPH run at radar evading levels to get to the conflict zone. I bet you could get from Calais to Dover in 4 minutes for the final round of Brexit negotiations. Whoop, der it is!
 
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:40 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
Maybe the European governments should fund a new wing that can hold more fuel so that it can increase it's loiter time at an increased weight?

six ACT! look ito what the A319ACJ can do.
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Sat Feb 17, 2018 2:13 pm

Slug71 wrote:
It appears that A319 proposal has a small stretch (backed up by the proposal in the link Ozair shared). 36m vs the standard 33.84m length for a A319 and slightly shy of the 37.57m A320. So in that case, it would make more sense to just use the A320 frame. I'm guessing the stretch was to accommodate the weapons bay.


Yes I think its to keep the rest of the airframe standard and the non-pressurised cutout for the weapons bay an additional barrel section.
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bunumuring
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Sat Feb 17, 2018 9:25 pm

Hey guys,
NZ is kind of looking for P-3K Orion replacements, with some kind of offer/approach for P-8 Poseidons on the table and speculation over a possible Japanese P-1/C-2 joint purchase ....
Perhaps an A320MPA offer has/will be made to NZ? With Air NZ's expanding A32X fleet of ceos and neos, an A320MPA might be a good option for the Kiwis?
However, just across the Tasman, there is a growing fleet of P-8s offering commonality and joint mission comparability!
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Ozair
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Sun Feb 18, 2018 3:55 am

bunumuring wrote:
Hey guys,
NZ is kind of looking for P-3K Orion replacements, with some kind of offer/approach for P-8 Poseidons on the table and speculation over a possible Japanese P-1/C-2 joint purchase ....
Perhaps an A320MPA offer has/will be made to NZ? With Air NZ's expanding A32X fleet of ceos and neos, an A320MPA might be a good option for the Kiwis?
However, just across the Tasman, there is a growing fleet of P-8s offering commonality and joint mission comparability!
Cheers
Bunumuring

I'm not sure the timeframes that NZ need for a P-3K replacemnt match with an A320MPA. Not having another nation in the pacific operate that variant would also be a detraction.
 
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Sun Feb 18, 2018 6:55 am

bunumuring wrote:
Hey guys,
NZ is kind of looking for P-3K Orion replacements, with some kind of offer/approach for P-8 Poseidons on the table and speculation over a possible Japanese P-1/C-2 joint purchase ....
Perhaps an A320MPA offer has/will be made to NZ? With Air NZ's expanding A32X fleet of ceos and neos, an A320MPA might be a good option for the Kiwis?
However, just across the Tasman, there is a growing fleet of P-8s offering commonality and joint mission comparability!
Cheers
Bunumuring


I would tend to think the A320MPA would not make it for NZ. While there is undoubtedly plenty of support for A320s in the area, as you mention, the RAAF already flies P-8s, which gives the type a major advantage. Also, the P-3Ks were delivered in 1966, and so the time to design, develop and deliver this variant would be pushing it in terms of current airframe serviceability. Just because the retirement age in NZ is 65, doesn't mean our aircraft should have to wait that long to retire ;) The P-8 is already proven and available. The same could be said for the P-1, but I would be surprised if the P-8 doesn't eventually carry the kiwi.
 
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Mon Feb 19, 2018 9:47 am

bikerthai wrote:
If France and Germany wants to fund this aircraft, it would be because of pure will power to have indigenous manufacturing. Unless they set up a production line similar to how Boeing does it with the P-8A, they will not be able to compete in price. With a potential of 100+ or so international sales and Boeing has locked up a number of those already and with Japan with their P-1, is there enough potential customer out there to sell to?

At most you can try to sell the plane at cost and let Germany and France eat the development cost. But even then, I'm not sure if you can make it cheaper than a P-8A or P-8I. Finally, how many years it will take to develop this aircraft and get it to deployment? Customer can order the P-8A/I now and have it in service in about two years.

By the time this plane is ready, the P-8A will probably be near the end of the production run. I was wondering why Boeing recently made a comment that it will keep the P-8A line open as long as there are customers (even after BCA completely switched over to the MAX?). Now I know . . . to make Germany and France's decision a little more difficult ;)

bt


Agreed, I also don't think there is enough market for Airbus to develop and produce profitable A320MPAs from scratch. And after the A400M I do believe Airbus wants to demonstrate that they can make their next military plane at a profit.

Only way I can see A320MPA's flying is if the French/German governments manage to get the P-8 equipment into the A320. That requires a boat load of heavy assumptions though, such as: Boeing/DoD willing to play along, reasonable pricing, the kit being modular enough for easy transfer, etc. So, i don't really see it happen.
 
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:20 am

FrancisBegbie wrote:
bikerthai wrote:
If France and Germany wants to fund this aircraft, it would be because of pure will power to have indigenous manufacturing. Unless they set up a production line similar to how Boeing does it with the P-8A, they will not be able to compete in price. With a potential of 100+ or so international sales and Boeing has locked up a number of those already and with Japan with their P-1, is there enough potential customer out there to sell to?

At most you can try to sell the plane at cost and let Germany and France eat the development cost. But even then, I'm not sure if you can make it cheaper than a P-8A or P-8I. Finally, how many years it will take to develop this aircraft and get it to deployment? Customer can order the P-8A/I now and have it in service in about two years.

By the time this plane is ready, the P-8A will probably be near the end of the production run. I was wondering why Boeing recently made a comment that it will keep the P-8A line open as long as there are customers (even after BCA completely switched over to the MAX?). Now I know . . . to make Germany and France's decision a little more difficult ;)

bt


Agreed, I also don't think there is enough market for Airbus to develop and produce profitable A320MPAs from scratch. And after the A400M I do believe Airbus wants to demonstrate that they can make their next military plane at a profit.

Only way I can see A320MPA's flying is if the French/German governments manage to get the P-8 equipment into the A320. That requires a boat load of heavy assumptions though, such as: Boeing/DoD willing to play along, reasonable pricing, the kit being modular enough for easy transfer, etc. So, i don't really see it happen.


Or thinking outside the square team up with BAe and utalise the equipment developed for the Nimrod MRA4.
 
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Mon Feb 19, 2018 10:49 am

Kiwirob wrote:
Or thinking outside the square team up with BAe and utalise the equipment developed for the Nimrod MRA4.


Wasn't that scrapped and "cleaned" like the Avro Arrow Project ? i.e. unavailable for reuse as either hardware or knowhow.
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Mon Feb 19, 2018 11:55 am

The A320 MPA is long overdue, but it wil be difficult to compete against the P-8 which already has an established market.
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VSMUT
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Mon Feb 19, 2018 12:32 pm

WIederling wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
Or thinking outside the square team up with BAe and utalise the equipment developed for the Nimrod MRA4.


Wasn't that scrapped and "cleaned" like the Avro Arrow Project ? i.e. unavailable for reuse as either hardware or knowhow.


Only the aircraft/airframes themselves. The electronic equipment was stripped. It will still need some work though, the exact equipment used on the MRA4 will be approach 20 years of age.

But they wouldn't necessarily have to team up with BAe. Most of the important stuff is delivered by subcontractors anyway, but just to mention a few of the bigger names:

Airbus Military itself has done modernization of P-3s, and builds C-235/295 based MPAs. They also did the A319MPA work in the 90s.
Lockheed Martin was left out of the market when the Orion 21/P-7 lost out to the P-8.
Dassault did the Atlantique 3 development work in the 1990s, and also has experience with the Atlantique 1 and 2, as well as a few Falcon based MPAs.
SAAB has the Swordfish line based on the Q400 and Global Express.
Leonardo/Alenia has experience with the ATR 72 ASW.
Various Japanese corporations could bring expertise and technology from the P-1 project.
Embraer has the ERJ-145 based MPA as well.
 
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:17 pm

Unless they started this yesterday and offered the NZ government some of the first slots I think this won't be considered by the NZ government.

Otherwise yeah, if it happens it will be because France and Germany want to keep such strategic capability on the continent. Commercially the high end is well covered by the P-8 and maybe P-1.
 
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Mon Feb 19, 2018 1:32 pm

I one point there might be a market for a fully optimized MPA adding capability & efficiency a airliner based MAP couldn't.

https://flic.kr/p/VcktmD

Did this sketch a decade ago when 2020 was far away ..
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
Kiwirob
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:00 pm

keesje wrote:
I one point there might be a market for a fully optimized MPA adding capability & efficiency a airliner based MAP couldn't.

https://flic.kr/p/VcktmD

Did this sketch a decade ago when 2020 was far away ..


There is one fully optimised not based on a passenger airframe available today, it’s the made in Japan P1. It surprises me that they haven’t won more sales.
 
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:16 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
keesje wrote:
I one point there might be a market for a fully optimized MPA adding capability & efficiency a airliner based MAP couldn't.

https://flic.kr/p/VcktmD

Did this sketch a decade ago when 2020 was far away ..


There is one fully optimised not based on a passenger airframe available today, it’s the made in Japan P1. It surprises me that they haven’t won more sales.


Because of political pressure, what else did you expect?
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:29 pm

I'm pretty sure Japan had a very specific no export rule on arms until very recently. So the P-1 only came onto the export market as an option when it was essentially finished. Whereas the P-8 was always going to be exported so was an option to consider long before the P-1.
 
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keesje
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Mon Feb 19, 2018 4:51 pm

I guess the P-8 is indeed the only dedicated type now one. No doubt mind bogling expensive..

Budgets have shrunken, using existing platforms reduces risks and maybe long range / endurance requirements have been reduced.

Image

This concept had big wing tanks, a simple jet in the tail for take off / emergency power and could refuel other MPA's / helicopters or carry 20 people / some cargo for forward deployments.

Maybe the Chinese at some stage?
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Andre3K
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:00 am

BawliBooch wrote:

So if Airbus/EADS can find a way to fund the MPA project, it will yield returns in the future. The Boeing monopoly works to no ones advantage. Europe must find a way.



It works to my advantage here in America (can't speak for Europe). We are protecting American jobs that produce American products to protect America. There is nothing safer than creating your own, you don't have to worry about current friends being later enemies, it's patriotic to produce as much as you can in-house, and a host of other reasons that the Boeing monopoly on this works. I'm not speaking for other countries, just the USA. Airbus needs to figure out how to make it work over there, because Boeing has it on lock over here.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:25 am

It appears there are multiple countries interested in a joint development for a new MPA:

https://www.defensenews.com/smr/munich- ... craft-buy/

France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Spain, Turkey, and now, Poland and Canada are all working to jointly buy a fleet of new maritime patrol aircraft.

Of the contenders, Boeing is of course proposing the P-8, while Airbus is expected to bid with the A320 based MPA. Bombardier and Saab is proposing their own MPA based off the Global 6000 platform.
 
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keesje
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Tue Feb 20, 2018 10:03 am

ThePointblank wrote:
It appears there are multiple countries interested in a joint development for a new MPA:

https://www.defensenews.com/smr/munich- ... craft-buy/

France, Germany, Greece, Italy, Spain, Turkey, and now, Poland and Canada are all working to jointly buy a fleet of new maritime patrol aircraft.

Of the contenders, Boeing is of course proposing the P-8, while Airbus is expected to bid with the A320 based MPA. Bombardier and Saab is proposing their own MPA based off the Global 6000 platform.



Interesting that things finally start to move. We had extensive discussions around the days of the Nimrod drama and various nations struggling with changing requirements / budget cuts.

IMO there should be a Euro MPA force with 4-5 airbases on strategic locations, handling the North Atlantic, South Atlantic and Mediterranean and have resources for deployments too. For coastal / Mediterranean requirements smaller platforms could be used than for Atlantic.

Dinosaurs like P-3, Atlantic were build for different needs. A new platform should be able to support UN kind of missions, piracy, UAV's, terrorism threats and be fully connected. No need anymore to bring 14 blokes with plotters to the place itself.

Image
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
WIederling
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:31 am

keesje wrote:
A new platform should be able to support UN kind of missions, piracy, UAV's, terrorism threats and be fully connected. No need anymore to bring 14 blokes with plotters to the place itself.


Go COTS:
https://www.aerodata.de/en/surveillance ... lance.html

The electronics stuff is shrinking all the time.
Murphy is an optimist
 
ThePointblank
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:34 pm

keesje wrote:
No need anymore to bring 14 blokes with plotters to the place itself.

Disagree.

Mission systems that are advanced don't necessarily equal "less operators required".

That is a nice sound bite that doesn't really work in the MPA or surveillance world. You can't have sensor operators staring at the same screen for hours on end and expect that sensor to be 'optimized' - mental and visual fatigue becomes a major factor. You need to provide enough coverage with the crew size to allow people to have breaks so they can mentally reset.

While many users do use smaller aircraft as their MPA, they don't fly extremely long patrols or cover vast amounts of ocean with their aircraft. Large patrol areas demand a platform with tons of endurance.
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Tue Feb 20, 2018 12:46 pm

ThePointblank wrote:
keesje wrote:
No need anymore to bring 14 blokes with plotters to the place itself.

Disagree.

Mission systems that are advanced don't necessarily equal "less operators required".

That is a nice sound bite that doesn't really work in the MPA or surveillance world. You can't have sensor operators staring at the same screen for hours on end and expect that sensor to be 'optimized' - mental and visual fatigue becomes a major factor. You need to provide enough coverage with the crew size to allow people to have breaks so they can mentally reset.

While many users do use smaller aircraft as their MPA, they don't fly extremely long patrols or cover vast amounts of ocean with their aircraft. Large patrol areas demand a platform with tons of endurance.


I think what keesje was getting at is transmitting all the data back to a central point on land. That way your team can be as big or as small as needed.

The issue with that of course is that it's vulnerable to any sort of denial of service attack on your comms infrastructure. It's hard to send back the data if all your comm satallites have been shot out of the sky.
 
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keesje
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Tue Feb 20, 2018 2:27 pm

WIederling wrote:
keesje wrote:
A new platform should be able to support UN kind of missions, piracy, UAV's, terrorism threats and be fully connected. No need anymore to bring 14 blokes with plotters to the place itself.


Go COTS:
https://www.aerodata.de/en/surveillance ... lance.html

The electronics stuff is shrinking all the time.


Indeed. I think for smaller platforms there is choice, pending requirements anything from a King air up tyo ATR-42 with many inbetweens.

I think the upcoming requirement is for the long endurance / complicated missions and ASW. The P-8 / A320MPA type of aircraft can do the job but are compromised. Over specified in some areas, limited in others. As said the world has changed. E.g. it must be utterly frustration for a $150mln MPA crew to fly over a pirate vessels approaching merchant ships and only send out warnings / call for help by radio but be unable intervene. Or check out fishing vessels with a fine $150mln ASW platforms.

Image
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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Polot
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:02 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:
keesje wrote:
I one point there might be a market for a fully optimized MPA adding capability & efficiency a airliner based MAP couldn't.

https://flic.kr/p/VcktmD

Did this sketch a decade ago when 2020 was far away ..


There is one fully optimised not based on a passenger airframe available today, it’s the made in Japan P1. It surprises me that they haven’t won more sales.


Because of political pressure, what else did you expect?

The advantages of using a well known, and more importantly well supported, platform also can not be overlooked. What engine, for example, do you think is easier and cheaper to get parts for and maintain- the CFM56 or the IHI Corportation F7?
 
tommy1808
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Tue Feb 20, 2018 3:43 pm

ThePointblank wrote:
You can't have sensor operators staring at the same screen for hours on end and expect that sensor to be 'optimized' - mental and visual fatigue becomes a major factor. You need to provide enough coverage with the crew size to allow people to have breaks so they can mentally reset..


We live in the times of deep learning, it is unlikely that a human operator can beat such a system. Those beat us in everything else someone took the time to train them.

So at some point the operator will have his Attention guided and doesn´t have to focus all the time. There is still lots of potential in concentration aids....

Quality control system are there for quite a while now.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
VSMUT
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:10 pm

Polot wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

There is one fully optimised not based on a passenger airframe available today, it’s the made in Japan P1. It surprises me that they haven’t won more sales.


Because of political pressure, what else did you expect?

The advantages of using a well known, and more importantly well supported, platform also can not be overlooked. What engine, for example, do you think is easier and cheaper to get parts for and maintain- the CFM56 or the IHI Corportation F7?


So all of a sudden military organizations have begun caring about where they can get cheap spare parts?
 
Kiwirob
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Tue Feb 20, 2018 4:14 pm

Polot wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Kiwirob wrote:

There is one fully optimised not based on a passenger airframe available today, it’s the made in Japan P1. It surprises me that they haven’t won more sales.


Because of political pressure, what else did you expect?

The advantages of using a well known, and more importantly well supported, platform also can not be overlooked. What engine, for example, do you think is easier and cheaper to get parts for and maintain- the CFM56 or the IHI Corportation F7?


But do the pluses in being a well supported platform make up for all the disadvantages that platform has, apparently as a sub hunter it’s a dog, it’s also practically useless in the SAR role.

The IHI H7 was also specifically designed and engineered for use in a an MPA, the CFM56 wasn’t, my guess is one works a lot better than the other in a marine environment.
 
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kanban
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Tue Feb 20, 2018 5:36 pm

My first thought was Airbus must see the losses for the A400 ending and need another hole to lose money in. :duck:
 
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bikerthai
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:07 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
But do the pluses in being a well supported platform make up for all the disadvantages that platform has, apparently as a sub hunter it’s a dog, it’s also practically useless in the SAR role.


Not quite useless.

https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-nav ... or-8-days/

I suppose the P-1 could have done the same. But this is a situation where a jet has a hand up on a prop. You get to the station faster, and with radar, you do not have to fly low and slow. You can cover more ground flying high and fast and let the radar do the work.

bt
Intelligent seeks knowledge. Enlightened seeks wisdom.
 
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zeke
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Wed Feb 21, 2018 3:15 pm

Did nothing for MH370
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Kiwirob
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Re: A320 MPA as Orion / Atlantic Replacement, France , Germany

Wed Feb 21, 2018 6:50 pm

zeke wrote:
Did nothing for MH370


And they couldn’t find the lost argentine sub either.

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