ThePointblank
Topic Author
Posts: 3006
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 pm

Israeli's Loose an F-16

Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:12 am

Via the Jerusalem Post:

http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Confl ... ria-542191

In a major flare up on Israel’s northern border, Israel carried out a large-scale attack against Syrian air defenses and Iranian targets in the war-torn country after an Israeli F-16 crashed during operations to strike Iranian targets in Syria early Saturday morning.

The operation, which was carried out by eight Israeli jets, struck 12 targets in Syria including thee Syrians SA5 and SA17 air defense batteries and four Iranian targets near the town of Kiswah, which is home to Syria’s 1st armored division and part of the Islamic Republic’s buildup in Syria.


One Israeli F-16 crashed in the Beit Netofa Valley in the Lower Galilee. It is unclear if the F-16 was shot down or crashed for some other reason, but the Israeli raid was apparently met with heavy Syrian anti-aircraft fire. Both crew members are now safe, but were taken to hospital. One of the pilots was severely wounded while the other one was slightly injured per the IDF.

This would be the first time the Israeli's have lost a combat aircraft in a combat situation since 2006 when a Israeli CH-53 was shot down over Lebanon, killing everyone onboard.
 
Alfons
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:17 am

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Sat Feb 10, 2018 10:57 am

@ThePointblank
from your same linked article, just to get a bigger picture, you know...; Israeli attack happened as a response to an Iranian drone (again) flying into Israeli airspace. The Israeli jets aim was then to get rid of the drone control center. Which obviously will be rebuilt in zero time.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 6102
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:18 am

Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
AYVN
Posts: 52
Joined: Sun Jun 12, 2011 4:47 pm

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:57 pm

What is the purpose of 2 men crew in Israeli F16? Seems like most of their F16's are 2 seat aircraft and those are not for training purposes.
How is crew workload divided?
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 10295
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:42 pm

The rhetoric from Israel is ridiculous. You attack a country and are surprised when you meet resistance ? A bomber is shot down and you need to retaliate ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Alfons
Posts: 223
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 1:17 am

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:59 pm

Aesma wrote:
The rhetoric from Israel is ridiculous. You attack a country and are surprised when you meet resistance ? A bomber is shot down and you need to retaliate ?


and the usuals are coming out of their holes... .

AYVN wrote:
What is the purpose of 2 men crew in Israeli F16? Seems like most of their F16's are 2 seat aircraft and those are not for training purposes.
How is crew workload divided?


Israel often buys its planes in 2 seat configuration for SAM suppression mission, bombing and other types of strikes where it's better to have 4 eyes for evaluating the situation than only 2 which are already occupied flying the plane. They also wanted 2-seater F-35.
 
User avatar
flyingturtle
Posts: 5421
Joined: Mon Oct 31, 2011 1:39 pm

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:02 pm

Aesma wrote:
The rhetoric from Israel is ridiculous. You attack a country and are surprised when you meet resistance ? A bomber is shot down and you need to retaliate ?


I wonder about that too. And how many Iranian bases there are in Syria is solely a question of Syria's consent.

David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
Armodeen
Posts: 989
Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 10:17 am

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:06 pm

Aesma wrote:
The rhetoric from Israel is ridiculous. You attack a country and are surprised when you meet resistance ? A bomber is shot down and you need to retaliate ?


I agree, they reacted like a child caught with his hand in the cookie jar.

I fully support Israel's right to defend themselves, and if this UAV was perceived to be a threat then shoot it down. If you then decide to escalate by bombing then don't be surprised when the other party defends themselves from that action (as is also their right).

The fact that they feel the need to escalate their own escalation is somewhat ridiculous. What happens if they lose another one in this enterprise?
 
RetiredWeasel
Posts: 632
Joined: Sat Jul 05, 2014 8:16 pm

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:32 pm

Armodeen wrote:
Aesma wrote:
The rhetoric from Israel is ridiculous. You attack a country and are surprised when you meet resistance ? A bomber is shot down and you need to retaliate ?


I agree, they reacted like a child caught with his hand in the cookie jar.

I fully support Israel's right to defend themselves, and if this UAV was perceived to be a threat then shoot it down. If you then decide to escalate by bombing then don't be surprised when the other party defends themselves from that action (as is also their right).

The fact that they feel the need to escalate their own escalation is somewhat ridiculous. What happens if they lose another one in this enterprise?


Some reports on other forums are saying that the F-16 was shot down while flying CAP inside northern Israel by a medium range SAM. Reports say this was during or just at the completion of the attack on the drone control building. After that, restraints were lifted and Israel launched the attacks against SAM sites and supply facilities. But everything over there inside Syria is a clusterfuck and reports reflect that.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 10295
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:32 pm

Bombing raids are not deterrents. They're acts of war, and being shot at is to be expected in these instances. What should happen, according to you ?
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
aa87
Posts: 256
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:37 am

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Sun Feb 11, 2018 5:55 pm

Aesma wrote:
Bombing raids are not deterrents. They're acts of war, and being shot at is to be expected in these instances. What should happen, according to you ?


If you really believe that, you've obviously never been bombed.

What should happen ? Ideally Iran transitions to a moderate, pro-Western democracy and relinquishes its theocratic, messianic obsession with bringing the coming of the twelfth Imam by destroying Israel. It would have no desire to build bases, send troops and special forces and advanced weaponry through a second country (Syria) to its proxies in a third country (Lebanon) to attack a fourth country (Israel) with which it shares no border and with which it has no territorial or political dispute, other than religious hatred.Then, just maybe there would be enough political stability so Israel and the Palestinians could reach reasonable compromises on sharing of territory and political power.

So, Iran sent a drone (possibly armed) into Israel from Syria, pursuing a classic strategy of increasingly direct, assymetric warfare, and Israel responded. A state of war has existed between Israel and Syria/Lebanon for 70 years, Iran de facto declared war on Israel in 1979, and Russia is on the ground supporting its ally Syria in its multi-pronged/multi-front war against its own people, rebels and terrorists. Thus, no surprise Syria/Russia fired back as is to be expected in any war. This time they managed to score a goal against the IAF, so Israel evened the score. The Israelis aren't whining, only their haters are.
 
mxaxai
Posts: 528
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:08 pm

aa87 wrote:
(remember what happened to the last F-16 pilot captured in Jordan, and he was a fellow Arab/Muslim).

I think he was a pilot from Jordan who was captured in Syria. I doubt that Jordan has any reason right now to attack another country and thus shoot down fighter aircraft and take their crew prisoner (opposed to bombing non-governmental forces like ISIS, who do not field aircraft and thus cannot be POW pilots in Jordan).
 
aa87
Posts: 256
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:37 am

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Mon Feb 12, 2018 1:59 pm

mxaxai wrote:
aa87 wrote:
(remember what happened to the last F-16 pilot captured in Jordan, and he was a fellow Arab/Muslim).

I think he was a pilot from Jordan who was captured in Syria. I doubt that Jordan has any reason right now to attack another country and thus shoot down fighter aircraft and take their crew prisoner (opposed to bombing non-governmental forces like ISIS, who do not field aircraft and thus cannot be POW pilots in Jordan).


Yes I meant to say captured from Jordan.
 
originalblis
Posts: 19
Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 3:58 pm

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Mon Feb 12, 2018 2:11 pm

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.pr ... -1.5808981

This article says that the error was in Israeli planes were flying too high which left them vulnerable. Can someone please explain why flying too high was dangerous with these SAMs. Thanks!
originalblis
 
mxaxai
Posts: 528
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:10 pm

originalblis wrote:
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-israel-took-out-half-of-syria-s-air-defenses-military-beliefs-1.5808981

This article says that the error was in Israeli planes were flying too high which left them vulnerable. Can someone please explain why flying too high was dangerous with these SAMs. Thanks!

Flying high means that the planes show up early on radar screens (or other means of detection), giving ample time to prepare anti-air measures. It also gives the missile time to launch and attain a good intercept trajectory without extreme maneuvering. Usually, hostile border crossings would be conducted at low altitude, even terrain following. This is one reason why ground attack aircraft like the Tornado or the B1-B are usually optimised for high speeds at low altitude and they carry equipment (i. e. radar) that allows easy terrain following.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 8419
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:18 pm

originalblis wrote:
Can someone please explain why flying too high was dangerous with these SAMs. Thanks!


Line of sight between the battery and the aircraft for long enough to find the target, log in on it, fire a missile and keep a radar illuminator on it until impact.

If you can not suppress enemy SAM's by jamming or attacking them first, they will get you if they see you long enough.
Hence all the nap of the earth flying during the cold war, they expected a real enemy that wasn't easy to suppress.
Flying high is good when you only expect shoulder lunched missiles and smaller caliber AAA. Which in most parts of the world is the only real thread.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
User avatar
SQ22
Moderator
Posts: 870
Joined: Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:29 am

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Mon Feb 12, 2018 6:19 pm

Please keep this thread on topic and do not start a general discussion about political situation in Middle East. I very well do understand that this is a borderline topic and touches politcs, but we do not need a general exchange of arguments.
 
LMP737
Posts: 5537
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:26 pm

Curious as to the actual system that brought the F-16 down.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
Ozair
Posts: 2694
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Mon Feb 12, 2018 10:40 pm

LMP737 wrote:
Curious as to the actual system that brought the F-16 down.

I have seen reports that there were SA-11 and SA-17, both of which are in the Syrian orbat, in the area so are possibilities. Some reports have stated SA-5 but I consider it unlikely an SA-5 was able to bring down an F-16 given the missile size and engagement sequence. The Syrians have launched SA-5 s against Israeli aircraft previously, including just last year, with no confirmed success.
 
Planeflyer
Posts: 1021
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:49 am

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:44 am

You wouldn’t think it needs mentioning but you all realize that Israel is under almost constant rocket fire by Iran’s proxies?

The other elephant in the closet is they can’t get those F35’s soon enough
 
User avatar
BawliBooch
Posts: 1153
Joined: Mon Nov 28, 2016 4:24 am

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:23 am

Aesma wrote:
The rhetoric from Israel is ridiculous. You attack a country and are surprised when you meet resistance ? A bomber is shot down and you need to retaliate ?


If the Israeli aircraft was within Israeli airspace and attacking in standoff mode, then it would be illegal to shoot it down.

Do we know if the Israeli F16 had crossed into Syrian airspace?
Hey! I am Banwarilal! Mr.Kapoor's favorite poodle!
 
Ozair
Posts: 2694
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:50 am

BawliBooch wrote:

Do we know if the Israeli F16 had crossed into Syrian airspace?

I think it is pretty clear that Israeli aircraft bombed one and then after being fired upon subsequent Iranian/Syrian targets. They were almost certainly in Syrian airspace when they did that.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 6102
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:51 am

BawliBooch wrote:
Aesma wrote:
The rhetoric from Israel is ridiculous. You attack a country and are surprised when you meet resistance ? A bomber is shot down and you need to retaliate ?


If the Israeli aircraft was within Israeli airspace and attacking in standoff mode, then it would be illegal to shoot it down.

Do we know if the Israeli F16 had crossed into Syrian airspace?


Don't know the legalities of this, but if an aircraft attack you in his own airspace, then I can see some logic to try to shoot it down, Israel can't really complain about that.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
Posts: 8419
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:46 am

BawliBooch wrote:
Aesma wrote:
The rhetoric from Israel is ridiculous. You attack a country and are surprised when you meet resistance ? A bomber is shot down and you need to retaliate ?


If the Israeli aircraft was within Israeli airspace and attacking in standoff mode, then it would be illegal to shoot it down.

Do we know if the Israeli F16 had crossed into Syrian airspace?


Ah.. no.
You can shoot back at anything that shoots at you, regardless of where it is. If Israel had really, really long range cruise missiles and fired them from right above the White House, it would still be legal to shoot at it.
In fact, unless the US made an serious effort to shoot it down themselves or intern pilot and aircraft until the war is over, the US would become party to the conflict, making all US targets of military value legal to attack as well.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
WIederling
Posts: 6318
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:01 am

BawliBooch wrote:
Aesma wrote:
The rhetoric from Israel is ridiculous. You attack a country and are surprised when you meet resistance ? A bomber is shot down and you need to retaliate ?


If the Israeli aircraft was within Israeli airspace and attacking in standoff mode, then it would be illegal to shoot it down.


We'll wash that with "sneakily shooting over the border" from the Israeli side.
Moving ordinance across the border would be illegal in both directions. Attached to planes or not.:-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
User avatar
SeJoWa
Posts: 507
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 6:11 pm

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:15 am

It's several years back that the Israelis electronically spoofed the entire Syrian IAD network, if I remember correctly.

Is this a sign of the Syrian dictator's upgraded capabilities by way of the Kremlin? Planes do get lost, and I'm not partial to the invulnerability mantra.

Egypt just dodged a Russian missile, by the way: https://twitter.com/jenanmoussa/status/ ... 1239996416
 
Planeflyer
Posts: 1021
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:49 am

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:35 pm

BTW, I did a search on stories relating to this incident and could not find one quote where Israel complained about losing an AC.

This story is typical of the quotes from both sides:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/wor ... 325955002/
 
WIederling
Posts: 6318
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:28 pm

Planeflyer wrote:
BTW, I did a search on stories relating to this incident and could not find one quote where Israel complained about losing an AC.

This story is typical of the quotes from both sides:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/wor ... 325955002/


something must have changed:
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.pr ... -1.5809118 ( src, paywall )
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... Syria.html
Murphy is an optimist
 
tommy1808
Posts: 8419
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:42 pm

WIederling wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
BTW, I did a search on stories relating to this incident and could not find one quote where Israel complained about losing an AC.

This story is typical of the quotes from both sides:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/wor ... 325955002/


something must have changed:
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.pr ... -1.5809118 ( src, paywall )
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... Syria.html


Putin doesn´t want the Syrians to use SAMs the Israelis can´t jam yet, because otherwise they may be able to in short order.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Planeflyer
Posts: 1021
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:49 am

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Wed Feb 14, 2018 2:00 am

W, I could not open the Haaretz story but in the Daily Mail there was zero mention that Israel complained about losing an AC. Looks like another example of fake news.
 
WIederling
Posts: 6318
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:12 am

Planeflyer wrote:
W, I could not open the Haaretz story but in the Daily Mail there was zero mention that Israel complained about losing an AC. Looks like another example of fake news.


What do you deem "fake news" here? ( "complain" was never mentioned.)

IMU they are very careful to present it as a "not shoot down loss".

Their position(ing) up to now was "inviolable, strafe Syria with impunity".
Face loss would be immense .. and expectable MoO would be further over the top "retaliation" on Syria

The interesting thing here is that Bibbi N. opened his mouth ... and then closed it. standing down.
No further aggressions over Syrian territory.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Planeflyer
Posts: 1021
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:49 am

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:00 pm

Up above in several posts it was asserted that Israel had complained that their AC had come under attack.

The only thing Israel protested was the incursion into their airspace by a drone.

The pattern is always the same; any defense put up by Israel is criticized ( by those that would not put up with what Israel deals w daily) as too much force.

And Bobbi going quiet means nothing. Israel doesn’t bark, it bites.

You watch when hezbolah and Iran start the next war, they will take a beating like they have never experienced which will only stop when the appeasers step in and exert enough pressure to end the conflict.
 
WIederling
Posts: 6318
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Wed Feb 14, 2018 4:02 pm

Planeflyer wrote:
Up above in several......................to end the conflict.


Thank you.
Murphy is an optimist
 
tommy1808
Posts: 8419
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:52 pm

Planeflyer wrote:
The pattern is always the same; any defense put up by Israel is criticized ( by those that would not put up with what Israel deals w daily) as too much force.


So, Israel never ever sends a drone into other countries airspace? Never ever?

The pattern is always the same, any attempt to get territory back, that Isreal illegally occupied, "justifies" whatever means necessary to retaliate, but if as much as a single mortar round gets fired back, any level of "self defense" is just peachy.

Until the day Israel withdraws to its recognized 1967 borders you have no point to make. If you are occupying foreign territory, you are the problem. That was true for Iraq, for Nazi Germany, for Russia, for the USSR and it sure as hell is true for Israel just as much.

If the aggressor is not your friend, you usually call those people resistance. If the aggressor is your friend, you call them terrorists.

Heck, withdrawing to 1967 borders and a Palestine statehood have majority support even in Israel, jews and arabs, for crying out lound.

The "Israel is always ever defending, the others are always the aggressor" crowd is standing in the way of peace in middle east.

And since the semites in Israel want what you obviouslydon't want, your position is in fact real life anti-semitic.

Best regards
Thomas
Last edited by tommy1808 on Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
This Singature is a safe space......
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 6102
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:09 pm

tommy1808 wrote:
Heck, withdrawing to 1967 borders and a Palestine statehood have majority support even in Israel, kews and arabs, for crying out lound.


Palestinians are not the most beloved people in the Arab world either, just look how they are tread all over the Middle East, perhaps the only positive exception is Jordan.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Planeflyer
Posts: 1021
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:49 am

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Wed Feb 14, 2018 6:48 pm

Tommy, if you had the types of foes Israel faces wold you retreat to the 1967 borders?

For all you civilized European critics of Israel do I dare remind you of why she exists in the first place?

Back to the tactical situation, the F35's are going to be need real soon for Hezbolah and Iran are clearly putting in place equipment to start large scale rocket launches.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 8419
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:40 pm

Planeflyer wrote:
Tommy, if you had the types of foes Israel faces wold you retreat to the 1967 borders?


I grew up expecting the red army and the nuclear holocaust any day, it never crossed my mind to occupy Poland or even take east Germany by force to create a buffer zone, with the people living there stripped of basic human right and/or their right of self determination.
And that wasn't an unable foe as the armies surrounding Israel, that couldn't win on the hight of their military might.

Back to the tactical situation, the F35's are going to be need real soon for Hezbolah and Iran are clearly putting in place equipment to start large scale rocket launches.


Back to the tactical situation, Iraq needs high end weaponry, they are going to needed real soon for the US, UK,...,... are clearly putting in place heavy equipment to start a large scale invasion.

Back to the tactical situation, Hitler really needs the A-bomb real soon, because the allies are really putting equipment in place to end his nation.

Sounds wrong? Well.. it should....

I don't think Israel will be allowed to fly it's F35 without reflectors in any situation other than open war whenever it may stray close enough to a radar to map it's characteristics.

That being said, the F35 will give the IAF so much superiority over its neighbours that your "enemy at the gates" arguments gets knocked so flat it isn't even visible anymore.

For all you civilized European critics of Israel do I dare remind you of why she exists in the first place?


So the US should occupy Chile to make a new home for the natives? Heck, if they need their own nation, give them Bavaria or Macpom.

Best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
aa87
Posts: 256
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:37 am

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:39 pm

I've taken the liberty of starting a Bash Israel thread on Non-Aviation. Hope that helps.

Now, if anyone has anything intelligent to say or ask about the MILITARY AVIATION aspects of the IAF F-16 incident, I would be interested in reading that.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 10295
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:55 pm

Let's cite some parts of the original JPOST article :

According to IDF Spokesman Brig.-Gen. Ronen Manelis, while the drone was Iranian and navigated by Iranian operators, Syria’s choice to fire its air defenses against Israeli jets shows that it has chosen to interfere in Israel’s fight against the Islamic Republic’s activity in the country.


Isn't that a general complaining that its aircraft engaged in war were shot at ?

Later, there is even this totally ridiculous quote :

“It was the most extensive Syrian antiaircraft attack since 1982,”


Antiaircraft attack ! You were doing the attack, it was antiaircraft defense !
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
salttee
Posts: 2470
Joined: Wed Jul 13, 2016 3:26 am

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:11 pm

Aesma wrote:
“It was the most extensive Syrian antiaircraft attack since 1982,”


That is classic. That's up there with "we had to destroy the village in order to save it".
 
Ozair
Posts: 2694
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Wed Feb 14, 2018 11:47 pm

aa87 wrote:
I've taken the liberty of starting a Bash Israel thread on Non-Aviation. Hope that helps.

Now, if anyone has anything intelligent to say or ask about the MILITARY AVIATION aspects of the IAF F-16 incident, I would be interested in reading that.


So this flight global has some interesting info, https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... en-445921/

A sequence of events that began with the shooting down of an Iranian copy of the Lockheed Martin RQ-170 Sentinel stealth unmanned air vehicle led to an Israeli air force Lockheed F-16I being shot down, and a massive aerial attack being launched against at least a dozen targets inside Syria.
Brig Gen Tomer Bar, second in command of the Israeli air force, says the Israeli strike inside Syria was "the biggest and most significant attack the air force has conducted against Syrian air defences" since the 1982 Lebanon War.
The chain of events erupted in the early hours of 10 February, a few minutes after the Iranian UAV was detected, when an Israeli Boeing AH-64 Apache attack helicopter shot it down with its chin-mounted cannon.
An F-16I "Sufa" fighter arrived at the border area from a base in northern Israel a few minutes later, and was met with heavy fire from Syrian surface-to-air missile batteries: mainly Russian-made SA-5 systems.

Some things noted later in the article,
- Israeli sources indicate that at least 20 missiles were launched towards the fighter, which was damaged after one exploded close to it.
- the air force located the mobile ground control station that has been used to operate the Iranian UAV, and this was destroyed as it tried to escape.
- Israel launched a massive attack on Syrian- and Iranian-manned surface-to-air missile batteries, some positioned far from the border. At least 12 such targets – including three air-defence batteries and a base on the outskirts of the capital, Damascus – were destroyed.
 
Planeflyer
Posts: 1021
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:49 am

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:45 am

Good info, thanks.

Tommy, as bad as the Soviets were they never repeatedly threatened to exterminate the West.
 
User avatar
SeJoWa
Posts: 507
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 6:11 pm

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Thu Feb 15, 2018 9:56 am

Interesting to hear from the Israeli Generals. Also, a thread was created expressly for those who need to bitch about their every word.

Ozair, thanks for the link to useful information.

Sending an Apache is remarkable to me, I surmise that was to get visuals on the target?

As an aside, I'll never forget the caricature I saw that hailed from the time of the elder Assad's dictatorship: a mountain of skulls with the star of David.
It could just as well have originated in the thousand year Reich.

An Iranian "copy" of the SQ-170 isn't my problem, rather the analysis of its parts performed in Russian and possibly Chinese labs.
 
User avatar
Phosphorus
Posts: 254
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 11:38 am

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:26 am

SeJoWa wrote:

Sending an Apache is remarkable to me, I surmise that was to get visuals on the target?


Soviet air-defence principles, when dealing with low-speed, small radar signature contacts, were revolutionized by Mathias Rust debacle. It's difficult to identify a target, when your stall speed is multiples of target's speed, and IFF doesn't respond.
After that, USSR air-defence troops got attack helicopters (Mi-24, primarily).

I'm sure Israelis are well aware of that conundrum, and thus the first look was taken by an Apache.
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
Ceterum autem censeo, Moscovia esse delendam
 
Ozair
Posts: 2694
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Thu Feb 15, 2018 8:45 pm

SeJoWa wrote:
Interesting to hear from the Israeli Generals. Also, a thread was created expressly for those who need to bitch about their every word.

Ozair, thanks for the link to useful information.

Sending an Apache is remarkable to me, I surmise that was to get visuals on the target?

We can certainly trust Israel to be novel in their approach. I cringe to be the Apache pilot that navigated through that terrain and in that threat environment to get into position. I also marvel at the 20 missiles fired at the F-16 before one detonated close enough to impact the jet and then to follow that through with twelve separate targets in the largest offensive into Syria since 1982. If the Syrians and Iranians keep launching at that rate they will soon run out of SAMs.

Will be interesting to see what happens in the next few months. While there is a chance it could escalate further I think all three don’t want to take this further than they need to. Israel made a point and I think all sides will back off for a few months and lick their wounds.

Planeflyer wrote:
Back to the tactical situation, the F35's are going to be need real soon for Hezbolah and Iran are clearly putting in place equipment to start large scale rocket launches.

Will be interesting to see how Israel operate them in that type of conflict. The F-35 could quite easily sit, essentially unarmed, above the battlefield and use its sensors to feed targets back to rear aircraft and artillery. Would be an effective means of identifying launch locations and putting fire directly onto those areas ASAP.

There is an account from an Israeli Air Force general from last year that talks about how amazing the difference is in flying an F-35 over Israel, he stated that once the aircraft reaches a certain altitude you see literally every threat the region has to offer and that the jet informs and warns you of all the issues and concerns

tommy1808 wrote:
I don't think Israel will be allowed to fly it's F35 without reflectors in any situation other than open war whenever it may stray close enough to a radar to map it's characteristics.

Not so sure. Reports are American F-35s are now flying around North Korea without reflectors so it is certainly possible Israel could do it.
 
Planeflyer
Posts: 1021
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:49 am

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Fri Feb 16, 2018 3:20 am

Israel will need all the capability it can muster for the coming battles with Iran and Hezbolah. A clash is all but certain and it will be interesting to see how the Arabs react.
 
aa87
Posts: 256
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 11:37 am

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:20 pm

Anyone have any insight on whether the crew had any guidance on where to eject ? From little published info sounds like they bailed out in a matter of seconds after shrapnel impacts, and I assume it was pure luck that the plan came down in a small, uninhabited area ?
 
tommy1808
Posts: 8419
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Fri Feb 16, 2018 2:31 pm

Ozair wrote:
Not so sure. Reports are American F-35s are now flying around North Korea without reflectors so it is certainly possible Israel could do it.


I don´t think we can be sure, but in terms of advanced radar and SAM systems Northkorea is probably a different ballgame than Syria.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
Planeflyer
Posts: 1021
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:49 am

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:36 pm

Anybody know what kind of Sam systems NK has?
 
User avatar
Phosphorus
Posts: 254
Joined: Tue May 16, 2017 11:38 am

Re: Israeli's Loose an F-16

Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:26 pm

a brief list of what's on NK's inventory:
https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/04/01/wh ... look-like/

In any case, Syria contains S-400 (SA-21), unavailable to NK, and supposedly more advanced than anything NK has (so theoretically, threat in Syria is higher). However, these are owned and operated by Russians, and they seem to have some kind of tacit agreement with Israelis not to shoot at each other.
AN4 A40 L4T TU3 TU5 IL6 ILW I93 F50 F70 100 146 ARJ AT7 DH4 L10 CRJ ERJ E90 DC-9 MD-8X YK4 YK2 SF3 S20 319 320 321 332 333 343 346 722 732 733 734 735 73G 738 739 744 74M 757 767 777
Ceterum autem censeo, Moscovia esse delendam

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: wingman and 10 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos