Ozair
Posts: 2876
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Mon Jan 08, 2018 10:00 pm

Mortyman wrote:
Nicoeddf wrote:
Mortyman wrote:

There is a multinational training base in Arizona where various countries has based training Aircraft. Before Christmas, a Norwegian F-35 pilot flew a US F-35 up to Alaska to test the drag chute on the icy runway.


So why then would Denmark face the risk of keeping 5+ A/C out of 27 in the US? That tells me, apart from the odd training/test mission there is no systematic approach to train NATO pilots on common combat platforms.


It's a pool of training Aircraft wich includes training Aircraft from every nation I beleave.

That is correct. It is a pooled arrangement as per below.

As the world’s premier conventional F-35 training base, Luke is currently training pilots and instructors for the USA, Australia, Norway, Italy – and soon F-35 foreign military sales customers Japan and Israel. Other programme partners – the Netherlands, Turkey and possibly Denmark and Canada – will also join the pooling arrangement, where they share aircraft and instructors.

Luke will grow to six F-35 training squadrons, and will soon reactivate its third unit – the 63rd Fighter Squadron, which trained F-16C/D pilots until it disbanded in 2009.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ts-420797/

Nicoeddf wrote:
So why then would Denmark face the risk of keeping 5+ A/C out of 27 in the US? That tells me, apart from the odd training/test mission there is no systematic approach to train NATO pilots on common combat platforms.

It is primarily all about airspace. Luke AFB is located next to the following,

An integral part of Luke's F-16 fighter pilot training mission is the Barry M. Goldwater Air Force Range. The range consists of 1,900,000 acres (7,700 km2) of relatively undisturbed Sonoran Desert southwest of Luke Air Force Base between Yuma and Tucson south of Interstate 8. Overhead are 57,000 cubic miles (240,000 km3) of airspace where pilots practice air-to-air maneuvers and engage simulated battlefield targets on the ground. Roughly the size of Connecticut, the immense size of the complex allows for simultaneous training activities on nine air-to-ground and two air-to-air ranges. The Luke Air Force Base Range Management Office manages the eastern range activities and Marine Corps Air Station Yuma oversees operations on the western portion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luke_Air_Force_Base
 
CX747
Posts: 6038
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:17 am

VSMUT wrote:
CX747 wrote:
WHO is complaining about having jets at Luke AFB to train with?


Err, the taxpayers who are paying for the aircraft to defend the country and its interests? Upwards of a third of the fleet will be stuck 9000 km away from where they are needed.




Several things wrong here.

1: Taxpayers aren't upset....You are upset.....about everything F-35.
2: The aircraft aren't stuck.
3: The aircraft are actually where they are NEEDED, which is in a fabulous training location.

Good luck to all the incoming B course guys.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
ThePointblank
Posts: 3035
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 pm

Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:32 am

Nicoeddf wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
Nicoeddf wrote:
By the way, and maybe a totally naive question: Why isn't a multinational training squadron established, where you basically pay per hour of aircraft and instructor use. I know, simplified, but you get the idea.

Wouldn't that help to increase training efficiency and increase forward availablity of A/C where they are really needed?


There is a multinational training base in Arizona where various countries has based training Aircraft. Before Christmas, a Norwegian F-35 pilot flew a US F-35 up to Alaska to test the drag chute on the icy runway.


So why then would Denmark face the risk of keeping 5+ A/C out of 27 in the US? That tells me, apart from the odd training/test mission there is no systematic approach to train NATO pilots on common combat platforms.

Unless Denmark is willing to develop and build massive training ranges and facilities in Denmark to train Danish F-35 pilots in the use of their aircraft, build them far enough from populated centres for safety and noise mitigation, and also allocate the air space to deconflict the skies for the trainee pilots, the Danes have to do their training in the US, as the US has the air space and facilities to conduct the training.
 
JJJ
Posts: 3011
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:17 am

ThePointblank wrote:
Nicoeddf wrote:
Mortyman wrote:

There is a multinational training base in Arizona where various countries has based training Aircraft. Before Christmas, a Norwegian F-35 pilot flew a US F-35 up to Alaska to test the drag chute on the icy runway.


So why then would Denmark face the risk of keeping 5+ A/C out of 27 in the US? That tells me, apart from the odd training/test mission there is no systematic approach to train NATO pilots on common combat platforms.

Unless Denmark is willing to develop and build massive training ranges and facilities in Denmark to train Danish F-35 pilots in the use of their aircraft, build them far enough from populated centres for safety and noise mitigation, and also allocate the air space to deconflict the skies for the trainee pilots, the Danes have to do their training in the US, as the US has the air space and facilities to conduct the training.


They could do it in Spain, there are two massive air space areas blocked for military, far from populated areas.

That's where most major NATO combat exercises in Europe take place.
 
ThePointblank
Posts: 3035
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 pm

Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:35 am

JJJ wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
Nicoeddf wrote:

So why then would Denmark face the risk of keeping 5+ A/C out of 27 in the US? That tells me, apart from the odd training/test mission there is no systematic approach to train NATO pilots on common combat platforms.

Unless Denmark is willing to develop and build massive training ranges and facilities in Denmark to train Danish F-35 pilots in the use of their aircraft, build them far enough from populated centres for safety and noise mitigation, and also allocate the air space to deconflict the skies for the trainee pilots, the Danes have to do their training in the US, as the US has the air space and facilities to conduct the training.


They could do it in Spain, there are two massive air space areas blocked for military, far from populated areas.

That's where most major NATO combat exercises in Europe take place.

The Danes will also need to procure and operate a fleet of trainer aircraft to train Danish pilots in basic airmanship skills. They currently don't, and rely on the USAF's pilot training system to do so.
 
Nicoeddf
Posts: 820
Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:13 am

Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:24 am

ThePointblank wrote:
Nicoeddf wrote:
Mortyman wrote:

There is a multinational training base in Arizona where various countries has based training Aircraft. Before Christmas, a Norwegian F-35 pilot flew a US F-35 up to Alaska to test the drag chute on the icy runway.


So why then would Denmark face the risk of keeping 5+ A/C out of 27 in the US? That tells me, apart from the odd training/test mission there is no systematic approach to train NATO pilots on common combat platforms.

Unless Denmark is willing to develop and build massive training ranges and facilities in Denmark to train Danish F-35 pilots in the use of their aircraft, build them far enough from populated centres for safety and noise mitigation, and also allocate the air space to deconflict the skies for the trainee pilots, the Danes have to do their training in the US, as the US has the air space and facilities to conduct the training.


Not sure why the tone has to be so condescending. But maybe it only comes across that way *shrug*

However, in my quest for knowledge, I am not criticising the Danes for training in the US, I am aware of the advantages, so no need to defend that portion. I'd rather wanted to know if it wouldn't be beneficial for everybody to uphold a dedicated training fleet of F35 for mulitnational use, rather than keeping 1/5th of the operating fleet overseas.
Enslave yourself to the divine disguised as salvation
that your bought with your sacrifice
Deception justified for your holy design
High on our platform spewing out your crimes
from the altar of god
 
JJJ
Posts: 3011
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:42 am

ThePointblank wrote:
JJJ wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
Unless Denmark is willing to develop and build massive training ranges and facilities in Denmark to train Danish F-35 pilots in the use of their aircraft, build them far enough from populated centres for safety and noise mitigation, and also allocate the air space to deconflict the skies for the trainee pilots, the Danes have to do their training in the US, as the US has the air space and facilities to conduct the training.


They could do it in Spain, there are two massive air space areas blocked for military, far from populated areas.

That's where most major NATO combat exercises in Europe take place.

The Danes will also need to procure and operate a fleet of trainer aircraft to train Danish pilots in basic airmanship skills. They currently don't, and rely on the USAF's pilot training system to do so.


They can pool up with another euro NATO air force that operates the type. No need for valuable (and expensive) fighter a/c to be stationed half a world away.
 
Ozair
Posts: 2876
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Wed Jan 10, 2018 8:43 pm

JJJ wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
JJJ wrote:

They could do it in Spain, there are two massive air space areas blocked for military, far from populated areas.

That's where most major NATO combat exercises in Europe take place.

The Danes will also need to procure and operate a fleet of trainer aircraft to train Danish pilots in basic airmanship skills. They currently don't, and rely on the USAF's pilot training system to do so.


They can pool up with another euro NATO air force that operates the type. No need for valuable (and expensive) fighter a/c to be stationed half a world away.

This really is a storm in a teacup. From information stated by the Danish Ministry of Defence it appears that a vast majority or even all of the fleet will be based in Denmark.

As for the need for any jets to be stationed permanently in the US, there are numerous benefits if they do including the already mentioned joint training pool at Luke AFB for F-35 operators. To train aircrew at Luke Denmark will obviously have to contribute something and they may see some aircraft stationed there as a viable solution. If things hot up in Europe and Denmark wanted to recall their jets there would likely be a procession of fighter aircraft crossing the Atlantic and Danish jets would have no problem adding to the group. Given Denmark are expecting to contribute only 4-6 jets to any international Coalition having two or five or even seven in the US training Danish pilots until required seems reasonable.

Additionally, when participating in joint exercises Danish jets will not have to make a journey over the pond but can use jets stationed in country. I also doubt that Spain and other European Air Force ranges will allow F-35 operators to exercise their jets to the full extent due to security restrictions, something that will be possible in the US at Nellis and other locations.
 
ThePointblank
Posts: 3035
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 pm

Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:19 pm

JJJ wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
JJJ wrote:

They could do it in Spain, there are two massive air space areas blocked for military, far from populated areas.

That's where most major NATO combat exercises in Europe take place.

The Danes will also need to procure and operate a fleet of trainer aircraft to train Danish pilots in basic airmanship skills. They currently don't, and rely on the USAF's pilot training system to do so.


They can pool up with another euro NATO air force that operates the type. No need for valuable (and expensive) fighter a/c to be stationed half a world away.

Such as whom?

The Dutch and Norwegians conduct their pilot training in the US as well.
The British will be operating the F-35B, so their experience won't work.
The Italians do conduct some pilot training in Italy, but they also send pilots to the US for training as well.

So, whom are the Danes going to partner with? Who are the Danes going to partner with that can offer the whole spectrum of training with the fidelity and quality that can be provided in the US?
 
JJJ
Posts: 3011
Joined: Wed May 31, 2006 5:12 pm

Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Thu Jan 11, 2018 12:39 pm

ThePointblank wrote:
JJJ wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
The Danes will also need to procure and operate a fleet of trainer aircraft to train Danish pilots in basic airmanship skills. They currently don't, and rely on the USAF's pilot training system to do so.


They can pool up with another euro NATO air force that operates the type. No need for valuable (and expensive) fighter a/c to be stationed half a world away.

Such as whom?

The Dutch and Norwegians conduct their pilot training in the US as well.
The British will be operating the F-35B, so their experience won't work.
The Italians do conduct some pilot training in Italy, but they also send pilots to the US for training as well.

So, whom are the Danes going to partner with? Who are the Danes going to partner with that can offer the whole spectrum of training with the fidelity and quality that can be provided in the US?


It's up to them. They should have decided that before finding out that permanently stationing 1/5 of their a/c across the Atlantic was an issue.

With +300 airframes in Europe (I'm counting the Turks in) you should be able to make a decent joint training fleet.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 6694
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Thu Jan 11, 2018 5:48 pm

JJJ wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
JJJ wrote:

They can pool up with another euro NATO air force that operates the type. No need for valuable (and expensive) fighter a/c to be stationed half a world away.

Such as whom?

The Dutch and Norwegians conduct their pilot training in the US as well.
The British will be operating the F-35B, so their experience won't work.
The Italians do conduct some pilot training in Italy, but they also send pilots to the US for training as well.

So, whom are the Danes going to partner with? Who are the Danes going to partner with that can offer the whole spectrum of training with the fidelity and quality that can be provided in the US?


It's up to them. They should have decided that before finding out that permanently stationing 1/5 of their a/c across the Atlantic was an issue.

With +300 airframes in Europe (I'm counting the Turks in) you should be able to make a decent joint training fleet.


There are way more F-16's in Europe and they never did something like that.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
CX747
Posts: 6038
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 2:54 am

Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Fri Jan 12, 2018 2:13 am

The overall reality is training for the F-35 is based out of Luke AFB in a similar fashion to F-16 training conducted over the past several decades. The infrastructure of Luke to include massive aerial ranges, remote fields and year round flying ability are unrivaled. Nearby bases provide the ability to train against F-15, F-16, F/A-18, A-10 and AV-8 aircraft. Let's not forget that the USAF and USN have a massive number of IPs with relevant/recent combat time and experience. Soak that up like a sponge. This in addition to the previously mentioned fact that Nellis AFB is a quick hop away and that base's training regimentation is emulated throughout the world and the picture is becoming clearer.

The F-35 shop is at Luke AFB and so is the best training money can buy. That is reality and why the Danes are there.
"History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or timid." D. Eisenhower
 
Ozair
Posts: 2876
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Tue Feb 20, 2018 11:14 am

Denmark is going through the financial work to acquire the F-35.

Denmark positions F-35 funds

The Danish Central Bank has completed the hedging of payments of USD3.7 billion so that the department of defence is able to acquire the Lockheed Martin F-35 Joint Strike Fighter at fixed price in its local currency.

Copenhagen agreed in 2016 to acquire 27 conventional take-off and landing F-35A variants of the fighter to replace its incumbent F-16 fleet, and has hedged the dollars so that they are available at a fixed price when they are needed.

This process commenced at the beginning of 2018, the bank said, and has now been completed.

“The process of entering into forwards, which ensure a fixed price of dollars when the government needs them has been smooth,” Frank Nielsen, assistant governor of the bank, said.

http://www.janes.com/article/77999/denm ... f-35-funds
 
Ozair
Posts: 2876
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Wed Mar 14, 2018 2:30 am

Another sign the Danish acquisition of the F-35 is in trouble... ;)

Terma announces teaming for new F-35 avionics test centre

Terma and Scandinavian Avionics have teamed to form an avionics test centre in Denmark to offer support for the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter in Europe.

Avionics Test Center Denmark will combine the maintenance, repair, and overhaul (MRO) experience of Scandinavian Avionics with the electronic and software experience of Terma to provide test and repair of the avionics on board the fighter.

“In order to provide best value to the F-35 programme, Terma and Scandinavian Avionics decided to team up to form Avionics Test Center Denmark,” Jens Maaløe, president and CEO of Terma, says.

“We both aim to enhance and grow our MRO capabilities towards the F-35 programme with specific focus on the test and repair of F-35 avionics.”

http://www.janes.com/article/78549/term ... est-centre
 
Ozair
Posts: 2876
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:44 am

No surprise given Boeing couldn't identify what documents they wanted access to.

Boeing loses case against Denmark over fighter jet deal

Boeing lost a lawsuit against Denmark on Friday which related to the Danish government's decision to buy Lockheed Martin's F-35 Lightning II combat jets in preference to Boeing's F/A 18 Super Hornets.

Boeing had taken Denmark to court over a lack of access to documents used in the government's decision to buy the Lockheed Martin jets.

"The court has found that the authorities' decisions on refusal of access to the documents are legal and valid," Copenhagen's city court said in a summary of the verdict on its website on Friday.

Boeing said it was disappointed by the decision and would now review it and consider how to proceed.

After Denmark decided to buy 27 of Lockheed Martin's new warplanes in 2016, Boeing complained that the evaluation process for the planes competing for the order had been "flawed" and demanded access to the documents in the case.

"Boeing initiated this legal action to gain a better understanding of the evaluation process, in which we believe the Ministry made a number of critical errors and omissions in its evaluation," Boeing said in a statement on Friday.

Denmark's defense ministry had denied Boeing access because the U.S. company had not specified which documents it wanted to see, and that it would too large a task to find all documents since preparations for the order began in 2005.

http://kfgo.com/news/articles/2018/mar/ ... -purchase/
 
Ozair
Posts: 2876
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:08 pm

Denmark have delayed the acquisition of the F-35 by six months because a new hanger won’t be built in time. Apparently to reduce the noise footprint at Skveststrup Airport the F-35 complex was moved to the southwest and construction won’t be finished until 2024.

As the article states first delivery in Denmark will move from the end of 2022 to April 2023 and the F-16 will now leave Danish service in 2025 instead of 2024.

Article via google translate.

Danske F-16-fly får et halvt år mere i luften


The Danish F-16 fighter aircraft will fly half a year longer than planned. Defense Minister Claus Hjort Frederiksens (V) report to the Folketing's Defense Committee. It writes the news media Altinget.

The F-16 planes will be phased out in 2024 when the defense has enough new F-35 fighters. But the hangar of the new fighter aircraft is delayed. Therefore, F-16 aircraft must be on the wings well six months longer than planned. "As we know, in the spring we chose to move the location of the F-35 complex to the southwest of Skveststrup Airport, to reduce the nuisance of the terminal noise as much as possible," writes Claus Hjort Frederiksen.

The changed location implies a delay in construction, so the hangar complex will not be ready to receive the first aircraft at the end of 2022 as planned so far, "the note states.

The defense would solve the problem by getting the new F-35 fighters abroad. Then we could handle the aircraft, even though we could not keep them in Denmark. Now you choose another solution, explains the defense minister.

"However, since there has been less wear on the F-16 aircraft in the last two years than assumed (...), we instead have chosen to handle the construction delay by operating operatively a little longer with F-16," says Claus Hjort Frederiksen .

At the same time, delivery of the first F-35 at Flyvestation Skrydstrup will be moved from the end of 2022 to April 2023.

The Ministry of Defense informs Altinget that the F-16 planes are retired about six months later. They are not phased out from the end of 2024, but in the first half of 2025.


https://www.b.dk/politiko/danske-f-16-f ... e-i-luften
 
User avatar
Mortyman
Posts: 5418
Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 8:26 pm

Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Tue Jul 03, 2018 8:59 pm

I still don't understand why they are only buying 27 ? I think it's a very low number.
 
Ozair
Posts: 2876
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Tue Jul 03, 2018 9:44 pm

Mortyman wrote:
I still don't understand why they are only buying 27 ? I think it's a very low number.


I agree it is a low number but Denmark only operate 30 F-16 today so moving to 27 F-35, with the potential to top that number up at a later date given the long production run or the possibility of older airframes from other partner nations being available, should be sufficient.
 
Ozair
Posts: 2876
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Mon Aug 27, 2018 10:45 pm

More storm in a teacup reporting about noise around Skrydstrup.

Danish Defense Ministry Grilled Over Hushing Up F-35 Noise Levels

The Danish Defense Ministry's unverified claims about the noise levels of the future backbone of the Scandinavian country's air force may add extra costs to the divisive multi-billion krone purchase, experts suggest.
Defense Minister Claus Hjort Frederiksen of the ruling Liberal Party has misled the Danish parliament in matters pertaining to the noise levels of the F-35 fighters before allocating billions for the procurement of the fifth generation US combat jets, two experts claimed in an interview with the Jyllands-Posten daily.
According to Jyllands-Posten, Frederiksen failed to inform the parliament about problems with measures to ensure that the residents in the vicinity of Skrydstrup air base in South Jutland won't be affected by the noise.

https://sputniknews.com/military/201808 ... f35-noise/
 
VSMUT
Topic Author
Posts: 1968
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:17 am

https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/politik/forsv ... om-kampfly

The minister of defence deliberately misled parliament on the noise levels.

Mortyman wrote:
I still don't understand why they are only buying 27 ? I think it's a very low number.


It is 21, with an additional 6 if the funding is ever found.

So far that haven't even been able to fund the initial 21.
 
VSMUT
Topic Author
Posts: 1968
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:24 am

https://ing.dk/artikel/danmark-faar-ikk ... -35-214011

Denmark won't be getting access to the source codes. Above mentioned minister of defence insists that it is of no importance...
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 8282
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Tue Aug 28, 2018 3:57 pm

VSMUT wrote:
https://ing.dk/artikel/danmark-faar-ikke-adgang-kildekoder-f-35-214011

Denmark won't be getting access to the source codes. Above mentioned minister of defence insists that it is of no importance...

Gee, that is news? From the article:
For F-35, as for several of the military's other capabilities, including the F-16 aircraft, Denmark has no full access to all source codes in the embedded software. For F-35, Denmark, like all other F35 users, is to a large extent dependent on our allies and partners,


"Source code" is almost always secured to the original supplier, to both protect it and keep it current (not to mention copyrights and that the developer of it owns it basically -p.s. US I know the USG own it actually since they paid for it under a USG contract etc.).

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 8282
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Tue Aug 28, 2018 4:05 pm

VSMUT wrote:
https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/politik/forsvarsministeren-beskyldes-vildledning-om-kampfly

The minister of defence deliberately misled parliament on the noise levels.

Hmmm.... not sure. Looks like he wanted approval for reducing thrust take-offs but that no one was willing to sign off on it. That is still possible to be done as the program develops and better knows the flight limits.

The "increased chance of crashing" due to reduced thrust would indeed be an issue for anyone singing off on it. But is not an unusual thing for no one being willing to volunteer to accept added risk. My guess is the program and Danish partners will work together to find the best possible noise profile for the jets operation is Denmark.

I myself am waiting to see how loud they are when they arrive to the base near me. I have my concerns but I also know there will be work done to mitigate any increase noise level.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
Ozair
Posts: 2876
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:41 pm

Tugger wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
https://ing.dk/artikel/danmark-faar-ikke-adgang-kildekoder-f-35-214011

Denmark won't be getting access to the source codes. Above mentioned minister of defence insists that it is of no importance...

Gee, that is news? From the article:
For F-35, as for several of the military's other capabilities, including the F-16 aircraft, Denmark has no full access to all source codes in the embedded software. For F-35, Denmark, like all other F35 users, is to a large extent dependent on our allies and partners,


"Source code" is almost always secured to the original supplier, to both protect it and keep it current (not to mention copyrights and that the developer of it owns it basically -p.s. US I know the USG own it actually since they paid for it under a USG contract etc.).

Tugg

Ha. Reality is Denmark and other nations don't need the source code anyway. The open architecture of the software means they can integrate whatever weapon and sensors they want onto the aircraft through the external interfaces.

Tugger wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
https://www.dr.dk/nyheder/politik/forsvarsministeren-beskyldes-vildledning-om-kampfly

The minister of defence deliberately misled parliament on the noise levels.

Hmmm.... not sure. Looks like he wanted approval for reducing thrust take-offs but that no one was willing to sign off on it. That is still possible to be done as the program develops and better knows the flight limits.

The "increased chance of crashing" due to reduced thrust would indeed be an issue for anyone singing off on it. But is not an unusual thing for no one being willing to volunteer to accept added risk. My guess is the program and Danish partners will work together to find the best possible noise profile for the jets operation is Denmark.

I myself am waiting to see how loud they are when they arrive to the base near me. I have my concerns but I also know there will be work done to mitigate any increase noise level.

Tugg

There is a reason I stated storm in a teacup. The jet is perfectly capable of reduced thrust takeoffs. The need for afterburner on takeoff is only when the jet is heavily loaded and the runway is short. The Danes are perfectly capable of lowering the load of the jet for a majority missions they conduct with no operational or training loss. They have also already decided to move the basing to another part of the field to reduce the noise impact.

But to put this whole thing into the context it deserves, the RAAF recently extended the runway at RAAF Williamtown for the sole reason to provide lower thrust take-off for the F-35A when it starts operations there in late 2018.

“The extension of the runway allows the F-35A aircraft to take-off without the use of afterburner, which will reduce noise impacts to the Base and surrounds,” Williamtown Senior Australian Defence Force Officer, Air Commodore Craig Heap said.

http://www.newsofthearea.com.au/raaf-ba ... pens-16316


Surprise surprise, the extended runway at RAAF Williamtown went from 2450m to 3050m, or very close to the existing length of Skrydstrup whose dual runway takeoff distance is 3119m and 3230m.

So we have an existing partner nation who is already planning, and will be conducting non afterburner takeoff from their shorter runway than the Danes, and yet apparently with a longer runway no one will sign off on non afterburner takeoffs in Denmark...
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 8282
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Tue Aug 28, 2018 9:50 pm

Ozair wrote:
So we have an existing partner nation who is already planning, and will be conducting non afterburner takeoff from their shorter runway than the Danes, and yet apparently with a longer runway no one will sign off on non afterburner takeoffs in Denmark...

Well that likely bodes well for Miramar in the USA and its 12000ft/3658m runway. They will likely also do non-afterburner takeoffs as well.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
Ozair
Posts: 2876
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Thu Aug 30, 2018 6:25 am

Tugger wrote:
Ozair wrote:
So we have an existing partner nation who is already planning, and will be conducting non afterburner takeoff from their shorter runway than the Danes, and yet apparently with a longer runway no one will sign off on non afterburner takeoffs in Denmark...

Well that likely bodes well for Miramar in the USA and its 12000ft/3658m runway. They will likely also do non-afterburner takeoffs as well.

Tugg

To add to the above I found this info on training operations at Luke AFB from January 2017 noting that Luke has 3059m and 3019m dual runways.

Something else about "ground ops". It's time to get in the air. We usually take off in "MIL Power" - full engine without afterburner. The machine accelerates smoothly and steadily in MIL. With afterburner, acceleration is impressive, especially now lately when it has been "cold" here in Phoenix. When it comes time to lift the nose - to rotate - for departure, I have to move the stick back about halfway, relative to the rear stop. Nesa lifts slowly at first, but evenly and controllably, when the nose wheel "releases the roof" (in the ground). It is easy to point the plane to the desired attitude for attitude and there are no tendencies to overcorrect.

When the aircraft is in the air it is again clear that the machine has a powerful engine. We tend to climb by between five and 10 degree increments - which is quite steep. Even in "MIL power," the machine still accelerates well. As I pass the end of the runway, the plane has happily passed 300 knots. (The airplane climbs ready right after takeoff with a five-degree increase of 300 knots with less than half-power. In addition, full sliding with afterburner is described as 150% engine power). I had the pleasure of being the instructor on the first flight to a colleague with a background of hunter bombs. He said so: "I did not think performance like that was possible!"

https://nettsteder.regjeringen.no/kampf ... en-i-f-35/ (Google translated text)
 
VSMUT
Topic Author
Posts: 1968
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:01 am

Ozair wrote:
There is a reason I stated storm in a teacup. The jet is perfectly capable of reduced thrust takeoffs. The need for afterburner on takeoff is only when the jet is heavily loaded and the runway is short. The Danes are perfectly capable of lowering the load of the jet for a majority missions they conduct with no operational or training loss. They have also already decided to move the basing to another part of the field to reduce the noise impact.

But to put this whole thing into the context it deserves, the RAAF recently extended the runway at RAAF Williamtown for the sole reason to provide lower thrust take-off for the F-35A when it starts operations there in late 2018.

So we have an existing partner nation who is already planning, and will be conducting non afterburner takeoff from their shorter runway than the Danes, and yet apparently with a longer runway no one will sign off on non afterburner takeoffs in Denmark...


Nice try, but as the article clearly states, it's Lockheed Martin and the JPO who are refusing to certify non-afterburner takeoff.
 
Ozair
Posts: 2876
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Thu Aug 30, 2018 9:28 am

VSMUT wrote:

Nice try, but as the article clearly states, it's Lockheed Martin and the JPO who are refusing to certify non-afterburner takeoff.

Come back to reality mate...

Australia, the US and Norway are all flying non afterburner takeoffs. Do you honestly think the article is correct when the evidence is demonstratively clear that it is not only possible but various nations have been doing it for multiple years?

What does the JPO and LM have to do with certifying a non afterburner take off anyway, the concept is that they are responsible is absurd. It is simply junk journalism.
 
User avatar
Tugger
Posts: 8282
Joined: Tue Apr 18, 2006 8:38 am

Re: Danish JSF plans in trouble

Thu Aug 30, 2018 3:12 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Nice try, but as the article clearly states, it's Lockheed Martin and the JPO who are refusing to certify non-afterburner takeoff.

You are confused, LM and the JPO have long certified the F-35 for "non-afterburner takeoff", it is normal for it to T/O with "military power" (full thrust, non-afterburner) and has been for years. That is in fact what it started out with.

http://www.f-16.net/f-35-news-article2656.html

The question now is a "reduced power" i.e. not military power, T/O. They desire is for a lower power T/O, it is not about afterburner.

And basically the JPO and LM don't want to, and frankly don't need to right now, accept liability if something doesn't go right under those conditions. Which still doesn't mean it can't be done or won't happen. Just that the national military doing such accepts the risks and its concurrent burdens. Basically like a car manufacturer not certifying their cars for outside the envelope activities. Doesn't mean it can't be done, and done safely, just that the risk is on the owner and the manufacturer doesn't "approve".

Ultimately I am positive that there will be a certified reduced power T/O option due the number of bases in and near populations centers that will demand it. (Partner nations can't do what Congress members getting an ear-full from their constituents will do.)

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos