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Mortyman
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Norway is consdiering cancelling troublesome order ...

Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:45 am

The Norwegian Armed Forces considers the NH90 contract to be broken and "considering alternative solutions" after 11 years of delays in the NH90 helicopters. The Defense Staff now put down a working group to look at different alternatives. A cancellation is probably not excluded.

Norway agreed back in 2001 to buy 14 NH90 helicopters. The manufacturer, NHIndustries, was to supply eight helicopters to the Coast Guard and six to the Navy. According to the contract, the helicopters would be delivered in the summer of 2006. But they never were.. Today, more than 11 years after, only six helicopters are delivered to the Coast Guard. But these are not finished and certified editions. For example, they can not be used in bad weather. The frigates, for their part, have not yet one flight time with their helicopters.

Norway has continually accepted new delays, and still new assurances from the manufacturer that the helicopters are coming soon. But 11 years of delays show two things: The manufacturer's credibility is no longer what it was. And the Norwegian authorities have lacked a good exit strategy. Delays can not be rectified, but a decision on what will happen next can be on the stairs.

Sweden, who originally ordered the same helicopters, gave up already in spring 2011 (after "just" about five years with delays). It was after all to judge a good decision. The Swedes canceled the order and instead received new helicopters delivered from the competitor Sikorsky the following year, in 2012. Sikorsky spent 16 months delivering 15 factory new helicopters.

Total failure on all criteria


Norway has had a lot more patience. But now, the Armed Forces have has had enough. They consider the contract with the supplier as broken.

"We know that they are unable to deliver what the contract was due to," confirms the Navy information manager, Change Barane.

The background is obvious, but the Navy chooses to describe it in a somewhat technical way: The contract requires that the manufacturer not only deliver the helicopters themselves. It will also be delivered on different criteria such as the number of flight hours. In addition, maintenance work shall be measured against the number of flight hours to see how much maintenance is needed per flight time. Finally, the helicopters will deliver on operational requirements. For example, they should land on Coast Guard, have a certain range, equipment requirements, and so on.

The Armed Forces have previously stated that the operational requirements are not fulfilled - The Coast Guard Helicopters can not land on their vessels at the moment. It may be that the situation will be fine in three to five years, but it is uncertain. The frigate helicopters are not delivered and consequently do not meet any operational requirements.

The new now is that the contract is also broken in proportion to the number of flight hours that the helicopters can deliver.

Has set up a working group to consider

The Armed Forces have now set up a working group to assess different possibilities. Neither the Armed Forces nor the Ministry of Defense has answered in detail what the mandate the group has, but the following possibilities may be relevant:

• A cancellation of the contract
• Civil lawsuits against the manufacturer
• Demand for price reductions
• Requirements for changes to the helicopters


Partly translated from Norwegian

https://www.aldrimer.no/nh90-forsvaret- ... losninger/


The NH90 could have been a great helicopter and I think it's a shame that it's not working out, but I do hope at this poijnt that the Norwegian government come to their sences and get a different helicopter. They have been way to patient With the supplier.
• Ultimatum or absolute deadlines.
 
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SAS A340
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Re: Norway is consdiering cancelling troublesome order ...

Sat Oct 28, 2017 4:48 am

Sweden didn´t cancelled the order of NH90, the order of UH60M "Black Hawk" was partly done due to NH90,s difficulty to be delivered on time, but we have both systems in Sweden today. Sweden also wanted a model with "high cabin" which meant that it pulled out even longer at the time of delivery

Timeline (NH90)

2001 draw FMV contract with NHI for delivery of 18 helicopters
2011 delivers the FMV for the first four Hkp 14 Basic TTT to the armed forces. Used for training
2013-14 delivers FMV five Hkp 14 D for international operations and the building of naval operational capabilities
2015 delivers FMV two Hkp 14 (D) and the first Hkp 14 F with sonar and tactical radar
2016 will FMV to deliver three more Hkp 14 (F)
2017 delivered the last Hkp 14 F to Försvasmakten
2017-20 14 D 13 Hkp will gradually be upgraded to E-version

Timeline (UH60M)

In the summer of 2010, the Government decided that a completely new helicopter system would be acquired.
After the evaluation of various alternative systems decided the FMV in early 2011 to begin final negotiations with the U.S. authorities on the purchase of 15 UH-60 m Black Hawk from Sikorsky Aircraft Corporation. Sweden acquires UH-60 m Black Hawk via an intergovernmental agreement with the United States, through a so called FMS case (Foreign Military Sales)
In november 2011, the United States handed the first helicopters to the FMV at Sikorsky's factory in Stratford, United States
In december 2011, were the first two helicopters are on site at FMV on the ore in Linköping
January 2012 was the formal handover to the Swedish armed forces

The rapid delivery of the UH60M was because it was an originaly a order for the United States but that it ceded them to Sweden instead if my memory doesen´t fail me ;)
It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Norway is consdiering cancelling troublesome order ...

Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:13 am

Why is the NH90 such a failure in so many respects? Everyone who ordered it saw delays and cost increase. I think the Dutch still experiences some operational difficulties. Such a shame for such a beautiful machine.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Norway is consdiering cancelling troublesome order ...

Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:30 am

Dutchy wrote:
Why is the NH90 such a failure in so many respects? Everyone who ordered it saw delays and cost increase. I think the Dutch still experiences some operational difficulties. Such a shame for such a beautiful machine.

Easy: too many cooks in the kitchen spoil the broth. Notice that while there are supposed to be 2 major variants, each end user has their own sub-variant that invariably makes the specific version built for that user a unique product.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Norway is consdiering cancelling troublesome order ...

Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:31 am

They never learn..................
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Norway is consdiering cancelling troublesome order ...

Sat Oct 28, 2017 8:46 am

Dutchy wrote:
They never learn..................

I would also add 6 parallel production lines all producing the same aircraft for each major user... not exactly a best practice example for production efficiency...
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Norway is consdiering cancelling troublesome order ...

Sat Oct 28, 2017 10:47 am

Again, they never learn.......
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
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Re: Norway is consdiering cancelling troublesome order ...

Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:53 pm

ThePointblank wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
They never learn..................

I would also add 6 parallel production lines all producing the same aircraft for each major user... not exactly a best practice example for production efficiency...


Actually that is what Airbus is doing and, looking at the market share, one could call that best practice. Of course someone would need to replicate the internal competition as well.
But you do need to build one model in one or two variants.

Best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Norway is consdiering cancelling troublesome order ...

Sat Oct 28, 2017 2:58 pm

500 vs 13.000 production run, that makes a difference. This is done for political reasons, not for economic ones.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
VSMUT
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Re: Norway is consdiering cancelling troublesome order ...

Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:59 pm

Mortyman wrote:
The Norwegian Armed Forces considers the NH90 contract to be broken and "considering alternative solutions" after 11 years of delays in the NH90 helicopters. The Defense Staff now put down a working group to look at different alternatives. A cancellation is probably not excluded.


And yet, they just decided to order practically the same EH-101 variant Denmark has, a variant that is still causing major headaches over 10 years after they were delivered. Sounds more like incompetence on behalf of the Norwegian military if you ask me. It is also worth noting that the NH-90 hasn't had anywhere near as many problems in France and Italy among others.

ThePointblank wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
They never learn..................

I would also add 6 parallel production lines all producing the same aircraft for each major user... not exactly a best practice example for production efficiency...


That's pretty priceless coming from such an adamant JSF proponent as yourself. 3 assembly lines, and production spread out over as many states and countries as possible. Your criticism of the F-35 is noted.
 
bigjku
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Re: Norway is consdiering cancelling troublesome order ...

Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:29 pm

The F-35 program is producing huge numbers of the most advanced combat fighter ever built. The NH-90 is making the equivalent of a truck.

Having difficulty with a highly ambitious fighter aircraft is annoying but understandable, see Eurofighter, Rafale, SU-57 and pretty much every fighter in the last 30 years. Making a hash of building a battlefield truck is stupid and unnecessary. All the money spent buys you very little new capability in that case over just buying things that exist. It will come and go and UH-60’s will still be rolling out and being improved.
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Norway is consdiering cancelling troublesome order ...

Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:36 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
The Norwegian Armed Forces considers the NH90 contract to be broken and "considering alternative solutions" after 11 years of delays in the NH90 helicopters. The Defense Staff now put down a working group to look at different alternatives. A cancellation is probably not excluded.


And yet, they just decided to order practically the same EH-101 variant Denmark has, a variant that is still causing major headaches over 10 years after they were delivered. Sounds more like incompetence on behalf of the Norwegian military if you ask me. It is also worth noting that the NH-90 hasn't had anywhere near as many problems in France and Italy among others.

ThePointblank wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
They never learn..................

I would also add 6 parallel production lines all producing the same aircraft for each major user... not exactly a best practice example for production efficiency...


That's pretty priceless coming from such an adamant JSF proponent as yourself. 3 assembly lines, and production spread out over as many states and countries as possible. Your criticism of the F-35 is noted.



It is the producer that are not able to deliver the promised Product to the promised time. It is now 11 years over due time ! Hardly incompetence on the Norwegian part, but the producer. Furthermore, Norway is not the only country that has had problems With the NH90. Don't know about France and Italy. They may have different criteria and different conditions. Fact of the matter is that the producer has not met it's promises and have gotten ample time to solve the probelms. Again 11 years over due !
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Norway is consdiering cancelling troublesome order ...

Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:22 am

VSMUT wrote:

ThePointblank wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
They never learn..................

I would also add 6 parallel production lines all producing the same aircraft for each major user... not exactly a best practice example for production efficiency...


That's pretty priceless coming from such an adamant JSF proponent as yourself. 3 assembly lines, and production spread out over as many states and countries as possible. Your criticism of the F-35 is noted.

Yeah, 3 production lines that are producing the SAME exact aircraft for everyone, and you are knocking out thousands of them.

Compare that to 6 production lines producing multiple individual sub-variants for each customer. And you are only producing maybe a couple dozen of each sub-variant.

One makes a lot more sense than the other. Hint: it's not the one with 6 production lines.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Norway is consdiering cancelling troublesome order ...

Sun Oct 29, 2017 6:52 am

Mortyman wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
The Norwegian Armed Forces considers the NH90 contract to be broken and "considering alternative solutions" after 11 years of delays in the NH90 helicopters. The Defense Staff now put down a working group to look at different alternatives. A cancellation is probably not excluded.


And yet, they just decided to order practically the same EH-101 variant Denmark has, a variant that is still causing major headaches over 10 years after they were delivered. Sounds more like incompetence on behalf of the Norwegian military if you ask me. It is also worth noting that the NH-90 hasn't had anywhere near as many problems in France and Italy among others.

ThePointblank wrote:
I would also add 6 parallel production lines all producing the same aircraft for each major user... not exactly a best practice example for production efficiency...


That's pretty priceless coming from such an adamant JSF proponent as yourself. 3 assembly lines, and production spread out over as many states and countries as possible. Your criticism of the F-35 is noted.



It is the producer that are not able to deliver the promised Product to the promised time. It is now 11 years over due time ! Hardly incompetence on the Norwegian part, but the producer. Furthermore, Norway is not the only country that has had problems With the NH90. Don't know about France and Italy. They may have different criteria and different conditions. Fact of the matter is that the producer has not met it's promises and have gotten ample time to solve the probelms. Again 11 years over due !


Why is it that the Norwegian examples haven't been delivered? Hundreds are flying and even the line in Finland is closing or is already closed. Something doesn't add up here. If it was that pressing, they could just have made 6 more examples in Finland.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Norway is consdiering cancelling troublesome order ...

Sun Oct 29, 2017 7:46 am

Dutchy wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

And yet, they just decided to order practically the same EH-101 variant Denmark has, a variant that is still causing major headaches over 10 years after they were delivered. Sounds more like incompetence on behalf of the Norwegian military if you ask me. It is also worth noting that the NH-90 hasn't had anywhere near as many problems in France and Italy among others.



That's pretty priceless coming from such an adamant JSF proponent as yourself. 3 assembly lines, and production spread out over as many states and countries as possible. Your criticism of the F-35 is noted.



It is the producer that are not able to deliver the promised Product to the promised time. It is now 11 years over due time ! Hardly incompetence on the Norwegian part, but the producer. Furthermore, Norway is not the only country that has had problems With the NH90. Don't know about France and Italy. They may have different criteria and different conditions. Fact of the matter is that the producer has not met it's promises and have gotten ample time to solve the probelms. Again 11 years over due !


Why is it that the Norwegian examples haven't been delivered? Hundreds are flying and even the line in Finland is closing or is already closed. Something doesn't add up here. If it was that pressing, they could just have made 6 more examples in Finland.



I beleave the Finnish has a different version. The army version. There are different problems with operating the helicopters at sea I think one of the problems is corrosion wich also the Netherlands navy has had a problem With. I Guess. Norway has ordered the Frigate and Coastguard Versions.

Furthermore, it's not like the Finnish hasn't had their share of problems also:

From Wikipedia:

In January 2015, it was reported that Finnish NH90s had been experiencing considerable reliability issues, at one time in 2014 fleet availability dipped to 19%, and some spare parts had up to seven months waiting time. By early 2015, the combined NH90s fleet had accumulated a total of 7,000 flight hours, and had an availability rate of 40%. On 18 June 2015, delivery of the final Finnish NH90 took place. In November 2015, the availability rate was reported as having surpassed 50 percent.



Please read the original post again.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Norway is consdiering cancelling troublesome order ...

Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:09 am

Corrosion problems should have been solved, the Dutch have taken delivery again. There are other countries flying the Navy version as well. So again, what is so darn special about the Norwegian examples that they can't be produced and can't be delivered? We are missing something here and I don't know what. This can't be the whole story.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Mortyman
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Re: Norway is consdiering cancelling troublesome order ...

Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:01 am

Dutchy wrote:
Corrosion problems should have been solved, the Dutch have taken delivery again. There are other countries flying the Navy version as well. So again, what is so darn special about the Norwegian examples that they can't be produced and can't be delivered? We are missing something here and I don't know what. This can't be the whole story.




They apparently are not able to deliver the helicopters With the requirements that was agreed on:


The background is obvious, but the Navy chooses to describe it in a somewhat technical way: The contract requires that the manufacturer not only deliver the helicopters themselves. It will also be delivered on different criteria such as the number of flight hours. In addition, maintenance work shall be measured against the number of flight hours to see how much maintenance is needed per flight time. Finally, the helicopters will deliver on operational requirements. For example, they should land on Coast Guard, have a certain range, equipment requirements, and so on.

The Armed Forces have previously stated that the operational requirements are not fulfilled - The Coast Guard Helicopters can not land on their vessels at the moment. It may be that the situation will be fine in three to five years, but it is uncertain. The frigate helicopters are not delivered and consequently do not meet any operational requirements.



Image


Image


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Image
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Norway is consdiering cancelling troublesome order ...

Sun Oct 29, 2017 11:02 am

The frigate helicopters are not delivered and consequently do not meet any operational requirements.


That is the whole point, sure operational requirements are met if they are not delivered. OMG I can imagine that. But the question is, why are they not delivered? Because other nations took delivery of the navy variant. What is so special about the Norwegian examples. Sure I do recognize that NH industry has done a lot of things wrong in the past and they are late to deliver, but this seems to be an issue with the Norwegian examples alone. And that makes it interesting, especially looking at the Norwegian side of things. This can't be pure a NH industry thing, otherwise, other nations would experience the same issues.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Slug71
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Re: Norway is consdiering cancelling troublesome order ...

Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:32 pm

The troubles with the NH90 project is also just another shame. Such a good looking helo with a lot of potential. For the most part, it does seem to be getting over it's teething issues though.

Might be time to give it a little update. Would love to see it get a Fenestron.
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: Norway is consdiering cancelling troublesome order ...

Tue Nov 14, 2017 3:40 pm

It's weird seeing stories like this while at home the RNZAF seems to have had bugger all problems with their new NH-90s. I wonder what the differences are that have led to these problems.
 
Ozair
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Re: Norway is consdiering cancelling troublesome order ...

Tue Nov 14, 2017 8:40 pm

ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
It's weird seeing stories like this while at home the RNZAF seems to have had bugger all problems with their new NH-90s. I wonder what the differences are that have led to these problems.

The same reason I think that NZ didn't have problems with the SeaSprites against what Australia treid to do. NZ typically takes the baseline variant and does not try to modify or enhance the platform

In Australian Service the MRH-90 has been a joke. It was another program that brought in way too much risk and many of the problems stem from two things, a lack of proper program oversight and requirements definition by the Australian Government procurement agency and the inability of the MRH-90 to be able to operate in the threat environments required.

The ANAO conducted an audit of the program in 2014 and identified the following,

5. During the audit, the MRH90 Program was dealing with a range of challenges related to immaturity in the MRH90 system design and the support system. The challenges include:
resolving MRH90 cabin and role equipment design issues so that operational test and evaluation validates the MRH90 aircraft’s ability to satisfy Operational Capability Milestones set by Army and Navy;
the continuing need to conduct a wide range of verification and validation activities on problematic or deficient aircraft systems;
increasing the reliability, maintainability and flying rate of effort of the MRH90 aircraft;
embedding revised sustainment arrangements directed toward improving the value for money of these arrangements;
establishing a revised Australian industry activities plan, including performance metrics;
funding and managing the extended concurrent operation of the Army S‑70A‑9 Black Hawk and MRH90 aircraft fleets; and
managing a Navy capability gap following the retirement of the RAN Sea King aircraft in December 2011.


The full audit can be found here.
https://www.anao.gov.au/work/performance-audit/multi-role-helicopter-program

The irony of the procurement is that the Australian Department of Defence recommended the S-70M but the Government overruled and directed that the MRH-90 be selected instead.
 
ZaphodHarkonnen
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Re: Norway is consdiering cancelling troublesome order ...

Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:17 am

Sounds like a similar issue I find with IT projects in my line of work. When purchasing a platform you can either adapt it to your processes or adapt your processes to it. Generally groups want to adapt the platform but its usually easier to adapt your processes. As much as it irritates people.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Norway is consdiering cancelling troublesome order ...

Wed Nov 15, 2017 10:19 am

ZaphodHarkonnen wrote:
Sounds like a similar issue I find with IT projects in my line of work. When purchasing a platform you can either adapt it to your processes or adapt your processes to it. Generally groups want to adapt the platform but its usually easier to adapt your processes. As much as it irritates people.


:checkmark:

Although NH Industries didn't do everything quite right with this platform, but those things seem to be ironed out by now.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Slug71
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Re: Norway is consdiering cancelling troublesome order ...

Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:57 pm

Hopefully this and the A400M has been a big learning curve and wake up call for all parties involved.
You would think that after 10 years in production and with technology and other improvements, that would allow most of the individual requests to become standard equipment by now. Other than structural changes that is, like the higher ceiling for one of the users. You'd think all users would want the higher ceiling though.

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