edu2703
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Incident envolving Embraer KC-390 during a test flight

Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:47 am

On October 12, during a certification program flight, the military transport aircraft KC-390 (PT-ZNF) had an incident not yet fully clarified, when the military aircraft rapidly descended from about 20,000 feet to just over 3,000 feet in less than a minute.

According to information provided by a source close to Embraer, and reported by 'Caixa-Preta Blog', by aviation journalist Solange Galante, the aircraft was flying at about 20,000 feet when it fell and went down vertically in about a minute, leveling off just over 3,000 feet on a terrain with approximately two thousand feet of altitude and the altimeters on board locked in the maximum. The source said that it was not possible to evaluate the maximum speed reached by the aircraft during that drop, that surpassed −4 G, enough to twist its structure, causing severe damage and making the aircraft unusable for new flights. The source also said some pieces broke from aircraft during the descent.

Image

Fortunately no one was injured, and the aircraft was able to land safely on Embraer Gavião Peixoto airport. The aircraft will undergo evaluations to determine what caused the sudden drop and also the damage caused to aircraft.

According to data recorded on FlightRadar24, the incident with KC-390 occurred within 56 minutes of flight, when a sudden change in altitude and heading can be observed and the subsequent return to Gavião Peixoto after the pilots declare emergency.

Image

Embraer has released an official statement that can be read below:

A prototype of the KC-390 multi-mission transport aircraft performed on Thursday morning, October 12, in-flight tests for stall situations, which result in aircraft altitude loss due to the decrease in lift force as part of the certification testing campaign.

Due to the maneuvers performed and following established protocols, the crew requested an early return to the base, normally landing at the company's aerodrome in Gavião Peixoto (SP) where the test campaign is carried out.

The KC-390 is scheduled to enter service in 2018, according to the schedule of the program. Currently, two KC-390 prototypes total more than 1,300 flight hours.


Source (In Portuguese): http://www.cavok.com.br/blog/incidente- ... tificacao/
 
RJMAZ
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Re: Incident envolving Embraer KC-390 during a test flight

Thu Oct 19, 2017 3:41 am

Looks normal to me. They were intentionally stalling the aircraft at high altitude. On the last stall they probably just exceeded a test parameter. So they intentionally descended to land.

They did not over speed during descent. It stayed below 200 knots the whole time.
 
WIederling
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Re: Incident envolving Embraer KC-390 during a test flight

Thu Oct 19, 2017 1:53 pm

The source said that it was not possible to evaluate the maximum speed reached by the aircraft during that drop, that surpassed −4 G,

Hmm.

Acceleration is not speed. It is the first derivation of speed.
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ssteve
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Re: Incident envolving Embraer KC-390 during a test flight

Thu Oct 19, 2017 2:17 pm

I wonder if the plot is groundspeed. Takes a big dip during the dive because they were falling straight down.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Incident envolving Embraer KC-390 during a test flight

Fri Oct 20, 2017 4:00 pm

So the aircraft dropped from 20k feet (6096m) to 3k feet (914m) in 60 seconds. That's 5km, which means a vertical speed of 300km/h. Then you need to add the horizontal speed which is unknown because we don't know how far across the ground it flew in the same time.

According to the chart in the first post, they did stall the aircraft on purpose The speed dropped to just above 100 knots before it fell towards the ground and went back to 200 knots and recovered. The speeds don't add up when you take into account the 300km/h vertical dive, unless the aircraft just fell out of the sky while maintaining a normal attitude, gained sufficient lift again and recovered just in time.
 
pat78370
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Re: Incident envolving Embraer KC-390 during a test flight

Wed Oct 25, 2017 9:45 pm

MSN 01 grounded since Oct 12th, date of occurrence....no more flight tests   :wave: 
Uncontrolled descent during STAL tests.
VNE and Y accel have been exceeded maximum allowed.
Struct maybe damaged/bent/twisted.

Be careful of the "Flightradar" records : refresh time is quite long.
 
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zeke
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Re: Incident envolving Embraer KC-390 during a test flight

Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:17 am

Ads data should be ground speed not airspeed
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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zeke
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Re: Incident envolving Embraer KC-390 during a test flight

Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:26 am

JetBuddy wrote:
So the aircraft dropped from 20k feet (6096m) to 3k feet (914m) in 60 seconds. That's 5km, which means a vertical speed of 300km/h. Then you need to add the horizontal speed which is unknown because we don't know how far across the ground it flew in the same time.


Should be able to get the distance from the raw ads data on FR24.

I wonder if this is a deep stall of the tail ?
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
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litz
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Re: Incident envolving Embraer KC-390 during a test flight

Tue Oct 31, 2017 7:07 pm

Deep stalls of T-tails are certainly not unheard of
 
Chaostheory
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Re: Incident envolving Embraer KC-390 during a test flight

Thu Nov 02, 2017 9:41 am

zeke wrote:
JetBuddy wrote:
So the aircraft dropped from 20k feet (6096m) to 3k feet (914m) in 60 seconds. That's 5km, which means a vertical speed of 300km/h. Then you need to add the horizontal speed which is unknown because we don't know how far across the ground it flew in the same time.


Should be able to get the distance from the raw ads data on FR24.

I wonder if this is a deep stall of the tail ?


Looks like it.

Not that it was ever an issue with the A400m during testing, but I recall reading or hearing of a rocket recovery system fitted to the tail as a backup. I wonder if the KC390 has a similar setup.
 
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Grizzly410
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Re: Incident envolving Embraer KC-390 during a test flight

Thu Nov 02, 2017 10:38 pm

Chaostheory wrote:
Not that it was ever an issue with the A400m during testing, but I recall reading or hearing of a rocket recovery system fitted to the tail as a backup. I wonder if the KC390 has a similar setup.

You're right about this rocket system on A400M, but as far as I remenber it was only fitted during the 3-5 first flights.
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
luzardofilho
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Re: Incident envolving Embraer KC-390 during a test flight

Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:35 am

What I have on KC-390 !!!!

KC-390 flight was really ugly ....
It was stall test with artificial ice. The test racks and batteries went out of order and even some instruments went off.
Airplane recovered on the back in an inverted looping half. He just left the situation because the pilots reversed the commands ... I can not even imagine the situation. It gave 4 g negative and the pilots had effusion in the eyes ....
Embraer airplane stall test flight. The guys were born again. On 12/10 was heard by many pilots, who were in the region, the Mayday request of the Embraer KC-390, almost fell on this test flight ... there was loss of control in flight, cause a tail stall and a fall of more than 16 thousand feet in 3 minutes. only 1 Cmte was awake, all other crew members were not, they all had bleeding in eyes and ears, injuries due to blood pressure. Airplane had structural damages beyond repair. Any other plane would probably have break in pieces.
 
luzardofilho
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Re: Incident envolving Embraer KC-390 during a test flight

Sat Nov 04, 2017 7:23 am

luzardofilho wrote:
What I have on KC-390 !!!!

KC-390 flight was really ugly ....
It was stall test with artificial ice. The test racks and batteries went out of order and even some instruments went off.
Airplane recovered on the back in an inverted looping half. He just left the situation because the pilots reversed the commands ... I can not even imagine the situation. It gave 4 g negative and the pilots had effusion in the eyes ....
Embraer airplane stall test flight. The guys were born again. On 12/10 was heard by many pilots, who were in the region, the Mayday request of the Embraer KC-390, almost fell on this test flight ... there was loss of control in flight, cause a tail stall and a fall of more than 16 thousand feet in 3 minutes. only 1 Cmte was awake, all other crew members were not, they all had bleeding in eyes and ears, injuries due to blood pressure. Airplane had structural damages beyond repair. Any other plane would probably have break in pieces.



This info was from a whatsapp msg received, translated with google translate. Not sure if it was what's really happened there. Who knows!!!
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Incident envolving Embraer KC-390 during a test flight

Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:07 am

pat78370 wrote:
MSN 01 grounded since Oct 12th, date of occurrence....no more flight tests   :wave: 
Uncontrolled descent during STAL tests.
VNE and Y accel have been exceeded maximum allowed.
Struct maybe damaged/bent/twisted.


Quite an "incident".

Would love to learn more about what happened onboard. Does this mean the aircraft has some design fault or that there's a limit they were not aware of? Or is this simply a mistake in the test flight?
 
WIederling
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Re: Incident envolving Embraer KC-390 during a test flight

Sat Nov 04, 2017 9:36 am

AirlineCritic wrote:
Or is this simply a mistake in the test flight?


Well, flight testing is about expanding the flight envelope determining its (hard) limits
to avoid / prohibit touching in later use.
They seem to have found a rather unpleasant limit.

No remedies to get the plane in a planned fashion out of a resultant stall or it did not work as planned.

( re translation : would the term used "sleeping" really be better translated as "unconscious" ?
In context a better fit imho )
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Aesma
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Re: Incident envolving Embraer KC-390 during a test flight

Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:56 am

Damn, I'd like to see a video of that !
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Incident envolving Embraer KC-390 during a test flight

Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:57 am

WIederling wrote:
AirlineCritic wrote:
Or is this simply a mistake in the test flight?


Well, flight testing is about expanding the flight envelope determining its (hard) limits
to avoid / prohibit touching in later use.
They seem to have found a rather unpleasant limit.

No remedies to get the plane in a planned fashion out of a resultant stall or it did not work as planned.

( re translation : would the term used "sleeping" really be better translated as "unconscious" ?
In context a better fit imho )

The question is, did they hit a known flight envelope limit with the design by accident, or did the aircraft behave unexpectedly before a supposed flight envelope limit was reached? The first option would just be a testing mishap. The other is a design flaw.
 
WIederling
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Re: Incident envolving Embraer KC-390 during a test flight

Mon Nov 06, 2017 12:58 pm

ThePointblank wrote:
The other is a design flaw.


"Flaw or not"

Difficult to say at the moment afaics.
Is it comparable to the A330 lost in flight testing?
( one engine out start with workload overwhelmed test crew. )
Murphy is an optimist
 
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keesje
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Re: Incident envolving Embraer KC-390 during a test flight

Mon Nov 06, 2017 1:08 pm

litz wrote:
Deep stalls of T-tails are certainly not unheard of


:checkmark: classic.

Together with Pilot Induced Oscillation and Aeroelastic Flutter it's up in the list of failure modes never completely covered, regardless how advanced aircraft control got. Parachutes & rockets were installed in the past as fall backs to regain control.

Image
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ssteve
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Re: Incident envolving Embraer KC-390 during a test flight

Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:30 pm

luzardofilho wrote:
Airplane recovered on the back in an inverted looping half.


Is recovery from a deep stall more likely inverted? Do you get more control authority? (Was Denzel Washington flying?)
 
WIederling
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Re: Incident envolving Embraer KC-390 during a test flight

Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:50 pm

ssteve wrote:
luzardofilho wrote:
Airplane recovered on the back in an inverted looping half.


Is recovery from a deep stall more likely inverted? Do you get more control authority? (Was Denzel Washington flying?)


My guess would be yes.

IMU Deep stall for a T-Tail happens because the stalled wing shadows the horizontal tailplane and rudder making it ineffective.
( all horizontal aero surfaces are in a stable stalled state. )
If you turn the arrangement into an inverted T-Tail that second problem goes away.

see image on right: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stall_%28 ... Deep_stall
Murphy is an optimist
 
edu2703
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Re: Incident envolving Embraer KC-390 during a test flight

Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:48 pm

According to AeroMagazine, Embraer found the cause of the accident: http://aeromagazine.uol.com.br/artigo/c ... z4xqJMQjtz

The aircraft was doing stall test with artificial ice on the wings. When the pilot pitched the nose up, one of the heavy flight test equipament broke loose and shifted to the rear of the aircraft, affecting the CG and causing the incident.


Information about what happened during the incident was provided by Poder Aéreo: http://www.aereo.jor.br/2017/10/21/inci ... aconteceu/

Image

The aircraft was in level flight (A) and at a certain point, the pilot reduced the power of the engines at the same time as it pitched the nose up (B) and raised the AoA (angle of attack).

The AoA rose to a point where the aircraft stalled (lost lift) (C). At this point, the nose of KC-390 was practically vertical (D) and the aircraft began to fall (due to loss of lift).

The aircraft turned upside down (E), although it is not known whether intentionally or not. The fall continued and at this point, the G forces must have reached the value of -4G.

To get out of such a situation and at low altitude, the crew possibly performed (F) a half-tonneau (180° turn around the longitudinal axis), recovering the aircraft (G) and leveling it at 1,000 feet (300 meters) above ground.


Officially, Embraer denies any incident. Some sources report that PT-ZNF has sustained severe damage and probably will never fly again. This aircraft was suposed to be delivered to Brazilian Air Force after certification.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Incident envolving Embraer KC-390 during a test flight

Wed Nov 08, 2017 7:52 pm

Holy Heck!!!
Well THAT's a high potential "brown event" if I ever saw one! Congrats to the crew for recovering it successfully.

Tugg
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ssteve
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Re: Incident envolving Embraer KC-390 during a test flight

Wed Nov 08, 2017 10:38 pm

How do you get -4G from that flight profile? Maybe when it begins to return to controlled flight from falling inverted?
 
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EMBSPBR
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Re: Incident envolving Embraer KC-390 during a test flight

Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:51 am

edu2703 wrote:
Officially, Embraer denies any incident. Some sources report that PT-ZNF has sustained severe damage and probably will never fly again.


Not true.

Source: https://mobile-reuters-com.cdn.ampproje ... SKBN1D833R

Excerpt:
"The KC-390 prototype suffered no damage to its "primary aircraft structure," but some of its access hatches and aerodynamic fairings must be repaired before the aircraft can resume flights, Embraer said in a statement."
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: Incident envolving Embraer KC-390 during a test flight

Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:45 am

The crew was extremely lucky, they were almost out of altitude.
What we leave behind is not as important as how we've lived.
 
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Aesma
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Re: Incident envolving Embraer KC-390 during a test flight

Thu Nov 09, 2017 1:19 pm

We'll see if it ever enters service, the Air Force might not want it. But be glad that the incident happened and proved recoverable.

Pretty big failure of someone if something really broke loose causing the incident.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Incident envolving Embraer KC-390 during a test flight

Thu Nov 09, 2017 3:01 pm

Wow. Wondering if the people inside got hurt and/or were able to do anything wrt. the loose equipment.
 
luzardofilho
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Re: Incident envolving Embraer KC-390 during a test flight

Fri Nov 10, 2017 8:21 am

KC-390 programme on track for 2018 deliveries,

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... es-442990/
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: Incident envolving Embraer KC-390 during a test flight

Sun Nov 12, 2017 6:31 pm

Great to hear that it wasn't a design fault of any kind. The aircraft seems rather solid to have survived that fall and recovery. And great job by the crew for having gotten out of that situation.
 
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EMBSPBR
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Re: Incident envolving Embraer KC-390 during a test flight

Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:37 pm

Source: https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... -a-443141/

DUBAI: Embraer KC-390 set to resume flight testing after minor repairs
13 November, 2017, by Ellis Taylor - Dubai

"The Embraer KC-390 protoype involved in a stall speed incident on 12 October has not been significantly damaged and is set to return to flight testing following minor repairs."

And a very interesting article about the KC-390:

Souce:https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/flight-test-embraers-kc-390-an-airlift-jet-setter-442825/

FLIGHT TEST: Embraer's KC-390 an airlift jet-setter
13 November, 2017, by Mike Gerzanics

Lockheed Martin has dominated the tactical transport mission in Western air forces virtually since the C-130's first flight in 1954, with more than 2,500 Hercules delivered to multiple customers, including Brazil.
 
WIederling
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Re: Incident envolving Embraer KC-390 during a test flight

Mon Nov 13, 2017 4:53 pm

EMBSPBR wrote:
Souce:https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/flight-test-embraers-kc-390-an-airlift-jet-setter-442825/


That is quite the juicy article :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
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EMBSPBR
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Re: Incident envolving Embraer KC-390 during a test flight

Mon Nov 13, 2017 8:28 pm

WIederling wrote:
EMBSPBR wrote:
Souce:https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/flight-test-embraers-kc-390-an-airlift-jet-setter-442825/


That is quite the juicy article :-)


True ... :yes:
 
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EMBSPBR
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Re: Incident envolving Embraer KC-390 during a test flight

Mon Nov 13, 2017 9:18 pm

Happy to know that today's test flights with the prototype in the. 2 reset after 30 days on the ground ...

https://www.flightradar24.com/P39/f84d454
 
SJPBR
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Re: Incident envolving Embraer KC-390 during a test flight

Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:02 am

according to some news in brazil (I will look for it) the stall was due some movement in test equipament in cargo bay shifitinh the center of gravity in the stall test. Something like the 747F in Kabul... But the pilots have altitude and speed to recover.
 
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Tugger
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Re: Incident envolving Embraer KC-390 during a test flight

Tue Nov 14, 2017 12:20 am

EMBSPBR wrote:
WIederling wrote:
EMBSPBR wrote:
Souce:https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/flight-test-embraers-kc-390-an-airlift-jet-setter-442825/


That is quite the juicy article :-)


True ... :yes:

I.... don't think we are reading the same thing exactly.... :crackup:
About as juicy as shoe leather.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
WIederling
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Re: Incident envolving Embraer KC-390 during a test flight

Tue Nov 14, 2017 11:46 am

Tugger wrote:
EMBSPBR wrote:
WIederling wrote:

That is quite the juicy article :-)


True ... :yes:

I.... don't think we are reading the same thing exactly.... :crackup:
About as juicy as shoe leather.

Tugg

Hmm.
It is long. It is full of dense information.
It lacks any kind of PR self gloss from the manufacturer.

compare to some prissy diatribe from one Randy Boeing.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Tugger
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Re: Incident envolving Embraer KC-390 during a test flight

Tue Nov 14, 2017 9:12 pm

WIederling wrote:
Tugger wrote:
EMBSPBR wrote:

True ... :yes:

I.... don't think we are reading the same thing exactly.... :crackup:
About as juicy as shoe leather.

Tugg

Hmm.
It is long. It is full of dense information.
It lacks any kind of PR self gloss from the manufacturer.

compare to some prissy diatribe from one Randy Boeing.

Ahh Ha!
I know what happened, the second link in EMBSPBR's post #31 does not show as a hyperlink, it looked like normal text so I missed it and only saw the first link in his post (which is only eight sentences). :bigthumbsup:

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
WIederling
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Re: Incident envolving Embraer KC-390 during a test flight

Wed Nov 15, 2017 9:06 am

Tugger wrote:
EMBSPBR's post #31 does not show as a hyperlink, it looked like normal text so I missed it and only saw the first link in his post (which is only eight sentences). :bigthumbsup:

A bit much Underscoring strewn in too. Just like everywhere else: you need to read the fine print! :-)
Murphy is an optimist
 
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EMBSPBR
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Re: Incident envolving Embraer KC-390 during a test flight

Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:14 pm

The prototype no.2 PT-ZNF has returned to the test flights since November 12th.
Today it began his flight to USAF-based Eglin for ice testing.

Here is a video of Embraer released this week demonstrating the launch of parachutists:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Em3EazE ... e=youtu.be

The program continues in full steam ahead of the certification and delivery of the first units to the Brazilian Air Force FAB in the second half of 2018.
 
Nean1
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Re: Incident envolving Embraer KC-390 during a test flight

Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:19 pm

The PT-ZNF aircraft looks like it's still under repair. The second aircraft (PT-ZNJ) follows today Eglin - Florida, where it will perform low temperature tests.

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