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TWA772LR
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USAF AMC Aircraft Pilot Abilities Question

Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:23 am

We've all seen the videos of the Blue Angels 'Fat Albert' doing the short field take off with the JATO assist and the cockpit video of the crew members holding on for dear life as their feet fly off the floor.

My question is, do normal AMC pilots in in the ANG, reserve, and active duty (C17, C5, C130 et al) train to (or close to) the same capabilities as their special forces /demo team counterparts? C130 crews of the USMC and USCG can be added to this too. What I mean is do they train to handle the really steep takeoff/landings, handlings and other extreme flight characteristics (within the limits of the aircraft of course) throughout the entire USAF including reserve and ANG? It would seem wise that they do to keep a high level of skill among all crews.

Would a Texas ANG C130 crew train to the same ability of an active duty crew of a C130, or even spec ops counterpart? Or a reserve C17 crew learning how to do a 20,000 fpm descent? Would all USMC, USCG, and USAF C130 crews have the same skill set (aside from really nitty gritty, mission specific things like USMC air-to-air refueling or USCG maritime SAR)?

This is probably a stupid question, but a conversation I had with my brother about aircraft in the Texas ANG got me thinking about it. I did want to join the Navy really bad to be a pilot but after learning of the different lifestyles of active, reserve and (A)NG, I want to go the reserve/NG route to serve after learning Naval aviators can't go reserve without 8 years of active duty.

Thanks in advance for your replies!
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mmo
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Re: USAF AMC Aircraft Pilot Abilities Question

Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:37 am

Unless things have change in the past few years, the ANG/AFRES and Active Duty pilots all train to the same standard and have the same quarterly training requirements. There is no difference in the qualifications between any of the pilots at all.
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zanl188
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Re: USAF AMC Aircraft Pilot Abilities Question

Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:24 am

I'd like to see that video if you could post a link please.

As to your question it depends on the units mission. The Blues have a requirement for the rocket assisted take off so they train for it. I'm not aware of any other C-130 unit with a RATO requirement so they don't train to that level. Certainly none of the 130 units I've been involved with did RATOs.

I'm not certain J model 130s even have a RATO capability....
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NLCFFX
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Re: USAF AMC Aircraft Pilot Abilities Question

Thu Aug 31, 2017 12:58 pm

zanl188 wrote:
I'd like to see that video if you could post a link please.

As to your question it depends on the units mission. The Blues have a requirement for the rocket assisted take off so they train for it. I'm not aware of any other C-130 unit with a RATO requirement so they don't train to that level. Certainly none of the 130 units I've been involved with did RATOs.

I'm not certain J model 130s even have a RATO capability....



If I recall correctly, the JATO/RATO "bottles" were all used up several years ago and none are available for the Blues or anyone else.
 
Andre3K
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Re: USAF AMC Aircraft Pilot Abilities Question

Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:15 pm

Considering the takeoffs and landings they do in hot AOR's overseas, I'm pretty sure they all do the same training. When I was in the USAF I deployed to Qatar 2 times, but the only aircraft besides the combat ones that did steep takeoff's were commercial cargo aircraft. In a place like Iraq they do spiraling descent's and low transition takeoff's.
 
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TWA772LR
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Re: USAF AMC Aircraft Pilot Abilities Question

Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:37 pm

zanl188 wrote:
I'd like to see that video if you could post a link please.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32eRW43LJf8
"It's not getting to the land of the nonrev that's the problem, it's getting back." ~~Captain Hector Barbossa
The thoughts and opinions shared under this username are mine and don't necessarily reflect those of my employer.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: USAF AMC Aircraft Pilot Abilities Question

Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:40 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
zanl188 wrote:
I'd like to see that video if you could post a link please.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32eRW43LJf8


haha, nice.
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Max Q
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Re: USAF AMC Aircraft Pilot Abilities Question

Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:48 am

Dont the 'Ski bird' C130 units still use RATO for operations in the Arctic and Antarctic ?
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WIederling
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Re: USAF AMC Aircraft Pilot Abilities Question

Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:35 am

Andre3K wrote:
Considering the takeoffs and landings they do in hot AOR's overseas, I'm pretty sure they all do the same training. When I was in the USAF I deployed to Qatar 2 times, but the only aircraft besides the combat ones that did steep takeoff's were commercial cargo aircraft. In a place like Iraq they do spiraling descent's and low transition takeoff's.


How many seconds of thrust do those JATO/RATO bottles provide? <10s?

Their use case is "X"STOL and not getting out of reach of the local unfriendlies :-)

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jarheadk5
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Re: USAF AMC Aircraft Pilot Abilities Question

Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:04 pm

Former USAF Reserve KC-10 crewmember (boom operator) AND former USMC Active duty and Reserve CH-53E aerial observer/aerial gunner here.

All KC-10 and CH-53E crewmembers have the same training, proficiency, and currency requirements, whether they're Active Duty or Reserve.
From online and in-person conversations with crewmembers from many other airframes and branches of service, it's the same all over. There is currently no different standard of training, currency, or proficiency within the US Armed Forces. There may have been at one time, but definitely not since 1998, when I started flying as a military crewmember.
-Boom stowed, leaving position.
 
jarheadk5
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Re: USAF AMC Aircraft Pilot Abilities Question

Fri Sep 01, 2017 7:14 pm

Double-tap; disregard.
-Boom stowed, leaving position.
 
Buckeyetech
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Re: USAF AMC Aircraft Pilot Abilities Question

Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:32 pm

C-17 crews from strictly Reserve/ANG units won't be airdrop qualified.
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zanl188
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Re: USAF AMC Aircraft Pilot Abilities Question

Sat Sep 02, 2017 2:02 pm

jarheadk5 wrote:
Former USAF Reserve KC-10 crewmember (boom operator) AND former USMC Active duty and Reserve CH-53E aerial observer/aerial gunner here.

All KC-10 and CH-53E crewmembers have the same training, proficiency, and currency requirements, whether they're Active Duty or Reserve.
From online and in-person conversations with crewmembers from many other airframes and branches of service, it's the same all over. There is currently no different standard of training, currency, or proficiency within the US Armed Forces. There may have been at one time, but definitely not since 1998, when I started flying as a military crewmember.


Given the number of different variants airframes like the C-130, H-60, and H-1 have I find this statement difficult to believe.

USAF wouldn't even allow a slick C-130 crew go do air refueling in a MC-130!
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mmo
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Re: USAF AMC Aircraft Pilot Abilities Question

Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:11 pm

zanl188 wrote:

Given the number of different variants airframes like the C-130, H-60, and H-1 have I find this statement difficult to believe.

USAF wouldn't even allow a slick C-130 crew go do air refueling in a MC-130!


That is true, but your example is somewhat misleading. If I am an Aircraft Commander on an MC-130, I have a certain number of refuelings (day and night) which must be completed every quarter. During my tactical check, I am evaluated on A/R. However, if I am an A/C on a slick I don't have a refueling requirement. I am not even qualified for A/R. So, in this case of course they would not have the same requirements because the missions are different and, in essence, they are two different aircraft. The same would hold true for ANG and AFRES pilots.
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zanl188
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Re: USAF AMC Aircraft Pilot Abilities Question

Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:12 pm

TWA772LR wrote:
zanl188 wrote:
I'd like to see that video if you could post a link please.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32eRW43LJf8


Thanks for posting. Not what I expected though - just a negative G maneuver. Fun all the same...

Interesting that the Blues allow the crew to wear Corafam shoes. Not something you want to wear in a fire or accident type situation. I believe the Navy has banned Corafam's aboard ship.
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zanl188
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Re: USAF AMC Aircraft Pilot Abilities Question

Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:52 pm

mmo wrote:

That is true, but your example is somewhat misleading. If I am an Aircraft Commander on an MC-130, I have a certain number of refuelings (day and night) which must be completed every quarter. During my tactical check, I am evaluated on A/R. However, if I am an A/C on a slick I don't have a refueling requirement. I am not even qualified for A/R. So, in this case of course they would not have the same requirements because the missions are different and, in essence, they are two different aircraft. The same would hold true for ANG and AFRES pilots.


Maybe what folks are getting at here is the initial qualifications are the same. I believe for example that all the US services, and some non US, send their people to the USAF school at Little Rock to learn to fly C-130s. Everybody completes the school at Little Rock at the same standard, but then goes elsewhere to learn to fly their variant and mission.
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mmo
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Re: USAF AMC Aircraft Pilot Abilities Question

Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:55 pm

But that does not make you mission ready, just P qualed. A million years ago, when I was on active duty, you got fully qualified at the school house. You were mission capable then, but the other admin stuff was done at your base and then when complete you would be mission ready.
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jarheadk5
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Re: USAF AMC Aircraft Pilot Abilities Question

Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:56 pm

Buckeyetech wrote:
C-17 crews from strictly Reserve/ANG units won't be airdrop qualified.

A significant number of AD C-17 crews are airland-only, yet they're still considered current & qualified.
The point remains: There's not a separate training, proficiency, and currency standard for USAF aircrew members based solely on whether they're AD, Reserve, or Guard.

-----------------------------

zanl188 wrote:
Given the number of different variants airframes like the C-130, H-60, and H-1 have I find this statement difficult to believe.

USAF wouldn't even allow a slick C-130 crew go do air refueling in a MC-130!

A USAF slick C-130x crew isn't legal to fly ANY mission in a MC-130x without a formal conversion training syllabus consisting of classroom time, sims, and multiple training flights, a checkride, and a Form 8 entry. While the KC-10 was getting the CNS/ATM mod and we had a mixed fleet of modded and non-modded aircraft, EVERY crewmember had to have formal differences training and an instructor-supervised certification flight to legally fly the CNS/ATM aircraft. Another example - when I was a current & qualified KC-10 boom operator, I could not go fly on a KC-135 and refuel receivers. The mission is the same, but the airframe is significantly different. I knew multiple boom operators who went from one tanker to the other, and the conversion training process was a few months long when everything went perfectly (which never happens).

Other than specific flight test communities (and U-2 & B-2 pilots), USAF crewmembers are only allowed to be current & qualified (also known as "Mission Ready", or MR) on one aircraft at a time. I know it was like that when I was in the Corps (i.e. a UH-1N pilot couldn't legally fly an AH-1W), and I'm fairly certain it's like that in the other services as well.

-------------------

zanl188 wrote:
Interesting that the Blues allow the crew to wear Corafam shoes. Not something you want to wear in a fire or accident type situation. I believe the Navy has banned Corafam's aboard ship.

Those are spit-shined LOX boots; same as what Marine One crewchiefs wear. Not sure what the -18 pilots wear, but as far back as 2000 when I got my Fat Albert flight deck ride, the FA crew wore spit-shined LOX boots.
A lot of things have changed since the last time I was aboard ship, but as of 2003 corframs weren't banned for occasional wear with dress uniforms. Everyday wear was banned even back then, though.
-Boom stowed, leaving position.

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