estorilm
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North Korea radial biplanes could drop nukes without being detected..

Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:25 pm

I just had to share this, as perhaps one of the most ridiculously misguided and unprofessional / inaccurate articles I've ever read regarding military topics.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2017/08/29/north-koreas-antique-airplane-could-be-its-most-dangerous-weapon-yet.html
The dated aircraft raisesthe concern that they could be used to transport a nuclear bomb to be dropped quite easily without triggering any radar at any specific target.


It's like they're letting random facebook / bloggers write articles on mainstream news sites now.

Last time I checked, the payload requirements for primitive nukes didn't exactly match up to 1940's biplane specs.

...and implying some kind of stealth advantages for such an aircraft?! I mean what's the range going to be? It's just so ridiculous I can't really comprehend it. In any event, I felt the need to share and vent, so others could join in on my misery.
 
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Francoflier
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Re: North Korea radial biplanes could drop nukes without being detected..

Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:47 pm

Interesting concept...
Not only would it be a suicide mission, but I doubt the plane would make it very far into South Korea even if it flew under the radar. The DMZ is the most surveilled area in the World.
Granted, it doesn't have to go very far across it.
And does NK have a warhead that would fit inside an AN-2?

But yeah... Basic Fox News scaremongering.
I'll do my own airline. With Blackjack. And hookers. In fact, forget the airline.
 
estorilm
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Re: North Korea radial biplanes could drop nukes without being detected..

Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:54 pm

Francoflier wrote:
And does NK have a warhead that would fit inside an AN-2?
.

Exactly my point. It's a taildragger - not like you can suspend something under the belly.

By the time they miniaturized something to the point it could be pushed out of a utility biplane, I'm fairly certain it would also fit on the top of one of the ICBMs they've been spending every cent their country has on.
 
zanl188
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Re: North Korea radial biplanes could drop nukes without being detected..

Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:32 pm

USFK & the other allies in South Korea have been anticipating NK special forces being airdropped from AN-2s for some time. Defending against this is part of what the recurring exercises (The ones NK doesn't like) train for. The AN-2 is a credible threat.

As far as the nuke is concerned. It doesn't have to work to be effective, just make a mess. Radio-logically dirty up some airfields in the south, force use of MOPP gear, and combat effectiveness of those airfields goes way down.

But yeah the articles was poorly researched. NK had AN-2 long before 2015.
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WIederling
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Re: North Korea radial biplanes could drop nukes without being detected..

Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:17 pm

Francoflier wrote:
Interesting concept...
Not only would it be a suicide mission, but I doubt the plane would make it very far into South Korea even if it flew under the radar. The DMZ is the most surveilled area in the World.
Granted, it doesn't have to go very far across it.
And does NK have a warhead that would fit inside an AN-2?

But yeah... Basic Fox News scaremongering.


SCNR:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mathias_Rust
Murphy is an optimist
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: North Korea radial biplanes could drop nukes without being detected..

Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:35 am

Well, if the warhead is powerful enough, and with An-2 having a maximum speed of 250 km/h, and with all AA defenses that could be brought to bear by South Korea and allies -- probably the mission to deliver a nuclear payload would be designed as a one-way ticket from day one. (One way or another, getting to the target in a plane like this is already a challenge; getting out of the blast radius is doubtful.)
In this case, all the issues like "lack of provisions for bomb drop" and "taildragger" disappear, and all you have to do is design a device that fits into An-2 fuselage, and weighs under two tons. The airplane becomes a missile; crew could be conditioned for a suicide mission, etc.
No idea if that's what is on NK planner's minds, but it's an option. Especially if South Korean and allied forces mainly see An-2 as an airdrop platform, not a disposable WMD delivery platform.
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VSMUT
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Re: North Korea radial biplanes could drop nukes without being detected..

Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:15 am

Yeah, not really. I asked a Lithuanian AF AN-2 crew about the stealth claim some years ago. They said absolutely not, the thing has a massive radial engine up front, and the huge metal fuselage is the size of a Phantom. It also features metal spars in the wings. On top of that, they were unable to mask their arrival anywhere, because you can hear it long before it gets into view range.

A far more credible threat would be if they could fit a nuke into one of their MD-500s, and then disguise it to look like an American MH-6 or South Korean Defender. Or sail it into Seoul or Tokyo in a midget-submarine, or smuggle it in via a 3rd part country and simply drive it into the middle of Seoul or Tokyo in a truck or van.

WIederling wrote:


But Mathias Rust did appear on Soviet radars most of the way. It was the organization that failed to do anything about it, not the equipment. Or rather, decided not to do anything about an innocent civilian plane.
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: North Korea radial biplanes could drop nukes without being detected..

Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:59 am

VSMUT wrote:
A far more credible threat would be if they could fit a nuke into one of their MD-500s, and then disguise it to look like an American MH-6 or South Korean Defender. Or sail it into Seoul or Tokyo in a midget-submarine, or smuggle it in via a 3rd part country and simply drive it into the middle of Seoul or Tokyo in a truck or van.


Set up an Import-Export company (hehe, Mr. Bond) and use it as a front to receive shipping containers. Many of them aren't checked when they cross frontiers.


David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
VSMUT
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Re: North Korea radial biplanes could drop nukes without being detected..

Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:26 pm

flyingturtle wrote:
VSMUT wrote:
A far more credible threat would be if they could fit a nuke into one of their MD-500s, and then disguise it to look like an American MH-6 or South Korean Defender. Or sail it into Seoul or Tokyo in a midget-submarine, or smuggle it in via a 3rd part country and simply drive it into the middle of Seoul or Tokyo in a truck or van.


Set up an Import-Export company (hehe, Mr. Bond) and use it as a front to receive shipping containers. Many of them aren't checked when they cross frontiers.


David


For all we know, they could already have a nuclear weapon hidden somewhere in the US, RoK or Japan, just waiting for the order to go out to the sleeper agents.
 
bilgerat
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Re: North Korea radial biplanes could drop nukes without being detected..

Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:15 am

My understanding is the An-2 "stealth" claims are to do with the aircraft being able to fly incredibly slow, and combined with very low altitude flight would potentially make it impossible to detect with pulse doppler radars, or it may appear as traffic on a highway to AWACS radars.

An interesting theory which I hope isn't put to the test.
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: North Korea radial biplanes could drop nukes without being detected..

Thu Sep 07, 2017 11:40 am

[quote="bilgerat"][/quote]

The Swiss Army might help. Some years ago we had problems with our radars... cows appeared on them as soon as they walked. So our air defence radar turned into a GMTI one (ground moving target indicator).


David
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
iamlucky13
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Re: North Korea radial biplanes could drop nukes without being detected..

Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:35 am

bilgerat wrote:
My understanding is the An-2 "stealth" claims are to do with the aircraft being able to fly incredibly slow, and combined with very low altitude flight would potentially make it impossible to detect with pulse doppler radars, or it may appear as traffic on a highway to AWACS radars.

An interesting theory which I hope isn't put to the test.


It does have less total high reflectivity surface than a metal-skinned aircraft, and I could even see the tubular frame having some RCS advantages in certain radar bands, but especially after considering the engine, we're talking about modest decreases in detection range, not radical ones.

After all, it's not like there weren't plenty of other non-metallic aircraft flying around in the early days of radar to provide data for the various air forces about how much advantage the De Havilland Mosquito, for example, had over a similar sized aircraft like the P-38.
 
 
tu204
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Re: North Korea radial biplanes could drop nukes without being detected..

Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:05 pm

The An-2 isn't invisible to radars. At least the A-50 (IL-76) AWACS can see it, I would suppose that the original A-50 is not more advanced than the AWACS aircraft the USAF has.

Heres a Russian show where they test an A-50 versus a bunch of An-2's and a Mi-8 under different conditions.

https://youtu.be/yzUi3k_dBgM
(In Russian, cool videos though)
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Balerit
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Re: North Korea radial biplanes could drop nukes without being detected..

Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:24 pm

You guys are so paranoid, been watching too many spy movies. :)
Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (retired).
 
WIederling
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Re: North Korea radial biplanes could drop nukes without being detected..

Sat Sep 09, 2017 9:25 am

Balerit wrote:
You guys are so paranoid, been watching too many spy movies. :)


On occasion and in recent times I have the impression that the ( mostly US ) spooks
have been reading all too much spy novels and then try creating
a Real World Role Playing Game from the gist.

My caveat: Novels don't work in Real Life.
Murphy is an optimist
 
bilgerat
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Re: North Korea radial biplanes could drop nukes without being detected..

Wed Sep 13, 2017 12:52 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
It does have less total high reflectivity surface than a metal-skinned aircraft, and I could even see the tubular frame having some RCS advantages.


The An-2 is all metal construction. The theory I was talking about has nothing to do with RCS. The theory is the An-2 can fly so *low* and so *slow* that a pulse doppler radar will reject it as a valid target.
 
VSMUT
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Re: North Korea radial biplanes could drop nukes without being detected..

Wed Sep 13, 2017 2:15 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
bilgerat wrote:
My understanding is the An-2 "stealth" claims are to do with the aircraft being able to fly incredibly slow, and combined with very low altitude flight would potentially make it impossible to detect with pulse doppler radars, or it may appear as traffic on a highway to AWACS radars.

An interesting theory which I hope isn't put to the test.


It does have less total high reflectivity surface than a metal-skinned aircraft, and I could even see the tubular frame having some RCS advantages in certain radar bands, but especially after considering the engine, we're talking about modest decreases in detection range, not radical ones.

After all, it's not like there weren't plenty of other non-metallic aircraft flying around in the early days of radar to provide data for the various air forces about how much advantage the De Havilland Mosquito, for example, had over a similar sized aircraft like the P-38.


Totally disagree. Once you get rid of the metal skin, this is what the radar will see. The surface area of the aircraft structure is much larger, with far more surfaces that will bounce the signal back to the radar receiver:

Image
 
iamlucky13
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Re: North Korea radial biplanes could drop nukes without being detected..

Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:41 am

bilgerat wrote:
iamlucky13 wrote:
It does have less total high reflectivity surface than a metal-skinned aircraft, and I could even see the tubular frame having some RCS advantages.


The An-2 is all metal construction. The theory I was talking about has nothing to do with RCS. The theory is the An-2 can fly so *low* and so *slow* that a pulse doppler radar will reject it as a valid target.


Sorry, you're right. I had a mistaken memory of reading somewhere, long before this nonsensical article, that the An-2 was plywood and/or fabric skinned.
 
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seahawk
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Re: North Korea radial biplanes could drop nukes without being detected..

Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:50 am

AN-2 was stealthy when it could fly slower than the cut-off speed for the ground moving target indicator. With the processing power of today´s radars, this is no longer the case as they can track more targets, slower targets and consider height and speed before ignoring a target.

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