ThePointblank
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Indian Navy Slams the MiG-29K's, Again

Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:27 am

I'm finding it very hard to believe that the MiG-29K's break every time they conduct a carrier landing, requiring a visit to the workshop for repair/replacement of whatever is broken. If that's even remotely true, that's a serious problem.

http://www.defensenews.com/land/2017/08 ... uggedized/


According to the MoD official, the government would prefer an agreement involving the Navy, Russia and HAL to undertake structural improvements for the MiG-29K fighters.

The call for improved ruggedness originates from an issue after deck landings. The MiG-29K fighter’s settings reportedly require a reset after landing on the deck of the carrier.

“After every carrier landing (which is virtually like a crash), components of the aircraft crack, break or stop functioning. The aircraft, then goes to the workshop for repair/replacement of the part, which often has to come from Russia,” Prakash said.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Indian Navy Slams the MiG-29K's, Again

Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:47 am

Interesting, a carrier aircraft which seems not be carrier capable. So will we see another aircraft picked? Rafale M perhaps with the Rafale picked for the airforce? Expensive, yes, but it will work.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Ozair
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Re: Indian Navy Slams the MiG-29K's, Again

Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:36 am

Dutchy wrote:
Interesting, a carrier aircraft which seems not be carrier capable. So will we see another aircraft picked? Rafale M perhaps with the Rafale picked for the airforce? Expensive, yes, but it will work.

The Indian navy already has a current tender out for 57 new carrier aircraft.

http://indianexpress.com/article/india/indian-navy-launches-search-to-procure-57-carrier-borne-fighter-jets-4496326/

Poor reporting though given the Gripen has never landed on a carrier nor is the Gripen carrier capable. .
Currently, six planes are compatible for aircraft carrier flying. They are Rafale (Dassault, France), F-18 Super Hornet (Boeing, US), MIG-29K (Russia), F-35B and F-35C (Lockheed Martin, US) and Gripen (Saab, Sweden).
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Indian Navy Slams the MiG-29K's, Again

Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:32 am

Ozair wrote:
Poor reporting though given the Gripen has never landed on a carrier nor is the Gripen carrier capable.


Still Saab is keen to develop such a variant. https://saab.com/hu/region/india/about- ... air-power/
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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SAS A340
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Re: Indian Navy Slams the MiG-29K's, Again

Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:38 am

Yes they are, and it,s named Gripen M (Maritime)....
http://www.gripenblogs.com/Lists/Posts/ ... px?ID=1632
It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
 
LightningZ71
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Re: Indian Navy Slams the MiG-29K's, Again

Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:13 pm

Well, that was unexpected...

That's a considerable amount of investment for essentially one possible customer.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Indian Navy Slams the MiG-29K's, Again

Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:22 pm

LightningZ71 wrote:
Well, that was unexpected...

That's a considerable amount of investment for essentially one possible customer.


Not if Brazil foots the bill.
 
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Slug71
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Re: Indian Navy Slams the MiG-29K's, Again

Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:42 pm

I imagine there will be a naval version of the Mig-35 at some point.
I think the Shenyang F/C-31 is also supposed to have a naval variant in the future.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Indian Navy Slams the MiG-29K's, Again

Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:00 pm

Slug71 wrote:
I imagine there will be a naval version of the Mig-35 at some point.
I think the Shenyang F/C-31 is also supposed to have a naval variant in the future.


I think Indian navy might be fat up with Mikojan-Goerevitsj after getting these MiG-29K's.

Apparently yes, the Shenyang FC-31 is going to be converted for carrier operations. Good catch. Although changes that this will fly with the Indian navy are slim at best. China and India aren't BFF's.

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ ... arrier-ops

Image
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Slug71
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Re: Indian Navy Slams the MiG-29K's, Again

Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:24 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
I imagine there will be a naval version of the Mig-35 at some point.
I think the Shenyang F/C-31 is also supposed to have a naval variant in the future.


I think Indian navy might be fat up with Mikojan-Goerevitsj after getting these MiG-29K's.

Apparently yes, the Shenyang FC-31 is going to be converted for carrier operations. Good catch. Although changes that this will fly with the Indian navy are slim at best. China and India aren't BFF's.

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ ... arrier-ops

Image


I don't think the relationship is as tainted as the media likes portray though. I'm sure they have their differences, but they are both members of BRICS.
The Indians are already familiar with the RD-93 engine too.

I'm going to cross post this to not derail the thread, but I'm actually surprised that Mikoyan hasn't approached Shenyang to produce a licensed version. Sukhoi has the SU-35 alongside the T-50 while Mikoyan has no 5th Gen offering, and the F/C-31 is sized around the Mig platform. Would save a lot in the R&D department.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Indian Navy Slams the MiG-29K's, Again

Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:36 pm

Slug71 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Slug71 wrote:
I imagine there will be a naval version of the Mig-35 at some point.
I think the Shenyang F/C-31 is also supposed to have a naval variant in the future.


I think Indian navy might be fat up with Mikojan-Goerevitsj after getting these MiG-29K's.

Apparently yes, the Shenyang FC-31 is going to be converted for carrier operations. Good catch. Although changes that this will fly with the Indian navy are slim at best. China and India aren't BFF's.

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/ ... arrier-ops

Image


I don't think the relationship is as tainted as the media likes portray though. I'm sure they have their differences, but they are both members of BRICS.
The Indians are already familiar with the RD-93 engine too.

I'm going to cross post this to not derail the thread, but I'm actually surprised that Mikoyan hasn't approached Shenyang to produce a licensed version. Sukhoi has the SU-35 alongside the T-50 while Mikoyan has no 5th Gen offering, and the F/C-31 is sized around the Mig platform. Would save a lot in the R&D department.


Well, this doesn't sound like BFF to me: China and India in war of words over Bhutan border dispute

http://edition.cnn.com/2017/07/03/asia/ ... index.html

And China and Pakistan are rather close.

BRICS isn't really a tight organization, it was made up by the chairman of Goldman Sachs Asset Management, Jim O'Neill.

That is a nice suggestion, Mikoyan license produce the Shenyang, but why would Shenyang and how good is the product of F/C-31?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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Phosphorus
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Re: Indian Navy Slams the MiG-29K's, Again

Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:48 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Interesting, a carrier aircraft which seems not be carrier capable. So will we see another aircraft picked? Rafale M perhaps with the Rafale picked for the airforce? Expensive, yes, but it will work.

Well, the US learned this lesson the hard way -- adapting land-based fast jets to carrier operations is a task not worth undertaking: poor investment overall; on the other hand, adapting fast jets, designed for carriers, to operate from land bases, is doable, and sometimes quite successful.

Soviets hoped to overcome those difficulties with the adaptation of MiG-29 into carrier operations as MiG-29K. Apparently, the results were not up to (at least Indian Navy's) expectations.
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Dutchy
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Re: Indian Navy Slams the MiG-29K's, Again

Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:53 pm

Phosphorus wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
Interesting, a carrier aircraft which seems not be carrier capable. So will we see another aircraft picked? Rafale M perhaps with the Rafale picked for the airforce? Expensive, yes, but it will work.

Well, the US learned this lesson the hard way -- adapting land-based fast jets to carrier operations is a task not worth undertaking: poor investment overall; on the other hand, adapting fast jets, designed for carriers, to operate from land bases, is doable, and sometimes quite successful.

Soviets hoped to overcome those difficulties with the adaptation of MiG-29 into carrier operations as MiG-29K. Apparently, the results were not up to (at least Indian Navy's) expectations.


That is quite an interesting question. How does the MiG-29K do with the Russian Navy?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Ozair
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Re: Indian Navy Slams the MiG-29K's, Again

Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:09 am

Dutchy wrote:
Ozair wrote:
Poor reporting though given the Gripen has never landed on a carrier nor is the Gripen carrier capable.


Still Saab is keen to develop such a variant. https://saab.com/hu/region/india/about- ... air-power/

SAS A340 wrote:
Yes they are, and it,s named Gripen M (Maritime)....
http://www.gripenblogs.com/Lists/Posts/ ... px?ID=1632

Which is every bit as Saab has described a concept. I also am not exactly confident Brazilian engineers have a lot of experience designing carrier capable aircraft...

VSMUT wrote:

Not if Brazil foots the bill.

What incentive would they have to do that? Brazil has retired their carrier and are highly unlikely to have a new carrier in service for at least the next 15 years. No point paying for a carrier variant of an aircraft just in case…

Slug71 wrote:
I imagine there will be a naval version of the Mig-35 at some point.
I think the Shenyang F/C-31 is also supposed to have a naval variant in the future.

If we are adding naval aircraft then the J-15 fits as well but there is zero chance that India will acquire a Chinese military jet.

Dutchy wrote:

That is quite an interesting question. How does the MiG-29K do with the Russian Navy?

Russian MiG-29Ks spent most of their recent deployment flying land based operations from Syria. There have also been numerous accidents although that is common with most nations operating carrier aviation.
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Indian Navy Slams the MiG-29K's, Again

Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:32 am

I'm in San Diego and one side of me is a former naval aviator and on the other a former AF pilot. Both flew F4's

I can't tell you I understand a lot of what I have over heard at out neighborhood barbecues but it is clear that there is a world of difference between the AF and Naval versions of these two ac.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Indian Navy Slams the MiG-29K's, Again

Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:55 pm

Ozair wrote:
VSMUT wrote:

Not if Brazil foots the bill.

What incentive would they have to do that? Brazil has retired their carrier and are highly unlikely to have a new carrier in service for at least the next 15 years. No point paying for a carrier variant of an aircraft just in case…


Brazil still has ambitions to become a carrier power. Right from the start, the Foch was just an interim carrier until they got round to building their own. They currently state a goal of having it in service by 2029. Brazil has more or less been the driving force behind the Sea Gripen ever since they selected the Gripen NG.

http://www.janes.com/article/67739/braz ... tion-plans

Brazil cancels aircraft carrier modernisation plans wrote:
The Brazilian Navy's said acquiring a new aircraft carrier and naval aircraft will become the service's third priority, after its submarines and Tamandaré-class corvette programmes that are part of the service's strategic project 'Construção do Núcleo do Poder Naval'. The navy hopes to develop and locally build two aircraft carriers each displacing approximately 50,000 tonnes.


The submarines, 4x enlargened Scorpenes by DCNS and a single new Brazilian-French designed nuclear submarine, are already on their way with deliveries from 2020 to 2025, and the 4x Tamandare corvettes will be delivered between 2021 to 2024.

DCNS is pushing heavily for their Evolved Aircraft Carrier, which they are also hoping to sell to France and India:

Image
 
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seahawk
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Re: Indian Navy Slams the MiG-29K's, Again

Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:04 pm

The simple and save solution is the Super Hornet. The LCA will use the engine anyway and the frame is tried and tested for carrier ops.
 
Ozair
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Re: Indian Navy Slams the MiG-29K's, Again

Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:20 pm

VSMUT wrote:

Brazil still has ambitions to become a carrier power. Right from the start, the Foch was just an interim carrier until they got round to building their own. They currently state a goal of having it in service by 2029. Brazil has more or less been the driving force behind the Sea Gripen ever since they selected the Gripen NG.

If Brazil is looking at 2029 then they need to begin that work now, not wait 5 years to get other acquisitions out of the way. If they plan to buy a carrier from the UK, France or India we know how long it has taken all three of those nations to bring vessels into service. The other consideration is Brazil currently has little additional funding available, budgets are tight and a refurb of the San Paolo was deemed too costly while a new build would be at least twice that. A lower risk option would be to acquire a US amphib, such as a LHA-6, and purchase used AV-8Bs or F-35Bs. Cheaper to operate, maintain and train aircrew and with F-35Bs more capable than any other naval airframe the Brazilians could acquire.

Either way, India almost certainly won't be selecting the Gripen M, the risk is simply too great given the aircraft has never flown and India would remain the sole operator of the airframe for a significant period of time.
 
Ozair
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Re: Indian Navy Slams the MiG-29K's, Again

Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:26 pm

seahawk wrote:
The simple and save solution is the Super Hornet. The LCA will use the engine anyway and the frame is tried and tested for carrier ops.

How capable is the SH for STOBAR ops though? STOBAR typically brings payload issues for heavier aircraft, hence why in Russian service the MiG-29K are typically more capable than and will eventually replace the Su-33s.
 
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neutrino
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Re: Indian Navy Slams the MiG-29K's, Again

Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:44 am

Never say never. As such, allow me the liberty to add thus (enlarged font):
Ozair wrote:
If we are adding naval aircraft then the J-15 fits as well but there is next-to-zero chance that India will acquire a Chinese military jet.
Potestatem obscuri lateris nescitis
 
VSMUT
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Re: Indian Navy Slams the MiG-29K's, Again

Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:49 am

Ozair wrote:
and a refurb of the San Paolo was deemed too costly while a new build would be at least twice that.


*São Paolo

The 2029 claims are from Brazil, personally I doubt them.
Regarding the cost of the São Paolo, you don't know if it was deemed too costly compared to the end result, or too costly for the overall navy budget. Considering that they are working on their "own" class of nuclear submarines, the overall budget seems big enough. She is almost 60 years old, so spending anything more than centavos on her would be questionable, hence the "too costly" claim.


Ozair wrote:
A lower risk option would be to acquire a US amphib, such as a LHA-6, and purchase used AV-8Bs or F-35Bs. Cheaper to operate, maintain and train aircrew and with F-35Bs more capable than any other naval airframe the Brazilians could acquire.


And there we are, our local LM rep immediately promoting his product in a thread that has aboslutely nothing to do with the JSF... :roll: FYI, the reasons why Brazil decided against the F/A-18E/F are the same as why they won't consider the F-35. NSA spying and the US won't allow them to build the aircraft from scratch. This is afterall the country that refused to buy the C-130J, in favour of a homegrown alternative.


Ozair wrote:
Either way, India almost certainly won't be selecting the Gripen M, the risk is simply too great given the aircraft has never flown and India would remain the sole operator of the airframe for a significant period of time.


IMHO, they won't select it because far more obvious and better suited choices exist, namely the Rafale and MiG-29K.
 
dtw2hyd
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Re: Indian Navy Slams the MiG-29K's, Again

Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:19 am

Interesting choice of headline/title. Just don't slam the jet on to the deck, landing gear will do just fine.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Indian Navy Slams the MiG-29K's, Again

Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:30 am

VSMUT wrote:
IMHO, they won't select it because far more obvious and better suited choices exist, namely the Rafale and MiG-29K.


I have a sneaky suspicion that they will not purchase more MiG-29K if they have problems with that at the moment. The Rafale will be the logical choice I guess. But heck the Indian defense forces aren't known for logical or efficient processes, so who knows, even the Saab might be victorious. :D
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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keesje
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Re: Indian Navy Slams the MiG-29K's, Again

Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:47 am

Why ignore the obvious..

Image
"Never mistake motion for action." Ernest Hemingway
 
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seahawk
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Re: Indian Navy Slams the MiG-29K's, Again

Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:08 pm

Rafale M and SH are both obvious options. The SH engine will be used by the LCA Mk.2 and the Rafale will enter Air Force service in limited number. Both have also seen some time in service now and can be considered proven for carrier ops.
 
LMP737
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Re: Indian Navy Slams the MiG-29K's, Again

Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:09 pm

SAS A340 wrote:
Yes they are, and it,s named Gripen M (Maritime)....
http://www.gripenblogs.com/Lists/Posts/ ... px?ID=1632


India might be hesitant to go with a manufacturer that has no previous experience with carrier aircraft after the last go around.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
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Spiderguy252
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Re: Indian Navy Slams the MiG-29K's, Again

Tue Aug 29, 2017 5:59 am

Considering the Indian Navy has multiple carriers inbound over the next decade and a half they better get this right. They've already ditched the Naval Tejas, so there.
Vahroone
 
Ozair
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Re: Indian Navy Slams the MiG-29K's, Again

Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:04 pm

keesje wrote:
Why ignore the obvious..

Image

Interestingly enough, both the Rafale and SH are probably going to struggle to fulfil the requirement for a new carrier airframe given neither fit the elevators of the future Indian carrier while the SH only barely fits one elevator on the current carrier and the Rafale doesn't fit at all.

Despite recent reports that the two Western MRCBF competitors could operate from INS Vikramaditya in addition to the Indian Navy’s future carriers, this is simply not possible. The converted Soviet-era ‘aircraft carrying cruiser’ has two aircraft elevators that are located within the flight deck, instead of on the deck-edges, and both are too small to accommodate either the Super Hornet or the Rafale. The larger forward lift, beside the carrier’s superstructure, is 18.8 x 9.9 metres, while the Super Hornet’s wings fold to just under 10 metres and the Rafale’s wings, slightly less than 11 metres wide, do not fold at all. The aft lift is narrower, with an 8.6-metre width that is barely able to fit the MiG-29K’s 7.5-metre folded span. The Naval LCA, with a wingspan of a little over eight metres, would certainly have fit the forward lift if not the aft one – the Navy prefers for aircraft carrier elevators to be sufficiently larger than the aircraft they will carry for ease of aircraft handling and movement.

The real ‘show stopper’ for the entire MRCBF requirement, however, is the configuration of IAC-1. Unlike Vikramaditya, and like most contemporary carriers, the aircraft lifts on IAC-1 are positioned on the starboard edge of the deck allowing longer aircraft to ‘hang out’ over the water with only their landing gear on the platform. But because the carrier was designed around an air wing of MiG-29Ks and Naval LCAs, the lifts were sized for wingspans no larger than eight metres. 10 x 14 metres, to be precise. While MiG-29Ks and N-LCAs can fit on these lifts with parts of their noses or empennages hanging over the edges, the Super Hornet and Rafale once again cannot.

Both Boeing and Dassault are apparently working on solutions to allow their aircraft to fit the lifts. Sources close to the programme said that Boeing is considering a system that would allow the Super Horner to sit canted on the lift, the tilt of the (folded) wings thereby resulting in a slightly shorter overall span measured parallel to the deck. With its fixed wings, the Rafale cannot offer such a solution, and Dassault is understood to be exploring a detachable wingtip, although this involves greater engineering and certification challenges.

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