- F-16 (requests sent to Greece, Israel and the US)
- F/A-50
- Gripen
It'll be interesting to see how it pans out this time...
Moderators: richierich, ua900, PanAm_DC10, hOMSaR
JetBuddy wrote:How many aircraft are they looking for?
Dutchy wrote:No used JAS39?
CX747 wrote:Hard to beat the F-16 in this arena. Overwhelming International fleet, parts, training and support. It truly outstrips other platforms in this regard.
BawliBooch wrote:Over a decade back, I heard from some sources in the Indian Defense ministry that 2 dozen well maintained HAL built Mig-21's were being offered "for free" to the Croatian AF if they bought some HAL built Dhruv Helicopters.
Wonder if that deal actually went through?
LightningZ71 wrote:The cheapest? Perhaps some high mileage business jets could be fitted with a couple of launch rails for AAMs from their existing inventory. It would be just about as effective as most any of the lower end trainers or retired fighters that are out there, but perhaps much cheaper to maintain... Obviously would require a lot of electronics work, but, hey, when you save a lot on the platform...
TripleDelta wrote:If we're looking at the issue solely through the prism of air policing, an ideal solution would be one that has some of the raw performance of a dedicated fighter - but not all of the capability. Which pretty much falls right into the heading of the modern armed trainer.
EDIT: the big question then is does the Croatian AF see itself a purely defensive force (which it is at the moment); or do they have any plans for a future offensive capability in mind (such as participating in multinational missions). This will likely be the biggest factor - aside from pure politics - that will decide what class of aircraft will win.
TripleDelta wrote:Now being reported in the media (most reliable source, in Croatian: http://obris.org/hrvatska/morh-poslao-r ... eni-avion/) that the government had today once again issued five RFPs for the replacement of its rag-tag MiG-21 fleet. The contenders are:
- F-16 (requests sent to Greece, Israel and the US)
- F/A-50
- Gripen
It'll be interesting to see how it pans out this time...
tapairbus370 wrote:They could try to negotiate "hard" with Greece, don´t know how well they their planes are mantained or wich version are but I imagine Greece would like to make some money fast and would love this oportunity.... that´s just my point of view.
Don´t you think?
TripleDelta wrote:tapairbus370 wrote:They could try to negotiate "hard" with Greece, don´t know how well they their planes are mantained or wich version are but I imagine Greece would like to make some money fast and would love this oportunity.... that´s just my point of view.
Don´t you think?
Greece was quite a surprise actually... used F-16s from Europe have always been on the cards, but only Portugal and the Netherlands had ever been mentioned as possible sources.
In other news, the newspapers report that the government has already secured funds in the 2018 budget for the first instalment of the buy. The due date for submitting offers is 3 October, and it is reported that 10 single seaters and two twin sticks are required.
mig21umd wrote:his ambition to not allow Croatia to be in the situation it found it self in the early 90's.
TripleDelta wrote:mig21umd wrote:his ambition to not allow Croatia to be in the situation it found it self in the early 90's.
And that is precisely the most worrying thing in this - and all previous - replacement attempts: old guard soldiers living in times gone by buying stuff the country doesn't need with money it doesn't have. This mix of ex-Yugoslav "everyone's the enemy" paranoia and 90s flag waving is exactly the reason the CroAF is nowadays in such a poor operational state.
If the inclusion of proper fighter aircraft is guided by the desire to eventually become a contributing member of NATO, that would not raise a single local eyebrow; despite the cost of such a solution, the political points gained could in time far outweigh the actual cash spent.
But if the intent is to enter into a trans-Danube willy measuring contest, then the whole deal is a waste of time and money... money that could be better spent on, for example, reforming the CroAF's fixed-wing transport capability, or acquiring newer utility helicopters.
mig21umd wrote:Any conflict in the region could have a much larger impact on the Croatian economy compared to the cost of a number of modern fighters. When you consider the cost the last conflict had I believe the "old guard" is talking more about ensuring Croatia does not present as a easy target again more than worrying about the size of their collective johns.
Dutchy wrote:Still hoping for the SAAB to win, in the long term, it might also be the better option. The F-16 is on its way out.
mig21umd wrote:This has resulted in SAAB along with the Swedish government increasing its lobbying and offering to build a large science and aeronautical center in Zagreb.
Saab is also building relationships through a global innovation programme, which is mainly designed for countries where Saab wants to establish a long-term presence. Saab brings the way the company works with R&D in Sweden to new markets by buil ding relationships with researchers, companies and governments. One example is the Swedish Brazilian Innovation & Research Center (CISB), which identifies, develops and supports research and development in advanced technology, specifically in the areas of the environment, defence, and transport. The organisation has 17 members and over 100 partners. Many potential customers want to share the technologies and capabilities that Saab can offer, at the same time that Saab gets an opportunity to participate early on in customer projects.
Ozair wrote:Dutchy wrote:Still hoping for the SAAB to win, in the long term, it might also be the better option. The F-16 is on its way out.
I think the F-16s fate is now in the hands of India. Given they are also choosing between the above two, albeit the latest variants of each platform, whichever wins will see local production of 200 jets. In the F-16 case India would become the sole production line and continue to support existing fleets for the remaining life of type. With Gripen they will manufacture locally but that would become the third production line for Gripen so export orders from an Indian line would be doubtful.
Dutchy wrote:Ozair wrote:Dutchy wrote:Still hoping for the SAAB to win, in the long term, it might also be the better option. The F-16 is on its way out.
I think the F-16s fate is now in the hands of India. Given they are also choosing between the above two, albeit the latest variants of each platform, whichever wins will see local production of 200 jets. In the F-16 case India would become the sole production line and continue to support existing fleets for the remaining life of type. With Gripen they will manufacture locally but that would become the third production line for Gripen so export orders from an Indian line would be doubtful.
Not to sidetrack this thread completely, but do we expect to see many new orders for the F-16? I expect only to see 50 top-ups at the most and wouldn't be surprised to see any delivered to non-Indian operators.
Ozair wrote:Dutchy wrote:Ozair wrote:I think the F-16s fate is now in the hands of India. Given they are also choosing between the above two, albeit the latest variants of each platform, whichever wins will see local production of 200 jets. In the F-16 case India would become the sole production line and continue to support existing fleets for the remaining life of type. With Gripen they will manufacture locally but that would become the third production line for Gripen so export orders from an Indian line would be doubtful.
Not to sidetrack this thread completely, but do we expect to see many new orders for the F-16? I expect only to see 50 top-ups at the most and wouldn't be surprised to see any delivered to non-Indian operators.
Agree I think 50 outside of India is probably too many but there is still a long future in upgrade work and spare parts given even the USAF will have F-16s around for another 15 years. Perhaps a good 25 years at least and much longer if India does choose the F-16.
mig21umd wrote:Dutchy wrote:Thanks for keeping us updated, will it be publicly announced next week?
This is what it sounds like. The committee will present what they have decided to be the best option to the Croatian government which SHOULD then make a decision by years end.
Apparently the Israeli's are favored at this time because their offer is 300 million Euro's cheaper than what the Swedes are offering and the aircraft have recently been refurbished so they have about 2500 hours left on the air-frames which will give Croatia at least 25 years of operational use.
SAS A340 wrote:mig21umd wrote:Dutchy wrote:Thanks for keeping us updated, will it be publicly announced next week?
This is what it sounds like. The committee will present what they have decided to be the best option to the Croatian government which SHOULD then make a decision by years end.
Apparently the Israeli's are favored at this time because their offer is 300 million Euro's cheaper than what the Swedes are offering and the aircraft have recently been refurbished so they have about 2500 hours left on the air-frames which will give Croatia at least 25 years of operational use.
2500 hours/25 years is about 25 minutes/day.... is it even enough for training?
Dutchy wrote:Wasn't the NATO recommendation that a fighter pilot flies 180h/year?
Dutchy wrote:True, but will that work go to India? Will all spare parts be produced there?
Howard said winning the Indian contract worth billions of dollars will protect thousands of jobs at Lockheed in the United States as well as at dozens of components suppliers, since the Indian facility will come up gradually.
"We will start with an assembly, you can't go from ground zero, from a standing stop to full production in a week. You have to phase it in."
mig21umd wrote:Some have argued that this is not a necessity for Croatia but I think peace in this part of the world can't be taken for granted and as a result I think it is important that Croatia does not give up on its fast jet capability. This is something which can be very difficult and extremely expensive to regain so if it is possible to maintain it than I hope Croatia does.
TripleDelta wrote:Surprise, surprise - the final decision has been indefinitely postponed again. The gov't had announced that it wanted to examine the two remaining bids in more detail - a move that had been met with considerable surprise and incredulity from military circles, who view it as pressure from SAAB to drop the preferred Israeli offer which had - up till now - been all but officially chosen.
Ozair wrote:TripleDelta wrote:Surprise, surprise - the final decision has been indefinitely postponed again. The gov't had announced that it wanted to examine the two remaining bids in more detail - a move that had been met with considerable surprise and incredulity from military circles, who view it as pressure from SAAB to drop the preferred Israeli offer which had - up till now - been all but officially chosen.
I think we should take bets on whether Canada or Croatia will get their new fighters first, both seem unable to follow a process.
Dutchy wrote:
In most countries they follow the same path, simple, military spending, especially a fighter, is a high stake game and pushing it through parliament is quite hard because there will always be better ways to spend this kind of money by investing it in society.
Dutchy wrote:In most countries they follow the same path, simple, military spending, especially a fighter, is a high stake game and pushing it through parliament is quite hard because there will always be better ways to spend this kind of money by investing it in society.
Ozair wrote:I'm sure TripleDelta can tell us how long this replacement process has been going on but it has been restarted at least a couple of times.
Ozair wrote:Clearly cost, and need, are issues but, please correct if I am wrong, they keep arriving at the same conclusion.