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JetBuddy
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UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Mon Jun 26, 2017 3:31 pm

The Royal Navy is set to launch its largest and most powerful warship ever Monday.

The record-breaking, 65,000-tonne HMS Queen Elizabeth will make her maiden voyage from Rosyth, going out to sea for six weeks of tests. The 280-metre carrier and her sister ship, the HMS Prince of Wales, has cost £6 billion and will become the UK’s first aircraft carrier since the HMS Illustrious was decommissioned in 2014.

HMS Queen Elizabeth is three times the size of the decommissioned HMS Illustrious and HMS Ark Royal.

The flight deck is more than four acres in size and the ship can carry up to 36 F-35B stealth jump jets.

Image

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06 ... ea-trials/
 
Sooner787
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Mon Jun 26, 2017 5:59 pm

Nice looking ship, I like the dual island design
 
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SamYeager2016
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Mon Jun 26, 2017 6:49 pm

JetBuddy wrote:
The Royal Navy is set to launch its largest and most powerful warship ever Monday.



Slight nitpick but it's already had its initial launch. I think what's more to the point is that it's moving under its own power. Can't seem to find any footage of her moving at present. Official PR blurb.
 
aviationaware
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:18 pm

Sooner787 wrote:
Nice looking ship, I like the dual island design


Any background on why they went for that? I imagine it's pretty problematic, it goes against all the things that caused the island to be tiny on the Ford class.
 
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moo
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Mon Jun 26, 2017 8:41 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Sooner787 wrote:
Nice looking ship, I like the dual island design


Any background on why they went for that? I imagine it's pretty problematic, it goes against all the things that caused the island to be tiny on the Ford class.


Read the past threads on the topic, this is a well trodden topic and it's pointless to go over it again. Just because the USN does it one way and the RN does it another doesn't make either one "wrong" because they don't operate the same way.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:05 pm

aviationaware wrote:
Sooner787 wrote:
Nice looking ship, I like the dual island design


Any background on why they went for that? I imagine it's pretty problematic, it goes against all the things that caused the island to be tiny on the Ford class.


An 'island' towards the stern of the ship is beneficial to aircraft operations, an island towards the bow is beneficial for navigating the ship.
 
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MrHMSH
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:05 pm

MrHMSH wrote:
aviationaware wrote:
Sooner787 wrote:
Nice looking ship, I like the dual island design


Any background on why they went for that? I imagine it's pretty problematic, it goes against all the things that caused the island to be tiny on the Ford class.


An 'island' towards the stern of the ship is beneficial to aircraft operations, an island towards the bow is beneficial for navigating the ship.


I think it looks great, now I look forward to see it being an actual aircraft carrier!
 
LightningZ71
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Mon Jun 26, 2017 9:37 pm

I'm still a bit surprised that they elected to have, as it's only defensive weaponry, a couple of Phalanx systems and a quartet of 30mm bushmasters. Given the ever growing threat of supersonic cruise missiles spreading to more potential adversaries and ongoing development of hypersonic anti-ship missiles, you'd think that something with a bit more reach would make more sense in the point-defense role. SeaRAM can go anywhere that Phalanx lives and would seem to be a better fit for this purpose.
 
ChrisKen
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:11 pm

Carriers generally don't deploy alone. The task group provide mutual defence.
 
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Tugger
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Mon Jun 26, 2017 10:24 pm

Also remember that HMS Queen Elizabeth is not nuclear. The twin island also allowed optimum plant routing for the forward and aft engine rooms, two Rolls Royce diesel engines in each.

She is a beautiful ship!

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
iamlucky13
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Mon Jun 26, 2017 11:38 pm

ChrisKen wrote:
Carriers generally don't deploy alone. The task group provide mutual defence.


LightningZ71 does have a point about SeaRAMS though.

The Nimitz and Ford class carriers I think currently have 2 each of Phalanx CIWS, RAMS, and Evolved Sea Sparrow mounts, providing engagement options for multiple ranges.

One concern about Phalanx is that by the time a target comes within range, it may be so close that even if the warhead is detonated its momentum may continue carrying the fragments and burning fuel forward with enough speed to reach and potentially damage the ship. Apparently this actually happened during a live fire test in the 80's with a target drone - it was destroyed by a Phalanx aboard USS Antrim, but debris struck the ship and killed an instructor onboard.

As a result, it's highly preferable to have a longer range option for point defense, in addition to Phalanx.
 
LightningZ71
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:34 pm

It's not just flying debris. For supersonic missiles (and the follow on hyper sonic ones) the engagement time available for the Phalanx system can be measured in a handful of seconds. With more than one leaker through the long range missile screen provided by the escorting ships, the phalanx system (only one or two can be expected to be able to train in the direction of the incoming missiles at a time) would be hard pressed to acquire, track, engage the first missile, then, assuming it has a quick success, acquire, track and engage a second missile in an timeframe of less than a few seconds. The second issue is that phalanx systems have rather limited ammunition. They only carry enough in the loaded belt for less than ten seconds of continuous fire (I've heard figures as low as 6 seconds). Having watched videos of test engagements against subsonic drones, it can take upwards of two seconds of firing to down a missile. A couple of missiles and the mount is empty.

Compare this to SeaRAM, which has an operational range of over 10km, an 11 round magazine (usually fired in pairs, but works well in single fire), and has the ability to track a maneuverable missile. The phalanx system has a maximum engagement range of less than 25% of that, enough ammunition in the drum to maybe engage three missiles, and is limited in its ability to handle maneuvering missiles. It seems to be no contest. Both have the ability to engage small surface targets, though the SeaRAM can do so at a longer range (though, with the bushmasters on both the QE and US ships, that is a redundant feature).

However, from my recent reading on the subject, it appears that the British are developing the Captor (CAMM/Sea Ceptor) missile system, which is loosely based on the ASRAAM, as a replacement for the seawolf system. This appears to fit somewhere between the US ESSM and SeaRAM system in size and capability (can quad pack in VLS/ABLs, shorter range than ESSM, flexible like SeaRAM, capable of point defense). It looks like it will be a first major maintenance cycle/refit addition to the QE carriers to replace the Phalanx systems. We'll just have to see how development progresses and how funding comes available for it.
 
wingman
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Tue Jun 27, 2017 3:54 pm

It's certainly a lot of ship to sail around the kingdom trying to keep it united. It's hard to see Scotland or RoI taking a shot on England with this imposing hulk flashing its stealth up and down the Irish Sea.
 
GDB
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Tue Jun 27, 2017 4:20 pm

LightningZ71 wrote:
It's not just flying debris. For supersonic missiles (and the follow on hyper sonic ones) the engagement time available for the Phalanx system can be measured in a handful of seconds. With more than one leaker through the long range missile screen provided by the escorting ships, the phalanx system (only one or two can be expected to be able to train in the direction of the incoming missiles at a time) would be hard pressed to acquire, track, engage the first missile, then, assuming it has a quick success, acquire, track and engage a second missile in an timeframe of less than a few seconds. The second issue is that phalanx systems have rather limited ammunition. They only carry enough in the loaded belt for less than ten seconds of continuous fire (I've heard figures as low as 6 seconds). Having watched videos of test engagements against subsonic drones, it can take upwards of two seconds of firing to down a missile. A couple of missiles and the mount is empty.

Compare this to SeaRAM, which has an operational range of over 10km, an 11 round magazine (usually fired in pairs, but works well in single fire), and has the ability to track a maneuverable missile. The phalanx system has a maximum engagement range of less than 25% of that, enough ammunition in the drum to maybe engage three missiles, and is limited in its ability to handle maneuvering missiles. It seems to be no contest. Both have the ability to engage small surface targets, though the SeaRAM can do so at a longer range (though, with the bushmasters on both the QE and US ships, that is a redundant feature).

However, from my recent reading on the subject, it appears that the British are developing the Captor (CAMM/Sea Ceptor) missile system, which is loosely based on the ASRAAM, as a replacement for the seawolf system. This appears to fit somewhere between the US ESSM and SeaRAM system in size and capability (can quad pack in VLS/ABLs, shorter range than ESSM, flexible like SeaRAM, capable of point defense). It looks like it will be a first major maintenance cycle/refit addition to the QE carriers to replace the Phalanx systems. We'll just have to see how development progresses and how funding comes available for it.


The RN has enough Goalkeeper systems from the retired Type 22 Frigates and carriers, 30mm GAU-8, more ammo but unlike Phalanx requires deck penetration, not a problem on such a large vessel per se, though maybe not at the locations where the Phalanx are.
My understanding is the operational fit will be 4 Phalanx and 4 30mm guns.
Plus all the plethora of machine guns around the ship but that is of course against the threat of high speed boats filled with explosives, which I'm guessing is also seen as another role of the Phalanx and certainly the 30mm cannon.

The main air defence will be from escorting Type 45 Destroyers, the RN wanted 12 (though probably starting from a high number expecting it to be whittled down, were promised 8, which they accepted, ended up with 6). Probably two T-45's for a CVF centered task group.
Along with Frigates, Type 23's and when the government actually get around to ordering them, replacement Type 26's.
The latter will have Captor and I agree, this system could be fitted to the CVF's but I doubt it will.

It should be remembered that a chunk of the CVF's operations, will be as a large LPH, which may have a small group of F-35Bs, say half a dozen, as well as Apaches, Chinooks, Merlin and Lynx Wildcat choppers, or dispense with the jets if the mission does not need them for more attack choppers.
In these littoral operations the main threat will come from at the high end, land based SSM's, not however large, advanced, supersonic ones, ditto for Fast Attack Craft launched ones. At the lower end, those speedboats.
The outer layer against FAC's will be the Lynx Wildcats, the inner, if they get any missiles away, T-45, then Phalanx. Plus of course chaff and other decoys.

In the attack carrier mode, the F-35B air-group will be another layer of defence against air launched SSM's, that is the launch platforms.
The usual air-group for Merlin helicopters will be 4 fitted with the system from the Sea King AEW aircraft, in modified modular form, (aside for tracking air targets this system, which replaced the original post Falklands lashed up 'Searchwater' Radar modification around 2000, was also sent to Afghanistan, as it was sensitive enough to track small ground targets), 5 of the other Merlin frames being for ASW/SAR.

Some Movement;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywXmV5gddlg

And some details;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-issQW39rg
 
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SamYeager2016
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Wed Jun 28, 2017 12:19 pm

Speeded up video of carrier leaving Rosyth basin courtesy of On The Roger.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Wed Jun 28, 2017 1:49 pm

Couple of questions:
1. In the British system, who takes the decisions on building these ships and sanctioning the budgets? The Admiralty or the Defense Ministry/PMO? Or are they the same thing? Does it have to be separately approved by Parliament or does the Defense Budget cover it?
2. When did the project for these 2 carriers start? looking for sanction date.
3. These 2 are going to be non-nuclear? Curious to know why they chose to do that? Kind of a back step no?
L' Esprit de Mai 68
 
LightningZ71
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:29 pm

I was curious as to why they didn't just reuse those GoalKeeper systems on the QE/PoW as they certainly still have them stored somewhere. But, it appears that they went with the phalanx systems instead (and only a pair at launch?!?!). Does the latest mod for the Phalanx make it more desirable than GoalKeeper? In fact, reviewing the numbers, it looks like the UK has all but retired all of their goalkeeper systems. I am just concerned that their last line of defense for the QE is so.. thin.
 
LightningZ71
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:31 pm

They went conventional for lower operating and maintenance costs. For the increased flexibility, you have to pay a dear penny. The Diesel engines and gas turbines can be "easily" removed and replaced during maintenance cycles. To refuel a nuclear carrier, its a very major operation requiring well over a year of yard time. Also, unless you're France, you believe that nukes are bad and only allow them in submarines where none of the public ever has to see them... ;)
 
GDB
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:46 pm

LightningZ71 wrote:
I was curious as to why they didn't just reuse those GoalKeeper systems on the QE/PoW as they certainly still have them stored somewhere. But, it appears that they went with the phalanx systems instead (and only a pair at launch?!?!). Does the latest mod for the Phalanx make it more desirable than GoalKeeper? In fact, reviewing the numbers, it looks like the UK has all but retired all of their goalkeeper systems. I am just concerned that their last line of defense for the QE is so.. thin.


Additional spaces for Phalanx and the 30mm cannon, can be seen adjacent to the forward island and I think there is another space around the same area on the port side too.
Remember, these are very initial sea trials, the ship is not fully fitted out operationally.

I think we missed out on a CIWS update when the proposal for a sea based version of the Starstreak missile as used by the British Army, as not taken up, around, in the late 1990's.
The system would mount 24 missiles on a non deck penetrating launcher.
Mach 3-4 speed, can be ripple fired, also useful against high speed boats.
This system also could have been fitted to the T-45's and generally to replace both Phalanx and Goalkeeper.
 
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par13del
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:00 pm

I did see one shot where black smoke was being "ejected" from her stacks, were the Russians in any way involved in her design and construction, the smoke did seem familiar to something seen recently sailing through the channel.

As for actual deployment, hopefully by the time this comes around, the RN will be able to deploy her without using up all of the RN's assets leaving nothing for home defense, one sub and at least 4 ships should / would be a credible complement.
 
bhill
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Wed Jun 28, 2017 8:52 pm

Makes for one big carbon footprint.....I wonder how long she can cruise at full speed before refueling?
Carpe Pices
 
angad84
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Wed Jun 28, 2017 10:32 pm

bhill wrote:
Makes for one big carbon footprint.....I wonder how long she can cruise at full speed before refueling?

Cruise or full speed, pick one...
 
GDB
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:41 am

par13del wrote:
I did see one shot where black smoke was being "ejected" from her stacks, were the Russians in any way involved in her design and construction, the smoke did seem familiar to something seen recently sailing through the channel.

As for actual deployment, hopefully by the time this comes around, the RN will be able to deploy her without using up all of the RN's assets leaving nothing for home defense, one sub and at least 4 ships should / would be a credible complement.


That's true, an Astute class sub will be a component, as the primary ASW defence beyond the Merlins of both the carrier and escorts.
As well as adding Tomahawk capability if needed.

As for the smoke, I'm no expert but they are being fired up for the first time, be interesting too how the ship looks later in the trials, then training, then to deployment.
A lot of work to do, this is a complex vessel, a lot of new technology (impressively, despite being three times the size of their predecessors, the CVF's ships crew are not much larger than the Invincible Class, more for the air-group but then it can be much larger too).
 
Kiwirob
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Thu Jun 29, 2017 6:01 am

JetBuddy wrote:
The Royal Navy is set to launch its largest and most powerful warship ever Monday.

The record-breaking, 65,000-tonne HMS Queen Elizabeth will make her maiden voyage from Rosyth, going out to sea for six weeks of tests. The 280-metre carrier and her sister ship, the HMS Prince of Wales, has cost £6 billion and will become the UK’s first aircraft carrier since the HMS Illustrious was decommissioned in 2014.


The media keep on getting this wrong, she's over 70,000 tonne now.

She's a magnificant looking ship.
 
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Thu Jun 29, 2017 6:41 am

Tugger wrote:
Also remember that HMS Queen Elizabeth is not nuclear. The twin island also allowed optimum plant routing for the forward and aft engine rooms, two Rolls Royce diesel engines in each.

She is a beautiful ship!

Tugg


4 Wartsila diesels and 2 Rolls Royce Marine Trent gas turbines.
 
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SamYeager2016
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Thu Jun 29, 2017 12:50 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
:
1. In the British system, who takes the decisions on building these ships and sanctioning the budgets? The Admiralty or the Defense Ministry/PMO? Or are they the same thing? Does it have to be separately approved by Parliament or does the Defense Budget cover it?


I'm not an expert on the subject but my understanding is posted below.

The Ministry of Defence (MOD) will make the decision to build these ships in conjunction with the Treasury although obviously the Royal Navy (Admiralty) raises the desired requirement. Anything this big and expensive will undoubtedly involve the current Prime Minister before it gets the final go ahead. Parliament has to agree the MOD's funds. The funds are split into a number of different categories covering operational and capital expenditure and each of these has to be approved annually by parliament.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:57 pm

SamYeager2016 wrote:
The Ministry of Defence (MOD) will make the decision to build these ships in conjunction with the Treasury although obviously the Royal Navy (Admiralty) raises the desired requirement.

Hmm! So the Admiralty & RN are one & the same?

I thought Admiralty was the board than RAN the navy?
L' Esprit de Mai 68
 
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thewizbizman
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:44 pm

I wonder if its big enough to have C-17's 737's, a320, etc land on it.
 
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JetBuddy
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Thu Jun 29, 2017 2:53 pm

thewizbizman wrote:
I wonder if its big enough to have C-17's 737's, a320, etc land on it.


I don't think that's possible. The C-130 Hercules has landed on USS Forrestal before though, which was about the same size. It's build for F-35B jump jets.
 
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thewizbizman
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Thu Jun 29, 2017 3:06 pm

Ahh, aircraft carriers are not my strong suit.
 
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Slug71
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Thu Jun 29, 2017 3:54 pm

Very nice looking ship. The twin island seem like a waste of space, but I know they have their purpose.
Kinda surprised Australia didn't go in on this for a couple too.

Hope all the trials go well.
 
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Slug71
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Thu Jun 29, 2017 3:57 pm

thewizbizman wrote:
I wonder if its big enough to have C-17's 737's, a320, etc land on it.


:lol: :stirthepot: :duck:
 
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Tugger
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Thu Jun 29, 2017 4:36 pm

Kiwirob wrote:
Tugger wrote:
Also remember that HMS Queen Elizabeth is not nuclear. The twin island also allowed optimum plant routing for the forward and aft engine rooms, two Rolls Royce diesel engines in each.

She is a beautiful ship!

Tugg


4 Wartsila diesels and 2 Rolls Royce Marine Trent gas turbines.

Errk! :banghead:
Thanks for the info Kiwirob. I thought it was odd as I was thinking she was, that she should be gas turbine (I mean most all modern combat ships are). Teach me to trust a quick look at something and go with it.

Tugg
I don’t know that I am unafraid to be myself, but it is hard to be somebody else. -W. Shatner
 
johns624
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:20 am

It's not an aircraft carrier until the RAF lets the FAA have a squadron of F35Bs to operate off of it.
 
johns624
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Fri Jun 30, 2017 1:22 am

Slug71 wrote:

Kinda surprised Australia didn't go in on this for a couple too.

Australia builds ships for a coherent defensive purpose, not as a "make work to keep Scotland in the realm" scheme.
 
Max Q
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Fri Jun 30, 2017 4:35 am

If I put my hand over the 'forward island' it looks okay, still not an attractive ship, reality is, its
an ugly design with that redundant eyesore stuck on the front and the unrefined manner in which
the 'ski jump' is incorporated.


Not impressed.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
Ozair
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Fri Jun 30, 2017 12:30 pm

johns624 wrote:
Australia builds ships for a coherent defensive purpose, not as a "make work to keep Scotland in the realm" scheme.

Do they? We could easily change your statement to "make work to keep a dysfunctional, costly and unnecessary to Australia local industry in business" scheme.

While the LHDs were a reasonable choice, and built overseas, the AWD was clearly the wrong selection. A clear argument could be made that the recent submarine award was also the wrong selection given the poor recent history Australia has of purchasing French/European military equipment before it has finished development. Both AWD and SEA1000 were awarded based on local industrial participation.

Slug71 wrote:

Kinda surprised Australia didn't go in on this for a couple too.

No surprise, the RAN will struggle to crew the existing LHDs (350 or so personnel) let alone the filling the 650 personnel a QE vessel requires before adding in the airwing crew. The QE also does not have a well deck which was the primary requirement for the purchase of the Canberra LHDs.

BawliBooch wrote:
Couple of questions:
1. In the British system, who takes the decisions on building these ships and sanctioning the budgets? The Admiralty or the Defense Ministry/PMO? Or are they the same thing? Does it have to be separately approved by Parliament or does the Defense Budget cover it?
2. When did the project for these 2 carriers start? looking for sanction date.
3. These 2 are going to be non-nuclear? Curious to know why they chose to do that? Kind of a back step no?

1. Major decisions like this are made through the strategic defence reviews. They involve personnel all three services as well as political input and arrive at an overall capability required to meet the UK government's demands of the military for the specified time period.
2. The contract was awarded in 2007 but initial planning began with the SDR in 1997 and tenders were initially requested in 1999.
3. As already stated, the non nuclear decision was made long ago for very valid reasons including overall life cycle costs and we have a couple of existing threads that go into pretty good detail on the pros and cons of the decision.
 
GDB
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Fri Jun 30, 2017 8:24 pm

johns624 wrote:
It's not an aircraft carrier until the RAF lets the FAA have a squadron of F35Bs to operate off of it.


The plan is have have mixed air groups, a FAA squadron (809 NAS) and a RAF one (617 Sqn).
I suspect the RAF one will be the 'surge' unit, as stated before, the CVF's will be multi role but when the emphasis is on strike, that's when the RAF will join the airgroup. Or they might choose to to have a flight from each unit, bringing them up to full squadron standard in that instance.

As for 'make work for Scotland', that yard was about the only one in the UK that could assemble the various 'superblocks', built around the UK not just Scotland, into the completed ship.
It's a bit like saying awarding Trident to the yard in Barrow In Furness is make work for a marginal parliamentary seat but that's the only naval sub yard in the UK.
The last non nuclear one built elsewhere was 30 years ago, that same Liverpool yard built it's last nuclear one in 1971.

As for the CVF, those twin islands are not there to look good, they are logical design, the rear island is the best place to control the deck, the forward the best to control the ship, though there is redundancy both ways.
As others have said, it's also about placement of major equipment, such as the power-plant, as well as being lower RCS. Hard to imagine on such a large ship but is it not the case that the Ford Class are trying lower the RCS too?
 
Max Q
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Sat Jul 01, 2017 5:32 am

How does having two islands lower RCS ?!


It can only reduce it, more structure for radar reflections and a very distinctive structure for
potential foes to program in their weapons database.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
ThePointblank
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Sat Jul 01, 2017 7:36 am

Max Q wrote:
How does having two islands lower RCS ?!


It can only reduce it, more structure for radar reflections and a very distinctive structure for
potential foes to program in their weapons database.

It's either 2 small islands, or one big one. The locations of the islands on the QE class carriers are primarily driven by the locations of the intakes and exhausts of the engine rooms.

Look at other similar carriers that use gas turbines:

INS Vikrant:
Image

HTMS Chakri Naruebet:
Image

Cavour:
Image

Giuseppe Garibaldi:
Image

Juan Carlos I:
Image

USS America (LHA-6):
Image

JS Izumo:
Image

ROKS Dokdo:
Image

Even the Italians are getting in on the twin island configuration; see this draft of the upcoming Italian carrier Trieste:
Image
 
johns624
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Sun Jul 02, 2017 2:12 pm

GDB wrote:
The main air defence will be from escorting Type 45 Destroyers, the RN wanted 12 (though probably starting from a high number expecting it to be whittled down, were promised 8, which they accepted, ended up with 6). Probably two T-45's for a CVF centered task group.

The problem is that only 5 are in operation due to lack of crew and they still haven't figured out when they are going to replace the faulty propulsion systems.
 
GDB
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Sun Jul 02, 2017 10:23 pm

johns624 wrote:
GDB wrote:
The main air defence will be from escorting Type 45 Destroyers, the RN wanted 12 (though probably starting from a high number expecting it to be whittled down, were promised 8, which they accepted, ended up with 6). Probably two T-45's for a CVF centered task group.

The problem is that only 5 are in operation due to lack of crew and they still haven't figured out when they are going to replace the faulty propulsion systems.


During a re-fit, that's what usually happens.
5 at sea or available to deploy should cover a CVF task group, more would be needed for an amphibious task group but a CVF would be the center piece of one of those.
It all depends on the threat level.
Despite those T-45 problems (known of years ago but the usual 'penny wise, pound foolish' from the Treasury prevented rectification sooner), nonetheless they are deployed and have even escorted US carriers at times.
 
iamlucky13
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:44 am

GDB wrote:
Despite those T-45 problems (known of years ago but the usual 'penny wise, pound foolish' from the Treasury prevented rectification sooner), nonetheless they are deployed and have even escorted US carriers at times.


Right. A long standing, productive cooperation. During the Gulf War, HMS Gloucester (Type 42) even shot down a Silkworm fired at USS Missouri.
 
Max Q
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:45 am

Great pictures of some fine looking ships PB.

And they all look good, the extended island structure and blended 'ski jump' on some look far better than
the somewhat bizarre, twin island structure of the QE.
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
GDB
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Tue Jul 04, 2017 9:52 am

Max Q wrote:
Great pictures of some fine looking ships PB.

And they all look good, the extended island structure and blended 'ski jump' on some look far better than
the somewhat bizarre, twin island structure of the QE.


Another thing to consider, the last time the RN planned to have two large carriers, the first to be named HMS Queen Elizabeth, was the CVA-01 project of the early/mid 1960's. Around 55000 tons.
CTOL as you'd expect back then, however aside from budgetary issues, (the Treasury putting a 'cap' on the displacement somehow thinking that would save money, meaning no armour and a host of other compromises), the design when tested in model form found that the large island could make life rather difficult for flight operations.

CVA-01 was cancelled in 1966, the UK could no longer have a substantial presence 'East Of Suez' and maintain it's large NATO commitment. Since East Of Suez was the main rationale for the carriers and that a new class of capital ships, more suited for the Cold War, was emerging. The nuclear submarine, both attack and SSBN's.
 
GDB
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Wed Jul 05, 2017 9:07 pm

 
ThePointblank
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:05 am

Max Q wrote:
Great pictures of some fine looking ships PB.

And they all look good, the extended island structure and blended 'ski jump' on some look far better than
the somewhat bizarre, twin island structure of the QE.

The extended island structure and blended ski jump cuts into deck parking, which reduces air wing size and sortie rates.
 
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moo
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Thu Jul 06, 2017 12:18 am

ThePointblank wrote:
Max Q wrote:
Great pictures of some fine looking ships PB.

And they all look good, the extended island structure and blended 'ski jump' on some look far better than
the somewhat bizarre, twin island structure of the QE.

The extended island structure and blended ski jump cuts into deck parking, which reduces air wing size and sortie rates.


Air wing size was never going to be an issue for these carriers - we would run out of budget to buy the aircraft before we run out of places to park them on the carrier...
 
ThePointblank
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Thu Jul 06, 2017 10:37 pm

moo wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
Max Q wrote:
Great pictures of some fine looking ships PB.

And they all look good, the extended island structure and blended 'ski jump' on some look far better than
the somewhat bizarre, twin island structure of the QE.

The extended island structure and blended ski jump cuts into deck parking, which reduces air wing size and sortie rates.


Air wing size was never going to be an issue for these carriers - we would run out of budget to buy the aircraft before we run out of places to park them on the carrier...

Deck space is important for sortie generation rates; you want the ability to move aircraft around the deck while aircraft are being launched to position them for refueling, rearming, and then re-spotting for launch. More deck space means less likelihood of interfering and crossing active areas of the deck.
 
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moo
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Re: UK launches aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth for sea trials

Fri Jul 07, 2017 1:17 am

ThePointblank wrote:
moo wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
The extended island structure and blended ski jump cuts into deck parking, which reduces air wing size and sortie rates.


Air wing size was never going to be an issue for these carriers - we would run out of budget to buy the aircraft before we run out of places to park them on the carrier...

Deck space is important for sortie generation rates; you want the ability to move aircraft around the deck while aircraft are being launched to position them for refueling, rearming, and then re-spotting for launch. More deck space means less likelihood of interfering and crossing active areas of the deck.


As I said, we would run out of budget before that becomes an issue.

The carriers will only ever see a maximum of 40 aircraft (fixed wing and rotary) unless something very unusual happens - the expected normal aircraft load is 24 F-35s and 5 helicopters, which is a small increase on the typical aircraft load carried by the Invincible-class carriers (22 aircraft, fixed wing and rotary) while the carrier itself has a deck space of nearly triple (yes, the F-35 is larger, but not that much larger).

We only have 14 F-35s on order, with an "agreement" for 42 in total - 138 were originally planned, but the UK will never see that number in operation. We may see another order in 15 years as replacement, but not realistically in any way is the RAF/RN going to operate more than 42 aircraft.

I think your concerns are baseless, tbh.

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