bmacleod wrote:

At best how many years could Canada RCAF get out of the RAAF F-18s?

F-35 Big Winner In Boeing-Bombardier Clash
Boeing-Bombardier spat could drive Ottawa straight to Lockheed Martin
Dec 8, 2017 Lara Seligman | Aviation Week & Space Technology

Lockheed Martin’s F-35 appears to be the real winner in the fallout from Boeing’s rift with Canada over Bombardier’s C Series passenger jetliner. Canada’s liberal government has reportedly decided to scrap its planned $5.2 billion purchase of new F/A-18 E/F Super Hornets as an interim solution to replacing its aging fleet of older-model Hornets. Instead, the Royal Canadian Air Force would buy earlier-generation Hornets from Australia as a short-term measure. The ...

Ozair wrote:

bmacleod wrote:

At best how many years could Canada RCAF get out of the RAAF F-18s?

It really depends on how many jets they acquire and even down to which ones they acquire. The RAAF classic Hornet fleet has some examples with more flight hours than most and the fleet has raked up quite a bit of operational time since 2014. The question is which ones will the RAAF provide to the Canadians and it must be remembered the RAAF aren't retiring the bulk of their fleet until early 2022. You then need to consider how many hours a year the Canadians want to fly and whether they retire any Canadian Hornets due to high hour numbers and replace these with RAAF jets.

cumulushumilis wrote:

I have this vision of a fleet of "Frankenhornets" Been done before:

http://www.airforcesmonthly.com/2009/12/07/frankenhornet-flies/

Low time parts from RAAF Hornets coupled with a few mashed parts from RCAF Hornets such as the Avionics, etc. And don't forget the signature creepy spotlight. Add in a little speed tape, Beemans gum and you have a first rate "Frankenfleet" ready for the 2020s.

cumulushumilis wrote:

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/boeing-reacts-to-canadas-decision-to-buy-used-australian-f-18s

Boeing's response to the Australian purchase.

They are deluded into thinking the Super Hornet is in the running for the CF-18 replacement by playing up the multi engine aspect of the interim solution.

cumulushumilis wrote:

They are deluded into thinking the Super Hornet is in the running for the CF-18 replacement by playing up the multi engine aspect of the interim solution.

LockheedBBD wrote:

cumulushumilis wrote:

They are deluded into thinking the Super Hornet is in the running for the CF-18 replacement by playing up the multi engine aspect of the interim solution.

Boeing is correct, Canada should be buying multi-engined fighters........like the Dassault Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon.

bmacleod wrote:

Highly likely they (Trudeau government) will eventually have to admit Harper's Conservatives made the right choice and stick with the F-35 - but will wait after the 2019 election to make the announcement.

bmacleod wrote:

Highly likely they (Trudeau government) will eventually have to admit Harper's Conservatives made the right choice and stick with the F-35 - but will wait after the 2019 election to make the announcement.

CBC wrote:

Multiple government and industry sources say what the public will see is the first step "in a long road" toward the issuing of a formal tender in early 2019 and the eventual acquisition of brand new warplanes by the mid-2020s.

LockheedBBD wrote:

Boeing is correct, Canada should be buying multi-engined fighters........like the Dassault Rafale and Eurofighter Typhoon.

Through this competition, the Government of Canada will ensure it gets the right aircraft at the right price, and maximizes economic benefits for Canadians. The government will ensure that the Canadian aerospace and defence industries and manufacturers are consulted and engaged in this process.

Proposals will be rigorously assessed on cost, technical requirements and industrial, technological and economic benefits. As it is important to do business with trusted partners, the evaluation of bids will also include an assessment of bidders’ impact on Canada’s economic interests.

When bids are assessed, any bidder responsible for harm to Canada’s economic interests will be at a distinct disadvantage. This new assessment, as well as guidelines for its application as an ongoing procurement tool, will be developed through appropriate consultations.

queb wrote:

After the 18 Super Hornet cancellation, Boeing chances to win the fleet replacement bid are very low:
http://www.rcaf-arc.forces.gc.ca/en/new ... d/jafhm599

Ozair wrote:

[I haven’t seen any pricing on acquiring the RAAF Hornets yet, will be interesting to see what value is attached to them by Australia and Canada.

ExMilitaryEng wrote:

CDN$500M has been put aside by the Feds. The actual amount will be determined later, pending further detailed negotiations (including amount of spare parts, which airframe is actually acquired)

ExMilitaryEng wrote:

The article also mentions the following: "Transfers to a third party of military equipment originally provided via foreign military sales require U.S. authorization"

ExMilitaryEng wrote:

Well, if the US rejects the transaction, that would be a good pretext for Canada to temporally suspend those useless NATO air defense deployments. That would save airframe stress/hours big time and extend our legacy Hornets life a few more years... (We can support NATO way more efficiently by providing more land troops in the Baltics...)

ExMilitaryEng wrote:

Its my undestanding that our legacy Hornets are more hours limited while the Aussies ones not as much, but got more corrosion problems.

Hope L3 MAS in Mirabel find the optimal way to salvage the good parts somehow and can ensure an overall life extension of sufficient airframes.

ExMilitaryEng wrote:

I believe it could be any of both approaches. Each airframe will be assessed (it's probably being done now) and the optimal/cheapest approach will be retained for each frame.

Aussie Hornets don't have exactly the same avionics, equipment, radios and modifications. We would need to bring those a bit closer to "RCAF standards" if I can say (basically swapping the CF18 eqpt into the Aussie Hornet). There is a cost to that.

That's why it could be cheaper, by example, to just swap the wings for one particular frame. No other eqpt upgrade would then be needed. That particular Aussie Hornet become then a part donnor.

Each frame might be different.

The exact parts swapping / or eqpt upgrade plan will be drafted for each frame, before the contract is signed. (it will also dictate which frame is procured).

(Pls note that my career was in the army, not the Air Force. Some of the infos I got are from my L3 MAS buddies. I would be happy to be corrected if need be)

"We received a formal offer from the government of Australia and we intend to pursue it," Canadian Defense Minister Harjit Sajjan said at a news conference.

Faro wrote:

It looks like the deal wiith Australia is well and truly done:

Faro

Minister for Defence, Senator the Hon Marise Payne, today announced the Government has agreed to the sale of 18 Royal Australian Air Force F/A-18 A/B Classic Hornets to the Government of Canada.

The offer follows an expression of interest from the Canadian Government received in September. The sale of the aircraft and associated spares remains subject to final negotiations and Country of Origin export approvals.

Defence plans to withdraw its fleet of F/A-18A/B Classic Hornets from service by 2022, which will be progressively replaced by the F-35A Joint Strike Fighter, Australia's new fifth-generation air combat capability.

Minister Payne spoke with her Canadian counterpart, Minister for National Defence Harjit Sajjan, to welcome the sale.

“Australia greatly values our longstanding and broad bilateral defence relationship with Canada, and this decision is another example of our close and strong partnership,” Minister Payne said.

“The aircraft will supplement Canada’s existing fleet as it develops and implements its plan to replace the Royal Canadian Air Force fighter jet fleet.

Transfer of the first two aircraft is expected to occur from the first half of 2019, in line with the current plan to transition to the Joint Strike Fighter.

Australia’s first two Joint Strike Fighters are expected to arrive in Australia at the end of 2018.

columba wrote:

Wild thought since Airbus is involved with Bombardier now, Canada buys some Eurofighters as an interim and joins Germany and France in their new fighter study.....if I recall correctly Canada was in the early stages also involved in the F104 replacement group which later led to the development of the Tornado.

In February, Ottawa requested seven examples for use in non-flying activities such as software testing, static training, and spares, says Australia’s Department of Defence.

The deal is subject to US export controls. If approved, it will bring to 25 the number of former RAAF Hornets sold to Ottawa. Should export approvals be received, negotiations would determine delivery timings.
In December 2017, Canberra confirmed that it will sell Ottawa 18 F/A-18 A/B Hornets for an undisclosed sum.

The first two “classic” Hornets will be delivered to Canada in 2019, at which point the Royal Australian Air Force’s transition to the Lockheed Martin F-35 will be well underway.

The Royal Canadian Air Force requires airframes to fill a capability gap during a pending process to obtain 88 new combat aircraft to replace its 85 Boeing CF-18 A/B fighters.

In February 2018, Ottawa announced that five bidders – Boeing, Dassault, Eurofighter, Lockheed Martin, and Saab – are eligible to replace the CF-18s.

Canada’s previous Harper government had selected the F-35 to replace the CF-18 fleet in 2009, but in 2015 the incoming Trudeau government cancelled this. Initially, the RCAF announced plans to buy 24 F/A-18E/Fs as an interim solution, then select a permanent CF-18 replacement in the early 2020s.

The Boeing deal fell through, however, amid Boeing’s (ultimately unsuccessful) trade complaint with the US Commerce Department against Canadian aircraft manufacturer Bombardier over allegedly unfair pricing on a sale of CSeries aircraft to Delta Air Lines. The Canadian government reacted strongly against Boeing, cancelling the interim fighter deal.

The RAAF operates 55 single seat F/A-18As and 16 two-seat F/A-18Bs that were acquired in the 1980s. This fleet will be retired by 2022 in favour of the F-35A, of which Canberra has committed to 72 examples.

"The U.S. government has approved Canada’s purchase of used F-18 fighter jets from Australia, paving the way for the deal to be completed by the end of the year. The sign-off from the Americans was needed because the aircraft were built in the U.S. with U.S. technology.

Dan Le Bouthillier of the Department of National Defence said Friday negotiations with Australia over the sale of the 25 used fighter jets is on-going. “Should all negotiations and approvals move forward as planned, aircraft would start arriving in Canada in 2019, and the project remains on track to achieve this milestone,” he said. “The delivery plan, including mode of delivery, will be finalized once negotiations are complete and the aircraft being purchased are selected.”...

...The exact cost of purchasing the 25 aircraft, along with weapons and other equipment, is not yet known, Procurement Minister Carla Qualtrough pointed out earlier this year. The Liberal government has set aside up to $500 million for the project....

...Finn [Department of National Defence’s assistant deputy minister of materiel] indicated the DND wants to have the deal in place by the end of this year. “The idea of firming this up in the fall of 2018 was for the start of delivery of the two first aircraft to be next summer, and then quickly beyond it,” he added.

The federal government has confirmed the Australian aircraft will be operating alongside the RCAF’s other CF-18s at Bagotville, Que., and Cold Lake, Alta. “The aircraft will be employed at 3 Wing Bagotville and 4 Wing Cold Lake,” a government official noted. “DND is currently reviewing infrastructure requirements to accommodate the additional aircraft. Any modifications are expected to be minimal as the supplemental jets are of similar age and design to the CF-18.”…"

The Canadian government has completed a deal to purchase Australia's old F-18 fighter jets and the first of the 25 used jets should arrive this spring, the Department of National Defence confirms.

The Trudeau government announced back in 2017 that it would buy 18 used Australian F-18s as an interim measure to bolster the air force until the entire Canadian fleet of CF-18s is replaced, beginning in the mid-2020s.

The other seven Australian jets it bought will be used for testing and spare parts.

The Australians had to get permission from the U.S. to sell the planes because they were manufactured in the States, but officials with Defence said the deal between Canada and Australia was finalized in November.

ThePointblank wrote:

First two ex-RAAF Hornets have arrived in Canada:

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-nat ... -lake.html





Looks like tail numbers A21-53 and A21-55.

A quick picture overview of the mods:



Combat Camera has the following videos of their arrival and handover:

http://www.combatcamera.ca/coldlakeimag ... 41-B01.mp4

http://www.combatcamera.ca/coldlakeimag ... 41-B01.mp4

http://www.combatcamera.ca/coldlakeimag ... 41-B02.mp4

This report provides an independent estimate of the impact of the costs of Canada’s procurement of 18 Australian F/A-18 aircraft on the federal budget. This estimate is for a total life cycle cost, thus taking into consideration the total cost of project development, acquisition, operations and sustainment, and disposal of the additional aircraft.

The findings of this report are as follows: the risk-adjusted life cycle cost estimate of the Interim Fighter Capability Project is approximately $1.09 billion, with a low-end estimate of $1.08 billion and a high-end estimate of $1.15 billion. Breaking this down into the project’s phases, PBO has estimated a Development phase cost of $12.5 million, an Acquisition phase cost of $311.5 million, an Operations and Sustainment phase cost of $756.5 million, and a Disposal phase cost of $11 million.

The total estimated life cycle cost of 1.09 billion is some 22% higher than the Department of National Defence (DND) estimate. This is largely driven by costs in the operations and sustainment phase, where the PBO has estimated life extension and upgrade costs that are approximately $120M higher than DND’s.

ThePointblank wrote:

This screen shot of a Facebook rant has been making the rounds on various military forums regarding the

I can say I would not disagree with this person.

texl1649 wrote:

This sure does have the stench, regardless of any political perspectives, of a miserable attempt to expensively kick the can down the road. I can't remember another 1st world air force ever purchasing used tac aircraft and trying to outfit them for substantially front line service before. Sure, maybe in the lend-lease era (WW2)...

Canada is buying 25 used F-18s from Australia, with 18 of those to be flown and seven to be either stripped down for parts or used for testing. The aircraft to be flown will augment the existing RCAF CF-18 fleet until a new generation fighter jet can be purchased.

But Pat Finn, the Department of National Defence’s Assistant Deputy Minister for Materiel, said there may be no need for the seven F-18s. “The seven, whether or not we actually take them at this point, we’re still looking at that,” Finn recently told the Commons defence committee. “What we’re actually finding is the number of spares that they’ve been able to provide to us is more than adequate. Rather than take aircraft apart and go through that cost, we’re taking the spares. We may not, in fact, at this point look at any of the seven.”

It is unclear whether there will be a reduction in the cost of the purchase or the overall project cost if the seven airframes are not acquired.

The first two fighter jets purchased from Australia are now operational and plans are underway to upgrade those and other jets to keep the country’s CF-18 fleet in the air until 2032.

The upgrade program, which will include improvements to navigation systems, communications and other systems, and eventually a new series of weapons and other combat enhancements for a smaller number of planes, could cost up to $1.5 billion, said Brig.-Gen. Todd Balfe, the Canadian military’s fighter capability special advisor.

The first phase involving navigation and communications improvements will allow 94 fighter jets , which include the 18 used planes from Australia, to meet new regulations to fly in civilian airspace. New weapons and other changes to boost combat capability will be added later to a smaller number of jets as the life of the CF-18 fleet is stretched out to 2032.

The jets are expected to keep flying to deal with any gap as the Royal Canadian Air Forces receives 88 new generation fighters at a cost of $19 billion.

...

Ozair wrote:

The first two RAAF jets handed over are now flying in RCAF colours with more jets expected and the whole classic Hornet fleet to undergo a 1.5 billion upgrade program to keep them capable to 2032.

The jets are expected to keep flying to deal with any gap as the Royal Canadian Air Forces receives 88 new generation fighters at a cost of $19 billion.

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/fi ... et-to-2032

art wrote:

Ozair wrote:

The first two RAAF jets handed over are now flying in RCAF colours with more jets expected and the whole classic Hornet fleet to undergo a 1.5 billion upgrade program to keep them capable to 2032.

The jets are expected to keep flying to deal with any gap as the Royal Canadian Air Forces receives 88 new generation fighters at a cost of $19 billion.

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/fi ... et-to-2032

Is the $19 billion figure some kind of guess? I don't see how a cost can be given if the type has not been selected.

art wrote:

Ozair wrote:

The first two RAAF jets handed over are now flying in RCAF colours with more jets expected and the whole classic Hornet fleet to undergo a 1.5 billion upgrade program to keep them capable to 2032.

The jets are expected to keep flying to deal with any gap as the Royal Canadian Air Forces receives 88 new generation fighters at a cost of $19 billion.

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/fi ... et-to-2032

Is the $19 billion figure some kind of guess? I don't see how a cost can be given if the type has not been selected.