ThePointblank
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Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Tue Jul 11, 2017 4:06 am

Dutchy wrote:
angad84 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
I see a combination of 20-25 PC-21 and 18 Saab JAS39 E/F Gripen in Austria's future.

Sounds about right. They might even be prime contenders for some of the C/D jets that Saab insists still have a market.


Yup or even A/B models if there are some left in storage. They only need them to police the skies. But with the 2020 time frame in mind, I would say that new build E/F are most likely.

Or, KAI F/A-50's... more than sufficient for what the Austrians want, and cheap enough to boot to operate as both a trainer and as an air policing aircraft. The Philippines bought 12 for about $34 million each. More then enough performance to patrol Austria's skies, and the aircraft can double as a jet trainer for pilots.
 
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seahawk
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Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Tue Jul 11, 2017 6:47 am

It is set up for Gripens. There is a pilot training agreement with the Czech republic already signed and there suddenly is a desire for medium range AAMs, optical sensors and a full suit of defensive aid systems. In the original study the EF is described as unsuitable because it lacks the optical sensors and the defensive aids systems, which Austria did intentionally not order when they ordered the EF. This deal is at least as suspicious as the EF decision.

The whole study is full of stupid lies. Like that Austria would be the only customer that would fly Typhoons Tranche 1 - which is simply wrong as all other partner nations want to keep on flying the Tranche 1 frames, Austria would only be the only user still using standard Block2. The cost of upgrading the Typhoons to the desired standard is based on upgrading them further than Block 5, which is also strange, as British Block 5s have all the systems Austria desires and Austrian frames could be up-graded with ease. And the list goes on, just like 18 planes are seen as the minimum while the EF fleet is at 15 and so too small. However the Brits want to retire a number of T1 in the next years, so 3 frames could be purchased from there or from Spain and Italy who also have surplus T1s.
 
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Dutchy
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Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Tue Jul 11, 2017 9:53 am

So is it set up for new build Gripens, so the E/F model, or for the C/D model?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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seahawk
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Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:05 am

Considering the delivery time and costs given, my bet would be on used C/Ds.
 
Ozair
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Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Tue Jul 11, 2017 10:32 pm

seahawk wrote:
The whole study is full of stupid lies. Like that Austria would be the only customer that would fly Typhoons Tranche 1 - which is simply wrong as all other partner nations want to keep on flying the Tranche 1 frames, Austria would only be the only user still using standard Block2. The cost of upgrading the Typhoons to the desired standard is based on upgrading them further than Block 5, which is also strange, as British Block 5s have all the systems Austria desires and Austrian frames could be up-graded with ease. And the list goes on, just like 18 planes are seen as the minimum while the EF fleet is at 15 and so too small. However the Brits want to retire a number of T1 in the next years, so 3 frames could be purchased from there or from Spain and Italy who also have surplus T1s.

Agree completely. Way too many significant issues that seem to be glossed over, as well as some very suspect financial rationalization.
 
Planeflyer
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Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Wed Jul 12, 2017 3:15 am

Ok, seems Austria is a special case. Given the really limited needs is there a drone that could work?
 
tommy1808
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Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Wed Jul 12, 2017 8:48 am

Planeflyer wrote:
Ok, seems Austria is a special case. Given the really limited needs is there a drone that could work?


the supply side of the market for armed supersonic drones with optical and radar sensors is somewhat limited.

best regards
Thomas
This Singature is a safe space......
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Wed Jul 12, 2017 6:46 pm

ThePointblank wrote:
Or, KAI F/A-50's... more than sufficient for what the Austrians want, and cheap enough to boot to operate as both a trainer and as an air policing aircraft. The Philippines bought 12 for about $34 million each.

Not to sidetrack the thread -- rumors are that the PAF wants more. But a faction within the organization is adamant that the country needs a true MRF given current geopolitical situation. Considering acquisition & operations costs and that it will serve for 40 years at least - point to the Gripen E/F as the most logical option. Still, there are those who say it's too close to the FA-50 in capability and want something more substantial. The next step up are Vipers although per reports, new copies off the U.S. line would cost both arms and legs (loaded). An economical Indian F-16 could be a viable solution but the need for LM to guarantee a licensee's aircraft might jeopardize the joint venture. Perhaps Austria would be willing to part with their EFs at a bargain price to offset the huge O&M and upgrade costs? Those could give the PAF the big stick they were after in the short term, being relatively young. Would spare parts be a problem? :scratchchin:
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Thu Jul 13, 2017 7:10 am

Devilfish wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
Or, KAI F/A-50's... more than sufficient for what the Austrians want, and cheap enough to boot to operate as both a trainer and as an air policing aircraft. The Philippines bought 12 for about $34 million each.

Not to sidetrack the thread -- rumors are that the PAF wants more. But a faction within the organization is adamant that the country needs a true MRF given current geopolitical situation. Considering acquisition & operations costs and that it will serve for 40 years at least - point to the Gripen E/F as the most logical option. Still, there are those who say it's too close to the FA-50 in capability and want something more substantial. The next step up are Vipers although per reports, new copies off the U.S. line would cost both arms and legs (loaded). An economical Indian F-16 could be a viable solution but the need for LM to guarantee a licensee's aircraft might jeopardize the joint venture. Perhaps Austria would be willing to part with their EFs at a bargain price to offset the huge O&M and upgrade costs? Those could give the PAF the big stick they were after in the short term, being relatively young. Would spare parts be a problem? :scratchchin:

Used F-16's are available. Lots to be had from a variety of sources, and lots of options for modernization.

I believe the F/A-50 is capable of more; some of it's potential is being held back because of the agreement LM and KAI had when they developed the aircraft. The EL/M-2032 is capable of guiding the Israeli Derby BVR missile; that could be a growth option for the type.
 
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Devilfish
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Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Thu Jul 13, 2017 3:56 pm

ThePointblank wrote:
Used F-16's are available. Lots to be had from a variety of sources, and lots of options for modernization.

True. Though it may end up costing as much if not more than brand-new Gripens and the air force will still be stuck with old, second-hand fighters. The only hope is if the U.S. would offer the remaining undelivered Block 50 F-16s for Pak through FMS like it did A/B models before.

ThePointblank wrote:
I believe the F/A-50 is capable of more; some of it's potential is being held back because of the agreement LM and KAI had when they developed the aircraft. The EL/M-2032 is capable of guiding the Israeli Derby BVR missile; that could be a growth option for the type.

And there lies the difficulty. The Gripen has the edge in this regard as both single and two seat variants are open for development...with at least the Brazilian order and other campaigns to insure it wouldn't be an orphan fleet. Maybe the PAF can leverage its familiarity with Korean aircraft when the KF_X becomes real?...but it's still a long time away yet.

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... shape.html


I'm not really advocating for the country to jump into operating expensive, complex fighters now. Merely contrasting the predicaments both air forces find themselves in. On one hand a relatively well-off country with a well-trained, decently-paid military, modern assets and no grave threats. On the other, an economic laggard with as yet not-too-proficient fighter pilot pool, a dozen LIFTs and struggling to keep its territory intact. To illustrate.....

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articl ... ident.html

APKWS might have been the better (costlier?) weapon for the above seeing it has been tested on an F-16, but doubtful it would be released for integration on the FA-50.


Spiel over.....back to the Austrian Typhoons. :smile:
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
Ozair
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Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Thu Dec 20, 2018 1:27 am

The Austrian Eurofighter decision continues to drag on with the option continuing on whether to upgrade or acquire a whole new aircraft. There have been numerous figures put out for the cost to upgrade the Tranche One aircraft and I have seen variances from tens of millions of dollars to the low billion level. I’d expect the reality is probably in the low hundreds of millions depending upon what capability enhancements they are seeking.

Austria delays decision on whether to scrap Eurofighter jets
Austria will not decide whether to scrap its fleet of Eurofighter jets until a parliamentary inquiry into their purchase wraps up and there is clarity over a judicial dispute related to the deal, the country's leader said on Wednesday.
Chancellor Sebastian Kurz's comments suggest it will be months or longer before the government reaches a decision that it had said it would announce this year.
Newspaper Die Presse reported last week the coalition government was split over whether to get rid of the jets, with Kurz's conservatives favouring keeping them and the far-right Freedom Party, which controls the Defence Ministry, taking the opposite view. The dispute is delaying a decision, it added.
"It is important to reach a decision when you are able to," Kurz told a news conference after a weekly cabinet meeting, when asked about a possible delay.
Austria is locked in a legal battle with planemaker Airbus and the Eurofighter consortium, which also includes BAE Systems and Italy's Leonardo.
Vienna accuses them of fraud and wilful deception in connection with its US$2 billion Eurofighter order in 2003. They deny Austria's allegations.
"We need clarity on whether anyone has done anything wrong, on whether partners currently being worked with have done anything wrong and when there is clarity on this then we will be able to reach further decisions," Kurz said, referring to the legal dispute and an ongoing parliamentary inquiry.

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/wo ... s-11025836

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