User avatar
PeterB
Topic Author
Posts: 77
Joined: Fri Aug 02, 2013 1:07 pm

Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Tue May 09, 2017 8:34 am

Austria is considering to get rid of the Eurofighter Typhoons. The reasons are the maintenance costs and the upcoming upgrade costs (all Typhoons are of Trache 1). As the Saab 105 will be retired by 2020 they soon need a replacement.

According to the article (only in german, sorry) 19 models are potential replacements. Among these: F-16, Saab Gripen and Dassault Rafale.


http://diepresse.com/home/innenpolitik/ ... tor=CS1-15


Does anybody know what the other options are? Maybe even some Russian models (Suchoi, MiG)?
Does it make much sense to replace the Typhoon with the F-16 or Rafale? I assume costs are similar, right?

Best,
Peter
 
User avatar
ITMercure
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:49 am

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Tue May 09, 2017 9:08 am

It would certainly cost far less to upgrade them, as has been done in the past for other nations. But let's not forget that this Austrian Eurofighter 'problem' is mainly a political one (or used for political purposes).
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 5172
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Tue May 09, 2017 10:13 am

FA-50s would be the most sensible option. Considering that the Austrian Eurofighters only carry short range IR missiles anyway. Replacing the Eurofighters with something like Rafale is just a waste of money and even Grippens are hardly worth the effort and they also need up-grades every 10-15 years.
 
Oroka
Posts: 1107
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:37 am

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Tue May 09, 2017 12:17 pm

last I cared to look the RAF was retiring 50+ Trance 1 Typhoons because it would be too expensive to upgrade to the modern standard... so Austria has a point. Expensive to operate + expensive to upgrade. Yes, it would be cheaper to upgrade, but down the road it will be still expensive to operate.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 5172
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Tue May 09, 2017 12:45 pm

24 of British Tranche 1 will stay in service for an air policing / air defence role up until 2040.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 2833
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Tue May 09, 2017 2:24 pm

Austria's defense budget is 0,9% of GNP. Logical everything is way too expensive. Would be a waste of money not to upgrade the 15 Eurofighters and perhaps get a replacement for the Saab 105o, how about the PC-21.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
Posts: 5996
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Tue May 09, 2017 4:23 pm

seahawk wrote:
FA-50s would be the most sensible option. .


Exactly, as Austria has no plans to defend it's airspace, all.they need is something to get eyes up and able to go supersonic if required. They won't buy enough ammunition for any attack anyways, so looking at lowest TCO is the right way to go. Never understood why they went with the Typhoon.

Dutchy wrote:
Austria's defense budget is 0,9% of GNP. Logical everything is way too expensive. Would be a waste of money not to upgrade the 15 Eurofighters and perhaps get a replacement for the Saab 105o, how about the PC-21.


Upgrading the EF only makes sense in the total remaining lifetime costs are lower.than any other viable option. Their EF are fairly castrated.
The PC-21 makes sense as a trainer, but as a replacement they'd need something with some CAS/COIN abilities, the current once are wired for and tested, but not equipped with, even Sidewinders.

Best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
Oroka
Posts: 1107
Joined: Sat Dec 09, 2006 4:37 am

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Wed May 10, 2017 1:02 am

seahawk wrote:
24 of British Tranche 1 will stay in service for an air policing / air defence role up until 2040.


So they are only retiring 31 of the Tranche 1 Typhoons? :roll:
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 5172
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Wed May 10, 2017 4:53 am

Afaik they will be kept as a spare source for the 24 flying. 24 are too little anyway for 2 squadrons, so around 30 will probably remain in the active fleet pool.
 
User avatar
Aesma
Posts: 8964
Joined: Sat Nov 14, 2009 6:14 am

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Fri May 12, 2017 2:55 pm

Dutchy wrote:
Austria's defense budget is 0,9% of GNP.


My thoughts exactly. We will see if that's still politically feasible in the next few years.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
User avatar
Devilfish
Posts: 5615
Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:52 am

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Sat May 13, 2017 4:31 am

seahawk wrote:
FA-50s would be the most sensible option. Considering that the Austrian Eurofighters only carry short range IR missiles anyway.

Alternatively, they could look at the M-346 FT variant.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... fa-434448/

Image
http://www.ainonline.com/sites/default/ ... k=Q_FUYJoT


tommy1808 wrote:
The PC-21 makes sense as a trainer, but as a replacement they'd need something with some CAS/COIN abilities, the current once are wired for and tested, but not equipped with, even Sidewinders.

Perhaps they might find one of these (or both) suitable.....

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articl ... ri-437189/
"Everyone is entitled to my opinion." - Garfield
 
VSMUT
Posts: 1008
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Sat May 13, 2017 2:21 pm

It would be stupid to go for anything other than keeping the existing fleet of Typhoons operational. The savings from replacing the Typhoon with something else will never be big enough to cover the combined cost of buying a fleet new jets.

tommy1808 wrote:
The PC-21 makes sense as a trainer, but as a replacement they'd need something with some CAS/COIN abilities, the current once are wired for and tested, but not equipped with, even Sidewinders.


Why does Austria even need a CAS/COIN plane? Take a look at a map, they are surrounded by friendly, peaceful and militarily castrated nations! Austria will never need it! They aren't even (and can never be) members of NATO, and are severely limited by the post-WWII treaties.
 
Slug71
Posts: 224
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:08 am

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Sat May 13, 2017 5:31 pm

I'd imagine the Gripen could be a good contender here.
 
User avatar
Spiderguy252
Posts: 735
Joined: Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:58 am

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Mon May 15, 2017 10:46 am

delete
Vahroone
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 5172
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Mon May 15, 2017 10:50 am

What role in the invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan exactly?
 
agill
Posts: 976
Joined: Tue Feb 03, 2004 4:49 am

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:37 am

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/articles-view/release/3/185108/gripen-favored-to-replace-austrian-eurofighters.html

Seems like there might be some movement in Austria next week
"Months ago, Doskozil set up a 30-man expert committee to look for alternative combat aircraft. The result, which is being strictly kept under wraps by the military, is to be announced next Friday. "
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 2833
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:07 am

From the article: There remains the exciting question: what will happen to the unloved Eurofighters? A resale is considered legally difficult, but conceivable, by defense experts. Or there could be a buyer for the machines.

That would be my question as well, it is a large part of the equation, if they can't be sold, then there is no case to replace them.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
Posts: 5996
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Fri Jul 07, 2017 8:35 am

Dutchy wrote:
That would be my question as well, it is a large part of the equation, if they can't be sold, then there is no case to replace them.


too bad that http://www.airpower.at/ isn´t maintained anymore..

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
YIMBY
Posts: 201
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:32 pm

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Fri Jul 07, 2017 6:50 pm

This issue seems to be political, not least because of some alleged corruption in Eurofighter deal. While keeping the Typhoons may make most sense economically, Gripen E/F may be the smoothest and cheapest way to safe their faces. As Austria has few military threads, almost anything goes.

Unless they need trainers to complete the surveillance and air defence, they could buy training from other countries that have more air space for that than the very crowded Austria.
 
Planeflyer
Posts: 586
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:49 am

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Fri Jul 07, 2017 7:25 pm

Given the friendly neighbors why did they buy EF in the first place?
 
VSMUT
Posts: 1008
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:57 pm

YIMBY wrote:
Unless they need trainers to complete the surveillance and air defence, they could buy training from other countries that have more air space for that than the very crowded Austria.


Austria may be prevented from doing that due to their neutrality status.
 
Planeflyer
Posts: 586
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:49 am

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Fri Jul 07, 2017 11:56 pm

Given the friendly neighbors why did they buy EF in the first place?
 
User avatar
SAS A340
Posts: 766
Joined: Fri Jul 28, 2000 5:59 am

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Sat Jul 08, 2017 3:05 am

Austria should buy 20-25 Gripen c/d and do the necessary flight training here in Sweden and ignore possible trainers altogether.
It's not what u do,it's how u do it!
 
ThePointblank
Posts: 2798
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:39 pm

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Sat Jul 08, 2017 4:47 am

SAS A340 wrote:
Austria should buy 20-25 Gripen c/d and do the necessary flight training here in Sweden and ignore possible trainers altogether.

Austria doesn't have the pilots to fly 20-25 Gripen's... it was reported back in 2014 that the Austrians only had a dozen pilots for their 15 Eurofighters...

And given Austria's location and neutrality status, Gripens would also be total overkill. Better to get something like a supersonic armed trainer, like the KAI T-50, or the Alenia M-346, or even if the Saab-Boeing trainer can be armed as well.
 
YIMBY
Posts: 201
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:32 pm

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Sat Jul 08, 2017 8:05 am

VSMUT wrote:
YIMBY wrote:
Unless they need trainers to complete the surveillance and air defence, they could buy training from other countries that have more air space for that than the very crowded Austria.


Austria may be prevented from doing that due to their neutrality status.


What prevents that? Do they have some paragraph in the constitution or is it just a tradition? They are a member of EU so they are not very neutral. I think international constraints after WW2 have been expired - at least every other country has unilaterally withdrawn from such constraints.

If they cannot ally with Nato, there are neutral countries like Sweden and Finland, both of which might be very happy to offer their services. Sweden is more natural if they buy fighters from Sweden, otherwise Finland would be more platform neutral (i.e. would not influence that much for fighter choice), if their training system can be matched with Austrian system. In the latter case they would need the double seated version of the fighters, unless they choose the same fighter as Finland which is very unlikely.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 1008
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Sat Jul 08, 2017 11:00 pm

YIMBY wrote:
What prevents that? Do they have some paragraph in the constitution or is it just a tradition?


Their own constitution. It was part of the deal with the USSR (and now Russia) and the US when they regained full independence in 1955. It is also the reason why they can't use guided weapons on their fighters, with the exception of the second-hand AIM-9s which were granted in 1993 due to incursions by Yugoslav aircraft.
 
User avatar
ITMercure
Posts: 32
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2017 11:49 am

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Sun Jul 09, 2017 10:14 am

Then what's the use of a Typhoon or Gripen if you can't load it with missiles? Better buy a binch of super Tucano...
 
VSMUT
Posts: 1008
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:20 pm

ITMercure wrote:
Then what's the use of a Typhoon or Gripen if you can't load it with missiles? Better buy a binch of super Tucano...


Air policing/interception of airliners, can't do that with a Super Tucano. But going for expensive modern fighters has always been foolish of them, they are surrounded by friendly EU member countries and Switzerland, none of whom have a military worth mentioning.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 2833
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Sun Jul 09, 2017 12:28 pm

VSMUT wrote:
ITMercure wrote:
Then what's the use of a Typhoon or Gripen if you can't load it with missiles? Better buy a binch of super Tucano...


Air policing/interception of airliners, can't do that with a Super Tucano. But going for expensive modern fighters has always been foolish of them, they are surrounded by friendly EU member countries and Switzerland, none of whom have a military worth mentioning.


Gripen would have been perfect for them. You still need supersonic capability to climb to 35k feet and intercept an airliner at cruise speed. But second hand Gripen A/B would just have been fine.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 15649
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:15 pm

FlightGlobal: Austria to retire Eurofighter Typhoons from 2020 doesn't say what happens to the EFs but does talk to what they need in the future:

At present, Austria conducts airspace policing missions with the Typhoons, as well as an aged fleet of 17 Saab 105OEs. These, it says, will require replacement from 2020.

By aligning the out-of-service dates, Vienna will be able to move to a one-type fleet of 15 single- and three twin-seat aircraft, it says.


And:

The report concludes that the air force requires a new fleet of supersonic fighters, able to operate round the clock, and equipped with guided missiles and an advanced self-defence system.


And:

As the Saab 105OEs are also used for training missions, the report also signals Austria’s possible intention of replacing its fleet of Pilatus PC-7 turboprop trainers at the same time.

If the PC-7s are phased out it will look to buy training hours from a European partner in the short term, while in the longer term Vienna would upgrade its simulator training and purchase a “high-efficiency trainer” aircraft. It does not specify if this would be jet- or turboprop-powered.


So it looks like Austria will be on the market quite soon. Hopefully this time around they can avoid "wilful deception and fraud" that they are now alleging ( ref: http://www.reuters.com/article/us-austr ... SKBN15V118 ).
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
Hold away despair, more than this I will not ask.
Faced with mysteries dark and vast, statements just seem vain at last.
Some rise, some fall, some climb, to get to Terrapin!
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 2833
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Sun Jul 09, 2017 3:55 pm

I see a combination of 20-25 PC-21 and 18 Saab JAS39 E/F Gripen in Austria's future.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
angad84
Posts: 1908
Joined: Mon Nov 05, 2012 3:04 pm

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:41 pm

Dutchy wrote:
I see a combination of 20-25 PC-21 and 18 Saab JAS39 E/F Gripen in Austria's future.

Sounds about right. They might even be prime contenders for some of the C/D jets that Saab insists still have a market.
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 2833
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Sun Jul 09, 2017 5:43 pm

angad84 wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
I see a combination of 20-25 PC-21 and 18 Saab JAS39 E/F Gripen in Austria's future.

Sounds about right. They might even be prime contenders for some of the C/D jets that Saab insists still have a market.


Yup or even A/B models if there are some left in storage. They only need them to police the skies. But with the 2020 time frame in mind, I would say that new build E/F are most likely.
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
Planeflyer
Posts: 586
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:49 am

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:06 pm

Did not realize all the restrictions on Austria. They are practically defenseless.
 
SCAT15F
Posts: 647
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 8:34 am

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Sun Jul 09, 2017 6:11 pm

Dutchy wrote:
I see a combination of 20-25 PC-21 and 18 Saab JAS39 E/F Gripen in Austria's future.


My thoughts exactly.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 1008
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Sun Jul 09, 2017 7:22 pm

Planeflyer wrote:
Did not realize all the restrictions on Austria. They are practically defenseless.


But against what threat? They are surrounded by peaceful neighbours:
Italy, Germany: Both partners in the EU, both at very good terms with Austria.
Switzerland: Fiercely neutral and very friendly.
Slovenia, Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovakia: All EU members, all friendly and all militarily midgets.
Lichtenstein: No military.
 
YIMBY
Posts: 201
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:32 pm

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Sun Jul 09, 2017 8:12 pm

VSMUT wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
Did not realize all the restrictions on Austria. They are practically defenseless.


But against what threat? They are surrounded by peaceful neighbours:
Italy, Germany: Both partners in the EU, both at very good terms with Austria.
Switzerland: Fiercely neutral and very friendly.
Slovenia, Hungary, Czech Republic, Slovakia: All EU members, all friendly and all militarily midgets.
Lichtenstein: No military.


Not that it is very likely (though more likely than T and B would have been), but at least one of its neighbours has significant political forces that want to default from EU, and more than one are virtually unable to defend their airspace from a major aerial attack, being airhighways to the west. It would be foolish to remain completely defenceless - as some other traditional European country has almost done. They have no reasons to bind their hands with an own constitution - or is it unchangeable like the German basic law and the US constitution partially are?
 
Planeflyer
Posts: 586
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:49 am

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:45 am

I get it, everything seems to be going just fine so why spend billions but as we have seen time and again, especially in this part of the world situations can change.

Hopefully everything stays as it is and they never need a modern AF.
 
Planeflyer
Posts: 586
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:49 am

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:45 am

I get it, everything seems to be going just fine so why spend billions but as we have seen time and again, especially in this part of the world situations can change.

Hopefully everything stays as it is and they never need a modern AF.
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 5172
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Mon Jul 10, 2017 6:10 am

Dutchy wrote:
I see a combination of 20-25 PC-21 and 18 Saab JAS39 E/F Gripen in Austria's future.


You mean they will end with more planes than today, when about 50% of the voters want no planes at all?
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 2833
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:33 am

seahawk wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
I see a combination of 20-25 PC-21 and 18 Saab JAS39 E/F Gripen in Austria's future.


You mean they will end with more planes than today, when about 50% of the voters want no planes at all?


As per wiki, they have 30 Saab105ö/PC7 and 15 EF2000, 45 in total. How is that more than 38 - 43?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
User avatar
Revelation
Posts: 15649
Joined: Wed Feb 09, 2005 9:37 pm

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Mon Jul 10, 2017 10:28 am

Planeflyer wrote:
I get it, everything seems to be going just fine so why spend billions but as we have seen time and again, especially in this part of the world situations can change.

Hopefully everything stays as it is and they never need a modern AF.


Because certain political elements can always accuse you of "being soft" if you don't spend a significant amount on defense.
Inspiration, move me brightly! Light the song with sense and color.
Hold away despair, more than this I will not ask.
Faced with mysteries dark and vast, statements just seem vain at last.
Some rise, some fall, some climb, to get to Terrapin!
 
User avatar
seahawk
Posts: 5172
Joined: Fri May 27, 2005 1:29 am

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Mon Jul 10, 2017 11:15 am

Dutchy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Dutchy wrote:
I see a combination of 20-25 PC-21 and 18 Saab JAS39 E/F Gripen in Austria's future.


You mean they will end with more planes than today, when about 50% of the voters want no planes at all?


As per wiki, they have 30 Saab105ö/PC7 and 15 EF2000, 45 in total. How is that more than 38 - 43?


But only about 20 planes are airworthy at any given time. One would hope that the new systems would have a higher readiness rate.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 1008
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Mon Jul 10, 2017 2:31 pm

YIMBY wrote:
Not that it is very likely (though more likely than T and B would have been), but at least one of its neighbours has significant political forces that want to default from EU, and more than one are virtually unable to defend their airspace from a major aerial attack, being airhighways to the west. It would be foolish to remain completely defenceless - as some other traditional European country has almost done. They have no reasons to bind their hands with an own constitution - or is it unchangeable like the German basic law and the US constitution partially are?


I presume you mean a Russian incursion. Even if the Russians were to use Austria as an undefended aerial corridor to gain access to western Europe, I don't see it as a viable method, even if the neighbours are defenceless. Any incursion from Russia would still have to pass through several other heavily defended airspaces (both by local forces and NATO air policing missions) before they even reach the neighbours of Austria, let alone Austria. It would be both foolish and paranoid for Austria to build up any significant air defence force in expectance of a Russian incursion.

YIMBY wrote:
They have no reasons to bind their hands with an own constitution - or is it unchangeable like the German basic law and the US constitution partially are?


No reason, apart from starting 2 world wars, and quite literally being Nazi Germany during the second. I don't think Russia would allow them to change the law either, and I do believe the terms mean that Russia has a say in the matter.
The Danish island of Bornholm is in a similar situation, with the Russians binding the Danish government to a number of clauses, including a permanent Danish military presence on the island, and a ban on any foreign military presence on the island.
 
tommy1808
Posts: 5996
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Mon Jul 10, 2017 2:44 pm

Revelation wrote:
Planeflyer wrote:
I get it, everything seems to be going just fine so why spend billions but as we have seen time and again, especially in this part of the world situations can change.

Hopefully everything stays as it is and they never need a modern AF.


Because certain political elements can always accuse you of "being soft" if you don't spend a significant amount on defense.


Well, the US Air Force just plan not caring and using Austrian Airspace without permission is one of the reasons Austria wants to have eyes in the Sky. Stuff like announcing a DC-10 flight and sending a KC-10 with two F117 hiding with it aren´t exactly acceptable. Same for CIA C130s and such stuff...

best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
Planeflyer
Posts: 586
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2014 3:49 am

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Mon Jul 10, 2017 4:39 pm

We're these alleged( I searched and couldn't find any stories related to f117 incursions into Austrian airspace) incursions related to the mess you all created in the Balkans?
 
User avatar
Dutchy
Posts: 2833
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:00 pm

Planeflyer wrote:
We're these alleged( I searched and couldn't find any stories related to f117 incursions into Austrian airspace) incursions related to the mess you all created in the Balkans?



Heard that story before. Whom created a mess in the Balkans?
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
tommy1808
Posts: 5996
Joined: Thu Nov 21, 2013 3:24 pm

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Mon Jul 10, 2017 5:17 pm

Planeflyer wrote:
We're these alleged( I searched and couldn't find any stories related to f117 incursions into Austrian airspace) incursions related to the mess you all created in the Balkans?


Since that was oct. 18th 2002 i'd say no.

Image

That's from the Austrian parliament discussion afterwords.

Image

And that is the flightplan: one aircraft.

Best regards
Thomas
Times are changing: 70 years ago the USA went to war to defeat the Nazis, now they elect them to run their country.
 
YIMBY
Posts: 201
Joined: Tue Sep 20, 2016 4:32 pm

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:31 pm

VSMUT wrote:
YIMBY wrote:
Not that it is very likely (though more likely than T and B would have been), but at least one of its neighbours has significant political forces that want to default from EU, and more than one are virtually unable to defend their airspace from a major aerial attack, being airhighways to the west. It would be foolish to remain completely defenceless - as some other traditional European country has almost done. They have no reasons to bind their hands with an own constitution - or is it unchangeable like the German basic law and the US constitution partially are?


I presume you mean a Russian incursion. Even if the Russians were to use Austria as an undefended aerial corridor to gain access to western Europe, I don't see it as a viable method, even if the neighbours are defenceless. Any incursion from Russia would still have to pass through several other heavily defended airspaces (both by local forces and NATO air policing missions) before they even reach the neighbours of Austria, let alone Austria. It would be both foolish and paranoid for Austria to build up any significant air defence force in expectance of a Russian incursion.

Romania and Hungary are not that heavily defended, neither Czech, Slovakia or Bulgaria. Indeed none of these countries has any credible air defence of its own but rely on other countries.

VSMUT wrote:
YIMBY wrote:
They have no reasons to bind their hands with an own constitution - or is it unchangeable like the German basic law and the US constitution partially are?


No reason, apart from starting 2 world wars, and quite literally being Nazi Germany during the second. I don't think Russia would allow them to change the law either, and I do believe the terms mean that Russia has a say in the matter.
The Danish island of Bornholm is in a similar situation, with the Russians binding the Danish government to a number of clauses, including a permanent Danish military presence on the island, and a ban on any foreign military presence on the island.


The pact was signed (dictated) by USSR that does not exist any more. UK, USA and France may not object if Austria gets some self-defence. Take also that Putin and Trump are notorious for not respecting international treaties. Hence Austria could terminate all restrictions unilaterally without any fear for retaliation. All other countries that lost the WW2 have essentially withdrawn from all external restrictions with explicit or implicit permission by other parties so Austria should not permit to be treated as second class country any more, as all culprits to WW2 are definitely dead.
 
VSMUT
Posts: 1008
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: Replacement of Austrian Typhoons

Mon Jul 10, 2017 7:49 pm

YIMBY wrote:
Romania and Hungary are not that heavily defended, neither Czech, Slovakia or Bulgaria. Indeed none of these countries has any credible air defence of its own but rely on other countries.


There is a NATO air policing mission in Romania, to the south you have Turkey, Greece and Italy. To the north you have Poland. Between Poland/Romania/Slovakia/Hungary and Russia you also have Ukraine. You are thinking this up as some sort of Tom Clancy-esque scenario where Russian bombers fly 4000 km through hostile airspace just to pass through the "undefended" airspace of Austria. Given the range, they will not be able to bring fighter escorts along, making the AIM-9 equipped Austrian AF more than up to the task. How likely does your scenario sound to you now? How much are you suggesting that Austria should spend on such an unlikely scenario, when they don't have enough helicopter capacity to even deal with actual local disasters such as floods and avalanches?

YIMBY wrote:
The pact was signed (dictated) by USSR that does not exist any more. UK, USA and France may not object if Austria gets some self-defence. Take also that Putin and Trump are notorious for not respecting international treaties. Hence Austria could terminate all restrictions unilaterally without any fear for retaliation. All other countries that lost the WW2 have essentially withdrawn from all external restrictions with explicit or implicit permission by other parties so Austria should not permit to be treated as second class country any more, as all culprits to WW2 are definitely dead.


Treaties with the USSR as a signatory were inherited by Russia. Civilized western countries generally respect such treaties, even more so when the population of Austria doesn't even want to rid itself of said limitations.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Spacepope and 2 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos