lordarpad
Topic Author
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:23 pm

A600M

Sat Feb 25, 2017 9:47 pm

It strikes me that Europe could use a bigger airlifter eventually. Would a 6 engine Atlas work? Basically an Atlas + 50% ?
 
WIederling
Posts: 3304
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: A600M

Sat Feb 25, 2017 10:05 pm

That would be three twins, right?

I'd see an A200M as a slight upgrade to the Transall.
Twin with same engines and similar systems to the A400M
Murphy is an optimist
 
Ozair
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Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: A600M

Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:02 am

lordarpad wrote:
It strikes me that Europe could use a bigger airlifter eventually. Would a 6 engine Atlas work? Basically an Atlas + 50% ?

Surely a jet makes sense when you start getting into that size range? Then you have to find a customer, I don't think France or Germany are interested in a larger transport, who do you see acquiring it?

WIederling wrote:
That would be three twins, right?

I'd see an A200M as a slight upgrade to the Transall.
Twin with same engines and similar systems to the A400M

The twin market is already pretty congested, I'm not sure there would be a business case for a twin A200M as it were, would also place it in competition with the C-295.
 
WIederling
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Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: A600M

Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:46 pm

C-295 ... is a 9t payload airframe.
A400M nominally 40t ( they'll get there :-)
A 20+t lifter would fit in well imho. ( The Transall has been in heavy use all around.)
Murphy is an optimist
 
VSMUT
Posts: 881
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2016 11:40 am

Re: A600M

Sun Feb 26, 2017 6:31 pm

IMHO, a simple stretch of the A400M makes more sense if a bigger airlifter is needed. Cooperation with Embraer on the KC-390 would be a better choice for a 20 ton freighter.
 
SCAT15F
Posts: 609
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 8:34 am

Re: A600M

Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:33 pm

VSMUT wrote:
IMHO, a simple stretch of the A400M makes more sense if a bigger airlifter is needed. Cooperation with Embraer on the KC-390 would be a better choice for a 20 ton freighter.


Yes. Perhaps the addition of blended winglets would help too. Not that I don't think it would be cool, but six-engine transport would have to be pretty large to justify 6 engines given the fact that we are no longer limited by engine size these days. Even in the 1950's the capability existed for 20,000 hp turboprops (P&W T-57 growth versions). For instance, the Antonov An-225 today could easily be powered by four engines in the GE9X class...
 
Ozair
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Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: A600M

Mon Feb 27, 2017 12:48 am

WIederling wrote:
C-295 ... is a 9t payload airframe.
A400M nominally 40t ( they'll get there :-)
A 20+t lifter would fit in well imho. ( The Transall has been in heavy use all around.)


Sure but what is the business case to develop a shortened version? Given how financially unviable the A400 has become for Airbus I cannot see them putting funding to this.

They would rather upsell customers to an A400 instead of competing with the C-130, KC-390 etc.
 
aviationaware
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Re: A600M

Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:29 pm

Maybe get the A400M going properly before discussing something even bigger.
 
WIederling
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Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: A600M

Mon Feb 27, 2017 1:48 pm

Ozair wrote:
They would rather upsell customers to an A400 instead of competing with the C-130, KC-390 etc.


"America First" will shove quite a bit of competing products into the markets.
( As most everybody will switch over to Us First. )
Murphy is an optimist
 
Ozair
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Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: A600M

Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:02 pm

WIederling wrote:

"America First" will shove quite a bit of competing products into the markets.
( As most everybody will switch over to Us First. )

It would be foolish of Airbus to invest 3-4 billion dollars into a program on the basis of a likely single term President. 4 years from now the pendulum will likely swing back and Airbus will be saddled with more A400 associated costs they will be unable to recover...
 
WIederling
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Re: A600M

Mon Feb 27, 2017 9:25 pm

Ozair wrote:
WIederling wrote:

"America First" will shove quite a bit of competing products into the markets.
( As most everybody will switch over to Us First. )

It would be foolish of Airbus to invest 3-4 billion dollars into a program on the basis of a likely single term President. 4 years from now the pendulum will likely swing back and Airbus will be saddled with more A400 associated costs they will be unable to recover...


I am not certain. But at the moment my judgement is that Trump ( actually the topping from the bottom minions behind him) will trash enough established patterns that the world will not be same after this experience. No return.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Nean1
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Joined: Mon May 30, 2016 11:08 pm

Re: A600M

Tue Feb 28, 2017 5:13 pm

What if the troublesome A-400 turboprops were replaced by the PW GTF?
 
mxaxai
Posts: 117
Joined: Sat Jun 18, 2016 7:29 am

Re: A600M

Wed Mar 01, 2017 10:58 am

Nean1 wrote:
What if the troublesome A-400 turboprops were replaced by the PW GTF?

Or two Trent XWB. :duck:

As with any reengine, you would need to redo some structural elements. Due to the change Prop -> Jet flight characteristics would likely change as well, it may also be that they cannot handle dirt ingestion or unusual maneuvers as well as the TP-400 is supposed to.
One large problem would be the lack of airflow over the wing caused by the engines, which really helps to achieve the STOL characteristics.
 
mjoelnir
Posts: 5167
Joined: Sun Feb 03, 2013 11:06 pm

Re: A600M

Wed Mar 01, 2017 12:25 pm

Nean1 wrote:
What if the troublesome A-400 turboprops were replaced by the PW GTF?


the trouble on the Europrop TP-400 is on the way to getting solved. The problem is the prop gear supplied by the GE subsidiary Avio Aero. A redesigned gear is on the way.
It is always easy to say that Airbus should have gone with P&W's PW180 but that was also not a running engine, but just a design. P&W has not a very good track record of delivering on time and without problems.

Other problems with the A400M are also getting solved, as there are, jumping off the A300M with parachutes, parachute delivery of loads, defensive suits, operation from unimproved airstrips and refueling of helicopters. I do not know if the cracking issue is solved.
 
WIederling
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Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: A600M

Thu Mar 02, 2017 10:54 am

mjoelnir wrote:
The problem is the prop gear supplied by the GE subsidiary Avio Aero. A redesigned gear is on the way.


Still wondering why that did not come up on the prototype engines.
Murphy is an optimist
 
Slug71
Posts: 103
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:08 am

Re: A600M

Thu Mar 02, 2017 6:07 pm

WIederling wrote:
mjoelnir wrote:
The problem is the prop gear supplied by the GE subsidiary Avio Aero. A redesigned gear is on the way.


Still wondering why that did not come up on the prototype engines.


The only thing I could think was, that the redesign of other parts has caused some sort of imbalance to the gear in question.
 
Slug71
Posts: 103
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 6:08 am

Re: A600M

Thu Mar 02, 2017 6:19 pm

WIederling wrote:
That would be three twins, right?

I'd see an A200M as a slight upgrade to the Transall.
Twin with same engines and similar systems to the A400M


I could see something like this to replace the C-295. And Transall.
With a internal weapons bay for the MPA variant.
 
lordarpad
Topic Author
Posts: 20
Joined: Thu Jul 10, 2008 5:23 pm

Re: A600M

Sat Apr 22, 2017 9:53 am

Ozair wrote:
lordarpad wrote:
It strikes me that Europe could use a bigger airlifter eventually. Would a 6 engine Atlas work? Basically an Atlas + 50% ?

Surely a jet makes sense when you start getting into that size range? Then you have to find a customer, I don't think France or Germany are interested in a larger transport, who do you see acquiring it?


That would have to be for a joint EU airlift command IMO
 
User avatar
Mortyman
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Re: A600M

Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:05 pm

Shame the C-17 isn't built anymore ...
 
iamlucky13
Posts: 649
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Re: A600M

Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:30 pm

Mortyman wrote:
Shame the C-17 isn't built anymore ...


The European nations had 20+ years to buy C-17's.

The UK bought 8. The rest concluded the A400M would be sufficient for their foreseeable needs. It would be a pretty significant reversal to suddenly decide they need a bigger aircraft.
 
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Dutchy
Posts: 2005
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2007 1:25 am

Re: A600M

Tue Apr 25, 2017 5:01 pm

iamlucky13 wrote:
Mortyman wrote:
Shame the C-17 isn't built anymore ...


The European nations had 20+ years to buy C-17's.

The UK bought 8. The rest concluded the A400M would be sufficient for their foreseeable needs. It would be a pretty significant reversal to suddenly decide they need a bigger aircraft.


NATO airlift has 3, based at Pápa Air Base in Hungary.

http://www.nato.int/cps/en/natohq/topics_50105.htm
Many happy landings, greetings from The Netherlands!
 
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seahawk
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Re: A600M

Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:21 am

Oh yes, I am sure everybody will wanting another Airbus product after the experience with the A400M (grounded After 400 Minutes)
 
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JetBuddy
Posts: 1445
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Re: A600M

Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:41 am

seahawk wrote:
Oh yes, I am sure everybody will wanting another Airbus product after the experience with the A400M (grounded After 400 Minutes)


The A400M is doing pretty good, isn't it? Indonesia and Egypt are the latest customers I believe. I know it's got issues, but all new aircraft models do. They'll get it sorted. A stretched "Super Atlas" might be viable, but I agree that they should fix all the issues with the current model first.
 
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Grizzly410
Posts: 66
Joined: Sun May 10, 2015 8:38 pm

Re: A600M

Wed Apr 26, 2017 10:51 am

JetBuddy wrote:
The A400M is doing pretty good, isn't it? Indonesia and Egypt are the latest customers I believe.


Not so fast with the Indonesian deal even if it looks like a safe bet, for Egypt it's nothing more than a rumor.
In order to be old and wise, one must first be young and dumb.
 
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seahawk
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Re: A600M

Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:34 am

JetBuddy wrote:
seahawk wrote:
Oh yes, I am sure everybody will wanting another Airbus product after the experience with the A400M (grounded After 400 Minutes)


The A400M is doing pretty good, isn't it? Indonesia and Egypt are the latest customers I believe. I know it's got issues, but all new aircraft models do. They'll get it sorted. A stretched "Super Atlas" might be viable, but I agree that they should fix all the issues with the current model first.


It is not about the sales, it about the way the project was run. If Airbus will ever venture in this field again they will want to handle it like a commercial project, with critical components going to the best bidders and not going to bidders based on the percentage of the budget each partner nation does provide. I think Airbus would be even more against this than the partner nations.
 
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Aesma
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Re: A600M

Wed Apr 26, 2017 11:47 pm

We don't plan to invade countries with tanks, in fact we're not sure why we still have tanks, so no need for that plane.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
Ozair
Posts: 1530
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2005 8:38 am

Re: A600M

Thu Apr 27, 2017 12:13 am

Aesma wrote:
We don't plan to invade countries with tanks, in fact we're not sure why we still have tanks, so no need for that plane.

Not only that but there remains no viable business case for a stretch or shrink of the airframe. Enders would by sacked to even propose spending billions and developing either version in an already congested light and medium transport market.

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