anshabhi
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Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Sat Feb 11, 2017 3:15 pm

Eyeing a contract for IAF’s single-engine fighter jets, Swedish defence giant Saab on Friday said it will set up in India one of the most advanced aircraft production facilities globally if its Gripen E multi-role jet wins the deal.
Top Saab officials said the company has already finalised a blueprint for setting up the hub which will manufacture Gripen E for India and the global market besides having separate facilities to design, develop, modify and enhance new fighters for the future.


https://facebook.com/story.php?story_fb ... _tn__=%2As

This closes the doors for old & obsolete F-16. Trump doesn't needs to worry about either jobs or trade!
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olle
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Sat Feb 11, 2017 5:47 pm

This is the backside of america first against globalization. Swedish engineers gain from it and it creates jobs in Sweden. It also creates jobs in India.
 
art
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:03 pm

Top Saab officials said the company has already finalised a blueprint for setting up the hub which will manufacture Gripen E for India and the global market besides having separate facilities to design, develop, modify and enhance new fighters for the future.


Facebook link does not work for me. What source did the writer cite?

No doubt SAAB are keen to see Gripen E made in India. A nice profit helping set up there + greatly enhanced economies of scale + a production plant capable of pushing out low cost Gripen E's + possibly consultancy/partnership in developing AMCA. Just my opinion but I think SAAB would be much easier to work with than Lockheed, too.
 
Ozair
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Sat Feb 11, 2017 9:07 pm

olle wrote:
This is the backside of america first against globalization. Swedish engineers gain from it and it creates jobs in Sweden. It also creates jobs in India.

anshabhi wrote:
This closes the doors for old & obsolete F-16. Trump doesn't needs to worry about either jobs or trade!

Guys, the US is offering the same thing with the F-16. The difference is LM could get the F-16 set up in India in a couple of years while Saab, given the current state of the Gripen E program, would require probably four to five years. The question is how soon India wants it.

As for this impacting the US, you both realize the Gripen E has about 40% US content including the engine.
 
art
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Sat Feb 11, 2017 10:23 pm

Ozair wrote:
Guys, the US is offering the same thing with the F-16. The difference is LM could get the F-16 set up in India in a couple of years while Saab, given the current state of the Gripen E program, would require probably four to five years. The question is how soon India wants it.

As for this impacting the US, you both realize the Gripen E has about 40% US content including the engine.


I would expect things to muddle along for at least another 12-18 months before India actually signed on a Swedish or American dotted line. IIRC Gripen E is projected to start delivery in 2018. Given that it may well start being delivered a few months before or after India is ready to place an order for a 'Make in India' single engine fighter, I don't see a 4-5 year lag between an order for Gripen E and aircraft coming off an FAL in India due to the Gripen E program status.

Of course, this does not take account of politics. Trump could go nuclear if India did not make the right choice and chose not to award the contract to LM.
 
Ozair
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Sun Feb 12, 2017 12:37 am

art wrote:

I would expect things to muddle along for at least another 12-18 months before India actually signed on a Swedish or American dotted line. IIRC Gripen E is projected to start delivery in 2018. Given that it may well start being delivered a few months before or after India is ready to place an order for a 'Make in India' single engine fighter, I don't see a 4-5 year lag between an order for Gripen E and aircraft coming off an FAL in India due to the Gripen E program status.

Of course, this does not take account of politics. Trump could go nuclear if India did not make the right choice and chose not to award the contract to LM.

Gripen 2018 is initial delivery but it does not go IOC until 2022 and even then will be limited to A2A work only until 2025 when the radar modes are available for A2G work. As for capability, the Gripen E will offer little over the F-16 variant being proposed while an Indian F-16 lines offers the opportunity to sell, maintain or upgrade aircraft for the next 25 years.

Consider also that prior to Brazil Saab has never set up actual local fighter jet production anywhere else.

Finally, all indications are India are moving this deal more rapidly than the MMRCA, in a similar way to how the C-17 and P-8 acquisitions went.
 
anshabhi
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Sun Feb 12, 2017 1:17 am

art wrote:
Top Saab officials said the company has already finalised a blueprint for setting up the hub which will manufacture Gripen E for India and the global market besides having separate facilities to design, develop, modify and enhance new fighters for the future.


Facebook link does not work for me. What source did the writer cite?



That Facebook page is quiet reliable. Anyways search "Gripen" in Google news. Many newe websites have similar articles.
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anshabhi
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:09 am

India will sign the deal only if the jets are made in India. Will Trump allow F16 production line to move to India? Saab is ready to shift its entire production line to India, even for future jets. Including the under development 5th generation fighter.

Also, Gripen has delta wings same as Tejas. Rafale, Gripen, Tejas will share common design and thus will be easier to maintain..

And please, even USAF is retiring F16s. Why should India take them?
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BawliBooch
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Sun Feb 12, 2017 3:46 am

Saab will have to find an Indian partner if they want to see this through. And no, not the state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics that has a proven record of 50+ years in this area. It will have to be one of DearLeader's cronies to partner in this project.

The Rafale project was earlier cleared after Ambani owned Reliance group, one of the biggest contributors to the election fund, came forward to partner for production. The price agreed now is 2.5 times the price agreed in 2013 when HAL was supposed to do the local manufacture.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/anil-ambani-to-get-big-slice-of-rafale-deal-via-dassault-jv/articleshow/54653647.cms
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ThePointblank
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Sun Feb 12, 2017 3:47 am

A brand new F-16 is a more capable jet than the Gripen E. There's more weapons, pods and systems that are available and integrated on the F-16 compared to the Gripen, in all variants. It's also available sooner; for example, LM can offer an initial batch of F-16's to be built in Fort Worth, then supply knock down kits for another batch, and when the factory is ready in India, do full local assembly. Gripen E is going to take a lot longer to delivery and achieve operational status.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Sun Feb 12, 2017 3:49 am

anshabhi wrote:
India will sign the deal only if the jets are made in India.

Correction - India will sign the deal only if Western manufacturers sign deal with one of DearLeader's cronies. Ambani, Adani are leading contenders naturally.

anshabhi wrote:
Also, Gripen has delta wings same as Tejas. Rafale, Gripen, Tejas will share common design and thus will be easier to maintain..

:roll:

anshabhi wrote:
And please, even USAF is retiring F16s. Why should India take them?

That doesnt matter. If Lockheed signs up with Adani tomorrow, you can bet the F16 will become the standard Light Fighter for the Indian forces.
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Ozair
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Sun Feb 12, 2017 3:54 am

anshabhi wrote:
India will sign the deal only if the jets are made in India. Will Trump allow F16 production line to move to India?

Why now Trump is President do people think he makes every single minute decision...

As for your question, yes LM has already in principle agreed to transfer the F-16 line to India.

With no more orders for the F-16 from the Pentagon, Lockheed plans to use its Fort Worth, Texas plant instead to produce the fifth generation F-35 Joint Strike Fighter that the United States Air Force is transitioning to. Lockheed would switch F-16 production to India, as long as the Indian government agrees to order hundreds of the planes that its air force desperately needs.

https://tribune.com.pk/story/1322230/pl ... ion-india/

anshabhi wrote:
Saab is ready to shift its entire production line to India, even for future jets. Including the under development 5th generation fighter.

No it hasn't. Saab wants India to create a Gripen E production line in India. This will not come at the expense of Swedish Gripen E orders which will continue to be manufactured in Sweden. Brazil will also have an assembly line for Gripen E.

There is also no 5th generation fighter from Saab. If you are talking about the Indian AMCA then that is at least ten years away and more like 20.

anshabhi wrote:
Also, Gripen has delta wings same as Tejas. Rafale, Gripen, Tejas will share common design and thus will be easier to maintain..

In no way will it make any of those aircraft easier to maintain because they share a common wing type.

In contrast, there are still over 2000 F-16s in service around the globe. It will be easier to maintain an F-16 fleet when you have such a large already in service global fleet. While many of those will go out of service by 2035 there will be a large enough that will allow India to make money from the F-16 for many years to come.

anshabhi wrote:
And please, even USAF is retiring F16s. Why should India take them?

Because pound for pound updated F-16s are still very effective aircraft, especially for what India wants them to do.
 
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:55 am

BawliBooch wrote:
Correction - India will sign the deal only if Western manufacturers sign deal with one of DearLeader's cronies. Ambani, Adani are leading contenders naturally.

I don't agree with that. Neither Ambani nor Adani have shown any interest in making jets in India. Only Tata and Bharat Forge have done.
anshabhi wrote:
Also, Gripen has delta wings same as Tejas. Rafale, Gripen, Tejas will share common design and thus will be easier to maintain..

Oh sorry, I meant easier to develop..
Ozair wrote:
No it hasn't. Saab wants India to create a Gripen E production line in India. This will not come at the expense of Swedish Gripen E orders which will continue to be manufactured in Sweden. Brazil will also have an assembly line for Gripen E.


Brazil will only have an assembly line.

Molin said the facility for India would include a dedicated Gripen Design Centre, a major production facility equipped with the latest manufacturing technologies and robotics systems, a radar and sensor centre, final assembly plus test and verification centres, among others.
It will also have repair and overhaul and design services, he said, adding the fighter technology ecosystem would support the full spectrum of production capabilities for India, including parts manufacturing and subassembly.
.
https://facebook.com/story.php?story_fb ... _tn__=%2As


There is no reason why India should take a country's discarded product when a better option is available, which will boost long term abilities of India's defence manufacturing. With India's low cost structure and geographical advantages, Gripen could be the next F16.
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ThePointblank
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:35 am

anshabhi wrote:

There is no reason why India should take a country's discarded product when a better option is available, which will boost long term abilities of India's defence manufacturing. With India's low cost structure and geographical advantages, Gripen could be the next F16.

The Gripen and the Gripen E has lost out every time they were directly offered against the F-16.

The F-16 has had a better radar, more weapons, and more systems integrated into the aircraft, and has done for much longer. It's also going to be much cheaper too; Brazil is paying $45 billion USD for 36 Gripen E's. That's an average per unit cost of $125 million USD per aircraft. Don't need to tell you that even a F-35 is cheaper than that, and the F-35 will beat the Gripen E any day.
 
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Sun Feb 12, 2017 6:23 am

anshabhi wrote:
There is no reason why India should take a country's discarded product when a better option is available, which will boost long term abilities of India's defence manufacturing.


OK, US has moved on to a different LM product. In that sense the F-16 has been discarded (as it has been by the European countries which have opted to order F-35 rather than re-ordering F-16). By all accounts the F-16 remains a good fighter... but it has had decades of development so presumably has less potential for future development than a more recent design (Gripen).

anshabhi wrote:
With India's low cost structure and geographical advantages, Gripen could be the next F16.


I think Gripen E has the edge over F-16 in terms of potential market success in the 2020's and 2030's. Additionally I see SAAB recognising that parts manufacture and assembly (and design where India and Brazil have the know how) in lower cost economies will give Gripen E a cost advantage over any similar product made in small numbers (low to middle hundreds) in US or Europe.
 
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:03 am

BawliBooch wrote:
Saab will have to find an Indian partner if they want to see this through. And no, not the state-owned Hindustan Aeronautics that has a proven record of 50+ years in this area. It will have to be one of DearLeader's cronies to partner in this project.

The Rafale project was earlier cleared after Ambani owned Reliance group, one of the biggest contributors to the election fund, came forward to partner for production. The price agreed now is 2.5 times the price agreed in 2013 when HAL was supposed to do the local manufacture.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/anil-ambani-to-get-big-slice-of-rafale-deal-via-dassault-jv/articleshow/54653647.cms


Kindly don't talk like Indian media :lol:

While the deal might seem to be highly priced right now, actually it is very favourable for India. The MMRCA deal was only made for 126 Rafales in fly-away condition, nothing regarding the weapons package or maintenance had been included in it. While the current deal includes 36 Rafales in fly-away condition, also making Dassault promise an offset of more than 3 billion euros. That means creating business worth at least 3 billion euros for smaller Indian companies and generating thousands of new jobs in India through the offsets. It also includes the Rafale's weapons package which would include the Meteor beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile. The deal also includes simulators, spares, maintenance, and Performance Based Logistics support for five years(for five years India does not have to spend on maintenance).

France will also provide logistics and ground support and ensure that there is 75 percent i.e. 27 aircraft are operationally available at any time.

The aircraft will be customised as per the requirements of the IAF which include Helmet Mounted Displays, radar warning receiver, infrared search and track among others advanced technologies.


https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-t ... book-posts

About F16 vs Gripen. Americans believe F16 is better while Europeans believe Gripen is better. It's as easy as that! But a real factor is Gripen's operating costs is 40% less than F16.
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:05 am

anshabhi wrote:
I don't agree with that. Neither Ambani nor Adani have shown any interest in making jets in India. Only Tata and Bharat Forge have done.

oh dear! Have you been following the news only selectively? Bhakti makes you blind I see!

The Rafale contract was signed with Anil Ambani as the Indian partner instead of the state-owned PSU HAL - at TWICE the cost.
Anil Ambani's Reliance group signs JV with Rafale jet makers Dassault

And Adani bhai is also getting into the business with a tieup with an Israeli firm.
After ADAG, Adani enters defence sector, signs up with Israeli firm

Read, understand and then take a position!

anshabhi wrote:
Oh sorry, I meant easier to develop..

Nothing has to be "developed". Gripen is an operational platform has been flying since the 90's.

anshabhi wrote:
Brazil will only have an assembly line.

And what do you think India will have genius?
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ThePointblank
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:09 am

art wrote:
anshabhi wrote:
With India's low cost structure and geographical advantages, Gripen could be the next F16.


I think Gripen E has the edge over F-16 in terms of potential market success in the 2020's and 2030's. Additionally I see SAAB recognising that parts manufacture and assembly (and design where India and Brazil have the know how) in lower cost economies will give Gripen E a cost advantage over any similar product made in small numbers (low to middle hundreds) in US or Europe.

Here's the problem: The Gripen E is too expensive and has too many restrictions to effectively compete in the world fighter market.

Basically, if a country has the money to buy Gripen E, they also can afford other types, such as the Dassault Rafale, the Eurofighter Typhoon, and the F-35. All 3 of the other options are more capable aircraft.

If a country can't afford a high end fighter, they can't afford to buy Gripen E. And no, building the aircraft in India and Brazil will not make the aircraft any cheaper; the main issue is the cost of the subassemblies, the engineering, and production efficiencies. Focusing on the prime contractor final assembly location is effectively barking up the wrong tree. Today's aircraft production is much more horizontally integrated than it used to be and the vast majority of the aircraft structures, hydraulics, fuel system components, wiring harnesses, actuators, circuit cards, etc will all be coming from outside suppliers. Instead, those nations will look at either used aircraft, or non-Western designs.

Also, consider the American content in the Gripen E; the Gripen E can only be exported to nations where the US has given approval for the export of the GE F414 engine. Generally, countries that have such approval are generally fairly wealthy countries that are Western aligned; and they would also have access to other Western fighter types, which leads us back to the first issue on costs. If a country can't get approval from the US, they will look elsewhere to either the Rafale or Chinese or Russian designs.

And besides, anyone with a brain knows that if a 4th or 4.5th generation aircraft comes across a 5th generation fighter, the pilot flying a 4th or 4.5th gen fighter is screwed for the most part, so if you can afford high end fighter jets, and have access to any of the types available or can develop their own, they will get a 5th generation fighter over anything else.

anshabhi wrote:
But a real factor is Gripen's operating costs is 40% less than F16.

No it isn't. Saab was effectively call out for making the same misleading claim in Canadian Parliament:
http://www.parl.gc.ca/HousePublications ... Id=4865088


Mr. Jack Harris:
And can I ask a specific question about the cost per hour? Is that an operating cost? We've heard here about something called sustainment costs--in other words, the ongoing maintenance, the refits, the check-overs, etc. Are you talking here about the cost of operating, or are you talking about the same figure that would be called sustainment costs over the life of an aircraft?

Mr. Jack Harris:
Thank you.
I think you said you could meet the high-level capability requirements. If I may summarize your statement here today, you say you would guarantee the minimum of 100% offset. From your figures, it seems to be cheaper per unit than the F-35. The estimated operating costs of $4,000 to $4,500 you say is cheaper than your competitors, that you're interoperable with the F-35, and that you're willing to bid on a program of less than the full number--in other words, be interoperable with the F-35. Is that correct?

Mr. Antony Ogilvy:
Yes, sir.

Mr. Antony Ogilvy:
The figure we gave of $4,000 to $4,500 Canadian per hour covers the direct operating costs, which are basically the fuel, oil, all consumables, all spares, all first- and second-line servicing, everything you would need to operate the aircraft on and off base. The only thing we don't include there is the labour charge for off-base operation. There are too many variables there.
This figure is one you can use as a comparison. It's going to be the same metric applied to any aircraft. If you simply take an apples to apples, that gives you the comparison you need. How much does it cost to run this aircraft over 40 years? We say it's $4,000 to $4,500 per hour.
Sustainment engineering is a parallel activity, which would be done in this country, so we don't look at that. That's not a cost to you; that's part of your program, which comes with the Gripen aircraft. You will sustain and engineer your own aircraft. That's part of our commitment to you to enable you to do that.

Mr. Jack Harris:
And you say that is included in the $4,000, or is not?

Mr. Antony Ogilvy:
No, sir. The $4,000 to $4,500 are direct operating costs. Sustainment—

Mr. Jack Harris:
But that includes spares?

Mr. Antony Ogilvy:
It does include spares, first- and second-line servicing, fuel, oil, and off-base servicing, all the maintenance you need. The only thing we don't include in that, as I say, is the labour costs. Labour costs vary so much around the world, sir, that we take out labour costs.


Hon. Laurie Hawn:
How much fuel does the Gripen hold?

Mr. Antony Ogilvy:
It holds 3.3 tonnes internally and up to 3 tonnes externally.

Hon. Laurie Hawn:
So that's about 12,000 pounds, round number?

Mr. Antony Ogilvy:
Yes.

Hon. Laurie Hawn:
What does the Swedish air force pay for a gallon of fuel? Do you have any idea?

Mr. Peter Ringh:
I don't have any idea, sorry.

Mr. Antony Ogilvy:
We could find out.

Hon. Laurie Hawn:
Your suggested operating cost of $4,000 to $4,500 an hour is frankly not believable with just the cost of fuel, let alone throwing in spares and all the other things you talked about. I don't think that's an accurate figure at all. Your answers are understandable, and I get that.[
 
anshabhi
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Sun Feb 12, 2017 8:30 am

BawliBooch wrote:
The Rafale contract was signed with Anil Ambani as the Indian partner instead of the state-owned PSU HAL - at TWICE the cost.
Anil Ambani's Reliance group signs JV with Rafale jet makers Dassault

And Adani bhai is also getting into the business with a tieup with an Israeli firm.
After ADAG, Adani enters defence sector, signs up with Israeli firm

Read, understand and then take a position!

anshabhi wrote:
Oh sorry, I meant easier to develop..

Nothing has to be "developed". Gripen is an operational platform has been flying since the 90's.



You obviously need some support from private sector when PSUs are in such a bad condition. Seriously, there's no rose without a thorn. Modi government isn't perfect but it's better for India than rest. They are going to employ Indians only and spend their money in India only. Btw, it was Dassault who entered in a JV with Reliance, and it happened in 2012.

I think I have answered the rest in above posts.


ThePointblank wrote:

I don't know but 3 leading fighter jet websites believe that Gripen is cheap and powerful but it loses out to used cheap Eurofighters & F16s and diplomatic clout.
https://www.strategypage.com/dls/articl ... 6-2013.asp
http://www.aviationweek.com/defense/saa ... e-fighters
http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-bu ... lane-13928

And yes there's a lot of American content in it but Saab is also promising to build research and developmental facilities in India. That's a big thing. Indians have a lot of talent but they lack the playground to display it.
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Sun Feb 12, 2017 9:32 am

http://defenceupdate.in/gripen-e-vs-f-1 ... -airforce/
Reasons for India to select F16

1 Single Supply Chain. More availability of parts. Faster Availability in wartime.
2 Battle Proven platform and sold to many NATO countries and various countries worldwide. So India can sell F 16 spare parts.
3 One of the most advanced Variant of F 16. With almost Medium Weight Category like capabilties.
4 Strategic advantage of grounding F 16s of Pakistan Air Force.

Reasons for not selecting F 16

1 High Operating and Life cycle costs as compared to Gripen.
2 Less Sensor packed than Gripen.
3 Adversary Air Forces know F 16 better so they can formulate Strategies to counter it.
4 No sepecific advantage to Other Indian Indegeneous products like LCA.

easons for India to select Gripen.

1 Gripen has lowest per unit life cycle and operating costs almost USD 4000.
2 Gripen is the most sensor packed and smartest fighter amongst the Fourth Generation Fighter Aircraft.
3 Gripen makers. The Saab has offered to help India manufacture LCA Tejas and Offer Naval Version of Gripen to Indian Navy IAC and IAC 2.

Reasons for not selecting Gripen.

1 Gripen uses American Engine so it will be difficult to manage supply chain.
2 Gripen’s per unit manufacturing cost is higher than that of LM F 16 blk 70.
3 Relatively less battle proven than F 16.

Conclusion:

The F 16 is experienced, comes with a strategic advantage and is versatile. It is relatively cheaper. While the Gripen is costlier is tactically more dominant and has got much greater amount of smart functions and sensors but have the lowest per unit operating cost.
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:53 am

Ozair wrote:
Consider also that prior to Brazil Saab has never set up actual local fighter jet production anywhere else.

Saab once had a project "activated" to sell Viggen to India afair.
Killed by by the US at the time ( engine.).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_37_V ... es_efforts
http://www.x-plane.org/home/urf/aviatio ... ports.html
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anshabhi
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Sun Feb 12, 2017 1:18 pm

WIederling wrote:
Ozair wrote:
Consider also that prior to Brazil Saab has never set up actual local fighter jet production anywhere else.

Saab once had a project "activated" to sell Viggen to India afair.
Killed by by the US at the time ( engine.).
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saab_37_V ... es_efforts
http://www.x-plane.org/home/urf/aviatio ... ports.html


That happened in 1978 when 7 years ago, US was planning to nuke India and Russia saved India. Those days also formed the base for India's soviet fighters.
Today, it's different. Even India's Indigenous HAL Tejas uses the GE F404. But exporting them from India might be a problem. That would be seen later. India is developing Kaveri engine as well..

Anyways, this is not a point of comparison. If US won't let an engine be exported then forget about an entire F16..
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Sun Feb 12, 2017 2:41 pm

anshabhi wrote:
You obviously need some support from private sector when PSUs are in such a bad condition.

PSU's are in a bad condition? Is Hindustan Aeronautics, with a proven record in both license manufacture from Mig 21's to Jaguars & indegenous design production, in a bad position or unable to produce Rafales?

anshabhi wrote:
Btw, it was Dassault who entered in a JV with Reliance, and it happened in 2012.

The JV between Ambani's Reliance & Dassault for manufacture of Rafale's was signed on Oct 2, 2016 one week after the deal for 36 Rafales was announced (Sep 23).

Get a clue. Seriously. Here is the link. Read it.

anshabhi wrote:
Seriously, there's no rose without a thorn. Modi government isn't perfect but it's better for India than rest.

Uffff! This forum is not the place for displaying your misplaced & misinformed bhakti for DearLeader. Be objective & factual.

The Rafale deal signed with the JV is going to cost India more for 36 jets than the original deal was to cost - for 126 jets if HAL was to manufacture! 400% cost escalation? That deal has corruption written all over it.
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Sun Feb 12, 2017 3:23 pm

ThePointblank wrote:
The Gripen and the Gripen E has lost out every time they were directly offered against the F-16.

The F-16 has had a better radar, more weapons, and more systems integrated into the aircraft, and has done for much longer. It's also going to be much cheaper too; Brazil is paying $45 billion USD for 36 Gripen E's. That's an average per unit cost of $125 million USD per aircraft. Don't need to tell you that even a F-35 is cheaper than that, and the F-35 will beat the Gripen E any day.


You seem to be very biased against any non-US plane (or non-LM?). I do not deny that F-16 is powerful, but you should show some respect to other producers, too.

Would you remind me when Gripen A/B/C/D and particularly E has lost against the F-16 when directly offered?

I may remember Poland, what else? Maybe those ten aircraft to Chile, but that was accompanied by second hand-fighters that happened to be available, unlike Gripen.

When have Gripen E and F-16 been even truly competing, other than Brazil where F-16 lost in the early phase (but you might say it was due to politics, bribery etc, unknown to US and LM, isn't it?).

How many new customers have ordered F-16 in this century?
When was the last time a first world country ordered F-16?

Last but not least, in a modern war you will not see one fighter against other fighter (except maybe some isolated third world conflicts). It will be the attack system against the defence system, and those consists of much more than a fighter or even squadrons of fighters. And your F-35 will have some mission to do, usually to make a first strike against enemy targets, not just to have fun flights to see if there happens to be inadvertent enemy fighters nearby to shoot them down. With the super-duper bunker buster bomb filling in all the internal weapon bay, and all possible self-defence weapons hanging in the external pods, and tanks at least half full for the long return flight, appropriately equipped Gripen E's supported by a local ground surveillance system are quite on par with F-35's.

P.S. Would you give a quote where the average cost of F-35 is less than 125 MUSD per plane, including all the system to be delivered, i.e. not just the additional cost for another plane to be delivered to existing customers like the US.
 
anshabhi
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Sun Feb 12, 2017 4:12 pm

BawliBooch wrote:
PSU's are in a bad condition? Is Hindustan Aeronautics, with a proven record in both license manufacture from Mig 21's to Jaguars & indegenous design production, in a bad position or unable to produce Rafales?

Let's not talk about the success rate or operational rate of HAL manufactured aircraft. Only HAL Mig 21s got defamed as "Flying Coffins".. Tejas took 33 years to develop. Su 30MKIs have 64% operational rate, they keep crashing every 3 months. I don't want to say much about our own HAL. Read this: http://www.firstpost.com/india/hindusta ... 78616.html. HAL is as good as AI. Same issues same causes.


anshabhi wrote:
Btw, it was Dassault who entered in a JV with Reliance, and it happened in 2012.

The JV between Ambani's Reliance & Dassault for manufacture of Rafale's was signed on Oct 2, 2016 one week after the deal for 36 Rafales was announced (Sep 23).

Get a clue. Seriously. Here is the link. Read it.

anshabhi wrote:
Seriously, there's no rose without a thorn. Modi government isn't perfect but it's better for India than rest.

Uffff! This forum is not the place for displaying your misplaced & misinformed bhakti for DearLeader. Be objective & factual.

The Rafale deal signed with the JV is going to cost India more for 36 jets than the original deal was to cost - for 126 jets if HAL was to manufacture! 400% cost escalation? That deal has corruption written all over it.[/quote]

I can't find a link for it but I remember it was in news since 2012. Anyways, BSNL always existed and 6 months earlier, I was paying ₹250/gb for 4G. Today I get Jio for ₹51/gb.

While the deal might seem to be highly priced right now, actually it is very favourable for India. The MMRCA deal was only made for 126 Rafales in fly-away condition, nothing regarding the weapons package or maintenance had been included in it. While the current deal includes 36 Rafales in fly-away condition, also making Dassault promise an offset of more than 3 billion euros. That means creating business worth at least 3 billion euros for smaller Indian companies and generating thousands of new jobs in India through the offsets. It also includes the Rafale's weapons package which would include the Meteor beyond-visual-range air-to-air missile. The deal also includes simulators, spares, maintenance, and Performance Based Logistics support for five years(for five years India does not have to spend on maintenance).

France will also provide logistics and ground support and ensure that there is 75 percent i.e. 27 aircraft are operationally available at any time.

The aircraft will be customised as per the requirements of the IAF which include Helmet Mounted Displays, radar warning receiver, infrared search and track among others advanced technologies.
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art
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Sun Feb 12, 2017 5:05 pm

[quote="ThePointblank]The F-16 has had a better radar, more weapons, and more systems integrated into the aircraft, and has done for much longer. It's also going to be much cheaper too; Brazil is paying $45 billion USD for 36 Gripen E's. That's an average per unit cost of $125 million USD per aircraft. Don't need to tell you that even a F-35 is cheaper than that, and the F-35 will beat the Gripen E any day.[/quote]

Correction: you make it sound as if Brazil is paying an average per unit cost of $125 million USD per Gripen E. Brazil is not buying 36 Gripen E. It is buying much, much more than the aircraft and support equipment and spares for them. It is buying its way into becoming a sophisticated fast jet manufacturer. It would be interesting to see what it costs to build a Gripen E in Brazil for the next 36 (when Brazil has sorted out production) and then the 36 after that (if that many are ordered).
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:02 am

YIMBY wrote:
You seem to be very biased against any non-US plane (or non-LM?). I do not deny that F-16 is powerful, but you should show some respect to other producers, too.

Would you remind me when Gripen A/B/C/D and particularly E has lost against the F-16 when directly offered?

I may remember Poland, what else? Maybe those ten aircraft to Chile, but that was accompanied by second hand-fighters that happened to be available, unlike Gripen.

When have Gripen E and F-16 been even truly competing, other than Brazil where F-16 lost in the early phase (but you might say it was due to politics, bribery etc, unknown to US and LM, isn't it?).

How many new customers have ordered F-16 in this century?
When was the last time a first world country ordered F-16?

Last but not least, in a modern war you will not see one fighter against other fighter (except maybe some isolated third world conflicts). It will be the attack system against the defence system, and those consists of much more than a fighter or even squadrons of fighters. And your F-35 will have some mission to do, usually to make a first strike against enemy targets, not just to have fun flights to see if there happens to be inadvertent enemy fighters nearby to shoot them down. With the super-duper bunker buster bomb filling in all the internal weapon bay, and all possible self-defence weapons hanging in the external pods, and tanks at least half full for the long return flight, appropriately equipped Gripen E's supported by a local ground surveillance system are quite on par with F-35's.

P.S. Would you give a quote where the average cost of F-35 is less than 125 MUSD per plane, including all the system to be delivered, i.e. not just the additional cost for another plane to be delivered to existing customers like the US.

The F-16's sales record shows. Since 2000, new F-16's have been sold to Israel, Chile, Morocco, Iraq, Oman, Poland, Singapore, Turkey, Egypt, Greece, Pakistan, and the UAE. Used F-16's have been sold to even more nations.

Remember the Swiss evaluation that got leaked to the press? That evaluation said that the Gripen was inferior in many ways to the Swiss F/A-18 Hornet fleet in range, performance, and payload. Even the Gripen E wouldn't be a significant upgrade against the F/A-18. Ad the Swiss evaluation also showed that a Gripen E the expected per unit cost of Gripen E was going to be around $96 million per aircraft; the exchange rate has changed since then and it has only gone up.

And the F-35 price decreases: Have you been paying attention to the other threads here? Here's a graphic:
http://www.airinternational.com/view_ar ... p?ID=10548
Image

First time a F-35A's fly away price has dropped below $100 million... and it will continue to fall as the production rate ramps up.

The Gripen E is occupying an unusual sector of the fighter jet market where it's going to get squeezed from multiple directions:

If you are a wealthy Western-aligned nation and have long term defence ties to the US, you are probably going to buy the F-35;
If you are a wealthy Western-aligned nation and don't have access to the F-35, you are probably going to buy something like the F-16, F-15E, the F/A-18 Super Hornet, the Eurofighter Typhoon, or the Rafale;
If you are a Western-aligned nation but aren't that wealthy, you will probably buy a used fighter, like used F-16's, or get a armed version of a high end advanced jet trainer;
If you aren't a Western-aligned nation but is fairly wealthy, you probably won't have access to Gripen anyways due to its American content, and thus would pick something like the Rafale or a Russian offering;
If you aren't a Western-aligned nation but don't have a lot of cash, you can forget about Gripen anyways, and would probably buy a Russian or a Chinese fighter instead

This is not a good area of the market to be in. Too expensive to be the value option, too much American content to be a good non-aligned offering, and too little capability when measured against other aircraft available. Literally, it's too big for the little kids, too little for the big kids.

And it's also going to be late to the market when most customers have already either made their decisions, or the competitors have already matured and had their bugs worked out. Unless your product is absolutely ground breaking (and face it, Gripen E isn't), it's not going to sell well.
 
rheinwaldner
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Mon Feb 13, 2017 6:03 am

ThePointblank wrote:
Remember the Swiss evaluation that got leaked to the press? That evaluation said that the Gripen was inferior in many ways to the Swiss F/A-18 Hornet fleet in range, performance, and payload. Even the Gripen E wouldn't be a significant upgrade against the F/A-18. Ad the Swiss evaluation also showed that a Gripen E the expected per unit cost of Gripen E was going to be around $96 million per aircraft; the exchange rate has changed since then and it has only gone up.

At least Gripen was so much better than the F-16, that the latter didn´t even make it into the competition. The Gripen has won the competition and the F-16 was not even considered. How does that fit with your stance?
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Mon Feb 13, 2017 7:46 am

rheinwaldner wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
Remember the Swiss evaluation that got leaked to the press? That evaluation said that the Gripen was inferior in many ways to the Swiss F/A-18 Hornet fleet in range, performance, and payload. Even the Gripen E wouldn't be a significant upgrade against the F/A-18. Ad the Swiss evaluation also showed that a Gripen E the expected per unit cost of Gripen E was going to be around $96 million per aircraft; the exchange rate has changed since then and it has only gone up.

At least Gripen was so much better than the F-16, that the latter didn´t even make it into the competition. The Gripen has won the competition and the F-16 was not even considered. How does that fit with your stance?


Both the Eurofighter and the Rafale were judged better on technical merits, and the Gripen failed in meeting the minimum requirements. All of the other contenders could meet all 6 of the evaluation criteria. Gripen could only meet 5:
https://www.scribd.com/doc/81390363/Swi ... the-Rafale

And the Gripen was so superior it LOST when it went to a referendum to approve the budget to buy it... now the Swiss are starting again back at square one with a decision to be made in 2020, and deliveries commencing in 2025...

Basically, it means Eurofighter is going to be out of the picture (it goes out of production by 2023), but Rafale is still available, and LM has indicated interest in actually bidding, so the F-35 comes into play.
 
art
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Mon Feb 13, 2017 8:20 am

ThePointblank wrote:
This is not a good area of the market to be in. Too expensive to be the value option, too much American content to be a good non-aligned offering, and too little capability when measured against other aircraft available. Literally, it's too big for the little kids, too little for the big kids.

And it's also going to be late to the market when most customers have already either made their decisions, or the competitors have already matured and had their bugs worked out. Unless your product is absolutely ground breaking (and face it, Gripen E isn't), it's not going to sell well.


F-16 sold in thousands because it was a very good product with great economies of scale, came from the USA and had a very wide range of competitively priced weapons. Did that make it too big for the little kids, too little for the big kids? Was it too little for the USAF or too big for countries with small budgets and air forces?

I don't think Gripen + is going to sell 500+ but unlike you I do expect quite a few countries to find it affordable where F-35 or western twins would be out of the question for cost reasons. Many of those countries will not want to buy Russian or Chinese materiel. Additionally (unlike the F-16) the aircraft is guaranteed to be actively developed for at least another 15+ years due to being the mainstay of the manufacturing country's air force.

So overall I see Gripen E as a better choice for Made in India than F-16.

ThePointblank wrote:
And the Gripen was so superior it LOST when it went to a referendum to approve the budget to buy it... now the Swiss are starting again back at square one with a decision to be made in 2020, and deliveries commencing in 2025...


I don't think the choice of aircraft had much to do with it. It was not the Swiss public voting on the qualities of the fighter concerned. I think it was a rejection by some on the grounds that they did not want any fighter to be purchased, by others that a new fighter was too costly, by some others that it was not French in origin.
 
YIMBY
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:17 am

ThePointblank wrote:

The F-16's sales record shows. Since 2000, new F-16's have been sold to Israel, Chile, Morocco, Iraq, Oman, Poland, Singapore, Turkey, Egypt, Greece, Pakistan, and the UAE. Used F-16's have been sold to even more nations.

Most of those are additional orders for air forces that have been flying F-16's for decades.
ThePointblank wrote:

Remember the Swiss evaluation that got leaked to the press? That evaluation said that the Gripen was inferior in many ways to the Swiss F/A-18 Hornet fleet in range, performance, and payload. Even the Gripen E wouldn't be a significant upgrade against the F/A-18. Ad the Swiss evaluation also showed that a Gripen E the expected per unit cost of Gripen E was going to be around $96 million per aircraft; the exchange rate has changed since then and it has only gone up.

I agree that Hornet is more powerful than Gripen, so what. For some purpose Gripen may be better, though.
ThePointblank wrote:


And the F-35 price decreases: Have you been paying attention to the other threads here? Here's a graphic:

First time a F-35A's fly away price has dropped below $100 million... and it will continue to fall as the production rate ramps up.


The price and cost are not the same. The price will include a share of development and fixed costs as well as profits.

Any new country buying new fighters will not only buy a set of fighters, but also maintenance, training, spare parts, weapons etc. There will always be some fixed costs for a new type of plane. The additional costs are substantial. It depends on the call of tenders what is to be included in the initial bid, and that varies a lot bid by bid, so you cannot compare different bids without knowing exactly their contents. Some countries prefer to have an all-inclusive price, with no surprises in the future. Some air forces prefer to publish a minimum price to have the deal passed through the parliament, and the next parliament will be faced with additional billions to make the planes flyable.

ThePointblank wrote:



The Gripen E is occupying an unusual sector of the fighter jet market where it's going to get squeezed from multiple directions:

If you are a wealthy Western-aligned nation and have long term defence ties to the US, you are probably going to buy the F-35;
If you are a wealthy Western-aligned nation and don't have access to the F-35, you are probably going to buy something like the F-16, F-15E, the F/A-18 Super Hornet, the Eurofighter Typhoon, or the Rafale;
If you are a Western-aligned nation but aren't that wealthy, you will probably buy a used fighter, like used F-16's, or get a armed version of a high end advanced jet trainer;
If you aren't a Western-aligned nation but is fairly wealthy, you probably won't have access to Gripen anyways due to its American content, and thus would pick something like the Rafale or a Russian offering;
If you aren't a Western-aligned nation but don't have a lot of cash, you can forget about Gripen anyways, and would probably buy a Russian or a Chinese fighter instead

This is not a good area of the market to be in. Too expensive to be the value option, too much American content to be a good non-aligned offering, and too little capability when measured against other aircraft available. Literally, it's too big for the little kids, too little for the big kids.

And it's also going to be late to the market when most customers have already either made their decisions, or the competitors have already matured and had their bugs worked out. Unless your product is absolutely ground breaking (and face it, Gripen E isn't), it's not going to sell well.


I have never hidden my opinion that developing Gripen was not the brightest idea, but we have it here. Neither Draken nor Viggen sold substantially, so it would be no surprise that Gripen does not sell well. It was just the Swedish tradition to build all their weapons, maybe being afraid that in the case of a prolonged conflict the foreign producers may not be able to deliver spare parts etc. Even Finland that is much more jealous of its military neutrality bought Hornet from the US, while the Swedish were developing Gripen (that was too late to bid anyway). In any case Gripen is much more capable than I ever dared to believe. It might have its chance, though, if and when F-15, F-16, F-18 and Typhoon get out of production which will happen in the next five years for most of them and the production of Gripen somehow survives.

Coming back to the original topic, for India it may be better choosing Gripen over F-16, as the latter is obsolating and will be out of production in the US and the former gives more possibilities for future development, though I am not sure that it is the best, but India anyway wants and can have several fighter types from several sources which is not that bad idea.
 
anshabhi
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Mon Feb 13, 2017 9:33 am

ThePointblank wrote:
Both the Eurofighter and the Rafale were judged better on technical merits, and the Gripen failed in meeting the minimum requirements. All of the other contenders could meet all 6 of the evaluation criteria. Gripen could only meet 5:
https://www.scribd.com/doc/81390363/Swi ... the-Rafale


Well you need to keep in mind that it happened in 2011 with Gripen NG. Today Gripen is offering Gripen E, a brand new upgraded fighter launched in August last year. India deal is very much the make or break deal for Gripen. Even Sweden doesn't seems confident enough to invest in developing it further without significant orders.
But this is also an opportunity for India. Saab is promising to build Indian facilities better than Swedish facilities. India will also have a large scope to hone its abilities with a top class fighter, with a massive scope for development.
This is Saab's official statement on why it's better than LM's offer:
http://saab.com/about-saab/sites/asia/a ... -in-india/

Also, while Saab is rapidly giving anti-F16 statements, LM lastly only said that it's reconsidering India offer with Trump.
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VSMUT
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:01 am

ThePointblank wrote:
The Gripen and the Gripen E has lost out every time they were directly offered against the F-16.


Keep dreaming Mr. PR rep. It lost out to the Gripen in the Czech Republic, Hungary, South Africa, Botswana, Thailand, Brazil and even Sweden.

Your hypothesis also completely ignores the primary selling point of US fighter jets since the end of the cold war, political pressure.

ThePointblank wrote:
The F-16 has had a better radar, more weapons, and more systems integrated into the aircraft, and has done for much longer. It's also going to be much cheaper too; Brazil is paying $45 billion USD for 36 Gripen E's. That's an average per unit cost of $125 million USD per aircraft. Don't need to tell you that even a F-35 is cheaper than that, and the F-35 will beat the Gripen E any day.


You are forgetting the single biggest advantage of the Gripen vs the F-16 (or F-35), one that completely outweighs any other "advantage":

The Gripen is not made in Donald Trumpistan. Tomorrow the POTUS might as well just slap travel restrictions down on India. Who knows? He certainly demonstrated his resolve to do so. The US can't be trusted.

:smile:
 
rheinwaldner
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:09 am

ThePointblank wrote:
Both the Eurofighter and the Rafale were judged better on technical merits, and the Gripen failed in meeting the minimum requirements. All of the other contenders could meet all 6 of the evaluation criteria. Gripen could only meet 5:
https://www.scribd.com/doc/81390363/Swi ... the-Rafale

And the Gripen was so superior it LOST when it went to a referendum to approve the budget to buy it... now the Swiss are starting again back at square one with a decision to be made in 2020, and deliveries commencing in 2025...

Basically, it means Eurofighter is going to be out of the picture (it goes out of production by 2023), but Rafale is still available, and LM has indicated interest in actually bidding, so the F-35 comes into play.

The Swiss evaluation is a bad example to promote the F-16. As there is nowhere the F-16 mentioned, we can say that regardless the how bad the Gripen was, it was still better than the F-16. It was also the old Gripen C that participated in the evaluation. So the Gripen E should enlarge the gap over the F-16 from a Swiss perspective.

For the planned budget the requested number would not have been possible with any other plane than the Gripen. So the question was 20 or so Rafales against the 32 Gripens.

And true, the people voted against Gripen, but not for the reasons you mention (the campaign was unlucky in many ways, including a Trump-style insult against women from the defence minister, like this "How many more than 30 year old commodities do you have in your household, beside the wife?").

Eurofighters could also be used ones from Germany (there was a headline recently about such a German offer).

F-35 is not a good fit IMO (we need no bombers). With the high price for the F-35 you buy pay many things Switzerland doesn't need.
 
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Mon Feb 13, 2017 3:48 pm

"The fighter market in India has further heated up ever since the Indian Navy released an RFI in January, 2017 to acquire about 3 squadrons of carrier-borne fighters."
The navy’s RFI is expected to receive response from Saab, Boeing and Dassault Aviation, (Gripen M, marinised E), (F-18 SH) and Rafale.
I would´t put my money on the F-18 here.... adding another type to the force.
Also,LM,s offer to transfer the Texas manufactoring line to india, is a line who is to get cold by the end of 2017,and a workforce who is to be absorbed by the upramp of the F-35...
"If India opts for hundreds of these aircraft, the company promises to make India the sole manufacturer of these aircraft by shifting its ‘Texas’ manufacturing line to India. Reservations however exist within the air force in choosing a fighter which is being replaced by fifth-generation fighters by its primary user – USAF."
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anshabhi
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:35 pm

Indian Aerospace Defense News, a leading website whose predictions about India's defense deals have mostly been true believes that Gripen is the front runner for both Air Force & Navy with its no strings attached T-O-T and Make in India offers.

http://iadnews.in/2017/02/with-indian-n ... ve-offers/

http://iadnews.in/2017/02/iaf-floats-rf ... id-ground/
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Mon Feb 13, 2017 5:07 pm

anshabhi wrote:
Indian Aerospace Defense News, a leading website whose predictions about India's defense deals have mostly been true believes that Gripen is the front runner for both Air Force & Navy with its no strings attached T-O-T and Make in India offers.

http://iadnews.in/2017/02/with-indian-n ... ve-offers/

http://iadnews.in/2017/02/iaf-floats-rf ... id-ground/

If you put it all together and to use a bit of common sense,Gripen is the best choise. :thumbsup:
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ThePointblank
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Tue Feb 14, 2017 4:14 am

rheinwaldner wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
Both the Eurofighter and the Rafale were judged better on technical merits, and the Gripen failed in meeting the minimum requirements. All of the other contenders could meet all 6 of the evaluation criteria. Gripen could only meet 5:
https://www.scribd.com/doc/81390363/Swi ... the-Rafale

And the Gripen was so superior it LOST when it went to a referendum to approve the budget to buy it... now the Swiss are starting again back at square one with a decision to be made in 2020, and deliveries commencing in 2025...

Basically, it means Eurofighter is going to be out of the picture (it goes out of production by 2023), but Rafale is still available, and LM has indicated interest in actually bidding, so the F-35 comes into play.

The Swiss evaluation is a bad example to promote the F-16. As there is nowhere the F-16 mentioned, we can say that regardless the how bad the Gripen was, it was still better than the F-16. It was also the old Gripen C that participated in the evaluation. So the Gripen E should enlarge the gap over the F-16 from a Swiss perspective.

For the planned budget the requested number would not have been possible with any other plane than the Gripen. So the question was 20 or so Rafales against the 32 Gripens.

And true, the people voted against Gripen, but not for the reasons you mention (the campaign was unlucky in many ways, including a Trump-style insult against women from the defence minister, like this "How many more than 30 year old commodities do you have in your household, beside the wife?").

Eurofighters could also be used ones from Germany (there was a headline recently about such a German offer).

F-35 is not a good fit IMO (we need no bombers). With the high price for the F-35 you buy pay many things Switzerland doesn't need.

1. The comparisons was between the Gripen and the F/A-18; the F/A-18 is considered by many to be a very strong equal to the F-16 in combat.
2. The Swiss also evaluated the expected performance of the Gripen E against the F/A-18; the Gripen E was labeled as MS21 in the evaluation, and they still found the expected performance to be inferior; the report specifically states "The Gripen MS21 is still not able to compete with the two other candidates. It never reaches the "Meet Minimum Expected Capabilities" in all types of missions." They also further noted that the MS21’s” notional performance as “insufficient to get the air superiority against future threats (2015+)”.
3. The F-35 would be a very strong contender in a potential Swiss bid; for one, the costs are only going down, and the F-35B would be a excellent F/A-18 replacement as well. It would be the only option capable of STOVL, which allows the Swiss to greatly enhance their ability to operate from dispersed air strips.
 
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Tue Feb 14, 2017 7:03 am

ThePointblank wrote:
1. The comparisons was between the Gripen and the F/A-18; the F/A-18 is considered by many to be a very strong equal to the F-16 in combat.
2. The Swiss also evaluated the expected performance of the Gripen E against the F/A-18; the Gripen E was labeled as MS21 in the evaluation, and they still found the expected performance to be inferior; the report specifically states "The Gripen MS21 is still not able to compete with the two other candidates. It never reaches the "Meet Minimum Expected Capabilities" in all types of missions." They also further noted that the MS21’s” notional performance as “insufficient to get the air superiority against future threats (2015+)”.
3. The F-35 would be a very strong contender in a potential Swiss bid; for one, the costs are only going down, and the F-35B would be a excellent F/A-18 replacement as well. It would be the only option capable of STOVL, which allows the Swiss to greatly enhance their ability to operate from dispersed air strips.


1. The F-16 clearly lost in the evaluation when the F/A-18 was selected. So it was never a "strong equal" in Switzerland. You are the one, who brought Switzerland into the picture when the question was Gripen vs. F-16. A very bad example, because the Gripen has "beaten" the unconsidered F-16 in that evaluation in any aspect. Or do you think, the F-16 was not considered because it was too good? No, the F-16 is even the only outgunned offering from the 80/90 evaluation, that did not reenter the competition for F-5 replacement 15 years later.
2. The Gripen absolutely met the minimum requirements. Especially it was "the best capability for the price". The Gripen won exactly because of the "buck for money" argument you seem to ignore...
3. What is a dispersed air strip? Switzerland has only air bases with long runways. Beside those there exist three times more defunct but fully fledged Cold War air bases, all with long runways.
 
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Tue Feb 14, 2017 8:35 am

rheinwaldner wrote:
ThePointblank wrote:
1. The comparisons was between the Gripen and the F/A-18; the F/A-18 is considered by many to be a very strong equal to the F-16 in combat.
2. The Swiss also evaluated the expected performance of the Gripen E against the F/A-18; the Gripen E was labeled as MS21 in the evaluation, and they still found the expected performance to be inferior; the report specifically states "The Gripen MS21 is still not able to compete with the two other candidates. It never reaches the "Meet Minimum Expected Capabilities" in all types of missions." They also further noted that the MS21’s” notional performance as “insufficient to get the air superiority against future threats (2015+)”.
3. The F-35 would be a very strong contender in a potential Swiss bid; for one, the costs are only going down, and the F-35B would be a excellent F/A-18 replacement as well. It would be the only option capable of STOVL, which allows the Swiss to greatly enhance their ability to operate from dispersed air strips.


1. The F-16 clearly lost in the evaluation when the F/A-18 was selected. So it was never a "strong equal" in Switzerland. You are the one, who brought Switzerland into the picture when the question was Gripen vs. F-16. A very bad example, because the Gripen has "beaten" the unconsidered F-16 in that evaluation in any aspect. Or do you think, the F-16 was not considered because it was too good? No, the F-16 is even the only outgunned offering from the 80/90 evaluation, that did not reenter the competition for F-5 replacement 15 years later.
2. The Gripen absolutely met the minimum requirements. Especially it was "the best capability for the price". The Gripen won exactly because of the "buck for money" argument you seem to ignore...
3. What is a dispersed air strip? Switzerland has only air bases with long runways. Beside those there exist three times more defunct but fully fledged Cold War air bases, all with long runways.


1. Most nations that have considered the F/A-18 and the F-16 consider the two to be close equals. Many pilots also consider the F-16 and the F/A-18 to be fairly equal aircraft, with the F-16 having some advantages and disadvantages verses the F/A-18. Also, the F-16 has been upgraded and developed more than the F/A-18; witness the many variants of the F-16 that are out there, including the extremely advanced F-16 Block 60's that the UAE has.

2. No it didn't. Second page in the summary, 6th paragraph:

The Gripen has been rated unsatisfactory in the accomplishment for Air-to-Air and Strike missions. In the Recce domain, the Gripen was assessed satisfactory with comments. The Gripen obtained the 3rd rank in the evaluation of the effectiveness.


And fourth page, last sentence:

For air policing missions, the Gripen was the only candidate which did not achieve the threshold of "meets minimum expected capabilities".


There's lots more where that came from, from that report.

I got no clue what report you are actually reading, but the entire evaluation report does not give a ringing endorsement of the Gripen. It basically says, yes, we COULD make the Gripen work, but we probably won't be able to perform certain missions either at all, or with a good likelihood of success. The fact that the Swiss Air Force hardly lifted a finger in trying to convince the voters that the Gripen was a good aircraft and thus they needed the aircraft in the referendum shows that at the very best; they were ambivalent about the Gripen. And this referendum happened after another Swiss referendum on keeping conscription and bucks a trend for public support for the military.

3. The Swiss have highways that they occasionally use as air strips, complete with hardened aircraft shelters built next to them. And when the Swiss bought the F/A-18, they noted that they picked the F/A-18 because among other things, it was originally designed for carrier-based operations.
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Tue Feb 14, 2017 9:35 am

anshabhi wrote:
Indian Aerospace Defense News, a leading website whose predictions about India's defense deals have mostly been true believes that Gripen is the front runner for both Air Force & Navy with its no strings attached T-O-T and Make in India offers.


Bwaaa haaa haaaa haaa! IADN whose predictions have mostly been true! Sure! The world sure must look different from La La Land hain? :lol:

BTW What is this "Make in India"? Licensed manufacture of foreign designs? That has been happening since the late 1940's no?

So what is this "Make In India"? How is it different exactly from what had been going on all these years? Can you elaborate @anshabhi?
L' Esprit de Mai 68
 
anshabhi
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Tue Feb 14, 2017 11:31 am

BawliBooch wrote:

No one is inviting you to read IADN's views. If you want then do otherwise don't.
and why don't you listen? Read the following link first: http://saab.com/about-saab/sites/asia/a ... -in-india/
Save your taste and innocent souls! http://www.chooseveg.com
 
art
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Tue Feb 14, 2017 12:44 pm

[quote="BawliBooch]
BTW What is this "Make in India"? Licensed manufacture of foreign designs? That has been happening since the late 1940's no?[/quote]

Yes, what has changed? Is it more that it is a shift from assembly to manufacturing as many parts as possible in India? Or is it just re-branding what was happening before, with the difference that state-owned enterprises will no longer always get the contrqct?
 
rheinwaldner
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Tue Feb 14, 2017 1:04 pm

Dear Pointblank

You are wrong in so many levels, that I would like to grough through the points one by one...


ThePointblank wrote:
Most nations that have considered the F/A-18 and the F-16 consider the two to be close equals.

Initially you did not talk generally, when you said, that the Gripen never came out ahead of the F-16. Dont do it now.

ThePointblank wrote:
No it didn't. Second page in the summary, 6th paragraph:

As I have said before: the fly off was with the Gripen C. Both mentioned quotes are not applicable for the Gripen E. Please show the intelectual honesty to not portray the feedback for one as feedback for the other.

ThePointblank wrote:
It basically says, yes, we COULD make the Gripen work, but we probably won't be able to perform certain missions either at all

Wrong for Gripen E

ThePointblank wrote:
The fact that the Swiss Air Force hardly lifted a finger in trying to convince the voters that the Gripen was a good aircraft and thus they needed the aircraft in the referendum shows that at the very best

Wrong, I personally joined when the Patrouille Suisse Leader had a speech in our company where he strongly praised the Gripen.

ThePointblank wrote:
they were ambivalent about the Gripen. And this referendum happened after another Swiss referendum on keeping conscription and bucks a trend for public support for the military.

Wrong, as I have said the referendum was lost for other reasons. In fact, that the offer was from "small too" Sweden and that it was a budget solution contributed that there were not even more no-voters.

ThePointblank wrote:
The Swiss have highways that they occasionally use as air strips

This concept has been given up more than 20 years ago.

ThePointblank wrote:
, complete with hardened aircraft shelters built next to them.

There never has been a hardened aircraft shelter beside a Swiss autobahn, I can say because know all of these places.

And - the last point, even when functional, the Swiss Autobahn runways did not require any more STOVL than the numerous air bases that housed the 400+ Jets in the 60's and 70's...
 
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BawliBooch
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:09 pm

anshabhi wrote:
No one is inviting you to read IADN's views. If you want then do otherwise don't.
and why don't you listen? Read the following link first: http://saab.com/about-saab/sites/asia/a ... -in-india/


YOU posted a link to that BS IADN site as "evidence" to back up your laughable claims. Just FYI.

And none of the links you post actually assert anything of the sort you claim. You seem to be hunting for links to support an assertion after posting. Seems like a well established pattern!

art wrote:
Yes, what has changed? Is it more that it is a shift from assembly to manufacturing as many parts as possible in India? Or is it just re-branding what was happening before, with the difference that state-owned enterprises will no longer always get the contrqct?


The license manufacture of aircraft in India has ALWAYS followed a path of increasing indigenisation, starting from the days of the Mig-21 in the 60's. The first batch of Mig-21's in '66 was mostly assembled out of CKD kits. By the 80's, the indigenous component had increased to over 90%. Ditto for the other Russian, British and French aircraft like Gnats, Jaguars and so on. Infact most of the crashes of the Mig-21 happened due to flameouts and on aircraft fitted with a version of engines manufactured locally (R-25-77). So "Make In India" is hardly a new concept, but a rehash of the old idea of indigenous production.

Local License manufacture was ALWAYS the preferred route to enter the Indian arms market. Especially because the offset clauses introduced in defense deals around 2005.

So on one hand, Make in India is a branding/hyping exercise of a practice that has been on for decades. This has been Dear Leader's SOP from back when he was CM of Gujarat. "Vibrant Gujarat" branding exercise was used to cover for doling out state properties like the Mundhra port to the cronies like the Adani Group. That is EXACTLY what he is doing now on a bigger scale.

Another difference is that state-owned enterprise HAL no longer is in the running. Instead corporate cronies who invested heavily in Dear Leader's election campaign are being given sweetheart contracts at jacked up rates.

The Rafale deal was stuck when the previous Govt held firm on offset clauses and the share of work that would be done by HAL. Somehow Rafale has now become the favorite ever since Dassault signed up with Ambani Group in Sep 2016! Earlier there was transparency wrt what the amount and nature of offsets would be. Now there is complete silence with RTI requests going unanswered.

Is the Gripen a good aircraft? I am not technically qualified to make that assesment. But I am sure it has some positives. Were established procedures bypassed to benefit cronies using "Make In India" as a cover? Yes! And that is the crux of the issue! Gross corruption remains the big story in India.

Mark this post! The Dassault & Saab deals are going to bring down this govt!
L' Esprit de Mai 68
 
anshabhi
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Tue Feb 14, 2017 2:26 pm

Yeah you want India to rely on an organization which could not even make a capable jet in 33 years. Even Navy rejected it and IAF knows its not enough.

IAF is going to retire 12 squadrons over next 4 years.
And Tejas isn't replacing any of them, neither is any other HAL Aircraft.

And some good news for you- Saab is partnering with Adani and India will make a big announcement before 18 February.
Save your taste and innocent souls! http://www.chooseveg.com
 
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Balerit
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Tue Feb 14, 2017 8:46 pm

The Gripen is a very capable aircraft and will outperform a lot of the big boys. The F16 is old and outdated, even our old SAAF Cheetah's nailed them 2-0 a couple of years ago. Here is a summary of our Gripens from 2004:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjZw9-6uZDSAhVI0WMKHaYICgYQFggbMAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.saairforce.co.za%2Fseed%2Fpublic%2Ffiles%2Faircraft_files%2F20%2FInside%2520the%2520Gripen.pdf&usg=AFQjCNEC_GCi_Rv3K2rNOjC_Hfs_Q4xUoA&sig2=Qj6OHExndz1Hc0dFvey1AA
Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (retired).
 
ThePointblank
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Wed Feb 15, 2017 3:12 am

rheinwaldner wrote:
Initially you did not talk generally, when you said, that the Gripen never came out ahead of the F-16. Dont do it now.


Name a customer that has chosen the Gripen over the F-16 when both were offered.

rheinwaldner wrote:
As I have said before: the fly off was with the Gripen C. Both mentioned quotes are not applicable for the Gripen E. Please show the intelectual honesty to not portray the feedback for one as feedback for the other.

Pages 12 and onwards resolves that. It evaluates all of the options, with their planned upgrades, which includes the Gripen E, which is labeled MS21. In fact, it says " The Gripen MS21 is still not able to compete with the other two candidates. It never reaches the 'Meets Minimum Expected Capabilities' in all types of missions."


rheinwaldner wrote:
Wrong for Gripen E

Page 13:

The likelihood of the Gripen MS21 of being unable to carry out with success AP (Air Policing) missions is considered to be somewhat possible.


If the Gripen MS21 has been chosen, OT&E Flight Tests in Air Policing domain should be conducted in Switzerland to assess the real effectiveness of the high importance Mission Essential Tasks.


And the rest of the report from pages 13 to 22 all read like that; all very critical of the Gripen E's ability to meet Swiss needs. It points out that the Rafale overall would meet all of the requirements easily, while the Eurofighter would be a somewhat distant second. The Gripen and Gripen E are a very distant third.
 
rheinwaldner
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Wed Feb 15, 2017 5:55 am

ThePointblank wrote:
Name a customer that has chosen the Gripen over the F-16 when both were offered.

The F-16 was offered in any case, when the Gripen was selected (the buyers could have gone to LM and order F-16s instead). The fact that they didn't even invite LM to offer puts the F-16 automatically at the bottom of the ranking. The ranking goes 1: selected aircraft, 2-n: evaluated aircraft, 3: excluded from the beginning.
So in any case of a Gripen win, both were offered (in the sense LM would not have denied a sale if asked) and the Gripen was chosen.

ThePointblank wrote:
Pages 12 and onwards resolves that. It evaluates all of the options, with their planned upgrades, which includes the Gripen E, which is labeled MS21. In fact, it says " The Gripen MS21 is still not able to compete with the other two candidates. It never reaches the 'Meets Minimum Expected Capabilities' in all types of missions."

This time you are right about Gripen E. But the evaluation report from 2009 is not the final one. In 2011 a fourth RFP was sent to the vendors, and the resulting offers lead to the Gripen selection in Nov 2011. We don't know neither the exact factors that resulted in Gripen overtaking the others nor the final score. The quotes you have found, do not reflect the final conclusion.

E.g. here are the overall score of the Gripen mentioned as marginally satisfactorily (operational effectiveness), satisfactorily (operational suitability) and satisfactorily (collaboration):
https://www.parlament.ch/centers/docume ... 8-20-d.pdf

In this official paper there is a statement, that the Radar and the Meteor missile put the Gripen solidly ahead of the F/A-18:
http://www.news.admin.ch/NSBSubscriber/ ... /29345.pdf

A good, official overview over the evaluation and the buy overall is this one:
https://www.newsd.admin.ch/newsd/messag ... /28582.pdf

(Sorry, all links in German)...
 
art
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Re: Saab offers Gripen to be made in India

Wed Feb 15, 2017 7:30 am

BawliBooch wrote:
Saab signing up with Adani is really no surprise though they were considering Mahindra which atleast has some experience in aviation. Adani Group has zero experience in defense manufacturing or aerospace. The only reason Adani is chosen because thats what it takes to swing a deal in India. You got to know one of Dear Leader's cronies. And when it comes to cronies they dont get bigger than Adani.


How would this work? It would be a bit like setting up a software project with a partner company that has no experience of computers or programming. Would Adani lure aviation designers, engineers and assembly workers from other companies? Would SAAB train assembly workers? Boeing set up a second 787 production facility and I think trained most of the workforce from scratch.

If F-16 were chosen, who would LM be working with?

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