TheSonntag
Topic Author
Posts: 4362
Joined: Wed Jun 15, 2005 7:23 pm

Apollo 1: 50 years ago

Fri Jan 27, 2017 11:29 am

50 years ago in 1967 Gus Grissom, Ed White and Roger Chaffee died in a fire at the pad.

A time to remember
 
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Seabear
Posts: 43
Joined: Fri Jun 17, 2016 3:05 pm

Re: Apollo 1: 50 years ago

Fri Jan 27, 2017 10:25 pm

Apparently not. I've yet to see any mention of this tragic event anywhere. Our space program has become a forgotten relic.
 
WIederling
Posts: 3247
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Apollo 1: 50 years ago

Fri Jan 27, 2017 11:44 pm

Seabear wrote:
Apparently not. I've yet to see any mention of this tragic event anywhere. Our space program has become a forgotten relic.


It is definitely not forgotten and it was quite the shock at the time. ( for a rather tech savvy boy of ten years at the time.)
My perfect 12th birthday gift was the moon landing that culminated this project.
Still have 2 of the "Sonderausgabe" from the "Hamburger Abendblatt" archived.
Everybody here was in on it and cheering on. It was a "good achievement".
Murphy is an optimist
 
SeJoWa
Posts: 451
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 6:11 pm

Re: Apollo 1: 50 years ago

Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:59 pm

The most prestigious German language newspaper (hailing from Switzerland) wrote an article:
https://www.nzz.ch/panorama/50-jahresta ... -ld.142106

I can't find the NYT article now, but two snippets:
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2017/01 ... .html?_r=0
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/2017/01 ... orial.html

ars technica obviously has an article:
https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/01 ... 7-seconds/

A good friend of mine is an Apollo program expert - I've learned loads just by listening, and these names are etched in my mind.
 
LMP737
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Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 4:06 pm

Re: Apollo 1: 50 years ago

Sun Jan 29, 2017 3:49 am

It's been said if the Apollo 1 accident had not occurred an accident most likely would have happened in space. With disastrous consequences for the program. Sad that three astronauts died though.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
radargeek
Posts: 11
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Re: Apollo 1: 50 years ago

Sat Feb 04, 2017 6:56 am

LMP737 wrote:
It's been said if the Apollo 1 accident had not occurred an accident most likely would have happened in space. With disastrous consequences for the program. Sad that three astronauts died though.


And to think where the space program would be today had the necessary funding-effort been continued as Jack Kennedy undoubtedly thought it would be.
 
WIederling
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Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Apollo 1: 50 years ago

Sat Feb 04, 2017 9:56 am

Combi of JFK having an urgent need to contain and defang his military
and the monomanic drive of von Braun to go into space and stay there.

With JFK having been assassinated and von Braun being demoted
Apollo ended in a sputter and the next project, the Shuttle Orbiter
and Launch System gobbled money to no end while having no real direction
due to its schizoid objectives.

today we are back to "Dr. Seltsam and ... " more than anything else.
gun wielding clowns at the helm.
Murphy is an optimist
 
LightningZ71
Posts: 201
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Re: Apollo 1: 50 years ago

Sat Feb 04, 2017 6:55 pm

Actually, Apollo was more about refining ICBM tech and developing the base tech needed to weaponize space. What killed it were the various treaties that basically outlawed armed space platforms. After that, it was all about expensive espionage systems and how to main them. Enter the space shuttle...
 
WIederling
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Re: Apollo 1: 50 years ago

Sun Feb 05, 2017 11:49 am

LightningZ71 wrote:
Actually, Apollo was more about refining ICBM tech and developing the base tech needed to weaponize space. What killed it were the various treaties that basically outlawed armed space platforms. After that, it was all about expensive espionage systems and how to main them. Enter the space shuttle...


Early boosters were military derived.
But ICBM tech took a completely different path at the time.
Solids and due to continuously shrinking warheads much smaller
than the human rated launchers.
Murphy is an optimist
 
LightningZ71
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Re: Apollo 1: 50 years ago

Sun Feb 05, 2017 1:54 pm

Absolutely, they use different fuels out of neccessity, and didn't need to scale up as warheads shrank. But, think back to when the Apollo program was originally approved, warheads still weren't very compact yet (though it was projected to be possible to shrink further). Also, the planned space platforms were also quite large, requiring very heavy lift capabilities.

The 60s changed a lot of things, not the least of which was the arms race. While science and public interest funded the already developed Saturn V and Apollo capsules to continue production for a while, the real money was in DOD and espionage circles. That money paid for the shuttle and sold it to the public, which lost interest in Apollo.

The cold war really pushed the space program like nobody's business, but it also heavily shaped it. They DOD controlled most of the money and, as a result, made a lot of the calls.
 
TheSonntag
Topic Author
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Re: Apollo 1: 50 years ago

Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:10 am

I think, however, that the future is now looking a bit better than, lets say, in the late 2000s. SpaceX and other contenders really made progress, so that we will get private enterprises in space sooner or later.

The SLS, despite all debates, is developed and will fly next year. So there is a Saturn-V style rocket available again, not to mention the SpaceX concepts. The moon, if wanted, and even Mars is getting in reach. The Chinese are making progress as well.
 
WIederling
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Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Apollo 1: 50 years ago

Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:09 pm

LightningZ71 wrote:
The cold war really pushed the space program like nobody's business, but it also heavily shaped it. They DOD controlled most of the money and, as a result, made a lot of the calls.


How many military/secret missions did the shuttles ever do?

Things just did not develop in the way that was envisioned and accordingly compromised the shuttle design.

What still irks me to no end is that both crashes were due to NASA loosing touch to their primary goal.
PR, "looking good" was of higher importance than getting visible tech issues fixed from listening to
qualified people down in the hierarchy.
Murphy is an optimist
 
LightningZ71
Posts: 201
Joined: Sat Aug 27, 2016 10:59 pm

Re: Apollo 1: 50 years ago

Tue Feb 07, 2017 7:32 pm

I agree with you about the NASA shuttle crashes. No denying that.

Excluding the ISS construction missions, fully 1/3rd of the shuttle missions had at least one significant military component. From spy satellite launches, DOD research projects, etc. The shuttle got a lot of DOD usage (this includes NRO projects as well).
 
WIederling
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Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Apollo 1: 50 years ago

Wed Feb 08, 2017 8:00 am

LightningZ71 wrote:
The shuttle got a lot of DOD usage (this includes NRO projects as well).


How much of the MIL influenced capabilities were ever used ?
Murphy is an optimist
 
zanl188
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Re: Apollo 1: 50 years ago

Wed Feb 08, 2017 9:26 am

WIederling wrote:

How much of the MIL influenced capabilities were ever used ?


It never launched from Vandenberg. Polar orbit launches from Vandenberg needed an abort once around cross range landing capability. This drove shuttle designers to using the big, heavy, delta wing. Never used or needed.
Legal considerations provided by: Dewey, Cheatum, and Howe
 
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moo
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Re: Apollo 1: 50 years ago

Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:21 am

A good read on the birth of the Shuttle and just how important the military component was to it getting built is Rowland Whites 'Into the Black'...
 
LMP737
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Re: Apollo 1: 50 years ago

Thu Feb 09, 2017 1:44 am

radargeek wrote:

And to think where the space program would be today had the necessary funding-effort been continued as Jack Kennedy undoubtedly thought it would be.


One of those what if scenarios.
Never take financial advice from co-workers.
 
SeJoWa
Posts: 451
Joined: Thu May 18, 2006 6:11 pm

Re: Apollo 1: 50 years ago

Thu Feb 09, 2017 12:08 pm

moo wrote:
A good read on the birth of the Shuttle and just how important the military component was to it getting built is Rowland Whites 'Into the Black'...


Have not quite finished it, but what struck me the most was the enormous complexity of the system, and requisite cost to prepare the Shuttle for a flight. Mind boggling.

It was also an amazing feat of true engineering prowess, but one that should not inspire imitation on the level where concepts are hashed out.

An absolutely riveting book also written by Rowland White is Vulcan 607. Great by-the-minute account of experience and derring do meeting improvisation and dedication to the task, all centered around some magnificent ground and air crews coaxing a veteran but iconic machine to perform one last combat mission. Highly recommended to any aviation buff.
 
prebennorholm
Posts: 6561
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Re: Apollo 1: 50 years ago

Fri Feb 10, 2017 3:30 am

WIederling wrote:
How much of the MIL influenced capabilities were ever used ?

Ten DoD flights were done between 1985 and 1992, from 15th to 52nd flight. Eight of them are still classified.

There is little doubt that a major reason for making the Shuttle was the ability to resupply the very heavy and expensive spy satellites with fuel, new film rolls, film development chemicals and such. Advances in digital imaging mostly overtook that need. And then came the end of the Cold War and treaty of mutual aerial surveillance flights.

The Shuttle didn't have power to launch those heavy satellites into polar orbit, but from Vandenberg it would have been able to perform resupply missions, and possibly to retrieve out of fuel satellites for servicing and updating on ground.

A side effect of that Shuttle capability became the most fantastic Hubble service visits.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs

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